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bluestarone

(16,926 posts)
Fri May 19, 2023, 02:55 PM May 2023

I have a question for our lawyer types here, pertaining to Debt ceiling talks. (14 amendment)

Am i wrong in thinking that it would be better if Joe waited until these idiot RETHUGS decided to allow our country to go into debt? (because they refused to vote before it happens) THEN he COULD use the 14th amendment to make sure bills are guaranteed to be covered?

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I have a question for our lawyer types here, pertaining to Debt ceiling talks. (14 amendment) (Original Post) bluestarone May 2023 OP
Once the government goes into default all sorts of bad things start to happen right away. Ocelot II May 2023 #1
Agree, BUT bluestarone May 2023 #2
I would imagine Mr.Bill May 2023 #6
even if we get close to default (getting close will happen in a week) lapfog_1 May 2023 #3
I do see where you are thinking moniss May 2023 #4
Your last paragraph is exactly what i was trying to say. TY bluestarone May 2023 #5

Ocelot II

(115,683 posts)
1. Once the government goes into default all sorts of bad things start to happen right away.
Fri May 19, 2023, 03:01 PM
May 2023

Even a very brief default would cause a stock market crash, job losses, etc. Everything that happens in an economy has ripple effects that last for awhile. So a default can't happen; it has to be prevented. A loose analogy would be that if you owe money to a bunch of creditors and you just want to make a point by not paying when your bills come due but you know you'll pay them later, you hurt only yourself by incurring late fees and dinging your credit rating.

bluestarone

(16,926 posts)
2. Agree, BUT
Fri May 19, 2023, 03:05 PM
May 2023

Isn't THAT exactly what 14th amendment is all about? I thought it would instantly cover all debts. Am i wrong in my thinking about amendment 14? I really believe these House traitors are 100% ready for sending us into default. (my opinion ofcourse)

Mr.Bill

(24,284 posts)
6. I would imagine
Fri May 19, 2023, 05:24 PM
May 2023

just the anticipation of a default would affect the stock market. The market does not like uncertainty.

lapfog_1

(29,199 posts)
3. even if we get close to default (getting close will happen in a week)
Fri May 19, 2023, 03:07 PM
May 2023

it is entirely possible that our debt will be downgraded by independent ratings agencies.

This will cost us (the taxpayers) billions in the future because of increased interest on the 30+ trillion in debt that we owe today because to get that debt repurchased as it matures, we will have to pay more in interest to the bond holders.

moniss

(4,231 posts)
4. I do see where you are thinking
Fri May 19, 2023, 05:03 PM
May 2023

and it is an interesting wrinkle to the question. Several things are at play at once when considering using the 14th Amendment with respect to the debt ceiling. One of them is who has spending/taxing authority under the Constitution. On first blush the obvious answer would be Congress and the House more specifically. So if, by choice, they do not act to uphold the public debt clause of the 14th Amendment the question becomes who or what area of government can act absent action by the House and under what Constitutional authority. I'll try to present some of the aspects both ways on this argument.

A narrow reading of the clause and normal process would seem to some to indicate that validity of the debt is what is demanded. A narrow argument could further be made that allowing a failure to raise the debt ceiling, a.k.a. default, does not mean the debt is invalid but rather would simply mean we're not able/willing to pay it because of the inaction of the House. It would be somewhat similar in theory to any debt debtor situation in which the debtor is unable/unwilling to pay. The debt is still valid. Under that scenario, if accepted by the Supreme Court, would likely find that a President invoking the 14th by itself as the basis for acting without the House would not be necessary to comply with the clause. The MAGA justices are hostile to most of the 14th Amendment anyway and despite them being generally in favor of the "unitary executive" theory about great expansion of Presidential power they would likely be loathe to expand any power at all for a Democratic President.

A President could try to invoke "faithfully executing" the Constitution etc. but again you will have to get past the SC. There may be some remedies under emergency powers provisions that could be invoked and bypass or downplay the role of the 14th amendment in taking those actions but again you can be certain the matter will be immediately in front of the SC because it will be taken as an emergency. So having said all of this what can reasonably be done given a radical MAGA grip on the House and the SC?

It may require a Constitutional crisis moment. Once again if we look to narrow readings the issue would be the House, assuming the Senate poses no obstacle, failing to take a vote. The argument would have to be made to the SC that a vote is required under the Constitution. So the argument about validity and the effects of default on that validity would have to be made and if accepted by the SC the question becomes can they compel the House to take an action. The answer is not directly. If they decided that the failure to take a vote was unconstitutional the crisis would pretty much be in full bloom. The question would become how to enforce the finding? DOJ? Presidential action? Any action would have to find a basis for the authority to act and for what the act might be. We just don't know. How do we force a vote?

The SC could just reject hearing this at all. That would be less likely with this crowd because of their hostility to any Democratic President and exercise/expansion of power. My gut feeling is that in more normal relatively balanced Supreme Court memberships of the past that the judges would stay out of it but we know the times we're in. I could easily see this SC weighing in and siding against Biden using the 14th or emergency powers despite the economic chaos since chaos is what they are all about.

Government shutdown may be ahead of us with the MAGA loons jumping up and down in celebration. I think from a normal rational legal strategy, and in normal times, you are right that it would be more sound to make the argument for using Presidential authority/enforcing the 14th Amendment after a rejection by the House of their responsibility to initiate legislation on spending by taking a vote. But we are in very abnormal times.

So if we default on valid debt what happens next? Restructuring of the debt is done when other countries get into trouble but no country is like the US where our currency is the bedrock of the world markets. But I would add this link for further reading on the US debt ceiling and default. There are obviously some differences for each event but it gives us an idea particularly in the 1933 default that sometimes it gets cleaned up by defining it away.

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/575722-the-us-has-never-defaulted-on-its-debt-except-the-four-times-it-did/

bluestarone

(16,926 posts)
5. Your last paragraph is exactly what i was trying to say. TY
Fri May 19, 2023, 05:14 PM
May 2023

I DO believe that the president would be FULLY within his power using the 14th amendment, AFTER the House DID NOT do what it's obligated to do. The 14th, (in my mind) is the FAIL SAFE that our countries leaders put in place, just for something like this?

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