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ColinC

(8,536 posts)
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 10:43 AM Feb 2024

"I'm an American doctor who went to Gaza. What I saw wasn't war. It was annihilation."



Entering southern Gaza on Jan. 29, where many have fled from the north, felt like the first pages of a dystopian novel. Our ears were numb with the constant humming of what I was told were the surveillance drones that circled constantly. Our noses were consumed with the stench of 1 million displaced humans living in close proximity without adequate sanitation. Our eyes got lost in the sea of tents. We stayed at a guest house in Rafah. Our first night was cold, and many of us couldn’t sleep. We stood on the balcony listening to the bombs, and seeing the smoke rise from Khan Yunis.


As we approached the European Gaza Hospital the next day, there were rows of tents that lined and blocked the streets. Many Palestinians gravitated toward this and other hospitals hoping it would represent a sanctuary from the violence — they were wrong.

People also spilled into the hospital: living in hallways, stairwell corridors and even storage closets. The once-wide walkways designed by the European Union to accommodate the busy traffic of medical staff, stretchers and equipment were now reduced to a single-file passageway. On either side, blankets hung from the ceiling to cordon off small areas for entire families, offering a sliver of privacy. A hospital designed to accommodate about 300 patients was now struggling to care for more than 1,000 patients and hundreds more seeking refuge.

There were a limited number of local surgeons available. We were told that many had been killed or arrested, their whereabouts or even their existence unknown. Others were trapped in occupied areas in the north or nearby places where it was too risky to travel to the hospital. There was only one local plastic surgeon left and he covered the hospital 24/7. His home had been destroyed, so he lived in the hospital, and was able to stuff all of his personal possessions into two small hand bags. This narrative became all too common among the remaining staff at the hospital. This surgeon was lucky, because his wife and daughter were still alive, although almost everyone else working in the hospital was mourning the loss of their loved ones.

.





https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2024-02-16/rafah-gaza-hospitals-surgery-israel-bombing-ground-offensive-children
88 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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"I'm an American doctor who went to Gaza. What I saw wasn't war. It was annihilation." (Original Post) ColinC Feb 2024 OP
Hard to imagine trying to run a hospital and provide any but the most basic level of medical care in these conditions dutch777 Feb 2024 #1
K&R PatSeg Feb 2024 #2
Totally inhumane. Lonestarblue Feb 2024 #3
It is effin evil malaise Feb 2024 #4
GD Fucking HAMAS is Fucking Evil and Cha Feb 2024 #34
Gang rape/Mass murder. Let he who is without guilt cast the first stone. Chainfire Feb 2024 #46
HAMAS wanted this to Happen. Cha Feb 2024 #47
It is your claimn that Hamas wanted to see the population exterminated and the land laid to waste? Chainfire Feb 2024 #51
Nutty-yahoo is the modern-day Milosevic peppertree Feb 2024 #5
I hate to break it to th LA times but that is exactly what war is Ray Bruns Feb 2024 #6
You are confusing apartheid and genocide with war ColinC Feb 2024 #7
You are confusing who is doing what in the war. former9thward Feb 2024 #8
Who is doing what in war? ColinC Feb 2024 #10
They send rockets into civilian areas on a random basis. former9thward Feb 2024 #48
Israel is murdering children, starving them and depriving them of sanitary water ColinC Feb 2024 #73
I am confusing nothing. War is horror blood disease and death. Ray Bruns Feb 2024 #13
War is horrible. Yet again, this is not war. ColinC Feb 2024 #17
Hamas said it's a war. Israel is responding Arazi Feb 2024 #28
"War generally requires push and pull of territory by both parties" Ray Bruns Feb 2024 #32
It requires no such thing EX500rider Feb 2024 #50
The vast majority of those conflicts are not war ColinC Feb 2024 #61
I think the Iraqi's and Afghans would not agree it was not war EX500rider Feb 2024 #64
Much as the Koreans and Phillipinos would likely consider their occupations war. ColinC Feb 2024 #68
The Japanese invasion of the Philippines was certainly war EX500rider Feb 2024 #70
I am not referring to the Korean civil War or the invasion of the phillipines ColinC Feb 2024 #71
"Just needless killing on behalf of one side."... Oct 7th keithbvadu2 Feb 2024 #86
Is Netanyahu breeding more terrorists than he's killing? Martin Eden Feb 2024 #14
Why are you saying Palestinians are singularly bloodthirsty? Arazi Feb 2024 #15
I said no such thing. Martin Eden Feb 2024 #16
Yes, you did Arazi Feb 2024 #24
Historically this is a trend. It's a slippery slope argument right now, ColinC Feb 2024 #31
Now you're comparing Palestinians to ISIS??!! Arazi Feb 2024 #36
Actually let's start at Israel violating the Oslo Accords following Sharon's death ColinC Feb 2024 #37
Or how about we go back to the Six Day War? Arazi Feb 2024 #45
We are talking about Palestine so let's stay there. ColinC Feb 2024 #72
The British bear responsibility, no doubt Arazi Feb 2024 #77
It really isn't another topic considering they have never not been occupied and the territory ColinC Feb 2024 #80
This "Trend" Zeitghost Feb 2024 #39
No, I didn't Martin Eden Feb 2024 #69
Thank you for the detailed response Arazi Feb 2024 #75
I suspect his plan is to render that point moot Bettie Feb 2024 #62
Martin, your post is both eloquent and truthful. Earth-shine Feb 2024 #76
Thank You Martin Eden Feb 2024 #78
Ray you are 100% correct. Irish_Dem Feb 2024 #21
So, you don't agree w/ the concept of War Crimes al bupp Feb 2024 #49
My personal feelings have nothing to do with the fact that war is annihilation. Irish_Dem Feb 2024 #57
I think justifying war crimes by way excusing attacks on civilians "the way things are" al bupp Feb 2024 #67
K&R hay rick Feb 2024 #9
Watched an interview with him this morning Nanjeanne Feb 2024 #11
Nah, it's war. A war Hamas instigated knowing full well the consequences Arazi Feb 2024 #12
When was the last time Hamas attacked Israelis or reacquired lost territory? ColinC Feb 2024 #18
10/7 is just "something that happened months ago"? maxsolomon Feb 2024 #20
Again I find it interesting how folks justify indefinite killing ColinC Feb 2024 #25
Hamas said it's a war. That's *their* word Arazi Feb 2024 #22
Does that make sense to you? ColinC Feb 2024 #27
Hamas is a death cult. Nothing makes sense Arazi Feb 2024 #33
I'm not talking about war. I'm talking about needless disproportionate killing ColinC Feb 2024 #35
You think Israel cares what the world thinks?! Arazi Feb 2024 #40
Justifying war crimes by "that's just war" isn't a very convincing argument ColinC Feb 2024 #85
"because a terrorist organization" EX500rider Feb 2024 #54
Yeah one GD thing HAMAS Cha Feb 2024 #30
It has been happening since the day Zeitghost Feb 2024 #44
You seem unaware of how war works. The Pearl Harbor attack killed 68 US civilians EX500rider Feb 2024 #52
Japan was consistently acquiring territory while losing little ColinC Feb 2024 #65
"Annihilation" is what Hamas baited Israel into. maxsolomon Feb 2024 #19
I find it a strange mindset that is frankly incredibly human ColinC Feb 2024 #23
"Israel has probably killed far more people in retaliation for the killing of less than 2,000 people, than the US.. EX500rider Feb 2024 #55
I stand corrected ColinC Feb 2024 #58
Who "baited" who? David__77 Feb 2024 #38
Ah, the chicken and egg. maxsolomon Feb 2024 #41
As many here point out: needless bloodshed is a part of war ColinC Feb 2024 #88
HAMAS Started This Fucking War Cha Feb 2024 #26
What do the innocent Palestinians whose families are murdered by the IDF have to do with Hamas? ColinC Feb 2024 #29
HAMAS Invaded Israel and Slaughtered Innocent Israelis & Cha Feb 2024 #43
Again. I don't understand what that has to do with the people being murdered by the IDF? ColinC Feb 2024 #53
What do the innocent civilians in all wars have to do with their government? EX500rider Feb 2024 #56
Innocent civilians in all wars are not necessarily explicitly targeted. ColinC Feb 2024 #59
They do not appear to be to me, quite the opposite EX500rider Feb 2024 #63
and Israel is morally responsible for continuing this war and killing tens of thousands of civilians DBoon Feb 2024 #42
Britain started the war when they invaded and occupied Palestine ColinC Feb 2024 #87
The Warsaw Ghetto pfitz59 Feb 2024 #60
Wrong in so many ways. madaboutharry Feb 2024 #81
Christiane Amanpour had some troubling videos on moniss Feb 2024 #66
I wonder if they were anywhere near an Israeli border kibbutz on 10/7? Patton French Feb 2024 #74
Denigrating and belittling victims of the Holocaust madaboutharry Feb 2024 #79
How is highlighting people's suffering denigrating victims of the holocaust? ColinC Feb 2024 #82
You need to read your own thread. madaboutharry Feb 2024 #83
Once again ColinC Feb 2024 #84

dutch777

(3,111 posts)
1. Hard to imagine trying to run a hospital and provide any but the most basic level of medical care in these conditions
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 11:28 AM
Feb 2024

I retired a few years ago working the facilities side of hospital administration in a 350 bed hospital located outside of Seattle. One of my charges was emergency preparedness with the most serious threat being a very major earthquake. Our hospital was one of newer vintage and on relatively stable soils is one of the few in the region expected to make it thru a major earthquake and still have some level of functionality. I was amazed that the medical staff just assumed and planned that, once they rode out the earthquake, they would be able to conduct orderly triage of the expected earthquake injured that would gradually show up. I tried to get folks to understand that in all likelihood while damage to roads and bridges and other infrastructure needed to reach the hospital and a finite supply of ambulances and medevac helicopters would slow the patient arrival, everyone that could walk in would and folks who could drive earthquake damaged roads would bring themselves or others in by private vehicle. A trickle would within hours quickly become a torrent. While the medical care itself was not my charge, making sure the campus and facility would support the intense operational need was. My biggest fears were, first, that the ground heave from a major earthquake would sever the utility's water supply lines. Try running a proper hospital operation with no running water. Hand sanitizer and rubbing alcohol get you only so far and meaningful resupply after an earthquake is likely a week or more away. Second concern was the number of family and friends that would come with the injured. There is finite spare space in a hospital and waiting rooms and lounges that must become overflow triage space and family clogged hallways slow medical response and supply. Even enough parking would be an issue if we could somehow force excess folks to shelter there if that is how they came to us. And finally, just as we are seeing in Gaza, hospitals are seen as refuges and they are under bad circumstances, war and major earthquakes being most notable, the last places that likely have power, maybe water and food. So where are people, injured or not, when all the local infrastructure is damaged and not working, going to go? In Washington State the state level emergency response coordinator was ultimately the military under civilian guidance. I urged our hospital leadership to put on the table with the state a request in the case of a major event for immediate National Guard support to help manage the logistics of the crowds that I was sure were going to show and not want to leave. The first line medical folks are great people, but they are human and there is only so much they can do and the pressure they must feel in these sorts of situations must be unrelenting and off the scale.

Cha

(299,389 posts)
34. GD Fucking HAMAS is Fucking Evil and
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:31 PM
Feb 2024

They Started this SHIT WAR Killing Babies. They are NOT fucking freedom fighters. Rape and Gang Rape is Not resistance.

HAMAS kills their Own Children.. some fucking Freedom Fighters

 

Chainfire

(17,757 posts)
46. Gang rape/Mass murder. Let he who is without guilt cast the first stone.
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:56 PM
Feb 2024

Israel was the "victim" in October. Gaza has been ever since. It is not justice.

 

Chainfire

(17,757 posts)
51. It is your claimn that Hamas wanted to see the population exterminated and the land laid to waste?
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 04:32 PM
Feb 2024

Since that is what Hamas wated, then that Justifies Israel's slaughter the civilian population and destroy the housing and infastructure. I mean, "We are only doing what they wanted...." How kind of Israel...

I dont think that I can respond to such nonesense and remain within the rules of the forum, so the floor is yours.

peppertree

(22,107 posts)
5. Nutty-yahoo is the modern-day Milosevic
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 01:10 PM
Feb 2024

Both were also chummy with Putin.



"Can you believe it, Vlad? I genocide just as much as you - but they're stumbling all over themselves to throw me more money!"

"What a country."

Ray Bruns

(4,201 posts)
6. I hate to break it to th LA times but that is exactly what war is
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 01:16 PM
Feb 2024

Maybe someone should pick up a history book.

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
10. Who is doing what in war?
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 01:48 PM
Feb 2024

Are you suggesting Palestinians are oppressing Israelis on a daily basis consistently? If so, how?

former9thward

(32,402 posts)
48. They send rockets into civilian areas on a random basis.
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 04:11 PM
Feb 2024

You may think that is ok or eve support it but it is not ok. Palestinians have rejected every peace proposal given to them over the last 76 years. Whether by the UN, Israel, U.S. presidents, other countries, etc.

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
73. Israel is murdering children, starving them and depriving them of sanitary water
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 11:34 PM
Feb 2024

You may think that is okay or even support it but it is a clear violation of international law. Palestine has been occupied by a western power for 107 years and every “peace deal” offered denied their right to exist. With the exception of the Oslo Accords which were sabatoged by Israel and violated early on.

Ray Bruns

(4,201 posts)
13. I am confusing nothing. War is horror blood disease and death.
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 02:09 PM
Feb 2024

Always has been and always will be. It’s why it should be avoided if at all possible.

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
17. War is horrible. Yet again, this is not war.
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 02:46 PM
Feb 2024

War generally requires push and pull of territory by both parties. There is no push and pull. Just needless killing on behalf of one side.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
28. Hamas said it's a war. Israel is responding
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:16 PM
Feb 2024
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-says-it-staged-massacres-to-cause-permanent-state-of-war-on-israels-borders/amp/

The goal of Hamas’s October 7 massacres in southern Israel was to “change the entire equation,” bring permanent war to Israel’s borders and renew attention to the Palestinian cause, a senior member of the terror group’s politburo in Qatar said.

“What could change the equation was a great act, and without a doubt, it was known that the reaction to this great act would be big,” Khalil al-Hayya told The New York Times in an interview published Wednesday. “We had to tell people that the Palestinian cause would not die.”

Ray Bruns

(4,201 posts)
32. "War generally requires push and pull of territory by both parties"
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:24 PM
Feb 2024

Where did you get that nonsense? Just because one side is doing all the pushing doesn’t mean it’s not a war.

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
61. The vast majority of those conflicts are not war
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 05:45 PM
Feb 2024

As much as unjustified failed occupations. Kinda like the one we are discussing.

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
68. Much as the Koreans and Phillipinos would likely consider their occupations war.
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 07:06 PM
Feb 2024

Alas they are typically not considered as such.

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
71. I am not referring to the Korean civil War or the invasion of the phillipines
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 11:19 PM
Feb 2024

I am talking strictly of the Japanese occupations following the invasions of the Philippines and Korea.

The 1950s does not play into these events.



Martin Eden

(12,956 posts)
14. Is Netanyahu breeding more terrorists than he's killing?
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 02:15 PM
Feb 2024

That question can't be answered with any certainty, but I think it's relevant if the long term objective is to reduce the threat of terrorism.

I think we can be fairly certain that a large percent of Palestinian survivors in Gaza have suffered both physical and emotional trauma, with loved ones killed by Israeli bombardments. I think it likely that hatred and thirst for revenge will swell the numbers of eager recruits for Hamas or whatever takes its place.

In other words, I think Netanyahu's victory will be pyrrhic at best. I also suspect his motives are not confined to quelling terrorism. It's no secret Netanyahu and his hardline coalition oppose any two state solution. Their long term objective is a greater Israel encompassing all the promised land.

Given the projected demographics of a single state with a healthy Palestinian population, in a few generations Jews could be a minority in the Jewish State.

That development is totally unacceptable to Netanyahu and his ilk, which means the Palestinian problem needs to be solved. One option would be an apartheid state. The other is ethnic cleansing and/or forced dispora.

Looks like we're seeing the latter option in action.

If you point out the horrible atrocity of Oct 7 and argue that Hamas would do the same or worse to the Jewish population if it could, I'd say you're absolutely right.

There is no end in sight to this conflict, and I can't offer a viable solution.

But let's not pretend Netanyahu's military campaign is entirely justified as a purely defensive measure to quell Palestinian terrorism. The long term objective of a Greater Israel is at work here.

One can argue the necessity of that for the survival of the Jewish State, but one must also acknowledge that involves disposessing the Palestinians of their former homeland.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
15. Why are you saying Palestinians are singularly bloodthirsty?
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 02:27 PM
Feb 2024

You do realize that they’d be an anomaly if they decide to live on as a state committed to terrorism in perpetuity.

We killed and maimed millions in Vietnam. Have they become jihadis bent on “terrorism” with the conclusion of the war? Let’s not even pretend that Cambodia doesn’t have justifiable reasons to destroy us and yet our countries are fast friends…

The Japanese endured two nuclear attacks by us. Why haven’t multiple generations grown up committed to “hatred and thirst for revenge?” Do most Japanese hate us? (Hint: no)

The fact is, a population dedicated to perpetuating a grievance culture of terrorism and revenge would be singular in the history of global conflicts. Why do you think the Palestinians would be the first? 🤔

I find this argument to be quite pejorative towards Palestinians tbh..

Martin Eden

(12,956 posts)
16. I said no such thing.
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 02:37 PM
Feb 2024

I can provide a longer explanation this evening, but my lunch break is over.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
24. Yes, you did
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:10 PM
Feb 2024
14. Is Netanyahu breeding more terrorists than he's killing?
12:15 PM
Snip

… I think it likely the hatred and thirst for revenge will swell the numbers of eager recruits for Hamas or whatever takes its place.


This isn’t the first time I’ve heard it stated that Israel is to blame for Hamas’ terrorism or that they’re going to create “more terrorists” by taking up arms to fight Hamas’ instigation of war (Hamas’ words)

I look forward to your clarification since this reeks of gross assumptions about Palestinians. I’ll be happy to be proven wrong

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
31. Historically this is a trend. It's a slippery slope argument right now,
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:20 PM
Feb 2024

But there is strong evidence that upending an entire society will breed hatred towards those that are responsible for doing so.

ISIS is probably the most recent example of such a trend.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
36. Now you're comparing Palestinians to ISIS??!!
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:35 PM
Feb 2024

That’s… pretty fucking grotesque and ugly.

And it’s not Israel that’s upended Gaza “society”. Thats revisionist history of the worst sort. The Palestinians voted for a death cult for a government, maybe start there…

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
37. Actually let's start at Israel violating the Oslo Accords following Sharon's death
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:39 PM
Feb 2024

Which electing Hamas was a direct response to once settlements were being forcefully set up in the West Bank and Palestinians being forcefully relocated by IDF.

To say Israel has no responsibility for this is the epitome of revisionism.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
45. Or how about we go back to the Six Day War?
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:53 PM
Feb 2024

Or the multitude of unprovoked attacks on Israel by Lebanon? Or the many attacks on Israel by its neighbors like Egypt?

Or the Holocaust?

Or the expulsion of Jews from Russia? Or Spain?

How far would you like to go while tracing history that’s shaped a nation?

I’ve been explicit that Netanyahu and the entire rightwing of Israel shares blame. Does anyone dispute that? I’m not. Fuck that guy

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
72. We are talking about Palestine so let's stay there.
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 11:25 PM
Feb 2024

Perhaps the British occupation of Palestine would be the reasonable place to begin as far as modern history is concerned.

Palestine has been occupied for 107 years. If this is a war, it was started in 1917 by Britain. If it is not a war because the wars to invade the territory have already been completed, then the conflict is merely an occupation of a population that does not want to be occupied.

What I’m saying of course is that if this is war, it was started by the British and hasn’t ended. If it isn’t a war, then it is simply an occupation by western powers of a population that refuses to be occupied.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
77. The British bear responsibility, no doubt
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 12:15 AM
Feb 2024

Kashmir too but that’s another topic.

Hamas is a relatively new creation (in the past 35 years) with an explicit charter to exterminate all Jews. They’ve said they want war. They instigated a war. I take them at their word. They’re getting a war. The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank appears to have figured out how to cope with their Jewish neighbors despite some serious issues with illegal settlements. You can’t just ignore the very different results of the same people living under extremely similar situations…

And if you’re going to go back into past history, you also cant ignore the fact that Jews, with thousands of years of generational trauma, are trying to co-exist next door with neighbors that have been trying to wipe them off the earth almost every day of their lives with daily rocket attacks, intifadas, terrorism, wars, pogroms etc. This has been their lived existence since Jews became a thing thousands of years ago, continuing in Israel today, and they’re not going to be bullied any longer.

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
80. It really isn't another topic considering they have never not been occupied and the territory
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 12:41 AM
Feb 2024

was simply passed on to somebody else to do the occupying. The war(or occupation -whichever term you prefer) has continued for 107 years. It didn’t begin with Hamas and likely won’t end with them either.Sticking to modern history and the beginning of the current conflict requires us to start at the British occupation and consider the conflict in terms of their illegal occupation passed onto a new occupying force.

The issue of involving Jewish people on the tail end of the holocaust is really separate from the regional politics that defined the conflict -until the political decision was made to arbitrarily bring another large group of people into a conflicted territory, complicating an already messy geopolitical clusterfuck.

Zeitghost

(3,975 posts)
39. This "Trend"
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:43 PM
Feb 2024

Seems to only be present in populations in a certain area who practice a fundamentalist/radical version of a certain religion.

The US and its allies utterly destroyed Germany and Japan, subjecting it's civilian populations to immense bombing campaigns and the only use of nuclear weapons as an act of war. And yet we are on the best of terms with each country today.

Relations with Vietnam and Cambodia have both been normalized and Americans are welcomed there with open arms.

Countless other international examples can be made.


So let's stop blaming Israel for being a target for the last 80 years and instead focus on radical Islam and it's hatred of the west in general and Israel/Jews in particular. They have been quite clear in their stated goal of eliminating Israel and the Jewish people from the face of the earth. Maybe it's time we start believing them.

Martin Eden

(12,956 posts)
69. No, I didn't
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 11:00 PM
Feb 2024

Nowhere in my post did I explicitly state or imply, in the least, that "Palestinians are singularly bloodthirsty."

In order for someone to logically infer such intent on my part would require a written passage in my post comparing Palestinians to other groups in similar situations who do not have a long record of terrorist attacks. I would be hard pressed to find a situation sufficiently analogous (within the historical context of the Middle East and the holy city of Jerusalem) to the generational oppression of Palestinians by the state of Israel, systematically dispossessing them of their homeland.

Such analogies are always flawed, at least to some extent. I feel it necessary to point out that in your first response to me you cited the example of our war in Vietnam and that they did not commit acts of terrorism against us after the American military finally left their country. At face value your analogy is more "pejorative" towards the Palestinians, since the Vietnamese refrained from terrorism whereas the Palestinians have not. However, I don't think that was your intent. And apparently it's necessary to point out that our conflict with the Vietnamese essentially ended with our departure, while the I/P conflict goes on.

I understand you took issue with my question citing the possibility that the slaughter and trauma inflicted upon the Palestinian people by the Israeli military could recruit more terrorists among survivors filled with hatred and a thirst for revenge for their family members who were killed.

I was taken somewhat aback by your inference that I was somehow trying to paint Palestinians as "singularly bloodthirsty." On the contrary, I believe hatred and revenge are a natural human response to seeing family members including women and children blown to bits when all they're trying to do is flee the violence and live their lives. Of course, you and I would never know how we would feel and respond to such devastating trauma, and I hope we never will.

But history, as well as current events, have shown that some groups engage in terrorism with far less provocation and personal trauma. For example, rightwing acts of domestic terrorism in our own country have been carried out by people who have lives of comfort and freedom compared to the horrors experienced by Palestinians in Gaza.

If what I've written here has not convinced you I had no intent to imply, whatsoever, that Palestinians are more inherently inclined towards terrorism, then I really don't know what else to say.


Peace,
Martin

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
75. Thank you for the detailed response
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 11:54 PM
Feb 2024

Reading more closely, I definitely inferred your intent and you never explicitly say it.

I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

I’ve just seen it said elsewhere that Israeli actions will spawn more terrorists and I just hate seeing it. It’s so unfair. Thanks for clarifying

Peace!

 

Earth-shine

(4,044 posts)
76. Martin, your post is both eloquent and truthful.
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 12:07 AM
Feb 2024

There's no doubt in my mind that the continued bombing of Gaza will result in more fighters for the next generation of Hamas, or whatever it will be called in 10 or 20 years.

War and terrorism are the enemies.

Hamas wants this war. Bibi wants this war. Both have to go.

So much easier to start these things than end them.

Martin Eden

(12,956 posts)
78. Thank You
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 12:23 AM
Feb 2024

It's a very complicated difficult issue, and yet simple on the fundamental level that war and terrorism are the enemies of humanity.

al bupp

(2,216 posts)
49. So, you don't agree w/ the concept of War Crimes
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 04:21 PM
Feb 2024

All's fair, then and only might makes right, right? I know an ex-president of Serbian that would agree.

Irish_Dem

(50,513 posts)
57. My personal feelings have nothing to do with the fact that war is annihilation.
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 04:43 PM
Feb 2024

Facts are facts.

I grew up as a military kid, two parents in the USAF.
Father flew combat in three wars.
Mother a nurse during the Korean War.
US Navy uncle killed at Battle of Guadalcanal.
My great aunt watched her physician fiancé die a painful death from being gassed in WWI.

I heard a lot growing up.
I am not naive, I know what happens on both sides.
Also I am a WWII buff. Takes a strong stomach.

By the way making ad hominem attacks means a weak argument.

al bupp

(2,216 posts)
67. I think justifying war crimes by way excusing attacks on civilians "the way things are"
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 06:45 PM
Feb 2024

Is a weak argument. Sure, it's been done before. In my opinion means have never been justified by ends. In fact, they tend to make things worse for everyone.

Yes, this includes the fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo and the use of nukes in WWII, as well as the use of gas in the trenches of WWI, poxxy blankets given to natives while endlessly breaking treaties, the carpet bombings and village burning in SE Asia, not mention the funding of rapacious contras and murderous dictators in Central America or the torturing prisoners at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo more recently.

Such things are repugnant. I seem to recall when progressives looked askance at them and we marched in the street to stop it, as many in Israel are doing now.

Nanjeanne

(5,061 posts)
11. Watched an interview with him this morning
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 02:03 PM
Feb 2024

on Democracy Now. This is heartbreaking.

[link:https://www.democracynow.org/2024/2/20/dr_irfan_galaria_gaza_hospital|]

” Dr. Galaria, who has worked in conflict zones around the world, says he and his team witnessed “a collateral humanitarian crisis of an unimaginable scale,” involving the “deliberate attempt” to both target civilians with military assault and to deprive them of aid. “I thought I was going to be prepared, but I was not prepared for what I saw,” he says.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
12. Nah, it's war. A war Hamas instigated knowing full well the consequences
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 02:06 PM
Feb 2024

Is this the first war you (or this author) have ever paid attention to?

Hamas is a death cult. They want women and children to suffer and die. The more the better. That’s not on Israel, that’s on Hamas that has chosen to fight from apartment buildings, mosques, schools, and hospitals.

Israel ain’t playing. They told the world they’re going to do what they think they must to be secure.

It’s a war. They’re each different yet the same. A horror.

But of course those wars don’t involve Jews so nobody’s going to go cry about the suffering and slaughtered civilians in those places…

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
18. When was the last time Hamas attacked Israelis or reacquired lost territory?
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 02:50 PM
Feb 2024

If it was today, I would agree this is war. If it was October 7, this is simply needless disproportionate retaliation for something that happened months ago. It is not war. It is systematic murder by what is at least debatably an apartheid state.

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
27. Does that make sense to you?
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:16 PM
Feb 2024

“Let’s kill countless numbers of innocent civilians because a terrorist organization said they are at war”?

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
33. Hamas is a death cult. Nothing makes sense
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:28 PM
Feb 2024

Furthermore, you’d be person number eleventy billion whose lamented the senselessness of war.

There’s reams of ink spilled on the topic.

Surely no American is so naive about the futility of war … we’re the masters of senseless war. Joe Biden and Tony Blinken turned themselves inside out publicly and privately trying to convince Israel to take a different route. Alas, they are not in Israeli leadership directing this particular shitshow and Israel is in no mood to listen to anyone.

8000 ridiculous UN resolutions and hearings slamming Israel singularly for the stupidest shit over the past few decades while letting other FAR WORSE conflicts slide means they’re out of fucks to give. The international community pats itself on the back for slamming Israel again - they’ve turned into a parody- literally the proverbial boy who cried wolf too many times. Israel doesn’t give a shit what anyone else thinks anymore.

Never again (for Israel) literally is their battle cry.

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
35. I'm not talking about war. I'm talking about needless disproportionate killing
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:33 PM
Feb 2024

Which is mutually exclusive of war and can happen in and outside of war.

Murdering and specifically targeting countless civilians is never necessary to fight war -and is clearly outside of the rules of engagement and the Geneva conventions. The ICC is ruling on this and I imagine Israel may not have much of a leg to stand on morally or legally once that ruling comes out.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
40. You think Israel cares what the world thinks?!
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:45 PM
Feb 2024

Smdh…

They’ve responded to an attack on their country.

Israel is made up of a population that has endured millenia of pogroms, slaughters, mass expulsions, torture. There are people alive in Israel who were in concentration camps, who were exterminated from every Arab state in recent history. They are in no mood to fight fair as if that were ever a thing in war anyway. Their national motto is pretty much “Never Again” and they’ve structured their country around that.

You can cry about “disproportionate killing” til the fucking cows come home but that.is.war. One side fights the other until one side surrenders or they get tired of butchering each other and call it quits.

Hamas instigated a war. They proudly own that. Israel is taking them up on it. War is horrific. Welcome to the real world

EX500rider

(10,953 posts)
54. "because a terrorist organization"
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 04:37 PM
Feb 2024

Who also happens to be the government of Gaza who attacked Israel.

Cha

(299,389 posts)
30. Yeah one GD thing HAMAS
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:19 PM
Feb 2024

Said is true and they started.

I’ve actually read some of the people of Gaza aren’t so fucking happy about that invasion of Israel

Zeitghost

(3,975 posts)
44. It has been happening since the day
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:50 PM
Feb 2024

Israel declared independence and was attacked by its Arab neighbors who subsequently invaded and occupied the West Bank (Jordan) and Gaza Strip (Egypt).

EX500rider

(10,953 posts)
52. You seem unaware of how war works. The Pearl Harbor attack killed 68 US civilians
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 04:35 PM
Feb 2024

4 years later we killed 100,000 Japanese civilians in just one bombing raid.

On the night of 9–10 March 1945, 334 B-29s took off to raid with 279 of them dropping 1,665 tons of bombs on Tokyo.
Approximately 15.8 square miles (4,090 ha) of the city were destroyed and some 100,000 people are estimated to have died.


If Hamas wants to surrender the IDF will stop. Until then it is war till Hamas is wiped out or surrenders.

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
65. Japan was consistently acquiring territory while losing little
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 06:00 PM
Feb 2024

There was no question in that case they were at war. Again,we are speaking of a complete unlawful occupation -much like Japans occupation of the Philippines or Korea. Nobody actually refers to those conflicts as war despite there consistently being a strong violent opposition movement in both cases.

maxsolomon

(33,626 posts)
19. "Annihilation" is what Hamas baited Israel into.
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 02:57 PM
Feb 2024

How should the IDF have responded? Non-violently?

The goal of 10/7 was to draw the IDF into Gaza, put them in a bind, a no-win situation, where any action is decried as Genocide.

Is the misery, destruction and loss of life worse than Hamas anticipated? Probably. But how much worse?

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
23. I find it a strange mindset that is frankly incredibly human
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:06 PM
Feb 2024

The need for bloodlust as a response to bloodshed certainly fulfills an emotional band aid of sorts. But existentially it accomplishes little.

Israel has probably killed far more people in retaliation for the killing of less than 2,000 people, than the United States had for 9/11 (approximately 2,000). Both were terrorist attacks in which the response was to attempt to forcefully acquire territory.

I imagine Israel won’t be any more successful at holding the territory as historically any other government in a similar situation has.

Yet they still try. Give it another 20 years and we will likely see a similar horrifyingly disproportional response to an isolated terrorist attack where an entire society is upended over political desires and personal vendettas.

EX500rider

(10,953 posts)
55. "Israel has probably killed far more people in retaliation for the killing of less than 2,000 people, than the US..
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 04:40 PM
Feb 2024

...for 9/11"

Really?
Just how many civilians do you think died in Iraq & Afghanistan?
Hint: a way lot more then 20,000

maxsolomon

(33,626 posts)
41. Ah, the chicken and egg.
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:46 PM
Feb 2024

Israel's Apartheid policies towards Gaza baited Hamas into 10/7, then. Got it.

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
88. As many here point out: needless bloodshed is a part of war
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 12:53 PM
Feb 2024

This war has been going on since 1917 when Britain invaded Palestine, and continued when Israel and the US took over the occupation of Palestine after world war 2.

Not 10/7. Anybody trying to say Palestine started any of this is using a very, very short historical point of reference.

Cha

(299,389 posts)
26. HAMAS Started This Fucking War
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:11 PM
Feb 2024

Killing Babies. HAMAS Kills their Own Children.

Talk to the Butchers of HAMAS

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
29. What do the innocent Palestinians whose families are murdered by the IDF have to do with Hamas?
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:17 PM
Feb 2024

Cha

(299,389 posts)
43. HAMAS Invaded Israel and Slaughtered Innocent Israelis &
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:48 PM
Feb 2024

Gang Raped women and showing off how fucking blood thirsty they are.

Israel is Not “murdering Anyone.

Stupid Asshole Butchers Shouldn’t Have Invaded Israel but the fuckers knew this would happen

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
59. Innocent civilians in all wars are not necessarily explicitly targeted.
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 05:38 PM
Feb 2024

In this conflict they appear to be.

EX500rider

(10,953 posts)
63. They do not appear to be to me, quite the opposite
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 05:50 PM
Feb 2024

The IDF has made 79,000 phone calls, dropped 7.2 million leaflets, sent 13.7 million texts and 15 million recorded calls to Palestinians in Gaza with evacuation warnings.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-it-has-killed-more-than-9000-hamas-operatives-in-gaza-since-start-of-war/

DBoon

(22,521 posts)
42. and Israel is morally responsible for continuing this war and killing tens of thousands of civilians
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 03:47 PM
Feb 2024

saying Hamas justifies actions by Israel is setting a very low bar for acceptable behavior.

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
87. Britain started the war when they invaded and occupied Palestine
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 10:42 AM
Feb 2024

The US and Israel continued the war when they agreed to take ownership of the occupation after WW2. If it is a war, it has been going on for 107 years. It cannot end until either Israel forfeits the territory entirely -or a two state solution is enacted.

madaboutharry

(40,285 posts)
81. Wrong in so many ways.
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 12:48 AM
Feb 2024

Disgraceful.

The ghettoised Jews were rounded up, street by street, under the guise of "resettlement", and marched to the Umschlagplatz holding area.[60] From there, they were sent aboard Holocaust trains to the Treblinka death camp, built in a forest 80 kilometres (50 mi) northeast of Warsaw.[61] The operation was headed by the German Resettlement Commissioner, SS-Sturmbannführer Hermann Höfle, on behalf of Sammern-Frankenegg. Upon learning of this plan, Adam Czerniaków, leader of the Judenrat Council committed suicide. He was replaced by Marek Lichtenbaum,[7] tasked with managing roundups with the aid of Jewish Ghetto Police. No-one was informed about the real state of affairs.[62]

The extermination of Jews by means of poisonous gases was carried out at Treblinka II under the auspices of Operation Reinhard, which also included Bełżec, Majdanek, and Sobibór death camps.[59] About 254,000 Warsaw Ghetto inmates (or at least 300,000 by different accounts) were sent to Treblinka during the Grossaktion Warschau, and murdered there between Tisha B'Av (July 23) and Yom Kippur (September 21) of 1942.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto

moniss

(4,280 posts)
66. Christiane Amanpour had some troubling videos on
Tue Feb 20, 2024, 06:24 PM
Feb 2024

her program a few days ago. These showed various groups of IDF soldiers doing things like chanting "there are no innocent Palestinians" while holding detainees, smiling and making jokes while blowing up mosques etc. The IDF said they'll look into it. Nobody has much belief in that happening.

madaboutharry

(40,285 posts)
79. Denigrating and belittling victims of the Holocaust
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 12:33 AM
Feb 2024

with outlandish analogies seems to have become a thing these days. ☹️

ColinC

(8,536 posts)
84. Once again
Wed Feb 21, 2024, 12:53 AM
Feb 2024

How is highlighting the suffering of others denigrating victims of the holocaust?

Or perhaps you have examples?

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