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planetc

(7,642 posts)
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 03:28 PM Sep 2023

Civil War? Or not.

All right. Last night on NPR I heard a guy saying we could not disqualify TFG on the 14th Amendment because this could lead to bloody battles when his followers will revolt and shoot a bunch of people. There are several reasons why I don’t think civil war is imminent. First, the extreme polarization which the press constantly refers to may be a figment of the media’s imagination. There may be one party of armed maniacs and a bunch of people who are not prepared to shoot anybody because of their red hats. Second, even if enough red hat people got together and decided to attack something, it is extremely difficult to decide what they could attack that would get them anywhere. Third, we have seen the strategic acumen of the red hat people on 1/6/21, and all their geniuses were AWOL. Even if they wanted to strike hard, they have no discipline, since their prowess is mainly in their imaginations. They think owning a gun or seven makes you a soldier.

Are we as polarized as the media think we are? There are certainly a lot of hot heads on the red hat side, people who want to use their guns to defend their country, but they, like all of us, are a little fuzzy on exactly who to shoot. But what about the blue hat side? I don’t see a whole lot of blue hats calling for the arrest of people who wear red hats. We are perfectly happy to wait for one of them to break the law, and then arrest them. We’re law and order types. So why do the media keep going on about it? Because it’s essential to their narrative structure that there be two sides in American politics: The liberal and conservative, the fiscally responsible and the spendthrifts, the red and the blue. It’s essential that these sides be evenly balanced, because if they were not, that would be a whole different story, one the media are not prepared to tell. In short, they’re not in the business of reporting news, but of entertaining us with an endless horse race, pumped full of as much emotion as they can imagine. I only discern one army, when you really need two for a war.

Next, should the red hats decide on revolt, what will their target or targets be? All the blue state houses? I don’t know about your governor, but I don’t see Gov. Hochul standing still for this. There may be an exchange of fire, but governors have the National Guard, police forces, and the law on their side. A blue state strategy would call for a larger army than the red hats could field, imho. What if Gov. DeSantis just surrenders his state house to the red hats? Well, that will be a problem for Floridians, but it will galvanize the rest of the country, who may develop a powerful desire to shut the red hats down. Oh, of course, why don’t they attack the U.S. Capitol building when congress is in session? Even with a traitorous President pulling strings, this didn’t work. TFG wasn’t serious, and some of his followers still haven’t got the memo, even as the 1/6 insurrectionists are escorted off to jail.

And lastly, we have seen no evidence that the red hat mob has any idea what a strategy is, much less any strategists. I have a feeling that any sergeant in the U.S. Army could do a better job of attacking a building than the entire red hat army. The Red Hats are deeply into shouting, roaring, clubbing, and decorating themselves with horned fur hats. I really don’t see that they have an officer class to lead them. I thing Red Hats may be an army of self-anointed leaders, with no followers.

It would be so nice if we had the media on our side, led by a few stalwart journalists who would just explain to the country that a 2024 TFG campaign for the presidency just will not work. They would have to drop their rigid “both sides are equal” theme, and sail out into the uncharted seas of reality, but I bet they would find the trip invigorating.


29 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Civil War? Or not. (Original Post) planetc Sep 2023 OP
People are already shooting other people. dchill Sep 2023 #1
Well, I don't know about half, but far too large a percentage. planetc Sep 2023 #5
I guess I'm thinking about the large percentage of... dchill Sep 2023 #9
They would attack power stations. usedtobedemgurl Sep 2023 #2
Power stations are also widely distributed in the country. planetc Sep 2023 #8
I think anything is possible to galvanize, usedtobedemgurl Sep 2023 #11
So if one side is destroying infrastructure wnylib Sep 2023 #19
Nah relayerbob Sep 2023 #3
My version of the civil war Tickle Sep 2023 #4
so in another 50 years or more Recycle_Guru Sep 2023 #10
Well... FalloutShelter Sep 2023 #6
You are thinking in terms of conventional war. wnylib Sep 2023 #21
We're already getting cyber attacks and hacking, from small bands of capitalists here and elsewhere. planetc Sep 2023 #26
Yes, you are right that they want an earthly paradise for White people. wnylib Sep 2023 #28
I could see them ramping up terrorism against anything Jerry2144 Sep 2023 #7
It'll all begin to look different, if magats start flying drones Model35mech Sep 2023 #12
We've got drones too, don't we? planetc Sep 2023 #16
Yep, and some people would likely feel forced to respond in kind Model35mech Sep 2023 #20
How do you know who to retaliate againstt with our drones? wnylib Sep 2023 #22
Well, they're idiots so there is that. AltairIV Sep 2023 #13
A few have started to wear body armor, but ... planetc Sep 2023 #17
"attack that would get them anywhere" bucolic_frolic Sep 2023 #14
Would Erik Prince get involved? wnylib Sep 2023 #24
Based on the measly showing at indictment courthouse protests with more media than magats, MLAA Sep 2023 #15
a "figment of the media's imagination?" or a "self fulfilling prophecy,." rampartc Sep 2023 #18
Anybody who argues that Trump should not be prosecuted or disqualified because his followers might Martin68 Sep 2023 #23
It's all hot air. The minute the guy next to them Emile Sep 2023 #25
No one is above the law. Period. Lady Freedom Returns Sep 2023 #27
Imo, no, given that the country was extremely different then. Oneironaut Sep 2023 #29

dchill

(38,106 posts)
1. People are already shooting other people.
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 03:32 PM
Sep 2023

Either way, we'll ALWAYS have that. We either have a Constitution or we do not. Trump literally fits the Fourteenth Amendment definition. So does half the Republican party.

planetc

(7,642 posts)
5. Well, I don't know about half, but far too large a percentage.
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 03:41 PM
Sep 2023

And of course you're right about the bullets already whizzing over our heads, and slaughtering some. The 14th amendment was written for exactly this situation. Fear of getting shot is not the attitude that founded the country.

dchill

(38,106 posts)
9. I guess I'm thinking about the large percentage of...
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 03:45 PM
Sep 2023

... House GOP who actually voted to reject Biden's Electoral College victory. My own Representative, Lloyd Smucker, was one of them.

usedtobedemgurl

(1,062 posts)
2. They would attack power stations.
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 03:36 PM
Sep 2023

There have been plans and tryouts on this already. If they can’t have the country, they will try to burn it to the ground.

planetc

(7,642 posts)
8. Power stations are also widely distributed in the country.
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 03:44 PM
Sep 2023

So I think a power station hit would also galvanize the country to action.

wnylib

(21,146 posts)
19. So if one side is destroying infrastructure
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 04:04 PM
Sep 2023

and the other side galvanizes for a response.....sounds like a civil war to me.

Besides destroying infrastructure, the RWers would target people for assassinations. The nature of any such civil war would be terrorist guerrilla tactics from the right. Would make it hard to fight them. In the end, they would lose. I am sure that our security and Intel agencies are aware of the dangers and are monitoring the situation and preparing for the possibility.

relayerbob

(6,489 posts)
3. Nah
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 03:37 PM
Sep 2023

Mom will threaten to take their hamberder allowance away. They’ll slink back to the basements and resume their twitter poutrage.

There will be nuts shooting - but that’s already happening.

Tickle

(2,418 posts)
4. My version of the civil war
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 03:39 PM
Sep 2023

People move to the state of their politics. Then at some point the country splits

FalloutShelter

(11,611 posts)
6. Well...
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 03:41 PM
Sep 2023

Let’s not forget who has the tanks.
If on 1/6… they had charged over Ashly Babbit’s body… they would have won the day. But they didn’t. Once the shooting started they faded.
They are terrorists… so attacking the infrastructure I can see.
But gun battle with the National Guard. I don’t think they have the sand.

wnylib

(21,146 posts)
21. You are thinking in terms of conventional war.
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 04:08 PM
Sep 2023

If the RWers decide on violent action, they will use terroristic guerrilla tactics. The damage will be done and they will be gone from the scene before anyone can respond.

Consider cyber attacks and hacking too. Maybe with help from outside the country.

planetc

(7,642 posts)
26. We're already getting cyber attacks and hacking, from small bands of capitalists here and elsewhere.
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 06:36 PM
Sep 2023

The campaign you're describing is a destabilization "war." My sense of the Red Hats is that they want the country they remember or imagine back again. An imaginary "America" is essential to their thinking. I don't think they want scorched earth, but an earthly paradise for white people.

wnylib

(21,146 posts)
28. Yes, you are right that they want an earthly paradise for White people.
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 08:18 PM
Sep 2023

But, if they are thwarted in their goal, I think they will go scorched earth. Tear it all down if they can't have their way.

Jerry2144

(2,019 posts)
7. I could see them ramping up terrorism against anything
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 03:44 PM
Sep 2023

Left seeming. Drive a Prius or electric car, support or be LGTBQIANB+ people, be a person of any of the categories they hate (color, religion, gender, intelligence, national origin, too many other things they hate) and you will be a target for the Meal Team 6, Gravy Seals, and Y’All Qaida.

It will show up as vandalism, attacks on individuals, terroristic threats, and public bad behavior (think those entitled people videos). But only a few of them will be that deranged. I suspect many of the Rabid Right have jobs they wish to keep and families to feed to really get into anything more than superficial.

Model35mech

(1,382 posts)
12. It'll all begin to look different, if magats start flying drones
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 03:45 PM
Sep 2023

Asymmetry and terror rather than battles like Antietam, Gettysburg, etc is the way forward for the radicalized few

planetc

(7,642 posts)
16. We've got drones too, don't we?
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 03:52 PM
Sep 2023

I will stipulate that the Red Hats are terrorists, but you can't take over a country this size without taking over a few buildings.

Model35mech

(1,382 posts)
20. Yep, and some people would likely feel forced to respond in kind
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 04:04 PM
Sep 2023

Don't think 1861-1864.

It takes only a few to bring terror.

And like all terrorists they'll, radicalize more followers and so spread their violence around, calling the disruption and chaos their type causes evidence of the power it yields to those who take it up.



When things get really terrible for the rest of us, they'll be looking for some sort of surrender from us. More like ISIS than the Confederacy.

wnylib

(21,146 posts)
22. How do you know who to retaliate againstt with our drones?
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 04:13 PM
Sep 2023

It's not like the drones will have return addresses.

AltairIV

(333 posts)
13. Well, they're idiots so there is that.
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 03:50 PM
Sep 2023

"They think owning a gun, or seven, makes you a soldier.". Bingo! In there fantasies no one ever shoots back at them.

planetc

(7,642 posts)
17. A few have started to wear body armor, but ...
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 03:58 PM
Sep 2023

that didn't help. They have half a tactic, but no strategy.

bucolic_frolic

(42,247 posts)
14. "attack that would get them anywhere"
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 03:50 PM
Sep 2023

if you don't control a national legislature or capitol city, your rebellion is doomed.

DeSantis has nothing left to surrender in Florida. It's already redder than most state governments.

The red army of misfits lacks clear political and policy goals. The rest of the citizenry would benefit by joining them how exactly?

Yes, MSM media are master psychologists. They know how to control eyeballs and keep the both sides pot boiling. The worst of them can inflict massive mental distortion with logical fallacies and make the body politic sick, all in the name of advertising revenue. In that respect, Trump was more a cultural phenomenon than a political movement. He could rabble rouse without a governing platform.

MLAA

(17,025 posts)
15. Based on the measly showing at indictment courthouse protests with more media than magats,
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 03:52 PM
Sep 2023

I think the J6 sentences have dampened the snowflakes enthusiasm for further insurrection.

rampartc

(5,196 posts)
18. a "figment of the media's imagination?" or a "self fulfilling prophecy,."
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 04:04 PM
Sep 2023

a lot of these guys are serious about killing "commies" (that is us) and esp blacks.

we need to be ready to take down a few if these yahoos if becomes necessity

Martin68

(22,553 posts)
23. Anybody who argues that Trump should not be prosecuted or disqualified because his followers might
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 04:15 PM
Sep 2023

react with violence is a traitor. If we can't enforce the rule of law against violent citizens, then we are no longer a democracy.

Emile

(21,106 posts)
25. It's all hot air. The minute the guy next to them
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 04:16 PM
Sep 2023

head explodes into a red mist, they'll lay down their arms trembling in fear.

Lady Freedom Returns

(14,120 posts)
27. No one is above the law. Period.
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 08:10 PM
Sep 2023

This is a foundation of our country. We have made this claim to the world about this.

So trump needs his day in court. There has been evidence found of wrong doing. And add to it, much of it was televised. That means the world has seen it. We need to stand up and show the world we mean what we say.

He will have his chance to answer the charges. He will have representation. He will have every opportunity to defend himself.

We can not let the fear of upsetting a faction of people to interrupt this process. It will make us look weak to the enemies of this country.

To allow these wayward citizens to interrupt the legal system with threats of violence will/would destroy this country than their attempt at a civil war.

Oneironaut

(5,423 posts)
29. Imo, no, given that the country was extremely different then.
Wed Sep 6, 2023, 09:50 PM
Sep 2023

At the time, cotton was making the South an ungodly amount of money, using slavery. The US Civil War was a very specific situation that probably could never happen again.

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