I'm sick of post-mortems too, but...

[pat_k]

...here are a couple puzzle pieces -- no particular ranking or assertion that this or that item is "The Reason."

Unions
My step-father was a union steward at Boeing for decades. In his opinion, the Dems have done a lousy job with unions -- starting with NAFTA.
I don't want to argue how great we are for union people, or how we are comparatively better. The breach exists and we've got to repair that breach somehow.

Student loan forgiveness
Ties into the above and same source. Big problem. Ties right into our "brand" as elitist. Once again, I don't want to argue, but the forgiveness program just opened wounds with non-college educated working people. As my step-father put it. "I can't tell you how many truly qualified people lost promotions to some unqualified asshole with a degree. And now they get that degree at no cost? Fuck them."

Elitist brand.
Yes, it is part of the far right propaganda machine, but some of it sticks because there are grains of truth. One person -- can't remember who -- captured some of this pointing out that you can't reach working people by hammering on offering "them" the opportunity for education to become one of "us."

Stop ignoring what we are being told.
Anoiting an incumbent with a 40% approval is a death sentence. In the name of party unity we got behind very unpopular candidates (including Hillary) without a real contest. Let's not do that again. We've got a deep bench and when we are up against a "throw the bums out" mentality, we need a truly open primary to hammer things out.

Far-right brainwashing.
This is not a political propaganda war. It is a social problem. Some ideas here:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=19612951

[surfered]

1. I'm tired of "experts " who predicted Harris would win, now telling me why she lost.

[TwilightZone]

6. Hardly anyone who was being objective definitively predicted that she would win.

Many outlets called it a toss-up. Those who did predict Harris would win usually hedged their bets by saying she had a 51% chance and so on.

[Meowmee]

10. My brother thought she would lose at the start

And told me this for two or three days before. He was right.

[TwilightZone]

12. My mom told me she would lose the day it was clear that she would be the nominee.

My mom is a life-long Democrat who is still pissed that Hillary Clinton lost to this weasel and largely blames misogyny. She was convinced that misogyny and racism, predominantly the former, would be the primary reasons for a Harris loss.

I disagreed, but I was also nervous about how close the race was all cycle.

The reasons are myriad, of course, but there is little doubt that those were factors.

[Meowmee]

13. Yes agree on all of that

There were many other reasons too, and I think there was maybe some major fraud, but we’re never going to find out.

When H was running, he talked to lifelong D here where we are which is a mostly red area and they said give me a man etc.

[kelly1mm]

2. How it was not seen that student loan forgiveness programs were further alienating working

class voters of all races is beyond me. I can and do understand the policy argument for student loan forgiveness but to pretend that there would be no downside was/is ridiculous.

[pat_k]

5. I noticed that when the issue was raised it was dismissed or rationalized.

Last edited Mon Nov 11, 2024, 04:36 PM - Edit history (2)

And the way it was often struck me as a kind of "we know what's best for you all" attitude that is very, very, very damaging.

And oddly, I've heard similar anger against "Medicare for All" among Medicare recipients. ("I worked hard for my Medicare and now you're giving it away?) The sentiment doesn't seem to get triggered when discussing universal health care as a right. Somehow we need to understand how the framing is different in people's heads, on this, and on a lot of things.

Listening. Really listening. Not making assumptions. I think "we" make way, way too many assumptions about what is going on when we actually have no f-ing clue.

[TwilightZone]

3. Biden won voters who had a union member in the household 57/40.

So, unless there was a huge shift for 2024, the assertion about unions doesn't hold up.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1184429/presidential-election-exit-polls-share-votes-union-membership-us/

I think many of the others fall into similar categories. They have some validity, perhaps, but not as much as those who had the opinions might believe. Some are just right-wing talking points, which you identified as such.

For the record, Hillary would have won if not for about 100 things going right for Trump. He needed them all and got them. He needed slim margins in a few states to swing the EC, he needed a third party to draw just enough votes in swing states, Comey influence, low turnout, 30 years of RW propaganda, apathy on the left, potential campaign missteps (WI, etc.), and on and on and on.

Had any of those been marginally different, the outcome may very well have been different, as well.

The assertion about Biden's approval ratings has some validity, but any candidate we put up was going to be tied to them.

[pat_k]

7. As I said, I don't want to argue, but holding Union support has been a struggle since NAFTA.

[mitch96]

4. For me, weather by hook or by crook the repukes got more votes plain and simple. nt

[emulatorloo]

8. Both the 2016 and 2020 primaries were "real contests"

The candidates who got the most votes won those primaries.

Many times over the years, my first choice didn’t win. I got behind the candidate who won 100%.

[pat_k]

16. My view of 2016 is probably a minority view...

... but from the outset I was very unhappy that so many great leaders in our party choose not to run because the "conventional wisdom" was that it was Hillary's "turn." I did not see the strange Hillary-Bernie contest as a real primary of the type we needed.

And yes, the primary in 2020 was a real primary from which Biden emerged as a solid candidate who promised to be a bridge to the next generation. When he broke that promise the "conventional wisdom" that other leaders must stand aside for the incumbent kicked in. He is a spectacular president who was a very, very weak candidate. And we absolutely did not have a robust primary. Our votes were rubber stamps on a done deal. And for the majority of the people in my little information bubble, our votes were an incredibly unenthusiastic rubber stamp.

[emulatorloo]

18. Biden broke no promise. He never said he was only going to be a one term president.

He made no such promise.

[pat_k]

20. Being a "transitional" president and "bridge" . . .

. . . says "one term" without specifically saying it.

He never explicitly stated he would be a one term because he is at his core a political animal and feared making it totally explicit too early would lessen his power. But when he started making noises that he would run again, many, many, many Democrats felt utterly betrayed. And they felt that way for good reason.

[emulatorloo]

22. Nothing you've posted is factual. Just 'assumptions' and 'conclusions' that can not be supported w fact.

I’m afraid I have yo agree with yardwork on this one.

That being said, Best of luck to you. I really appreciate that you took the time to post and to reply to everyone.

[pat_k]

23. Obviously.

I conveyed a couple things my step-father expressed that reflect feelings shared by other retired people in the union he was steward of. I think those feelings and reactions are likely shared by others, but no where did I assert that I had data to back this up. Just something I thought worthy of consideration.

The notion that propaganda about "us" being "elitist" sticks because there are some grains of truth in them is purely a conclusion based on my own observation and experience and I offer no data on that. Once again, just something I think may be worth a little self-examination over.

As far as a majority of individuals in my particular information bubble feeling betrayed and angry about Biden choosing to run again, I do not claim any data either. (FWIW, it is based on a handful of friends across the country I've known for more than 40 years, a few dozen people I've had conversations with here in deep blue Seattle, including dog walking clients which constitute a sampling of people selected for reasons that have nothing to do with politics.)

[emulatorloo]

19. 2016 Primary: Sanders, Clinton, O'Malley, Chaffee, Webb, Lessing

From Wikipedia

Six major candidates entered the race starting April 12, 2015, when former Secretary of State and New York Senator Hillary Clinton formally announced her second bid for the presidency. She was followed by Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, former Governor of Maryland Martin O'Malley, former Governor of Rhode Island Lincoln Chafee, former Virginia Senator Jim Webb and Harvard Law Professor Lawrence Lessig.

[pat_k]

21. The party coalesced around her as presumed nominee in early 2014

That never changed.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/07/5-democrats-who-should-run-against-hillary-clinton/449067/?gift=CiksPDoBurvFhUHnw_O61gTtdshwzIztURlOZoc9HcI&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

[CoopersDad]

9. Dems had only 1/10 the time to campaign compared to IT.

Trump has been campaigning since J6 and attracting DAILY media attention.

Where were we? WHERE WERE WE?

Not until the summer debate mega-disaster did it occur to us that we were in trouble.

That's a serious problem and could have and should have been seen coming.

Nobody's talking about this problem, we risk repeating it if we don't face the facts.

[pat_k]

15. Kamala did a spectacular job.

The problem was Biden's decision to run in the first place and our entire bench standing aside to get behind a man who was a spectacular president while also being a very weak candidate at his age and given the national sentiment on the very real effects of inflation that was beyond his control to do more than manage a soft landing. He betrayed his promise to be a bridge. When he made that promise, he was seeing clearly. When he decided to run, it was the habit of a lifetime of believing he could beat all odds. Something that served him well, until it didn't. He knew the powerful case against running. He just decided he could pull off another impossible victory. He was wrong and it was a grave disservice.

[yardwork]

11. I don't listen to arguments that claim our candidates were "anointed."

That's bullshit, plain and simple. Biden was chosen as our nominee in a fair primary, with Harris as his running mate. Biden did a great job leading our country out of Trump's disastrous term and COVID.

Biden is the most pro-union president we've ever had. He walked picket lines. Did Harris turn down meetings with union leaders? How did she fail to listen? Show me the evidence.

College loan forgiveness is helping people who have paid predatory loans for decades. Nobody got anything for free. The loan forgiveness helped begin to right a very bad wrong. If people wanted to learn about it they could - but all I hear is low-information griping.

I disagree with all your points.

[pat_k]

14. No one ran against Biden because he was the incumbent.

And the rest of your answer makes a point -- many of us write off sentiment without hearing what is behind it because we assume there is no basis -- that we know better. That is not dialog. It alienates

[mvd]

17. There were many kinds of stupidity in this election

One is of ignorance, one of misinformation and another one of malice. Some are sexist and/or racist. I’m not sure how we get through to them but the misinformed may be easiest. On unions, yes, we could have been better. But Trump is just plain anti-union and even walked with scabs. For student loan forgiveness, ask him if he’d turn down something tailored to him that helps. On elitist brand, most of us are enlightened, just want tolerance and are much more for the working class and poor than the Repukes are. Your last points are valid. Though Kamala was a good candidate, I wish Biden was one term from the start. The RW has a huge social media presence that we should start working on combating. The mainstream media won’t do it.