Jail time could await North Carolina students who go after teachers online

[proud2BlibKansan]

North Carolina students who go after their teachers online could face jail time -- and truth won't even be a defense, under a new law that critics say infringes on free speech rights.

The law, called the School Violence Prevention Act, is aimed at students who torment their teachers by creating fake online profiles, posting personal information or images, signing them up to pornographic sites or make any statement, "whether true or false" that's intended to "immediately provoke" anyone to "stalk or harass a school employee."

"It became apparent that we had to get some kind of protection," said Judy Kidd, of the Classroom Teachers Association of North Carolina, which sought the legislation.

But critics of the law, which took effect Dec. 1 and makes such actions a Class 2 misdemeanor equal to simple assault or resisting arrest, say it is vague, overly harsh and unconstitutional. The ACLU of North Carolina said “criminalizing student speech is a slippery slope and establishes a bad precedent.”


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/05/students-who-go-after-teachers-online-could-face-jail-under-new-north-carolina/?cmpid=cmty_other_Jail_time_could_await_North_Carolina_students_who_go_after_teachers_online#ixzz2EbP2CMUL

[-..__...]

1. Make it a criminal offense/misdemeanor?... No.

However... any teacher that comes under attack in this manner, does (and should), have full legal recourse in the form of civil action.

Sue the shit out of them (or their parents), for libel, defamation of character, emotional distress, etc.

Just one more reason to stay the fuck off FaceBook.

[AldoLeopold]

2. Couldn't have put it better myself

[marions ghost]

4. Do you have any idea how hard it would be to sue in such a case?

Busy teachers don't have the time or money. They need upfront protection. This should be a misdemeanor.

[-..__...]

6. Even if the posting is factual and/or truthful?

[marions ghost]

9. If it is factual

the judge should take that into consideration. It is more likely that untruth or distortion is more the problem.

[loli phabay]

8. what about other public servants or just joe blow. should politicians also be protected

[marions ghost]

10. Public servants

are adults. These are kids (but very net savvy kids). The usual libel laws apply to adults. And most adults don't want to jeopardize their jobs. Different situation.

[loli phabay]

11. i was saying should other public servants get the same protections and if not why not.

[Jackpine Radical]

29. Mostly because they generally don't have contact with hordes of kids as part of their jobs,

some of whom they are bound to piss off with disciplinary actions, bad grades or whatever?

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. And if they're poor?

I'm not sure this law is the right idea but a lawsuit is a much harder way to get justice.

[-..__...]

44. Yeah... so what?

Financial situation shouldn't make one immune, or come into play, or even be considered in a civil case.

If found guilty... adjust the award accordingly, be it WalMart or welfare.

The alternative is a criminal conviction that could haunt the person for life.

Granted... it's a Class 2 misdemeanor (hardly a deterrent), but as jobs get tighter and tighter, and the competition has the same to offer, one criminal conviction could be a deal breaker.

[marions ghost]

60. Don't you know that it costs serious money

to bring a civil case? And a lot of time involved. It would never happen. Teachers are powerless against this. Somebody on a teacher's salary is going to spend 10K on a legal case?

A misdemeanor does not haunt a person for life, but it would act as a deterrent. It is not a criminal conviction. If they're a minor it likely won't be a factor at all.

What this might do is teach kids where the line of decency is so they don't go on to become hedge fund managers or ethically challenged congressmen--or budding Karl Roves.

Don't you think kids sometimes have to learn the hard way to become good adults? That aspect of this is nothing new.

[graham4anything]

3. Good. Practical jokes kill, like they just did in the UK with the nurse.

once you ruin someones reputation on page 1
a retort of it on page 43 is meaningless

[Honeycombe8]

34. +1. Words and pranks can ruin lives. nt

[obamanut2012]

5. Very proud of this, although I wish it was a heavier criminal charge

Teachers I know here are very glad to see this.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. I'm not sure I am glad to see this.

Seems kind of extreme.

[obamanut2012]

22. If a student created a fake porn profile for you

Or cyber stalked and tormented you and your family, you think that's okay?! It's stalking, and should be treated seriously. Teachers have been fired, amongst other things, for false information students spread about them online. That is illegal for adults to do.

I am shocked.

[loli phabay]

27. shouldnt the law extend to all people then that juveniles stalk. seems that everyone should have pr

Protections.

[obamanut2012]

30. People who work with minors deserve certain protections

Which they usually don't have.

Kids lie about teacher molesting them a lot, kids get ticked at teacher and create crazy webpage, or start a porn profile, and make sure the community finds out.

The law already protects "others" from this. This is a law to handle a specific category of cyber bullying and libel.

Kinda hard to sue a minor in civil court.

[Occulus]

18. Even for students over the age of 18?

Even when they are relating no false information?

I wasn't born with enough middle fingers to give your comment the response it deserves.

[obamanut2012]

21. What a pleasant response -- giving me the middle finger

How is creating fake porn files real info?

If an adult does this to another adult, they get arrested for stalking.

I think it should be a stalking charge, not simple assault.

[marions ghost]

7. Students know this is wrong:

"posting personal information or images, signing them up to pornographic sites or make any statement, "whether true or false" that's intended to "immediately provoke" anyone to "stalk or harass a school employee." They KNOW this is wrong.

Repercussions must have some teeth or you teach them that this is not serious.

I think any judge will be lenient if what the student posted is actually true. But false info should carry quite a strong threat of punishment.

I agree with the ACLU a lot but not with this.

[strategery blunder]

12. Then truth should be an absolute defense.

Yes, there ARE teachers out there who do stupid shit. Or fail to do that which they should be doing (especially in the case of bullied kids).

I was bullied a lot in school. Teachers didn't see a lot of it, because most of the time bullies try to keep the bullying out of sight of those who could punish them. But sometimes they did. Most intervened when they saw it. But a few did not, as they were content to look the other way.

Teachers have a duty to enforce good order and discipline for the safety of their students. When a teacher fails to do this (and I've seen it happen), what recourse does an injured student have but to call it out before the community? In my experience, the administration will almost always back up the teacher.

I understand why the law was passed, I really do, but it should not be used to protect the truly bad teachers from having their incompetence and/or indifference called out. And students are the ones who see and suffer such incompetence and indifference when it happens.

Truth should be allowed as an actual, affirmative defense that the student may plead, preserved in the court record for appellate courts to review if necessary, not something judges may (or may not) elect to take into account on their own.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. So it's okay to bully teachers online if they are bad teachers?

Is that what you are saying?

[loli phabay]

17. i think the point was if they are a crap teacher then the students should be able to say that

Truth should absolutely overide this law.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. So how does that apply with this new law?

It's about online stalking and bullying.

[loli phabay]

24. one mans bullying and stalking is another mans truth

If ten students write three times on facebook that a teacher is crap is that bullying or telling the truth. I guess it depends on your viewpoint.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. I guess I am assuming that is defined in this law

If not, there's going to be lots of problems. LOL

[marions ghost]

61. If someone says online "a teacher is crap"

--I don't think this rises to the level of bullying. But we can all imagine the things that might be said that would rise to the level of stalking/bullying and general trouble-making.

Teenagers are not known for good impulse control and need to have the limits clearly defined. College kids are usually smart enough to know that they have better avenues of address for a legitimate grievance against a teacher.

Destroying someone's reputation is a little more serious than sending them an unsolicited pizza.

[iemitsu]

48. There are perfectly competent teachers who are worn down

and abused by students, who can look incompetent or frustrated and out of control, on a given day or during a given section. While it is certainly true that competent teachers ought to be able to deal with difficult students, sometimes with some students or groups of students, teachers can lose it. This reality does not mean a teacher is bad or incompetent it means they are human.
Good parents sometimes lose it with their kids too. It does not make them bad parents.

[Occulus]

19. If the students are telling the truth, not as they see it, but actual, factual truth,

it is not bullying.

See how easy that is to resolve?

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. From the OP:

The law, called the School Violence Prevention Act, is aimed at students who torment their teachers by creating fake online profiles, posting personal information or images, signing them up to pornographic sites or make any statement, "whether true or false" that's intended to "immediately provoke" anyone to "stalk or harass a school employee."

How can it be okay to torment anyone by creating a fake online profile, posting personal info, etc??

Why should it matter if the teacher is a bad teacher? There are other ways to take care of that problem.

[Occulus]

32. Are names and employee photos "personal information"?

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. Not if they're fake

[Occulus]

39. "even if true"

Would you apply this law to students over the age of 18?

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. Yes

[marions ghost]

62. Absolutely

Over 18 = college age. Plenty of mechanisms for legitimate complaints against teachers/professors. American college kids are not oppressed by professors--quite the contrary. Compared to other countries, they are coddled.

If the allegations by the student are not true or legitimate, and they stupidly get into cyber defamation, then why should they not be slapped with a misdemeanor?

[strategery blunder]

47. The problem, from your own post, highlighted for emphasis:

(and no I don't know the convoluted div quote thingie to quote offhand, when a [quote] tag is more than sufficient for every other forum I'm on.)

The law, called the School Violence Prevention Act, is aimed at students who torment their teachers by creating fake online profiles, posting personal information or images, signing them up to pornographic sites or make any statement, "whether true or false" that's intended to "immediately provoke" anyone to "stalk or harass a school employee."

The bolded part is the part that's the problem.

"Any statement" would include such things as, "My PE teacher joins in when other students mock me for my lack of hand-eye coordination." (That actually happened to me, btw.) And of course it would "immediately provoke" any other bullied kids to "harass" a school employee for being such a dick.

That little part of the law is entirely too broad, and specifically includes truth as a defense, leaving students with no recourse when a teacher DOES genuinely wrong them in some way. I would be OK with it if that part was struck or modified to allow truth as an affirmative defense. Students should be able to hold teachers accountable when the teachers fail to perform their jobs, or worse, actively participates in the bullying.

So yes, there will be problems...

[iemitsu]

50. Not being able to post "even true" things online about teachers

doesn't mean a student has no recourse when a teacher is inappropriate or unprofessional. If school administrators defend the teacher initially (which one would expect the case to be) the student gets witnesses to testify to the administrators about the incident, or series of ongoing behaviors, or comments.
School admins are not going to defend the indefensible when faced with certain evidence. They don't want the liability for themselves or their schools.
Some teachers are a danger to students and they should be outed and removed from the classroom.
But most student teacher conflicts are about personality conflicts. Not everyone gets along with everyone else.
Teachers who seem incompetent and uninteresting to to some kids are perfectly interesting and engaging with others. This can be true even in the context of one class period when the teacher presents a lesson which engages some students and fails to engage others.
Sometimes students mishear or partially hear something a teacher says and feel disrespected. If the student does not seek clarification and an apology the teacher has no idea the student is upset.
Interpersonal relationships are difficult for many adults and even more difficult for growing children (especially those in need) and posting teen perspective online, about the failure of a given teacher to meet the needs of that student, is not an appropriate place for the student to seek redress.

[strategery blunder]

58. And you believe such disagreements should be criminally prosecuted?

This is where the law is entirely too vague and can be used to turn legitimate disagreements between student and teacher into misdemeanor criminal justice cases.

EDIT TO ADD: And let's be honest here: not every student has the resources, or even believes s/he has the resources, to pursue "justice" when a teacher does some injurious act or omission. In my case, there was much I withheld from my parental unit because I did not believe said parental unit could afford to hire a lawyer to pursue justice over what happened. I did not believe my family could pay hundreds of dollars an hour to pursue the claim of "My PE teacher mocks me for my lack of aptitude in sports before the class," so I kept my mouth shut--when in fact that teacher probably was one of the ones who should be removed from the profession. And I sure as hell did not trust the school administration with such claims, either. Had this law been in effect in my state when I was a student, I could have been prosecuted for saying anything at all about it.

[iemitsu]

67. I certainly don't advocate any teacher mocking a student.

I was mocked in gym too, by plenty of students, and I can't imagine how much worse it would have been if the teacher had participated in or encouraged that harassment. I am sorry you had to endure such treatment.
I don't believe that student/teacher disagreements should, under normal circumstances, be prosecuted but when either the teacher or the student commits a crime against the other there should be recourse through the courts.
I also believe that many incidents both, petty and grievous, go unreported and unpunished but that does not necessitate vigilante justice on the part of the victim via the internet, especially when the justice is being meted out by a teenaged person.
Perhaps the law in question is overly harsh or vague, that will ultimately be addressed by the courts too, not solved by us.
The American political and corporate establishments have declared open season on teachers. They are the target of much undeserved criticism and blame. When students see or hear adults abusing teachers they feel justified in abusing teachers too.

[strategery blunder]

70. That's the problem--the law IS overly vague.

A student should be able to truthfully say "Hey, this teacher joins in when bullies mock me, instead of intervening to stop the bullying as his duties charge him to do."

There is a large difference between that and a student cyber-mocking a teacher for being fat, or whatever other juvenile things that kids find to mock people about. A more narrowly-written version of the law can forbid the latter, while protecting the publication of perfectly legitimate complaints such as the former. As is, the law is so broadly written that it will discourage students from reporting teacher conduct that SHOULD be reported--students don't always know how to get through the initial brick wall that is the administration defending the teacher. Not every student has parents with the savvy or resources to pursue such claims, either. I certainly didn't.

[iemitsu]

72. I agree that students and their families

often don't know how to effectively deal with school administrators or school district bureaucracies, particularly if the student is "at risk", as many victims of harassment and bullying are.
And I am uncomfortable with any law or rule that works to stifle the truth, especially if that truth reveals that an adult, in a position of authority, is harming a child.
Perhaps what that state, every other one, should establish a "hot line" or secure website where students and other victims could call or leave comments, reporting abusive behaviors of those in power: teachers, priests, elected officials, employers, doctors, policemen, and others. That site could compile the complaints and investigate if the charges warranted, either by the severity of the charge or by being repeatedly accused of misconduct. The site could even publish the charges and the results of an investigation if an accused is found guilty of crimes or misbehavior but until the charges are proven (whether petty or grave) the identity of accused officials ought to be protected.
I don't really have the solution to this problem but it is my impression that many teachers have become victims of harmful pranks perpetrated by students. This law is clearly in response to that situation (and in a climate where teachers are being blamed for all the ills of the nation).

[obamanut2012]

26. You just told me upthread you were against this law

I am so confused.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. So you think that means I support a student's right to bully a teacher online?

LOL

[Occulus]

42. You have a strange idea of what bullying is.

It's the "even if true" part that trips your claim up.

Truth isn't "bullying". Never was, never will be.

Truth can be inconvenient or impolite, though, and I suspect that's what really bothers you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. Again. From the OP:

The law, called the School Violence Prevention Act, is aimed at students who torment their teachers by creating fake online profiles, posting personal information or images, signing them up to pornographic sites or make any statement, "whether true or false" that's intended to "immediately provoke" anyone to "stalk or harass a school employee."

It's in the law, Dude. "whether true or false"

What bothers me is anyone thinking it's okay to torment anyone online. And yes, it can be true but still be unacceptable. The most recent example I can think of is the right wing blogs posting contact information for that soup kitchen where Ryan pretended to wash pans and encouraging people to harass the place. Not okay.

[tblue37]

51. Of course truth can be used to bully someone!

For example, a homely, overweight person can be bullied by being constantly mocked for being homely and overweight.

A gay person can be outed against his or her will and thus subject to stalking and abuse by bigots, and in some cases even end up losing his or her job.

To claim that truth never is bullying and never will be bullying is nonsense.

[dsc]

55. sure it is or at least can be

I got called gay alot in school, it was true, trust me they were bullying me.

[sabrina 1]

59. Using truth or lies to harass someone with is generally wrong.

The element that the law is concerned with is NOT whether there is truth in what is said about teachers, it is the harassment that is the problem.

If that was the way to handle disputes we would not need a judicial system. People could just take matters into their own hands and simply harass someone every day as a means of getting revenge.

It would not solve their problem and harassing teachers online will not solve a student's problem. There are ways to handle legitimate complaints, but harassment is not one of them and normally will only get YOU in trouble. This is simply applying what is already unacceptable and sometimes illegal depending on how far it goes, to modern technology.

You can't even harass someone you know has committed a serious crime without consequences. You have to report it to the proper authorities. Otherwise we would be living in a vigilante society.

It was bound to happen as people abused the technology. And the more people abuse it, the more laws we will have. Same as in the real world. Laws are made as abuses get out of control and enough people complain.

[Fumesucker]

16. I for one welcome our new pedagogic overlords

I'm sure this law will come in handy with the newly privatized education, wouldn't want the custom.. err. students complaining publicly if they get miserable service.

Yes, I'm going a bit over the top here but I think the chances of this law being misused approach absolute certainty and I don't trust our corporate rulers one iota.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. I don't like it either.

But I also really don't like the replies here that say its okay to torment a teacher online if it's a bad teacher.

[duffyduff]

28. +1 n/t

[Fumesucker]

35. I did not intend to imply that I thought such things were acceptable

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Oh I know that.

We're good.

[marions ghost]

63. Students can and will complain

...they need to know there's a limit to how they express it. There is a line where it crosses into behavior that
is not legal. Actually this would do them a favor-- if they know where the line is, they might be less liable to get into a situation where even worse consequences are exacted, if it can be proven that the teacher was ruined professionally. Sometimes you ave to save people from their own stupidity.

I don't agree that students are equivalent to customers expecting "service"--but that's another debate. However it is an attitude that makes students feel entitled to bully in general.

[Fumesucker]

65. If you can't foresee this law being abused to silence legitimate critics

Particularly in a privatized education setting then both your cynicism and your imagination are woefully inadequate, IMO.

[marions ghost]

66. I really doubt it

I think it's fair and designed to stop serious offenders only. The law has to have some teeth or teachers are wide open with no realistic legal recourse. Legitimate critics of teachers need not worry. But defamation and personal attack has to be controlled or you just have chaos.* (edit to add * kinda like DU, y'know?)

My cynicism and my imagination are my best attributes!

Thanks for the compliments!

[bluestateguy]

37. Calling a teacher a bad teacher online is not a crime

Or saying that a teacher grades too hard, or is too strict. Nobody is exempt from criticism of the way they do their job.

Libeling a teacher as a child molester or a pedophile, for example, would be grounds for civil action.

[Occulus]

40. One would think falsely accusing another of a crime, particularly one so heinous,

would already involve an illegal act; I.e., the false accusation itself.

[Terra Alta]

41. I can see where this law would be needed

Creating fake profiles, posting personal information, harassing/stalking teachers online -- yes this is a crime and should be punished.

However, if a kid wants to say his/her teacher is too strict, or that a teacher shows favoritism to certain kids, or simply thinks the teacher is unfair, the student should be allowed to vent without being punished, IMO. This is a good law but it goes too far.

[Starry Messenger]

45. K&R

I doubt this will lead to a lot of prosecutions, but hopefully will work as a deterrent to teacher harassment. I doubt this law would have come into being unless things had gotten really bad.

[elfin]

46. I am so SICK of both student and societal disrespect to teachers

I say any infraction against a teacher, whether a "prank", or misdemeanor or felony should have all penalties to the student and if possible to the parents of said student automatically doubled, just because it was against a TEACHER.

Yes, I know a futile dream, but this retired teacher grieves for what is happening to my profession and am enraged by the current climate.

Also, any teacher who disrespects the profession by abusing the lives of students deserves automatic dismissal.

[iemitsu]

52. I'm sick of being the whipping post too.

Nobody wants to defend bad teachers but most teachers work very hard to provide appropriate lessons and to model appropriate behavior to the students in their charge.
Because corporate interests want their hands on the pot of money tied to education there has been unrelenting teacher abuse by corporate interests (Gates Foundation, Heritage, Broad, the Waltons, etc.).
I wish that abuse was covered by this law.
Teachers are not worse today than they were yesterday but everyone is being told that we are.
When students are told that their teachers are failures the students treat the teachers accordingly. And when teachers are evaluated by the performance of their students on standardized tests, good teachers can be made to look like failures.
I have been in the classroom for many years and had many positive experiences with students and some negative experiences. I believe (with some evidence) that most of the students enrolled in my courses had good experiences and learned the required curriculum. I also believe they got more from my classes than what the curriculum provides. I have been invited to many of my student's homes and I have kept in touch with ex-students and their families. I am not perceived as a failing teacher in my building or community but I've had students who I couldn't reach. Is that student's judgement of my teaching skills the internet tag I should be tied the rest of my life?
Thank you Elfin.

[marions ghost]

64. Interesting insight

My experience is at college level but I see the results of this pervasive negative attitude against high school teachers & am completely sympathetic to the issues. It is tied to the corporate stranglehold on society. The whole insanely competitive dog-eat-dog environment leads to general insanity.

I don't know why people can't see that this NC law is the "progressive" POV --on the issue of cyber bullying.

What is the worst teacher abuse perpetrated by corporate interests in your opinion?

[iemitsu]

68. My school was a thriving, inter-city, comprehensive high school

with a popular and successful International Baccalaureate program, that was targeted by the "Small Schools" reform being promoted when charter schools were first introduced as competition for public schools. The foundation behind this reform couldn't get the staff to vote to adopt their ideas, so they lavished the district and building administrators with fancy lunches and trips to observe small school models, until the staff's vote was overturned for 'the greater good of the district's students".
The army of reform leaders, who descended on our building, were anything but good leaders. They were dismissive of legitimate concerns and insulting to teachers who asked questions. They were corporate stooges and acted accordingly.
But the worst teacher abuse I witnessed was revealed to me, and via me to a school board member (whose son was best friends with my son and whose husband is a prominent lawyer in town), in the form of a manila envelope, filled with e-mail exchanges between the foundation goons and several teachers in the building and cc'd to the principal, tucked under the windshield wiper on my car. I found this envelope when I was leaving campus one afternoon.
The reams of e-mails recorded a neatly hatched plan to discredit and embarrass several teachers, who had been critical of the reform process, by scheduling meetings with local ethnic churches to sell their reform model, where staged "community members" would take the floor and testify that the targeted teachers were racist or at least were practicing and promoting institutional racism. One of the foundation goons, in these e-mails, even laughed at how funny it would be to label the middle-aged white guy (me) a racist.
To this day I don't know who the "deep throat" was that placed the documents under my windshield wiper. I showed them to the board member and the next day the foundation no longer controlled our building. The principal and the teachers involved with the e-mails were transferred to other schools.
After that the foundation financed two magnet schools in the district. These schools have siphoned off half our students which makes it difficult to support the dynamic programs we once offered.
But maybe that is not really the worst abuse perpetrated by corporate involvement in schools, because that experience is over and the targeted teachers survived (and were viewed favorably by their peers). What is more abusive is the unrelenting bombardment of ALEC sponsored, anti-teacher legislation, the unfair insistence on tying teacher evaluations to student test scores, and the micromanagement of our daily lives. Like chronic lower-back pain, constantly being told that one is under-performing destroys the quality of life.

[marions ghost]

69. thanks for posting this

I am going to talk to some teachers I know about this situation of abuse in general. Your post gives me impetus to do that. Wow.

No ethics left in this country. I have seen it in other arenas. Anything goes....

[iemitsu]

71. Yeah, I guess people do whatever they think they must for

pay check. I know that the foundation was paying their folk well, twice as much as some of the teachers in the building were earning, so maybe that had some influence on their professional integrity.
I would have to be paid a heck of a lot more than that before I would consider treating other people with such disregard.

[lbrtbell]

53. Next thing you know, kids will be executed for TP'ing teachers' homes

Suspending and/or expelling the kids would be a better solution.

Online mockery of someone is hardly "violence"--unless you threatened them or their families, of course.

I've been cyberstalked, so I learned first-hand the difference between morons talking crap online, and something that can actually endanger your well-being. It offends me that this law and the people behind it are comparing simple trolling to cyberstalking. It's very unsympathetic to those of us who have actually experienced online threats.

[LeftyMom]

54. The phrasing has enough wiggle room enough to make misuse by authoritarians inevitable.

[HiPointDem]

56. i agree that criminalizing student speech is a bad precedent (unless the speech is within the

legal definitions of slander, etc.); however, i think the teacher-bashing climate is partly responsible for teaching students that this kind of thing is OK.

[JoeyT]

57. Truth should always be a defense.

I was ok with it right up until they announced telling the truth would get you the same penalty as making stuff up. It's bollocks.