Sun Dec 9, 2012, 11:12 AM

MadHound (34,179 posts)

We the people have already lost.

In the swirl of proposals, counterproposals, and other such noise coming out of the fiscal cliff debate is a contention that is trying to be foisted upon as the conventional wisdom, namely that no matter what else happens, whatever cuts are put through, if we can only force the 'Pugs to agree to eliminating the tax cuts for the rich, it will all be a victory both for the Democratic party and by extension the American people.

This simply is a bullshit lie, the smoke that goes along with mirrors. This is because of what is being put up as the balance in this deal to eliminate those tax cuts, namely massive spending cuts, cuts to Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security or elsewhere, anywhere, except for defense cuts. That's the big reason that the fiscal cliff is inspiring so much fear among Washington, actual cuts to our military budget, and if we've learned anything over the past forty years, cutting the military budget is the biggest sin, the largest heresy that any Congressman or President can commit.

So once again we are looking at cutting more and more of our social safety net, cutting more of the spending the government does on human services. This is where we, all of us, lose.

First of all, there simply isn't that much more to cut. Medicaid is already on life support from being bled and bled again over the years. Medicare and Social Security are already struggling to keep up with the needs of those who rely on them because they have no other resources. And if we cut other human services budget, well, that means less public spending, which means a significant part of our economy shrinks, which in these fragile economic times, can throw us back into a full blown recession. Does that sound like any sort of victory to you?

In classic Keynesian economics, the government is the spender of last resort. When private spending contracts, public spending must increase in order to keep some sort of economic stability in this country. What is being proposed in these fiscal cliff negotiations is shrinking that public spending, a path that has already been trod by Greece and Spain, and look at what is going on there.

A victory for the Democratic party is not a victory for we the people, not if that victory comes at the expense of further pauperizing the populace. Yet this is exactly the deal that is being put on the table. It is much like a game of three card monte, keep your eye on raising the taxes for the rich, never mind that the social safety net is being cut, pay no attention to that slashing of public spending.

There can be no victory in this mess if we the people have to be further pauperized in the process. Public spending on the social safety net and on human services has been cannibalized time and again over the years and decades, to the point where there simply isn't anymore to cut, at least not without causing real harm. The one budget item that is sacred, that has always been sacred, is military spending. It now comprises over fifty percent of our total budget. Yet it once again there is a stampede to preserve this sacred cow no matter the cost, no matter damage and suffering that you and I will endure as a result.

In reality what needs to be done is this, raise the tax rates on all of us. The plain, simple fact is that we do need revenue, much more revenue than the rich can realistically be parted with at this point. So put us all back on the Clinton tax rates, after all, we seemed to do alright even when we were paying higher taxes.

Second, raise capital gains taxes on the rich and well off. Another tax that is at historic lows, and a way of insuring that those rich trust fun babies who don't work also pay their far share.

Third, cut the military budget, preferably in half, but I would be happy with twenty five percent. Take this money and apply it to public spending on human services, for once in my life give this country a true peace dividend. It will prime the economic pump and lead us back into a period of economic recovery, perhaps even prosperity. Lord knows, our country needs some spending, as our infrastructure, our education system all slip into the depths. This would actually benefit us in both the short and long term, providing much needed well paying jobs immediately, and setting the stage for further growth in the future with a modern infrastructure designed to compete in the twenty first century.

This isn't rocket science, this is classic Keynesian economics combined with plain, simple economic common sense. Does our debt problem need to be addressed, certainly, but not at the expense of crashing the economy and doing further harm to the American people. Yet this is exactly where these fiscal cliff negotiations are leading us, yet we are being told that slashing public spending and raising the tax rates on the rich is somehow a victory. Well, the rich can easily afford those new taxes, and probably avoid most of them, but we the people simply cannot afford those cuts. While the Democrats will celebrate a massive victory by forcing up the rates on the rich, we the people will pay for that pyrrhic victory with ongoing poverty and misery.

A talking point victory for the Democratic party simply is not a victory for the American people, not if those people come out worse than before. That is exactly where this political narrative is pushing us however, and it is time for we the people to fight back. Frankly, I'm in agreement with Howard Dean, let's go over the fiscal cliff. Yes, we will all be paying higher tax rates, but we need to, and military spending will get its first meaningful cuts in decades.

Better yet, let's put the people, not the party at the forefront, and work on a real, meaningful victory for the people, not a party.

177 replies, 38554 views

Thread info Bookmark this thread Trash this thread

Reply to this thread

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum

Replies to this discussion thread

177 replies	Author	Time	Post
We the people have already lost. (Original post)	MadHound	Dec 2012	OP
See Lincoln the Movie. Compromise is how the USA was founded and has worked since	graham4anything	Dec 2012	#1
Please don't insult my intelligence by telling me to see a movie in order to learn anything,	MadHound	Dec 2012	#4
Noone was talking to you. I was responding to anyone reading in.	graham4anything	Dec 2012	#6
Well excuuuuuuuse me for daring to think that your post, a reply to mine, is actually meant for me	MadHound	Dec 2012	#11
there is no way to answer a post except to hit respond to post	graham4anything	Dec 2012	#13
New Rule? When NOT responding to OP preface response TO EVERYONE BUT THE OP:	gateley	Dec 2012	#91
Are we to understand your comment here	reeds2012	Dec 2012	#72
He's been trying to shill this film for over a week. Just another "my team right or wrong"	Egalitarian Thug	Dec 2012	#90
The absolute 100% or don't agree is working real well for us- WHEN THE REPUBS DO IT!!!	graham4anything	Dec 2012	#96
Wow, someone is twitchy	Katashi_itto	Dec 2012	#159
Did you even read the OP before responding?	AnotherMcIntosh	Dec 2012	#58
behind closed doors?	maindawg	Dec 2012	#81
I don't think you understand how America has worked 1776-present	graham4anything	Dec 2012	#87
A New Constitution would be fun	AldoLeopold	Dec 2012	#107
From a strictly political science view,	MadHound	Dec 2012	#112
the tea party is a great example of both absoulutism and anarchy as one	graham4anything	Dec 2012	#113
No, it isn't,	MadHound	Dec 2012	#117
You are using #5 of 5 of the meanings. I am using #1,2,3,4	graham4anything	Dec 2012	#119
Two questions,	MadHound	Dec 2012	#121
Both	graham4anything	Dec 2012	#125
First of all, please don't make assumptions about what I am doing, OK, thanks.	MadHound	Dec 2012	#130
Looks like you were talking to Madhound to me.	Hissyspit	Dec 2012	#154
there are only two sides. Never a third shall be,unless the repubs leave the ballpark like the Whigs	graham4anything	Dec 2012	#157
Right. If not responding to the OP and not responding to anyone else in the thread,	Dark n Stormy Knight	Dec 2012	#158
you got it	Mel	Dec 2012	#32
Thank you	tavalon	Dec 2012	#37
oh no	Mel	Dec 2012	#41
Nope y'all are NOT alone......	socialist_n_TN	Dec 2012	#124
I totally agree with you, Tavalon and keep wondering, "Has nobody explained this to Obama yet?"	We People	Dec 2012	#77
I feel sure that they know about it..........	socialist_n_TN	Dec 2012	#126
See the movie	jpak	Dec 2012	#76
Why?	Hissyspit	Dec 2012	#169
Granted, it is a film.	janx	Dec 2012	#174
The Civil War was a result of failed attempts at foul compromise.	Bluenorthwest	Dec 2012	#7
Puts on HAZMAT suit	AldoLeopold	Dec 2012	#102
Compromise is how this country works according to you and a movie and I don't disagree.	Cleita	Dec 2012	#25
+1	villager	Dec 2012	#47
What Cleita said. nt	Nay	Dec 2012	#84
Cleita, I would go so far as to use a different "C" word.	dotymed	Dec 2012	#168
Yes, collusion too. Very good to remind me. Thanks.	Cleita	Dec 2012	#170
You attitude is a good example of why we are where we are today. We been settling for 10% until	rhett o rick	Dec 2012	#26
How's compromise been working for you for the last 20 years?	Doctor_J	Dec 2012	#86
LBJ is the greatest and worked well to get all those social acts/civil rights/voting rights acts	graham4anything	Dec 2012	#120
Yeah, the greatest, except for all that killing of innocents in Vietnam,	MadHound	Dec 2012	#123
JFK authorized Bobby to wiretap Dr. Martin Luther King. and renewed it.	graham4anything	Dec 2012	#128
And what does that have to do with LBJ escalating a war under false premises,	MadHound	Dec 2012	#131
Thomas Jefferson said all were equal while keeping slaves	graham4anything	Dec 2012	#133
Well, now that I've seen what a poor grasp you have of both history and reality,	MadHound	Dec 2012	#134
LBJ staked his presidency on the War On Poverty and the VRA	Doctor_J	Dec 2012	#132
And that's what we want. We want the REPUBLICANS to compromise for a change. .	sabrina 1	Dec 2012	#106
no, actually, war is how the US was founded & maintained, the very opposite of compromise.	HiPointDem	Dec 2012	#156
In the movie, Lincoln was going for permanent emancipation.	merrily	Dec 2012	#165
If there is a deep spending cut, we may be looking at another major recession.	Selatius	Dec 2012	#2
Well, I'm	John2	Dec 2012	#68
+1000	heaven05	Dec 2012	#78
Post removed	Post removed	Dec 2012	#82
No, we really	ProSense	Dec 2012	#3
Well Said!	sheshe2	Dec 2012	#20
I keep hoping to see Democrats stand up for Democratic principles...	Octafish	Dec 2012	#5
+1	LeftInTX	Dec 2012	#12
"instead ... we get ... Trickle Down and Voodoo Reaganomics." What's worse, we are now in the	AnotherMcIntosh	Dec 2012	#62
We (Democrats) need to take an initial position that is so extreme that any movement	bluethruandthru	Dec 2012	#8
+1	abelenkpe	Dec 2012	#9
+1 Start with 'Confiscate The Assets of the Rich'	leftstreet	Dec 2012	#17
Nationalize some industries that are vital for our defense. Like the defense industry and oil. nm	rhett o rick	Dec 2012	#28
...add banks, healthcare, energy	leftstreet	Dec 2012	#34
Yup! nm	rhett o rick	Dec 2012	#42
That would work for me.	AnotherMcIntosh	Dec 2012	#64
Exactly.	rudycantfail	Dec 2012	#30
Excellent!	yewnix	Dec 2012	#173
Welcome to DU. Enjoy your short stay.	yourout	Dec 2012	#176
More anti-Democratic Party shit stirring	jpak	Dec 2012	#10
The Democratic Party is doing a fine job of that on its own	leftstreet	Dec 2012	#14
And what arguments are you bringing to the table? Real Democrats realize that shit stirring is good.	rhett o rick	Dec 2012	#33
Obama won - get over it	jpak	Dec 2012	#38
I get it. Pres Obama won so you can go back to watching American Idol. nm	rhett o rick	Dec 2012	#39
Obama hate fail	jpak	Dec 2012	#50
Intelligence fail. nm	rhett o rick	Dec 2012	#175
I keep looking for a legitimate proposal - one that isn't rumor or speculation	bigtree	Dec 2012	#15
I am really flippin' tired of the negativity from this poster.	babylonsister	Dec 2012	#21
It's easier than doing the work, babylonsister. Talk is cheap. Cynicism is cool.	freshwest	Dec 2012	#151
but, but??!!!	heaven05	Dec 2012	#31
I don't feel 'burned' by our side	bigtree	Dec 2012	#43
a lot	heaven05	Dec 2012	#53
as for 'precedent' show me where this President has made cuts to the social safety net	bigtree	Dec 2012	#59
longer view	heaven05	Dec 2012	#74
Didn't he appoint Alan Simpson and Erskine Bowles to a committee????????	socialist_n_TN	Dec 2012	#129
You don't own a Time Machine as the OP does.	Ikonoklast	Dec 2012	#57
That was excellent, MadHound.........	plethoro	Dec 2012	#16
+1000	heaven05	Dec 2012	#24
President Obama won't give up anything that hurts a lot of people...	Comrade_McKenzie	Dec 2012	#18
And by then...	Oilwellian	Dec 2012	#118
Can we get	ProSense	Dec 2012	#19
I	heaven05	Dec 2012	#22
We need to be expanding Medicare to cover all our citizens	JEB	Dec 2012	#23
It's Also A Political Trap	ProfessorGAC	Dec 2012	#27
I agree with you 100%. We, the people, are being sold down the river	Cleita	Dec 2012	#29
It's the American way since Trickie Dick and the false 'Gas Shortage '	orpupilofnature57	Dec 2012	#36
Until The People Civilly Disobey In Mass Numbers Nothing Will Change	cantbeserious	Dec 2012	#35
I am no longer sanguine that will work either...	plethoro	Dec 2012	#40
No guarantees, but........	socialist_n_TN	Dec 2012	#51
Okay, I agree with that. It has to be a message so	plethoro	Dec 2012	#60
Well that's the question isn't it........	socialist_n_TN	Dec 2012	#66
Great reply. We have met the enemy and it is	plethoro	Dec 2012	#70
Thanx and as I said above.......	socialist_n_TN	Dec 2012	#73
well	heaven05	Dec 2012	#75
I agree	John2	Dec 2012	#85
i think emphasis	riverbendviewgal	Dec 2012	#44
Fortunately, Obama will veto any cuts to the safey net.....won't he?	Tierra_y_Libertad	Dec 2012	#45
I'll bet serious money on or.	Egalitarian Thug	Dec 2012	#92
We...	99Forever	Dec 2012	#46
One thing to remember. NO agreement........	socialist_n_TN	Dec 2012	#48
+1	Egalitarian Thug	Dec 2012	#94
The Corporate State controls the framing	SHRED	Dec 2012	#49
+1	rudycantfail	Dec 2012	#55
I'll give it it's own thread...thanks	SHRED	Dec 2012	#63
Great post, MH, but I have a suggestion about raising taxes.	Zorra	Dec 2012	#52
+1 n/t	Oilwellian	Dec 2012	#127
I had no illusion. The only thing I felt fairly certain about was the Supreme Court. Everything	still_one	Dec 2012	#54
With respect to the Supreme Court, what are you fairly certain about?	AnotherMcIntosh	Dec 2012	#67
better than the federalist society judges. also judges who support right to	still_one	Dec 2012	#115
She's better than the RW Federalist Society judges? Does she want to be? Or be the same?	AnotherMcIntosh	Dec 2012	#147
We don't need new ideas or solutions, we only need history books.	JaneyVee	Dec 2012	#56
It was only and always about cutting our earned benefits! Slight of hand.	Rocky888	Dec 2012	#61
And that became apparent the minute the anti-SS gang were appointed to the	sabrina 1	Dec 2012	#138
With the GLARING monster bill that we give the military, nothing else needs saying.	Gregorian	Dec 2012	#65
Great post. nt	raccoon	Dec 2012	#98
All that military stuff ends up in a landfill eventually, just like all the junk we buy from China.	Flatulo	Dec 2012	#114
Only If We Give Up, Have We Lost	Demeter	Dec 2012	#69
Best post on here since the election in my opinion.	go west young man	Dec 2012	#71
Some eerie parallels between the immediate appearance of the "Fiscal Cliff" and the "Patriot Act"	We People	Dec 2012	#93
They are not naive.	woo me with science	Dec 2012	#103
Excellent post. The good part of all this is that the people are no longer as naive	sabrina 1	Dec 2012	#116
I have reached	sulphurdunn	Dec 2012	#79
MadHound, you're right....	ReRe	Dec 2012	#80
With so many realistic and optimistic DUers your talents may be wasted here.	great white snark	Dec 2012	#83
Yes, I see the	femrap	Dec 2012	#88
DURec!	bvar22	Dec 2012	#89
Amazing isn't it? And we have yet to learn what they will give up in	sabrina 1	Dec 2012	#104
Oh god, don't mention raising taxes on the non-rich here	jmowreader	Dec 2012	#95
The defense spending & the Bush tax cuts to the ultra-rich are the culprits.	pacalo	Dec 2012	#97
I was kind of looking forward to the fiscal cliff	AldoLeopold	Dec 2012	#101
The business world's cushy association with Reagan's presidency put a lot of people out of work.	pacalo	Dec 2012	#105
The Military "Jobs" Program is money down the toilet.	bvar22	Dec 2012	#108
K&R	woo me with science	Dec 2012	#99
Jill, is that you? You lost! Get over it!	Tarheel_Dem	Dec 2012	#100
Yes.	LWolf	Dec 2012	#109
We the People have very little representation....	Junkdrawer	Dec 2012	#110
Yep... K & R !!!	WillyT	Dec 2012	#111
But, but... we just reelected Obama!!	Iggy	Dec 2012	#122
Right! His triangulation and appeasement for four years	Doctor_J	Dec 2012	#136
We can pressure Congress, they have a future to think of. And we should do so	sabrina 1	Dec 2012	#139
You're Joking, Right??	Iggy	Dec 2012	#145
You are right. But I think we were still recovering from the Bush years and people	sabrina 1	Dec 2012	#148
I Hope You're Right	Iggy	Dec 2012	#161
I Can't Wait.....	Iggy	Dec 2012	#144
I think	ProSense	Dec 2012	#146
Who knew...	Bonobo	Dec 2012	#135
Lots of people knew.	Doctor_J	Dec 2012	#137
You bet we have already lost.	woo me with science	Dec 2012	#140
Then people should have fought back harder against Ralph Nader & his lies.	graham4anything	Dec 2012	#141
And we have always been at war with Eastasia.	woo me with science	Dec 2012	#142
Now some want to fight China. Instead of embrace new customers and citizens of the world	graham4anything	Dec 2012	#143
Well said! Too bad that no one is on the side of the people any more.	emsimon33	Dec 2012	#149
most amazing trick I never saw	decayincl	Dec 2012	#150
Tax cuts for the rich won't happen to the real rich	zentrum	Dec 2012	#152
It seems to me you are assuming things not yet proven.	Dyedinthewoolliberal	Dec 2012	#153
+100	HiPointDem	Dec 2012	#155
both parties are negotiating TOGETHER against US....	tomp	Dec 2012	#160
Agree completely, but make it the last fifty years that that lesson has been learned.	eomer	Dec 2012	#162
what is your source for this latest "they are selling us out" panic?	arely staircase	Dec 2012	#163
Hear, hear! k&r n/t	Laelth	Dec 2012	#164
Obama on "entititlements" and deficit reduction 2009-2010; Conyers on Obama, 2011	merrily	Dec 2012	#166
MadHound has it right.	olegramps	Dec 2012	#167
+1 Whatever crumbs are ostentatiously handed to the 99 percent after this debacle,	woo me with science	Dec 2012	#171
If Repubs want to save money on Medicare just end the no negotiation	kiranon	Dec 2012	#172
This message was self-deleted by its author	Fedaykin	Dec 2012	#177

Response to MadHound (Original post)

Sun Dec 9, 2012, 11:14 AM

graham4anything (11,464 posts)

1. See Lincoln the Movie. Compromise is how the USA was founded and has worked since

Like in Lincoln the movie, give the other side something to take home with them, and get more than you asked for in the first place

Without the other side, much of the past accomplished forward movement wouldn't have happened.
10% of something is better than 100% of nothing
100% of nothing is still nothing.

We the people have already lost.

1. See Lincoln the Movie. Compromise is how the USA was founded and has worked since

4. Please don't insult my intelligence by telling me to see a movie in order to learn anything,

6. Noone was talking to you. I was responding to anyone reading in.

11. Well excuuuuuuuse me for daring to think that your post, a reply to mine, is actually meant for me

13. there is no way to answer a post except to hit respond to post

91. New Rule? When NOT responding to OP preface response TO EVERYONE BUT THE OP:

72. Are we to understand your comment here

90. He's been trying to shill this film for over a week. Just another "my team right or wrong"

96. The absolute 100% or don't agree is working real well for us- WHEN THE REPUBS DO IT!!!

159. Wow, someone is twitchy

58. Did you even read the OP before responding?

81. behind closed doors?

87. I don't think you understand how America has worked 1776-present

107. A New Constitution would be fun

112. From a strictly political science view,

113. the tea party is a great example of both absoulutism and anarchy as one

117. No, it isn't,

119. You are using #5 of 5 of the meanings. I am using #1,2,3,4

121. Two questions,

125. Both

130. First of all, please don't make assumptions about what I am doing, OK, thanks.

154. Looks like you were talking to Madhound to me.

157. there are only two sides. Never a third shall be,unless the repubs leave the ballpark like the Whigs

158. Right. If not responding to the OP and not responding to anyone else in the thread,

32. you got it

37. Thank you

41. oh no

124. Nope y'all are NOT alone......

77. I totally agree with you, Tavalon and keep wondering, "Has nobody explained this to Obama yet?"

126. I feel sure that they know about it..........

76. See the movie

169. Why?

174. Granted, it is a film.

7. The Civil War was a result of failed attempts at foul compromise.

102. Puts on HAZMAT suit

25. Compromise is how this country works according to you and a movie and I don't disagree.

47. +1

84. What Cleita said. nt

168. Cleita, I would go so far as to use a different "C" word.

170. Yes, collusion too. Very good to remind me. Thanks.

26. You attitude is a good example of why we are where we are today. We been settling for 10% until

86. How's compromise been working for you for the last 20 years?

120. LBJ is the greatest and worked well to get all those social acts/civil rights/voting rights acts

123. Yeah, the greatest, except for all that killing of innocents in Vietnam,

128. JFK authorized Bobby to wiretap Dr. Martin Luther King. and renewed it.

131. And what does that have to do with LBJ escalating a war under false premises,

133. Thomas Jefferson said all were equal while keeping slaves

134. Well, now that I've seen what a poor grasp you have of both history and reality,

132. LBJ staked his presidency on the War On Poverty and the VRA

106. And that's what we want. We want the REPUBLICANS to compromise for a change. .

156. no, actually, war is how the US was founded & maintained, the very opposite of compromise.

165. In the movie, Lincoln was going for permanent emancipation.

2. If there is a deep spending cut, we may be looking at another major recession.

68. Well, I'm

78. +1000

3. No, we really

20. Well Said!

5. I keep hoping to see Democrats stand up for Democratic principles...

12. +1

62. "instead ... we get ... Trickle Down and Voodoo Reaganomics." What's worse, we are now in the

8. We (Democrats) need to take an initial position that is so extreme that any movement

9. +1

17. +1 Start with 'Confiscate The Assets of the Rich'

28. Nationalize some industries that are vital for our defense. Like the defense industry and oil. nm

34. ...add banks, healthcare, energy

42. Yup! nm

64. That would work for me.

30. Exactly.

173. Excellent!

176. Welcome to DU. Enjoy your short stay.

10. More anti-Democratic Party shit stirring

14. The Democratic Party is doing a fine job of that on its own

33. And what arguments are you bringing to the table? Real Democrats realize that shit stirring is good.

38. Obama won - get over it

39. I get it. Pres Obama won so you can go back to watching American Idol. nm

50. Obama hate fail

175. Intelligence fail. nm

15. I keep looking for a legitimate proposal - one that isn't rumor or speculation

21. I am really flippin' tired of the negativity from this poster.