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paulkienitz

(1,292 posts)
Mon Sep 25, 2023, 11:51 AM Sep 2023

Why do even the most authoritarian right wingers keep using the words "liberty" and "freedom"?

This is the paradox of the US right wing which baffles non-Americans trying to observe our country, plus Americans in the center and left trying to understand the weirdos who keep messing things up for us: the fact that the fascist wing in our country, and all their right-of-center allies, keep pronouncing how much they believe in liberty even as they destroy it. It cannot be made sense of in logical terms, or "libertarians" would be staunch foes of fascists instead of all too often being their friends and allies.

As far as I can see, the answers vary -- there are nuances that differ based on the particular flavor of right winger in question. For instance, those who belong to religious cults define freedom in a narrow specific way: freedom from government authority which competes with the religious authority they want to establish. Their internal rules might be downright totalitarian, but when the government interferes with their ability to impose such an authoritarian way of life, out comes the rhetoric of freedom.

Capitalist types, of course, define it as freedom to make money without the government causing problems when their profits come at a human cost. Small-government types focus on freedom from paying taxes. And racist types may define it as freedom to not associate with minorities, or freedom from being expected to meet some basic standard of decent civil behavior around people they don't like.

The common ground is that they all believe in "freedom for me and mine, but not for you and yours".

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Why do even the most authoritarian right wingers keep using the words "liberty" and "freedom"? (Original Post) paulkienitz Sep 2023 OP
Also, for 50 years they've been saying that are "pro-life" Walleye Sep 2023 #1
Their version of "freedom" is the right to tell you how to live. Chainfire Sep 2023 #2
I think they rely on logical fallacies to abuse/confuse the public to control them bucolic_frolic Sep 2023 #3
Also they are in a constant state of doublethink. paulkienitz Sep 2023 #4
That's how they demonstrate condescending superiority to you bucolic_frolic Sep 2023 #6
It's fertile ground for Liberals to seize Johnny2X2X Sep 2023 #5
Agree with this, Diamond_Dog Sep 2023 #7
I think they like to steal words to create a definition of their own. Bluethroughu Sep 2023 #8
Pukes don't stand for Freedom, they don't stand for Liberty. The Unmitigated Gall Sep 2023 #9
It's Orwellian. dalton99a Sep 2023 #10
Newspeak. Midnight Writer Sep 2023 #28
Because those words are not well defined, or have been corrupted to mean whatever you want them to.. Caliman73 Sep 2023 #11
many of them do seem to want a world of lords and peasants paulkienitz Sep 2023 #18
branding Recycle_Guru Sep 2023 #12
LIke pious bigots, they believe only THEY should have liberty and freedom Model35mech Sep 2023 #13
"My country right or wrong" Flatrat Sep 2023 #14
they are talking about THEIR freedom and liberty to rule over, oppress, and harm other Americans RAB910 Sep 2023 #15
Reverse Orwell? no_hypocrisy Sep 2023 #16
It's not "reverse", it's a quote muriel_volestrangler Sep 2023 #30
What they mean is freedom FROM gov regulations, gov-mandated integration of schools, vlyons Sep 2023 #17
Ideologies 'quilt' the meanings of an entire network Voltaire2 Sep 2023 #19
Because it's "freedom" to oppress and destroy those who they deem unfit for their society budkin Sep 2023 #20
Add "patriot" to the list. Qutzupalotl Sep 2023 #21
A more important question to ask is... nycbos Sep 2023 #22
Because they're lying nazis Mysterian Sep 2023 #23
Probably for the same reason Jilly_in_VA Sep 2023 #24
Same reason... stuck in the middle Sep 2023 #25
When was the last time you heard the word "equality " from them? Boomerproud Sep 2023 #26
Hitler, Mussolini, Putin...they all do it...nt Wounded Bear Sep 2023 #27
You mean "Why do liars lie?" Iggo Sep 2023 #29
War Is Peace Deep State Witch Sep 2023 #31

bucolic_frolic

(42,078 posts)
3. I think they rely on logical fallacies to abuse/confuse the public to control them
Mon Sep 25, 2023, 11:54 AM
Sep 2023

They are engaged in mind manipulation after all.

paulkienitz

(1,292 posts)
4. Also they are in a constant state of doublethink.
Mon Sep 25, 2023, 11:55 AM
Sep 2023

In short, right wing debates are never honest. They never say what they actually want, they always try to either bullshit you or bullshit themselves.

bucolic_frolic

(42,078 posts)
6. That's how they demonstrate condescending superiority to you
Mon Sep 25, 2023, 11:57 AM
Sep 2023

It feeds their ego and their idea that God put them there to rule

Johnny2X2X

(18,357 posts)
5. It's fertile ground for Liberals to seize
Mon Sep 25, 2023, 11:56 AM
Sep 2023

Liberalism is more about freedom, it is liberal polciies that general expand freedom and conservative policies that curtail it.

When the GOP talks about freedom, they are talking about corporate freedom and little else.

And you see it in the states too. Red states have more laws, have stricter laws, and lock up higher portions of their populations. Blue states have legal weed, let people be whoever they decide to be, and let women choose what happens to their bodies. Common sense gun laws are not a curtailing of freedom, but rather an expansion of the freedom to be free from mass shootings and the threat of gun fire.

Diamond_Dog

(31,235 posts)
7. Agree with this,
Mon Sep 25, 2023, 11:59 AM
Sep 2023

And also the anti-abortion bills and such that they claim “Protect Women!” when in essence these backwards laws do the exact opposite! Nothing makes me more furious than when they spew this bullshit!

Bluethroughu

(4,955 posts)
8. I think they like to steal words to create a definition of their own.
Mon Sep 25, 2023, 12:04 PM
Sep 2023

Repeat repeat repeat...

Their masses believe it, and will not pick up a book to look it up. I told my brother one day that the Constitution does NOT say God given rights! Or Lord in it. Finally I told him if he didn't trust looking and reading it on The Library of Congress site then just use the Google machine!

When he did, he reframed his arguement that he didn't mean that, he meant The Declaration of Independence. He's lazy and doesn't want to read truth, he just wants to be told what to do.

It's the totalitarian mindset, they just want to be told what to do and not have to think or have consequences for their decisions.

The Unmitigated Gall

(3,620 posts)
9. Pukes don't stand for Freedom, they don't stand for Liberty.
Mon Sep 25, 2023, 12:06 PM
Sep 2023

They stand for white privilege and supremacy.

They aren't "Pro-Life". They're pro-control of women's bodies and keeping women "in their place".

"Isn't it funny how Nazis always manage to steal the word freedom?"

Caliman73

(11,637 posts)
11. Because those words are not well defined, or have been corrupted to mean whatever you want them to..
Mon Sep 25, 2023, 12:12 PM
Sep 2023

I sound like a broken record, but it is because this is the thing that EVERYONE needs to understand about Conservatism as a political ideology and worldview. This is very different from "conservative" in the sense of "wanting to preserve tradition and slow change in society" Many of us hold some "liberal" views on things and some "conservative" views on things. I am talking about Conservatism, the political ideology that is the descendent of Royalism or Monarchical and Aristocratic ideas from feudalism and the absolute monarchs of the 13th through 19th Centuries.

Conservatives see the world in terms of hierarchy. There are people who are better than others on a fundamental level. Back then it was the hereditary nobility, wealthy merchants, then everyone else. With the demise of aristocracy and monarchy as a widespread form of government, and the advent of Capitalism replacing "State" run systems... a new way (not really new) of "sorting" people had to emerge. If you were rich, then you were doing things right. You were blessed by god, or you were just better than other people and deserved more of the benefits of society.

For people who buy into this ideology as Ian Danskin from Innuendo Studios said, "The people above you are gods, but to the people below you, you are god" As long as you aren't on the bottom level of society, you can support the structure and believe in it. People who have been marginalized because of their skin color, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc... are typically not going to do as well financially and thus will be on lower levels of the pyramid. It is easier for people (Conservatives at least) to look down on "those people" and work within the system to keep them down, than it is to look up and see the inequity and fight to dismantle the entire system.

In a nutshell, yes "freedom/liberty for me and mine..." but mostly they want to preserve what they have, maybe get lucky and climb, but definitely keep all of those "other" people from taking what is theirs.

Model35mech

(1,357 posts)
13. LIke pious bigots, they believe only THEY should have liberty and freedom
Mon Sep 25, 2023, 12:13 PM
Sep 2023

to do as they piously wish, which includes them denying all the rest of us from action under similar liberties and freedom

This makes perfectly good sense to the pious who share the same beliefs as the bigots and who are afraid the non-pious will pollute their world, well, at least, their bathrooms for sure.

vlyons

(10,252 posts)
17. What they mean is freedom FROM gov regulations, gov-mandated integration of schools,
Mon Sep 25, 2023, 12:16 PM
Sep 2023

housing, restaurants, etc, freedom FROM gun control laws, freedom FROM laws they don't like.

budkin

(6,643 posts)
20. Because it's "freedom" to oppress and destroy those who they deem unfit for their society
Mon Sep 25, 2023, 12:27 PM
Sep 2023

That's liberty to them.

Qutzupalotl

(14,106 posts)
21. Add "patriot" to the list.
Mon Sep 25, 2023, 12:27 PM
Sep 2023

Those patriotic insurrectionists

those freedom book bans

the liberty same-sex marriage bans

the right to pee where we tell you

your body, my choice

etc.

nycbos

(6,015 posts)
22. A more important question to ask is...
Mon Sep 25, 2023, 12:31 PM
Sep 2023

... why did progressives allow the far right to steal those words? That was one of the things I liked about Pete Buttigieg's campaign. He used the word freedom repeatedly.

We should start using those words and expose how they are a threat to freedom and liberty

Jilly_in_VA

(9,746 posts)
24. Probably for the same reason
Mon Sep 25, 2023, 12:56 PM
Sep 2023

that the most conservative Babdist churches use the names "Liberty" or "Victory" and Jerry Foulball named his so-called university university "Liberty"--because, like Alice's Humpty Dumpty, the word means whatever they say it means.

Boomerproud

(7,829 posts)
26. When was the last time you heard the word "equality " from them?
Mon Sep 25, 2023, 01:08 PM
Sep 2023

It's not in their vocabulary or "values" because they don't believe in it.

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