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H2O Man

(73,800 posts)
Wed Sep 27, 2023, 02:28 PM Sep 2023

Waves

" It is from numberless diverse acts of courage and belief that human history is shaped each time a man stands up for an ideal or acts to improve the lot of others or strikes out against injustice. He sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest wall of oppression and resistance."
-- Senator Robert F. Kennedy; South Africa; June 6, 1966,


There are a number of interesting OP/threads on DU that I've read in the last 24 hours. These have included people's thoughts on things ranging from Cassidy Hutchinson to the summary judgment of Judge Arthur Engoron in the defendent's NYS case. As an old man who enjoys sitting at his pond, I recognize ripples when I see them.

Ms. Hutchinson is younger than my youngest daughter. The context of her life helped form her into what she self-describes as a Romney republican. Her talents got her a job and relatively rapid promotions in the defendent's administration. Her values made her recognize the horrors of the attempt to overturn the 2020 election with violence. Her courage eventually resulted in her telling the truth.

All of that made her, in most people's opinion, the most important witness in the J6 Committee's hearings. As an American, it is good that she -- and Liz Cheney -- stepped up to the plate. Both made ripples. But we should not drink the Ripple wine that could result in our mistaking either for heroes in our Democratic Party.

The summary judgment is another ripple. Though not the "end-all," it is good to read te judge noting the "fraudulent valuations" and "false and misleading square footage" by the defendent and his boys. More, the judge had said in court, "When I first heard those arguments, I thought that was a joke."

He had ruled on some of the defendent's lawyers positions before, and warned them not to continue to raise them. "As a lawyer, I have to make the arguments," one of the defendent's lawyers responded. "The rule on sanctions is if you've been warned, don't do it. You were warned," Engoron said. More ripples.

Now, none of these ripples alone will bring down the defendent, nor result in his going broke. But it is okay to think of John D. Rockefeller giving out dimes , after an anti-trust case, to try to look like a nice old man focusing on charity. Will the defendent start handing out dimes at his rallies? Perhaps try to copy Abbie Hoffman by throwing pennies to the NYS Stock Exchange? Would that qualify as counter-ripples?

Likewise, as the ripples begin to accumulate into waves, and the defendent's freak show gathers steam, people should feel free to ask questions about these and other topics. The only stupid question, as Malcolm X noted, is the one that remains unasked. At its best, DU is a place where we are all students and all teachers.

29 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Waves (Original Post) H2O Man Sep 2023 OP
DURec leftstreet Sep 2023 #1
Right!!!!! H2O Man Sep 2023 #4
Kicking. MontanaMama Sep 2023 #2
Thank you! H2O Man Sep 2023 #5
I wonder if folks are reminding themselves these are Democratic voices here bigtree Sep 2023 #3
Right. H2O Man Sep 2023 #6
I think they're both profiles in courage. ShazzieB Sep 2023 #14
Very interesting! H2O Man Sep 2023 #16
Thank you for this very thoughtful reply! ShazzieB Sep 2023 #26
The defendent & fiends H2O Man Sep 2023 #27
I had no idea that the indicted felon actually managed to keep Dr.Bandy out of the media! ShazzieB Sep 2023 #28
Truly an "American Beauty" No-Respect-In-TN Sep 2023 #7
I have a friend H2O Man Sep 2023 #17
KnR. n/t iluvtennis Sep 2023 #8
Thanks! H2O Man Sep 2023 #18
K&R 2naSalit Sep 2023 #9
Thank you! H2O Man Sep 2023 #19
To extend this analogy - I think Cassidy Hutchinson was a rock that broke the flow erronis Sep 2023 #10
This x 1000! ShazzieB Sep 2023 #15
Well said. H2O Man Sep 2023 #20
Now they need to ask would they support him etc., at the next debate, or it's fake, K&R, n/t MartyTheGreek Sep 2023 #11
Right. H2O Man Sep 2023 #21
K&R n/t OneGrassRoot Sep 2023 #12
Thanks! H2O Man Sep 2023 #22
Beautiful quote from RFK DeeDeeNY Sep 2023 #13
It is considered H2O Man Sep 2023 #23
The best kind of waves will resonate and amplify Martin Eden Sep 2023 #24
I think so, too. H2O Man Sep 2023 #25
🐝. KnR Hekate Sep 2023 #29

leftstreet

(36,121 posts)
1. DURec
Wed Sep 27, 2023, 02:32 PM
Sep 2023

All teenagers should remember - Ripple wine tastes good going down, but ultimately makes you puke

DURec

H2O Man

(73,800 posts)
4. Right!!!!!
Wed Sep 27, 2023, 02:53 PM
Sep 2023

Some of it doesn't even taste good going down! You kids need to listen to your Elders! We tackled this many, many times as teens!

H2O Man

(73,800 posts)
5. Thank you!
Wed Sep 27, 2023, 02:55 PM
Sep 2023

I had to hurry this post, as I've been waiting for my son to pick me up. Now that he is a father, he is often late. That allowed me the time needed to write up a few thoughts on Hutchinson and the summary judgment.

bigtree

(86,067 posts)
3. I wonder if folks are reminding themselves these are Democratic voices here
Wed Sep 27, 2023, 02:47 PM
Sep 2023

...which I believe should generally find more support than the words of an erstwhile Trump loyalist, for instance.

A little more consideration for actual Democrats defending justice in response to the absolute unchecked lawlessness of the Trump WH; Hutchinson, the unabashed republican, serving there with enthusiasm and commitment, until she didn't.

Folks speaking across the grain on an even board.

If my words did glow with the gold of sunshine
And my tunes were played on the harp unstrung
Would you hear my voice come through the music?
Would you hold it near as it were your own?

It's a hand-me-down, the thoughts are broken
Perhaps they're better left unsung
I don't know, don't really care
Let there be songs to fill the air

Ripple in still water
When there is no pebble tossed
Nor wind to blow

__Grateful Dead, Robert Hunter 1970

H2O Man

(73,800 posts)
6. Right.
Wed Sep 27, 2023, 02:57 PM
Sep 2023

I remember a few of our friends saying Liz Cheney was a "profile in courage." My response was that Dr. Bandy Lee was a profile in courage.

ShazzieB

(16,772 posts)
14. I think they're both profiles in courage.
Wed Sep 27, 2023, 05:48 PM
Sep 2023

And so is Cassidy Hutchinson. I am really tired of people dumping on her in every thread I've read here about her (not the majority of the posts, but there are always a few).

Furthermore, I would posit that it takes at least as much courage for Republicans to stand up to their own party as it does for Democrats to call out the party that we already regard as our opposition. Remember what Dumbledore said to Neville at the end of the first Harry Potter movie: "It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends."

I know the party line around here is that all Republicans are evil and all of them are exactly alike in their evilness, but that's far too broad of a generalization for me. Humans are much more complicated creatures than that (and yes, Republicans ARE humans, damn it, even the ones who seem to be lacking in certain human qualities). Granted, some of them are a lot alike in some ways, but it's very easy to go overboard in depersonalizing and stereotyping people we don't like, and I think it's a mistake to do so.

That's enough for now. I have errands to do, and I also need to go put on my flame proof underwear in preparation for some of the replies this post will probably receive.

H2O Man

(73,800 posts)
16. Very interesting!
Wed Sep 27, 2023, 07:45 PM
Sep 2023

Thank you for this thoughtful post. You make some very important points, and there is nothing that you've said that I disagree with. And trust me, the combination of my being Irish and a cranky -- I'm convinced that John Lennon wrote "Mean Mr. Mustard" with me in mind -- it is rareindeed for me to agree in full with anyone.

I recognize, for example, that my friendship with Dr. Lee makes it difficult to be objective. It's fair to say that I am more familiar with the threats and backlash she endured than anyone else on this forum. So I think she should be honored by Democrats, especially on a forum where I posted three interviews I did with her.

As I've noted, it was good that Liz Cheney stepped up. Adam Kinzinger, too. I respect what they did. Outside of that, Cheney is a neoconservative, sharing the values of her father. Kinzinger is a moderate republican, as is Ms. Hutchinson. I can work with moderate republicans. I have a friend in a nearby community who served in the NYS Assembly for many years. It's not like we visit each other's homes, but we talk. More, he helped Chief Waterman & I save an Indian burial ground from an aggressive, powerful construction industry. He's talked to me about problems his son had. While there has long been some toxic republicans at all levels, there used to be more that one could do business with. The House and Senate used to get things done.

So I again thank you for making important points. Just to maintain my reputation, however, I will say that there is no evidence that the defendent is a human being, unless one includes failed humans.

ShazzieB

(16,772 posts)
26. Thank you for this very thoughtful reply!
Thu Sep 28, 2023, 02:32 AM
Sep 2023

I absolutely agree about Dr. Bandy. I own the book she helped put together (The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump, in case anyone isn't familiar with it) and have been a big fan ever since it came out. Sge definitely deserves all the honor any of us can give her. I had no idea you were personally acquainted with her, and I'm sad but not surprised to hear that she experienced such a terrible backlash. That's what happens to anyone Trump sees as being "against" him: he gets his cultists all riled up against them and then sits back and smirks while the cultusts threaten and sometimes even commit violence against those whose backs Trump has put a target on.

He's using the same tactics right now against all the lawyers who are prosecuting him, the prospective witnesses, the judges overseeing the cases against him, and even the as yet to be named jurors, as well as too many others to list them all. His chief aim (i think) is to intimidate and frighten people he feels threatened by, but if any of his cultists decide to take things farther and do actual harm to someone, he's perfectly happy with that. It's absolutely despicable and horrifying, and I can't even imagine what it would feel like to be one of his targets.

The reason I made such a point of calling the Republicans who have openly opposed Trump profiles in courage is because I've read so many negative comments about Cassidy Hutchinson and others in the the threads about Cassidy's new book and the TV interviews she's been doing. I've seen 4 of those interviews now, and I've been extremely impressed with her every time. But there's always someone in those threads who doesn't want to give her and other Republicans who have taken a stand against Trump any credit for doing so, just because they ARE Republicans (some of whom even *gasp* initially supported him). That's been getting on my nerves, because I think people who do courageous things deserve credit, period, even if they're also wrong about some other things. That was in the back of my mind when I read your comment, and I'm afraid some of my frustration came bubbling up when I replied.

I have enjoyed reading your thoughts on this, and I feel like we are more in agreement than not!

H2O Man

(73,800 posts)
27. The defendent & fiends
Thu Sep 28, 2023, 10:57 AM
Sep 2023

were able to get the mainstream media to stop having Bandy on. Even Lawrence O'Donnell stopped having her as a guest. So in 2020, I did three interviews with her that I posted on this forum.

I'm retired, so I had no problem calling the defendent a sociopath. I explained the actual definitions -- Dr. Hare's "psychopath," and Dr. Fromm's "malignant narcissist," and sociopath are all variations of the same thing, though due entirely to insurance companies, they have changed "definitions" in the US. But in the first interview, we showed how the defendent is by definition a sociopath.

In the second one, we discussed how a sociopath in power attracts anti-social individuals around him to do his bidding. They serve as a protective layer around the sociopath, that is similar to the "white" that surrounds an egg yolk. Then the next layer is the shell ..... and surely the maga crowd is composed of mere shells of conscious human beings.

The third one was in October. We predicted the January 6 violence.

It's that second one, I think, that has to do with the primary point you have made ...... for when one is either part of that egg white or shell, and separates from that rotten egg, there is a price to be paid. Cheney and Kinzinger lost their jobs. Pence had people wanting to hang him. At the grass roots level, it is no different than opting to leave any other cult, especially when it begins to self-destruct. Now, Cassidy Hutchinson found herself in the egg white, and surely had far, far less resources for protection when she quit the cut's team. So while I respect Cheney, Kinzinger, and Pence for stepping up when it was most important, I definitely have more respect for Hutchinson. And I think it is far more likely that she will continue to evolve consciously than the others.

I have a first-edition of then Senator Kennedy's book "Profiles in Courage." It was only in more recent years that I removed the cellophane. It as, as you know, about those who risked their political careers to stand up for what is right. So I do think that we have seen a few republicans who fit the definition.

ShazzieB

(16,772 posts)
28. I had no idea that the indicted felon actually managed to keep Dr.Bandy out of the media!
Thu Sep 28, 2023, 06:18 PM
Sep 2023

I'm really sorry to hear that as well as disappointed in all those who caved to that pressure.

I somehow missed the interviews you posted here. I'll have to look for them.

erronis

(15,627 posts)
10. To extend this analogy - I think Cassidy Hutchinson was a rock that broke the flow
Wed Sep 27, 2023, 04:50 PM
Sep 2023

She was steadfast and, after discarding her trumpist lawyer, strong against the currents in the (r)epuglicon and magat community. It didn't make her renounce her Republican background but she was vehement against those that tried to destroy the country - those including her boss Meadows and the so-called president.

I was so impressed in her interview with Lawrence O'Donnell and her referring to another rock during Watergate, Alexander Butterfield. There was so much mutual respect between those two - this is how we humans should operate. Respect, not monetary transactions.

ShazzieB

(16,772 posts)
15. This x 1000!
Wed Sep 27, 2023, 05:54 PM
Sep 2023

Last edited Thu Sep 28, 2023, 06:19 PM - Edit history (1)

I was very impressed with the Lawrence O'Donnell, too. I loved the way he devoted the entire hour to that interview, because it enableh to get into a lot of things more deeply than he could have in a shorter segment.

I for one am very impressed with Cassidy Hutchinson, and very disappointed that some don't want to give her the credit she deserves for her courage and her determination to do the right thing.

H2O Man

(73,800 posts)
20. Well said.
Wed Sep 27, 2023, 07:58 PM
Sep 2023

I liked her interview on Lawrence's show, too. And the connection with Butterfield. I think that she probably made more republicans think twice about the defendent and his January 6th supporters, than the others -- including from the administration -- that had already come out in opposition to the criminals.

Perhaps most important, at least in my mind, is that her testimony appears to have resulted in Jack Smith being appointed.

DeeDeeNY

(3,362 posts)
13. Beautiful quote from RFK
Wed Sep 27, 2023, 05:05 PM
Sep 2023

He must be spinning in his grave these days with what is going on with RFK Jr.

H2O Man

(73,800 posts)
23. It is considered
Wed Sep 27, 2023, 08:01 PM
Sep 2023

by many to be RFK's best speech. I love the whole thing. The part I quoted was from Arthur Schlesinger's contributions to the speech.

H2O Man

(73,800 posts)
25. I think so, too.
Wed Sep 27, 2023, 10:18 PM
Sep 2023

It is an opportunity that is open to us. As long as everyone works towards it, we can crush the maga-republicans. And the few non-maga republicans, as well.

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