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As usual, "The Guardian" has an essay that makes the most sense out of the new war in the.... (Original Post) RussellCattle Oct 2023 OP
I love and trust the Guardian. efhmc Oct 2023 #1
Misses the mark with me. Frasier Balzov Oct 2023 #2
That assimilation would have been much easier without the bulldozing of homes to build ever.... RussellCattle Oct 2023 #6
The use of the word "reclaim" in quotes is appropriate when one considers that in the Old.... MMBeilis Oct 2023 #13
Ugh, religion redqueen Oct 2023 #14
You know, that was basically my feeling as I wrote about "The Old Testament". "What the heck... MMBeilis Oct 2023 #16
Not just the middle east, unfortunately. redqueen Oct 2023 #58
It's not necessarily about religion Bad Thoughts Oct 2023 #24
Well I'm all in for Native American Indians KS Toronado Oct 2023 #37
+1. Want to start a fight? Religion, Sports, politics and you have one...nt mitch96 Oct 2023 #43
Read what you just wrote and let it sink in malaise Oct 2023 #7
This message was self-deleted by its author RussellCattle Oct 2023 #10
If it's the word "reclaim" that you feel is important, know that I used it intentionally and that... RussellCattle Oct 2023 #17
+1 Celerity Oct 2023 #33
Netanyahu's rise ended that possibility. nt pnwmom Oct 2023 #15
OFFS ExWhoDoesntCare Oct 2023 #59
Are you an Israeli jew living in Israel? druidity33 Oct 2023 #60
Man! Does this part sound vaguely familiar? maxrandb Oct 2023 #3
+1 redqueen Oct 2023 #5
Yes it really does. RussellCattle Oct 2023 #19
The Guardian is the best newspaper on the planet malaise Oct 2023 #4
Amen, Mr. Malaise, amen. It is an amazing source of truthful reporting. I don't contribute to.... RussellCattle Oct 2023 #8
Hehehehhehhe I'm female malaise Oct 2023 #9
Dammit anyway, I knew that! Not the first time I've done that. Madam Malaise, thank you for your... RussellCattle Oct 2023 #11
No bigggie 😀😀 malaise Oct 2023 #12
It's funny how we can unconsciously associate each other with our avatars. ShazzieB Oct 2023 #52
LOL - good point re our avatars malaise Oct 2023 #55
Agreed. And thanks for the background on it. KPN Oct 2023 #35
Voting rights involved major struggles on our planet malaise Oct 2023 #39
Damn straight. roamer65 Oct 2023 #40
Questions. Did Israeli soldiers kidnap and hold as hostages civilian ... Whiskeytide Oct 2023 #18
The Gaza strip is sealed behind walls and security gates... maspaha Oct 2023 #41
Short answer on human shields... carpetbagger Oct 2023 #44
Thank you. That's a great, measured and informative ... Whiskeytide Oct 2023 #53
This part bears repeating AncientOfDays Oct 2023 #20
Precisely malaise Oct 2023 #21
Do you think the IDF shoots at Palestinian civilians on purpose? Mosby Oct 2023 #25
Gaza: Israeli Soldiers Shoot and Kill Fleeing Civilians Celerity Oct 2023 #30
Wow. At a lecture once, given by the Israeli ambassador to the U.S., I asked him about the..... RussellCattle Oct 2023 #32
All the articles on that event in 2014 came from a single eyewitness. Mosby Oct 2023 #34
no, as there were multiple events in Khuza'a, & the 2nd article's about a Feb 2023 event in Nablus Celerity Oct 2023 #48
Shhhhhhhhh! malaise Oct 2023 #45
Here you go: meadowlander Oct 2023 #46
Double standards Mosby Oct 2023 #54
I wonder of Russia and China funds Amnesty International. Mosby Oct 2023 #57
Wasn't an American Palestinian Journalist Shot Recently? McKim Oct 2023 #51
Yes malaise Oct 2023 #61
0/10 Mosby Oct 2023 #22
"Never Again" are indeed empty words if they come to mean that the next time we will be..... EarnestPutz Oct 2023 #27
Bingo. roamer65 Oct 2023 #38
This message was self-deleted by its author Celerity Oct 2023 #50
A movie for some levity Bear Creek Oct 2023 #23
Funny stuff. Got to the love the competing headgear on the cooks. EarnestPutz Oct 2023 #28
You're exactly right about the article. Putting the attacks made by desperate people into it's.... EarnestPutz Oct 2023 #26
Compare and contrast? An article from our friends at HuffPost...... RussellCattle Oct 2023 #29
KnR. Really good Op Ed. n/t iluvtennis Oct 2023 #31
Decades of Masculine Responses modrepub Oct 2023 #36
Is there a way to separate Hamas from Gaza civilians? scipan Oct 2023 #42
Distinctions must be made between bronxiteforever Oct 2023 #47
View from a Brit Fresh Water Falling Oct 2023 #49
Thank you for posting this. I like the Guardian a lot. It is one of my PatrickforB Oct 2023 #56

Frasier Balzov

(2,721 posts)
2. Misses the mark with me.
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 04:32 PM
Oct 2023

Palestinians could have been assimilated into Israeli society decades ago.

But PLO and Hamas extremists would not allow it.

RussellCattle

(1,549 posts)
6. That assimilation would have been much easier without the bulldozing of homes to build ever....
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 04:47 PM
Oct 2023

.....expanding "settlements" to "reclaim" land and provide more security from the people whose homes and land was taken.
The Meir Kahane school of Israeli politics provides an unfortunate counterpoint to PLO and Hamas extremists.

MMBeilis

(207 posts)
13. The use of the word "reclaim" in quotes is appropriate when one considers that in the Old....
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 05:08 PM
Oct 2023

....Testament God gave the land to the Tribes of Israel, but on the condition that drive out the other tribes who were there at the time. This context shouldn't be ignored on anyone considering the events 0f 1948.

redqueen

(115,113 posts)
14. Ugh, religion
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 05:10 PM
Oct 2023

Honestly how are we still raising humans to believe such nonsense in developed countries

MMBeilis

(207 posts)
16. You know, that was basically my feeling as I wrote about "The Old Testament". "What the heck...
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 05:22 PM
Oct 2023

....are you doing?", I asked myself, "referring to this nonsense." My rationale was that I was explaining my understanding of the stupidity of the tribalism and archaic thought that still defines the Middle East. "Ugh, religion" indeed!

Bad Thoughts

(2,545 posts)
24. It's not necessarily about religion
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 05:43 PM
Oct 2023

Whatever the Bible says about a deity giving the land, it nonetheless expresses historical relationships between a place--the environment, the landscape, the villages, the cities--and a people--the Israelites and, later, the Judeans and Samaritans. The names of these places and peoples are recorded in the Bible with the level of historical accuracy typical of the time. They are also recorded in archeology and the histories of other civilizations. Places built by Israelites were confiscated by various empires. Is it wrong to demand it back? If African nations ask their heritage and culture to be repatriated, it is wrong? Is there a statue of limitations that go against such requests?

KS Toronado

(17,732 posts)
37. Well I'm all in for Native American Indians
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 06:37 PM
Oct 2023

from sea to shiny sea to reclaim their land and kick everybody out they don't like or who are too weak
to become fruitful slaves.

Response to malaise (Reply #7)

RussellCattle

(1,549 posts)
17. If it's the word "reclaim" that you feel is important, know that I used it intentionally and that...
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 05:30 PM
Oct 2023

.....in comment #13 above MMBeilis has understood exactly what I meant.

 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
59. OFFS
Tue Oct 10, 2023, 04:37 AM
Oct 2023

That assimilation twaddle is what dominant societies have always said about minorities. I hear the same thing all the time from white Americans discussing Native Americans, Hispanics and Blacks. 'Why can't they just become/act American?'

Assimilation is not the answer. People need to respect each other, despite any differences.

maxrandb

(15,515 posts)
3. Man! Does this part sound vaguely familiar?
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 04:36 PM
Oct 2023
"...entangled in legal proceedings appointed, to suit his own political needs, people who were not only extremely hawkish but also highly unprofessional – and put them in charge of our security."

malaise

(270,120 posts)
4. The Guardian is the best newspaper on the planet
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 04:42 PM
Oct 2023

It is not corporate owned.

https://www.theguardian.com/about/history#

The Manchester Guardian was founded to promote the liberal interest in the aftermath of the 1819 Peterloo Massacre, and was first published on 5 May 1821. The Guardian achieved national and international recognition under the editorship of CP Scott, who held the post for 57 years from 1872.
In May 1921, CP Scott wrote a leading article to mark the centenary of the paper setting out the values of the Guardian: honesty, cleanness [integrity], courage, fairness, a sense of duty to the reader and a sense of duty to the community.

RussellCattle

(1,549 posts)
8. Amen, Mr. Malaise, amen. It is an amazing source of truthful reporting. I don't contribute to....
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 04:51 PM
Oct 2023

.....many organizations, but The Guardian gets $20 a month from me.

RussellCattle

(1,549 posts)
11. Dammit anyway, I knew that! Not the first time I've done that. Madam Malaise, thank you for your...
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 05:00 PM
Oct 2023

.....sense of humor in this regard. Enjoy your stuff.

malaise

(270,120 posts)
12. No bigggie 😀😀
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 05:06 PM
Oct 2023

You’re praising the most liberal paper around- that’s the story here😀😀

ShazzieB

(16,862 posts)
52. It's funny how we can unconsciously associate each other with our avatars.
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 07:15 PM
Oct 2023

For example, I know your avatar is Bob Marley, I know you are a woman, and I don't know what you actually look like, but my mental image of you is a person with a huge, warm smile. Every time I read one of your posts, I see that smiling Bob Marley avatar, and that smile has become inextricably associated in my mind with malaise. And I'll bet I'm not the only one!

Not a bad thing to be associated with, at all.

malaise

(270,120 posts)
55. LOL - good point re our avatars
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 07:42 PM
Oct 2023

Bob is our Beethoven. He’ll be enjoyed hundreds of years after his death.
And like Bob, I do smile alot. 😀

Whiskeytide

(4,470 posts)
18. Questions. Did Israeli soldiers kidnap and hold as hostages civilian ...
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 05:32 PM
Oct 2023

… women, children and elderly in the past? Is there credible reporting of that? This article suggest they have, but it’s unclear. While I have heard of raids to capture alleged terrorists, I have not heard of the Israeli’s simply disappearing civilians, especially children and elderly.

Did Israeli soldiers rape their hostages? Is there credible reporting of that? I don’t think I’ve ever heard anything like that.

And I’m legit asking. I’ve googled it, but the internet is so overloaded with current event pieces that I can’t get a clear answer on historical actions.

maspaha

(255 posts)
41. The Gaza strip is sealed behind walls and security gates...
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 06:44 PM
Oct 2023

Residents of Gaza, men, women, and children, can’t come and go as they please. Could that be called kidnapping? Or unlawful imprisonment?

They’re also under the oppressive control of Hamas with no opportunity to vote them out. They live in poverty without enough food or clean water or jobs.

I remember seeing videos of Israeli military destroying the homes of the family members of accused Palestinian terrorists. TFG thought it was such a great idea that he proposed doing the same here to ANTIFA.

I don’t want to start conspiracy theories, but, did Bebe let this happen to deflect attention from his corruption and his take over of the courts? Or, was his government just distracted with Bebe and missed the intelligence?

All the way around it’s a nasty shit show with autocrat, oligarch, and billionaire fingerprints all over it and innocent blood will continue to spill.

carpetbagger

(4,404 posts)
44. Short answer on human shields...
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 06:52 PM
Oct 2023

There are sporadic reports over the years that this has occurred during urban warfare. How much is IDF formal or de facto policy or not is uncertain. I've read, not recdently, an Amnesty report on one of the Gaza campaigns, it's pretty well documented. I'd describe it as problematic like American police and Abu Ghraib-type problems, rather than in the case of Hamas as a major or even directly intended policy. There have been rapes of Palestinians by Israeli security, although I'm not sure it's more than one would expect in any occupation/police state scenario, and there seems to be some level of accountability.

They imprison a lot of Palestinians, some without charges for periods of time, and some for nonviolent protest. Also, many of their force actions have to do with taking Palestinian land to hand to Israeli settlers and projects. To brand it all in a terrorist rubric comes a little too closely to U.S. policy towards native nations over the centuries here.

That's my beest short version.

Whiskeytide

(4,470 posts)
53. Thank you. That's a great, measured and informative ...
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 07:35 PM
Oct 2023

… response. And it’s what I would have supposed given my news-injected understanding over several decades of paying about as much attention to the Middle East conflicts as the avg American.

So it seems Israel has committed atrocities along the lines of what most nation states are guilty of in any “occupation” campaign. That’s not an excuse, just an observation. Certainly not something to be condoned or praised in any way.

But it would seem there is a distinct difference between that and what Hamas has waged these last several days. Perhaps Israel has tempered its approach - and tactics - because it recognizes the benefit of and needs international support, and genocide doesn’t achieve such a goal. But clearly a terrorist state that states as one of its tenants the eradication of a nation and its people is - different.

None of this solves the many problems all of this presents, but it may help us understand why most side with Israel here.

AncientOfDays

(165 posts)
20. This part bears repeating
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 05:32 PM
Oct 2023

It is important not to minimise or condone the heinous crimes committed by Hamas. But it is also important to remind ourselves that everything it is inflicting on us now, we have been inflicting on the Palestinians for years. Indiscriminate firing, including at children and older people; intrusion into their homes; burning down their houses; taking hostages – not just fighters but civilians, children and older people. I keep reminding myself that ignoring this context is giving up a piece of my own humanity. Because violence devoid of any context leads to only one possible response: revenge. And I don’t want revenge from anyone. Because revenge is the opposite of security, it is the opposite of peace, it is also the opposite of justice. It is nothing but more violence.

Mosby

(16,506 posts)
25. Do you think the IDF shoots at Palestinian civilians on purpose?
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 05:44 PM
Oct 2023

Can you point to an incident where the IDF took hostages?

Celerity

(44,303 posts)
30. Gaza: Israeli Soldiers Shoot and Kill Fleeing Civilians
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 06:10 PM
Oct 2023
Fighting in Khuza’a Shows Grave Dangers to Families Seeking Safety

https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/gaza-israeli-soldiers-shoot-and-kill-fleeing-civilians

(Gaza) – Israeli forces in the southern Gaza town of Khuza’a fired on and killed civilians in apparent violation of the laws of war in several incidents between July 23 and 25, 2014. Deliberate attacks on civilians who are not participating in the fighting are war crimes.

Seven Palestinians who had fled Khuza’a described to Human Rights Watch the grave dangers that civilians have faced in trying to flee the town, near the Israeli border, to seek safety in Khan Younis. These included repeated shelling that struck apparent civilian structures, lack of access to necessary medical care, and the threat of attack from Israeli forces as they tried to leave the area. “When will there be justice for the civilians in Khuza’a, who suffered shelling for days, then faced deadly attacks by Israeli soldiers after being ordered to leave the town?” asked Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East and North Africa director.

Khuza’a, which has a population of about 10,000, was the scene of fighting between Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups during an Israeli ground offensive in the area on July 23, Israeli news media reported. Israeli forces provided general warnings to Khuza’a residents to leave the area prior to July 21. While the laws of war encourage “advance, effective warnings” of attacks, the failure of civilians to abide by warnings does not make them lawful targets of attack – for obvious reasons, since many people do not flee because of infirmity, fear, lack of a place to go, or any number of other reasons. The remaining presence of such civilians despite a warning to flee cannot be ignored when attacks are carried out, as Israeli forces have done previously.

“Warning families to flee fighting doesn’t make them fair targets just because they’re unable to do so, and deliberately attacking them is a war crime,” Whitson said. Human Rights Watch investigated several incidents between July 23 and 25 when, local residents said, Israeli forces opened fire on civilians trying to flee Khuza’a, but no Palestinian fighters were present at the time and no firefights were taking place. On the morning of July 23, Israeli forces ordered a group of about 100 Palestinians in Khuza’a to leave a home in which they had gathered to take shelter, family members said. The first member to leave the house, Shahid al-Najjar, had his hands up but an Israeli soldier shot him in the jaw, seriously injuring him.

snip


more



3D analysis shows how Israeli troops fired into group of civilians

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2023/palestine-shooting-nablus-videos/

Israeli security forces in an armored vehicle fired repeatedly into a group of civilians sheltering between a mosque and a clinic after a Feb. 22 raid in the occupied West Bank city of Nablus, killing two people, including a teenager, and wounding three others, according to witnesses and a visual reconstruction of the event by The Washington Post.

The Post spoke with two witnesses to the shooting, obtained previously unpublished videos of the incident from a bystander and the Israel Defense Forces, and had audio experts analyze the gunfire. A Post reporter collected visual evidence at the scene to reconstruct the incident using 3D modeling software, and reporters also reviewed more than 30 videos filmed in Nablus that day.

The Post reconstruction shows that, while responding to what they claimed was a gunman, Israeli forces fired at least 14 times from inside their armored vehicle as it moved down a street and then came to a halt next to a short wall behind which the civilians huddled. The Israelis continued firing even after those people would have been visible from the vehicle’s windows, the analysis shows.

“It was a black Wednesday,” said Farid Shaaban, the father of 16-year-old Mohammad Shaaban, who was killed as he waited for a ride home after school. “For Nablus and for my personal history, my family.”

snip

RussellCattle

(1,549 posts)
32. Wow. At a lecture once, given by the Israeli ambassador to the U.S., I asked him about the.....
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 06:23 PM
Oct 2023

.....accepted practice in Journalism of avoiding the use of "loaded language" to prejudice a news story. I asked how this jibbed with reportage on the Middle East conflict that always referred to "Palestinian terrorists" and "Israeli Defense Forces", rather than say, freedom fighters/guerillas and the Israeli Army? He had no answer, really, saying, rather lamely that he wasn't a journalist.

Celerity

(44,303 posts)
48. no, as there were multiple events in Khuza'a, & the 2nd article's about a Feb 2023 event in Nablus
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 07:07 PM
Oct 2023

Also, per the UN Human Rights Council, during the 2014 Gaza War, also known as Operation Protective Edge (which is when those Khuza’a events occurred)

2,251 Palestinians were killed, of which 65% were civilians.

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBodies/HRCouncil/CoIGaza/A_HRC_CRP_4.doc

meadowlander

(4,417 posts)
46. Here you go:
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 07:03 PM
Oct 2023
https://www.unicef.org/sop/media/1746/file/CAAC%20Bulletin%202013,.pdf

"F. Conclusions
Ill-treatment of Palestinian children in the Israeli military detention system appears
to be widespread, systematic and institutionalized. This conclusion is based on the
repeated allegations about such treatment over the past 10 years and the volume,
consistency and persistence of these allegations.

The pattern of ill-treatment includes the arrests of children at their homes between
midnight and 5:00 am by heavily armed soldiers; the practice of blindfolding children
and tying their hands with plastic ties; physical and verbal abuse during transfer to
an interrogation site, including the use of painful restraints; lack of access to water,
food, toilet facilities and medical care; interrogation using physical violence and
threats; coerced confessions; and lack of access to lawyers or family members during
interrogation.

Treatment inconsistent with child rights continues during court appearances,
including shackling of children; denial of bail and imposition of custodial sentences;
and transfer of children outside occupied Palestinian territory to serve their sentences
inside Israel.

These practices are in violation of international law that protects all children against
ill-treatment when in contact with law enforcement, military and judicial institutions."

Who needs hostages when you have state power?

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

"Israeli policies have allowed for the discriminatory allocation of state land to be used almost exclusively to benefit Jewish Israelis both inside of Israel and in the OPT."

"Decades of discriminatory allocation of resources by Israeli authorities, for the benefit of Jewish Israeli citizens in Israel and Israeli settlers in the OPT, compound these inequalities. For example, millions of Palestinians inside of Israel and East Jerusalem live in densely populated areas that are generally underdeveloped and lack adequate essential services such as garbage collection, electricity, public transportation and water and sanitation infrastructure.

Palestinians across all areas under Israel’s control have fewer opportunities to earn a living and engage in business than Jewish Israelis. They experience discriminatory limitations on access to and use of farmland, water, gas and oil amongst other natural resources, as well as restrictions on the provision of health, education and basic services.

In addition, Israeli authorities have appropriated the vast majority of Palestinians’ natural resources in the OPT for the economic benefit of Jewish citizens in Israel and in the illegal settlements."

"Palestinians are systematically subjected to home demolitions and forced evictions, and live in constant fear of losing their homes.

For more than 73 years, Israel has been forcibly displacing entire Palestinian communities. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians’ homes have been demolished, causing terrible trauma & suffering. More than 6 million Palestinians remain refugees, the vast majority of whom live in refugee camps including outside of Israel/OPT. There are over 100,000 Palestinians in the OPT and another 68,000 inside of Israel at imminent risk of losing their homes, many for the second or third time.

Palestinians are caught in a Catch-22 situation. Israel requires them to obtain a permit to build or even erect a structure such as a tent, but – unlike Jewish Israeli applicants – rarely issues them a permit. Many Palestinians are forced to build without permits. Israel then demolishes Palestinian homes on the basis that they were built “illegally”. Israel uses these discriminatory planning and zoning policies to create unbearable living conditions to force Palestinians to leave their homes to allow for the expansion of Jewish settlement."

Mosby

(16,506 posts)
54. Double standards
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 07:42 PM
Oct 2023

That first article could be written about any juvenile jail in the US.

Amnesty (and HRW) is biased because they earn a living from the IP conflict.

Mosby

(16,506 posts)
57. I wonder of Russia and China funds Amnesty International.
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 07:51 PM
Oct 2023

Sure seems like they have certain obsessions.

US Congress must launch urgent inquiry into Obama’s drone use


The US Congress must launch an immediate independent inquiry into the Obama administration’s drone strikes overseas, Amnesty International said following today’s publication of a series of files and documents disclosing long-standing secrets of the global killing programme.

“The Drone Papers”, leaked by an anonymous whistle-blower to the online media outlet The Intercept, reveal the startling human costs of armed drone use and highlight chronic flaws in the decision-making process behind the strikes carried out in multiple countries.

“These documents raise serious concerns about whether the USA has systematically violated international law, including by classifying unidentified people as ‘combatants’ to justify their killings,” said Naureen Shah, Director, Security with Human Rights at Amnesty International USA

"This warrants an immediate congressional inquiry into why the Obama administration has kept this vital information secret, including the real identities of all those killed in this global killing programme.

“These revelations are further damning evidence that the Obama administration is continuing the Bush-era project of treating the world as a global battlefield while evading public accountability.”


https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2015/10/us-congress-must-launch-urgent-inquiry-into-obamas-drone-use/


McKim

(2,412 posts)
51. Wasn't an American Palestinian Journalist Shot Recently?
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 07:13 PM
Oct 2023

Wasn’t an American Palestinian journalist shot recently by the IDF when she was doing her job?

Mosby

(16,506 posts)
22. 0/10
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 05:35 PM
Oct 2023
It is important not to minimise or condone the heinous crimes committed by Hamas. But it is also important to remind ourselves that everything it is inflicting on us now, we have been inflicting on the Palestinians for years


Liar.

What happened to Never Again? Empty words, just like always when it's about Jews.



EarnestPutz

(2,171 posts)
27. "Never Again" are indeed empty words if they come to mean that the next time we will be.....
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 05:54 PM
Oct 2023

.....the ones on top.

Response to Mosby (Reply #22)

EarnestPutz

(2,171 posts)
26. You're exactly right about the article. Putting the attacks made by desperate people into it's....
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 05:52 PM
Oct 2023

.....proper context, is not minimizing or justifying them. Take special note of her word "starvation".

modrepub

(3,517 posts)
36. Decades of Masculine Responses
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 06:35 PM
Oct 2023

attack, counter attack, rinse, repeat.

The reporter seems to provide a balanced assessment, something sorely missed by the current leadership in the region. One wonders what would happen if women were put in charge of both the Israel the Arab sides. Would ME conflict be a thing of the past?

bronxiteforever

(9,287 posts)
47. Distinctions must be made between
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 07:04 PM
Oct 2023

average Palestinians and Hamas fighters. I believe it is important to not conflate Palestinians with Hamas. I don’t think the Hamas fighters were starving. One of the criticisms leveled, by other factions operating in Palestinian areas, is that Hamas officials live in luxury and do nothing for the people.

The Israeli siege of Gaza will not work. Subjecting a large populace to collective punishment undercuts Israel’s righteous war against Hamas. A child is a child and all deserve protection.

Of course Hamas will stage internet executions of the disabled, elderly or children of hostages because their violence is performative and not driven by tactics. Hamas will murder the hostages regardless of any outcome of a siege. Hamas answers only to its paymaster in Teheran and the Mullahs are feeling great right now. Hamas needs to be hunted out of existence.

PatrickforB

(14,633 posts)
56. Thank you for posting this. I like the Guardian a lot. It is one of my
Mon Oct 9, 2023, 07:44 PM
Oct 2023

news sources.

The article makes some very good points. Without in any way defending the heinous actions carried out by Hamas, we have to think of the people, both Jews and Palestinians.

Do those living in Gaza and on the West Bank have their basic human needs met? Do they all have housing? Food? Water? Clothing? Are they all able to find work that pays a living wage? Is there healthcare for them and their children? Dental care? Child care? Primary and secondary schools? A sense of safety? And how does Netanyahu think turning off their power and water will work? Not only will this act punish the Hamas criminals, but it will also punish innocent people by depriving them of some basic necessities. It will create yet more hate.

The problem is that if one whole group of people doesn't have these basic things and their needs are ignored over decades, then eventually they strike back. Then we have war. Blood. Killing. Children dying. Netanyahu may have declared war, and surely the Hamas perpetrators of all this killing need to be brought to account for their crimes. But what about Netanyahu and the hard liners? Who holds them accountable for their continued oppression of these people?

This is a tragedy from which nothing good will come. Just war, death, and atrocities.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»As usual, "The Guardian" ...