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(27,293 posts)
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 05:11 PM Apr 2023

Bear captured in Italy after killing Alpine jogger Andrea Papi

Last edited Tue Apr 18, 2023, 06:10 PM - Edit history (1)

Italians were shocked by Andrea Papi's death in early April in the north-eastern region of Trentino-Alto Adige.

Once the bear was identified as a 17-year-old known as JJ4, authorities issued an order for it to be put down.

But the order for the she-bear to be shot on sight was later put on hold and JJ4 has been taken to a wildlife centre. Her fate is yet to be decided.

"We would have liked to kill the bear on the spot," provincial governor Maurizio Fugatti told a press conference, adding it would eventually be put down if a court agreed at a hearing next month.

Andrea Papi was fatally attacked while jogging above the town of Caldes on the slopes of Mt Peller in the Brenta Dolomites, prompting fear and anger in the region. He is the first Italian known to have been killed by a bear in recent years.

The animals are a protected species in Italy, and their population has been increasing in recent years after they were reintroduced to the region two decades ago.



Fucking humans. I hate my species. Why kill a bear for being a bear?
100% on the animal's side. Always.

on edit: Female bear with three cubs. Might have had something to do with her attacking the jogger.

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Bear captured in Italy after killing Alpine jogger Andrea Papi (Original Post) Coventina Apr 2023 OP
"Why kill a bear for being a bear?" Effete Snob Apr 2023 #1
so what if they lose their fear of humans? Coventina Apr 2023 #2
Fuck scientists Effete Snob Apr 2023 #3
No, I said fuck humans, by which I mean human arrogance Coventina Apr 2023 #4
I'm sorry Effete Snob Apr 2023 #6
Cheers, then. Coventina Apr 2023 #7
Gosh that's not my experience with biologists and game wardens at all. MontanaMama Apr 2023 #25
Interesting Zeitghost Apr 2023 #17
All animals. n/t Coventina Apr 2023 #19
So an bug's life is then Zeitghost Apr 2023 #20
Depends on the bug. Coventina Apr 2023 #22
It would seem to me that one bug would not be worth more than another Zeitghost Apr 2023 #23
I am not in favor of gunning down children Coventina Apr 2023 #27
I'll state first that I would rather the bear not ... Whiskeytide Apr 2023 #30
Well, I don't own any firearms, and never will. Coventina Apr 2023 #31
Living with bears in my neighborhood MontanaMama Apr 2023 #5
Another article stated it was a female bear with three cubs Coventina Apr 2023 #15
I didn't see that. It MUST have been a factor. MontanaMama Apr 2023 #24
Poor woman. Hortensis Apr 2023 #8
him Effete Snob Apr 2023 #9
Ah, thanks. I didn't read to find out who he's left to grieve him either. nt Hortensis Apr 2023 #11
I think Andrea is the Italian name for Andrew liberal_mama Apr 2023 #16
I have no particular hate against the jogger. Coventina Apr 2023 #10
Bears in the area? MuseRider Apr 2023 #12
Maybe you would if you were afraid to step outside for fear Hortensis Apr 2023 #13
Humans are not entitled to live free from predation. Coventina Apr 2023 #14
:) Gee, that statement sounds like religious-level conviction. Hortensis Apr 2023 #18
Maybe my beliefs do rise to religious conviction, I don't know. Coventina Apr 2023 #21
Not religious, Coventina. Religious-LEVEL conviction, based on faith Hortensis Apr 2023 #26
Yes, humans love revenge. flvegan Apr 2023 #28
This is truly, an amazing thread. Fla_Democrat Apr 2023 #29

Effete Snob

(8,387 posts)
1. "Why kill a bear for being a bear?"
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 05:15 PM
Apr 2023

Because, typically "being a bear" means being afraid of humans.

However, since it is early in the season for them, they are more aggressive than usual.

But once a bear finds out that humans are tasty and easy to take down, they can lose their fear of humans.

It's not about taking "sides". It's unfortunate all the way around.

Do you think biologists who devote their lives to the study and conservation of wildlife have a thing against bears?


Usually, if a bear shows “undesirable behavior,” tries to get food from visitors by getting up on picnic tables or coming into tents, or just shows no fear of humans, the bear will be trapped and either relocated or released onsite, McInnis said.

“This is a form of averse conditioning. To be caught in a trap is not a good experience so a lot of bears can be dissuaded from coming back just simply by trapping them and then letting them go without having to relocate them to somewhere else,” she said.

Trapped bears are collared so they can be tracked. The recently euthanized bear had not been caught before, she said. There have been 40 trap and relocations so far this year in the Smokies.

“Euthanization is never a decision lightly taken here at park. Feeding on human remains is a behavior that once learned, bears learn to repeat. Once that association is made, it’s hard to break. The concern is they would pose a risk to public safety,” McInnis said.

“Also, knowing the contents of a bear’s stomach could provide evidence to help with the law enforcement investigation.”

Mike Pelton, a renowned wildlife biologist who started the first research project on black bears in the Great Smokies in 1968, agrees with bear euthanization if the cause of a human death is unknown.


What the fuck would he know?


Effete Snob

(8,387 posts)
3. Fuck scientists
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 05:19 PM
Apr 2023

I prefer the opinion of people who dedicate their lives to conserving and protecting bears, and not armchair critics.


(27,293 posts)
4. No, I said fuck humans, by which I mean human arrogance
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 05:20 PM
Apr 2023

there's no scientific reason why a human life is more valuable than a bear's life.

In fact, science would probably say the opposite.


Effete Snob

(8,387 posts)
6. I'm sorry
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 05:21 PM
Apr 2023

I mistook your original question for a good faith attempt at conversation.

A mistake I won't make again.

Yeah, park rangers, conservation specialists, wildlife experts.. they hate bears. That's it. You are so much better and more knowledgeable than the people who devote their actual lives to them.


(23,424 posts)
25. Gosh that's not my experience with biologists and game wardens at all.
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 07:59 PM
Apr 2023

And, I work with a ton of them. They value bears and their habitat. Bears are part of what makes my part of the world unique (Rocky Mountain west). I don’t know a warden or biologist who doesn’t bust ass to keep bears out of harms way.


(27,293 posts)
22. Depends on the bug.
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 07:03 PM
Apr 2023

But, seriously, I do not see a bug's live as having any more or less significance than a human's.

Humans have been given every evolutionary advantage to be "better" than bugs, but we've chosen to be pretty awful, collectively.


(3,971 posts)
23. It would seem to me that one bug would not be worth more than another
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 07:28 PM
Apr 2023

I just find it odd that you would find no difference between the front grill of my car, which is unfortunately full of bees (a wonderful little bug) from driving through cherry and almond orchards, and say, the Uvalde school shooting crime scene. To you, the loss of life would be the same, or perhaps biased against the slain children in favor of the bees.

I find that to be an incredibly distasteful position.


(27,293 posts)
27. I am not in favor of gunning down children
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 09:30 PM
Apr 2023

it is in no way equivalent to accidentally killing bees!

I was not implying anything of the kind!

What I am saying, is that humans should be reproducing dramatically less, overall, because we are a stupid and harmful species.

(That allows the sort of shooting to go on and on). We harm ourselves, we harm other species.
Overall, we're garbage to this planet.

Our cruelty just proves it.


(4,473 posts)
30. I'll state first that I would rather the bear not ...
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 11:11 PM
Apr 2023

… be euthanized if there are other options.

But out of curiosity, would you take the life of an animal to protect yourself or your children, assuming it was a situation where there were no other options?


(27,293 posts)
31. Well, I don't own any firearms, and never will.
Wed Apr 19, 2023, 12:15 AM
Apr 2023

If I were faced with an angry bear I would attempt to flee or maybe fight, but I really don't think it would make much difference in the end.

I don't have any children, but I would gladly sacrifice my life to give any loved ones I had with me a chance to escape.


(23,424 posts)
5. Living with bears in my neighborhood
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 05:20 PM
Apr 2023

I wonder if something isn't wrong with this particular bear? Was she injured or sick? 17 years old is not a young bear. Average life span is 10 years but some do live longer than that. I've seen bears that biologists bring into our shop that are 10 or so years old and their teeth are almost worn down to nothing making it difficult for them to secure food and maintain a healthy diet. If this bear is killed, I hope it is done humanely. This is so discouraging. Bears almost always lose when it comes to conflict with humans.


(23,424 posts)
24. I didn't see that. It MUST have been a factor.
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 07:55 PM
Apr 2023

Jeez. Hope those cubs are yearlings or they won’t survive without her. Three mouths plus hers is a lot to feed…mama bears take their jobs seriously. I’m sorry to read all of this.


(58,785 posts)
8. Poor woman.
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 05:31 PM
Apr 2023

I don't understand turning this to an expression of hate against her. Commitment to life and to right to live doesn't apply only to wildlife (any more than it does only to white life), but to finding a way for all to live together as much as possible. Those whose responsibility is to make this possible apparently don't feel that putting this ONE bear among many in a cage OR leaving him free pursue his new taste for human flesh are among the best solutions.

And let's remember, that bear was living free in his environment because of the work of the "fucking people" genuinely committed to protecting wildlife who reintroduced bears to those mountains, and because of the many more who approved that. I'm guessing Andrea was among them, and I don't despise her -- or myself and my children! I honor her for that.

RIP, Andrea.


Effete Snob

(8,387 posts)
9. him
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 05:35 PM
Apr 2023

"Andrea" can be either, but is more typically a male name in Italy, and he is referred to in the story as such.


(1,495 posts)
16. I think Andrea is the Italian name for Andrew
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 06:38 PM
Apr 2023

I like how the names in Italy end in vowels. My favorite is that Giuseppe is the Italian name for Joe!


(34,209 posts)
12. Bears in the area?
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 05:51 PM
Apr 2023

You warn people. I am pretty sure, but do not know absolutely, that people who visit and recreate in that area are told that. If that is the case this jogger was jogging in an area when he knew there were bears and knew it was a risk.

NOT the fault of the bear. It is sad what happened to the jogger but they had to know there were bears there and the risk was their own decision.

Bear wins this fight IMO and should not be put down as long as she is proven healthy.

WE always suppose we are the smartest but WE always make someone else pay when we do dumb things. SMH


(58,785 posts)
13. Maybe you would if you were afraid to step outside for fear
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 05:54 PM
Apr 2023

that one bear among dozens in the area is hunting you and your neighbors ? Instead of avoiding you like the rest?

In very practical terms, wildlife CANNOT be reintroduced into proximity to humans without protecting the lives of both. Support for it will vanish if it requires willingness in people to possibly feed...their children, for instance, to the cause instead of yes votes and donations of tax dollars.

It's unlikely that there's anywhere in a familiar environment that this bear could be safely relocated. Would confining him for life really be a preferred choice if you had to make it? Remembering that the animal keepers and other animals have to be kept safe also?

Btw, we have a friend in rural Florida who's accompanied on a half-mile walk from her little neighborhood through scrub woodland to the mailbox each morning by a bear. I've walked with them. It's nice. She's never tried to entice him closer than his chosen 20 feet or so. It works as long as neither of them eats the other.


(27,293 posts)
14. Humans are not entitled to live free from predation.
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 05:59 PM
Apr 2023

I don't happen to live in bear country (although I've recreated in bear country).

When I have been in the area of predators capable of harming me, I was aware of the risk and accepted it, without arming myself with more than a whistle. It would suck to become prey, just as it sucks for all prey animals. Such is nature.

Where do we humans get off thinking that we deserve to be exempt?


(58,785 posts)
18. :) Gee, that statement sounds like religious-level conviction.
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 06:55 PM
Apr 2023

Lacking facts to base such an attitude on, how could it be other than faith based?

I live in the real world with real people, not an ideological abstract.

Btw, I like to think I've also recreated in bear country, either or both kids -- we spent so much time in the wilderness, but will never know.

I'd love having you live in my neighborhood and be happy to drop by on my walks for coffee and a chat. (I'd be a little more restrained in what I said to protect a valued relationship.) But the day you said our other friend missing from our chat had had no right to try to use lethal force to protect herself from the bear that attacked and killed her? I'd have a problem.

And, yes, of course I'm assuming you wouldn't really react like that; but you did say it. I'm no ideologue -- everything has to work in the real world for most people, and bears, has to be workable for most or I won't support it.

To this day, I'm flabbergasted by those who imagined they had a right to choose, nearly 2 years ago now, to keep the minimum wage OTHER, REAL people live on at $7.25 because $12 wasn't the $15 they wanted. Was that even real to them? I think of those still trying to live on less often.

Our thoughts come closer together when I change the bear situation to that and think, "Where do they get off thinking that they deserve to be exempt?" But also worse, playing political "god" with the lives of others?


(27,293 posts)
21. Maybe my beliefs do rise to religious conviction, I don't know.
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 07:01 PM
Apr 2023

I just don't happen to think humans are "special" and deserve better than the other species we share the planet with.

In fact, I think humans are actually WORSE in most respects, in that we have a reasoning capacity that we (collectively as a species) have chosen not to use. Instead, we are actively, with homicidal negligence, destroying our entire biosphere with barely a wrinkled brow.

If it was just ourselves we were killing, I'd be fine with it. It is collectively our choice. What I am NOT fine with, is our decision to eradicate species we find inconvenient, and to casually be indifferent to the many others we are taking along on our joyride to doom.

So, all in all, I am anti human and pro just about every other species on earth.


(58,785 posts)
26. Not religious, Coventina. Religious-LEVEL conviction, based on faith
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 08:34 PM
Apr 2023

that can't be measured and proven, just a strong belief that doesn't require proof. Secular, religious, some other form of spirituality all variations.

Okay to the damage humans are doing, can't deny. But although nonhuman species differ from humans in their ability to wipe out species around the world, they're significant for their COMPLETE, species-wide indifference to the damage they do, simply not capable of caring. And in reality, animals are often able to wipe out whole species and destroying the ecosystems in their own regions, and do, but they can't be aware, can't feel guilt, can't care about other species. Some people do.

A most basic difference in our approaches, though, is that I don't see the animal world in terms of nonhuman animals versus human, but as creatures that are all what they are, all deserving of life. And I'm not misanthropic, zero inclination to define all humans by the worst of us and stop there. (Btw, how is that different from defining one race of people only by a minority of its lowest, most depraved members?)

So, nice conversation but mostly nonintersecting lines of thought on this one. Next time. Have a nice evening.


(64,444 posts)
28. Yes, humans love revenge.
Tue Apr 18, 2023, 09:46 PM
Apr 2023

Our precious, fragile egos. We're quite good at it, we love a good death penalty. Even a lot of the..."progressive" amongst us.

Female bear with three cubs? Yup, pathetic human response.

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