General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums30 years on, whose side of this NAFTA debate would you support
Last edited Wed Nov 8, 2023, 08:57 PM - Edit history (1)
Vice President Al Gore and Ross Perot debate on CBN with Larry King moderating. Quite the time capsule:
former9thward
(32,382 posts)He said the agreement would create a huge sucking sound of middle class jobs being drained from the U.S. That is exactly what happened.
Recycle_Guru
(2,973 posts)then allowing China i to WTO did a lot of negative things to the American heartland and workers in general. Created a wide open opportunity for a populist demagogue like Trump.
cachukis
(2,314 posts)TheFarseer
(9,341 posts)We have lobbyists with corporate dollars all over Capital Hill that want to outsource jobs. If we have politicians using public funding for elections and have to actually listen to voters, we dont get garbage like NAFTA but I know Im living in a fantasy world.
cachukis
(2,314 posts)Recycle_Guru
(2,973 posts)MyNameIsJonas
(744 posts)Manufacturing was far more impacted by the economic rise of China than anything with Mexico.
In fact, you may also blame Apple. In the 2000s, they became the most valuable company in the US and while the technical aspect of the company, marketing and design, was handled in the US, the manufacturing was done in China.
That led other companies to adopt it.
China remains the biggest reason for this economic shift and that has nothing to do with NAFTA.
Now the WTO? That's a different story. Their being admitted in 2001 is likely a big reason manufacturing saw a nosedive in the US during the 2000s.
leftstreet
(36,128 posts)Honestly I think that debate would eventually hurt Gore more than his people realized. Of course, this was back in the day when people actually watched those things
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)"Too early to say." I'm waiting on those side agreements about workers' rights and environmental rules. They should be concluded just any day now, I think.
cachukis
(2,314 posts)doc03
(35,599 posts)Recycle_Guru
(2,973 posts)NAFTA was in the works well before Clinton was elected--I just don't know why Dems ceded that territory so completely. They were still in majority in Congress and had the WH.
I really feel that hurt a lot of communities.
The fruits of that are what caused so many WTO protests in 1999 through early 2000's in the US.
twodogsbarking
(10,333 posts)Recycle_Guru
(2,973 posts)twodogsbarking
(10,333 posts)betsuni
(26,235 posts)the main cause of manufacturing job losses, isn't it?
I'm old enough to remember that by the early '80s in my hometown and surrounding areas factories, local brewery, famous dairy, the department store and many other businesses in the local shopping mall had all closed. Big box stores along the highway replaced small businesses downtown. The middle class was in trouble. Michael Moore's "Roger & Me" about General Motors outsourcing automobile jobs was released in 1987. All before NAFTA.
Trade deals didn't force companies to outsource, did they? Why do populists blame trade deals of the '90s for so much and not corporations? Or consumers, who often choose lower-priced imported goods? This is often used by populists to blame Democrats for things that began long ago. If anyone can present facts supporting the belief that NAFTA was the beginning of the loss of manufacturing jobs in the U.S., please post it.
Recycle_Guru
(2,973 posts)one of the key calculations of sourcing domestically vs. internationally is total landed cost. As businesses see things like tariffs getting in the way of going to a lower cost region for labor inputs, they lobby governments for trade deals.
My dad lost his union job in early 1970's at a shoe company in St. Louis because they moved mfg to Asia. For certain goods, it made financial sense for factory managers to make the move even with tariffs and shippng costs.
NAFTA allowed for low wage manufacturing close to the US geographically which was especially helpful for outsourcing large heavy items which would cost too much to ship from Asia (washers, dryers, etc).
It really accelerated the process. From Mexico, certain products made sense to move as far as China and Taiwan. EU followed suit with further removal of trade barriers. WTO soon followed after that.
betsuni
(26,235 posts)"The people of Detroit know the real cost of Hillary Clinton's free trade policies." As if Detroit wasn't in trouble before 1993 (BLAME DEMOCRATS!).
And "Hillary might want to apologize to the families who lost loved ones in Iraq. Or to the massive levels of destabilization we are now seeing in that region. Or Senator Clinton might want to apologize to the millions of workers in this country who lost their jobs because of the trade agreements she supported."
Can someone post facts that manufacturing job losses were made much worse by trade deals and this was because of Democrats? Before NAFTA and after? This wasn't the fault of corporations and their greed?
betsuni
(26,235 posts)Recycle_Guru
(2,973 posts)I am telling you reduction of trade barriers for most goods across global trade necessarily reduced wages in the US and exported jobs that had been higher paying.
We can buy electronic and plastic crap much more cheaply today, but we don't have a strong base of higher paying manufacturing jobs.
Most US manufacturing today is in support of new product introduction or regulated sectors such as medical, military and aerospace.
Virtually all high volume manufacturing has moved to Asia or Mexico.
ExWhoDoesntCare
(4,741 posts)Some people don't like the sound of reality like you just posted.
Recycle_Guru
(2,973 posts)🤣 I'll watch my 6
Mossfern
(2,649 posts)Celerity
(44,517 posts)The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) was replaced by the United States-Mexico-Canada (USMCA) agreement as of July 1, 2020. While it accomplished some good things for the economy, NAFTA also had six major weaknesses. These disadvantages had a negative impact on both American and Mexican workers and even the environment.
https://www.thebalancemoney.com/disadvantages-of-nafta-3306273
U.S. Jobs Were Lost
Since labor is cheaper in Mexico, many manufacturing industries withdrew part of their production from the high-cost United States. Between 1994 and 2010, the U.S. trade deficits with Mexico totaled $97.2 billion. In the same period, 682,900 U.S. jobs went to Mexico. But 116,400 of those jobs were displaced after 2007, meaning the 2008 financial crisis may have played a role. Almost 80% of the losses were in manufacturing. The hardest-hit states were California, New York, Michigan, and Texas. They had high concentrations of the industries that moved plants to Mexico. These industries included motor vehicles, textiles, computers, and electrical appliances.
U.S. Wages Were Suppressed
Not all companies in these industries moved to Mexico, but some used the threat of moving as leverage against union-organizing drives. When workers had to choose between joining the union and losing the factory, workers chose the plant. Without union support, the workers had little bargaining power. That suppressed wage growth. According to Kate Bronfenbrenner of Cornell University, many companies in industries that were moving to Mexico used the threat of closing the factory. Between 1993 and 1999, 64% of U.S. manufacturing firms in those industries used that threat. By 1999, the rate had grown to 71%.
Mexico's Farmers Were Put Out of Business
Due to NAFTA, Mexico lost nearly 1.3 million farm jobs from 1994 to 2004. The 2002 Farm Bill subsidized U.S. agribusiness by as much as 40% of net farm income. When NAFTA removed trade tariffs, companies exported corn and other grains to Mexico below cost. Rural Mexican farmers could not compete. At the same time, Mexico reduced its subsidies to farmers from 33.2% of total farm income in 1990 to 13.2% in 2001. Most of those subsidies went to Mexico's large farms. These changes meant many small Mexican farmers were put out of business by highly subsidized American farmers.
Maquiladora Workers Were Exploited
NAFTA expanded the maquiladora program by removing tariffs. This program allows United States-owned companies to employ Mexican workers near the border. They cheaply assemble products for export back into the United States. The program grew to employ 30% of Mexico's labor force. These worksites were known for abusing worker rights, with reports of workdays lasting 12 hours or more and women being subjected to pregnancy test when they applied for jobs.
snip
SOURCES
The Balance uses only high-quality sources, including peer-reviewed studies, to support the facts within our articles. Read our editorial process to learn more about how we fact-check and keep our content accurate, reliable, and trustworthy.
Economic Policy Institute. Heading South.
Economic Policy Institute.. The High Price of Free Trade.
Cornell University ILR School. "Organizing in the NAFTA Environment: How Companies Use 'Free Trade' to Stop Unions."
Cornell University ILR School. Uneasy Terrain: The Impact of Capital Mobility on Workers, Wages, and Union Organizing, Page 16.
Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. NAFTAs Promise and Reality, Page 6.
Cato Institute. Reforming Federal Farm Policies.
Research Center Alternative. The World Economy Today: Major Trends and Developments, Page 302.
Congressional Research Service. U.S.-Mexico Economic Relations: Trends, Issues, and Implications, Pages 78.
Bureau of Transportation Statistics. U.S. Trade with Canada and Mexico.
Inter Press Service. Trade-Americas: NAFTA, an Engine for Unequal Growth.
Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. NAFTAs Promise and Reality, Page 7.
Cornell University ILR School. North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) Implementation: The Future of Commercial Trucking Across the Mexican Border.
Office of Inspector General, U.S. Department of Transportation. Status Report on Nafta Crossborder Trucking Demonstration Project, Page 43.
Federation of American Scientists. Status of Mexican Trucks in the United States: Frequently Asked Questions, Page 7.
FMCSA. Commercial Zones United States/Mexico Ports of Entry.
SMU Scholar. The Cross-Border NAFTA Truck Debate, Pages 285-286.
Congressional Research Service. NAFTA Renegotiation and the Proposed United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA), Summary Page.
Congressional Research Service. NAFTA Renegotiation and the Proposed United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA), Page 14.
Congressional Research Service. "The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA)."
Federal Register. "North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA)."
Office of the United States Trade Representative. "United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement."
Recycle_Guru
(2,973 posts)Just_Vote_Dem
(2,850 posts)I might not agree with you on everything, but your posts always make me think!
dalton99a
(82,121 posts)Recycle_Guru
(2,973 posts)tiredtoo
(2,949 posts)"Clinton was the best republican the democrats ever elected'
RSherman
(576 posts)After NAFTA was enacted and it was apparent that Mexican residents came out on the losing side, NYSUT used to offer trips to the border in conjunction with the Capital District Labor Coalition.
Mexican farmers were urged to sell their land and take jobs in American factories in Mexico for good wages/benefits. Those jobs did not live up to the hype.
Here is more info. about the coalition and a report that can be accessed, written by youth who attended one of these border trips:
https://www.laborreligion.org/
https://search.library.wisc.edu/catalog/999994560402121
Border witness : youth confront NAFTA : a photographic essay
AUTHOR / CREATOR
Casey, Maureen
AVAILABLE AS
Physical
SUMMARY
A textual and pictorial record of travel by young residents of New York State, organized by the New York State Labor-Religion Coalition, to northern Mexico for the purpose of observing the social and economic conditions of Mexican life under the North American Free Trade Agreement. Photographs were taken during the travels of a delegation in Feb. 2001.
doc03
(35,599 posts)gave the Republicans something to hang around Democrats neck for the last several decades.
Democrats lost the Blue Wall union support ever since. I think supporting NAFTA was the single
worst political mistake of the century for Democrats.
Recycle_Guru
(2,973 posts)EllieBC
(3,125 posts)I remember plenty of people saying it was a bad idea.
I dont think its any big deal to say Perot was correct on NAFTA. He wasnt correct on anything else but he was correct on that.
Demsrule86
(69,096 posts)Fuck NAFTA...you want to see the results go to Gary Indiana or parts of Detroit...
Polybius
(15,728 posts)Forget the shafta, say no to NAFTA.