The CT shooter armed with a "high-powered assault rifle." Six bullets a SECOND.

[pnwmom]

So a parent or teacher armed with a concealed carry pistol wouldn't have been a realistic solution -- as much as the George Zimmermans of the world might like to think so.

This type of weapon is illegal in CT, but unfortunately is easy to obtain in other states.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ct-school-shooter-made-combat-weapon-article-1.1220431

The shooter who killed at least 27 people at a Newtown, Connecticut elementary school — including 18 children — was brandishing up to four weapons and wearing a bullet-proof vest, witnesses told reporters. A law enforcement source said one of those weapons was a .223 caliber rifle, a highly lethal firearm made for combat.

Witnesses told reporters the madman fired at least 100 rounds, which the expert said would have required him to pack extra magazines so he could quickly reload.

A .223 caliber rifle is a semi-automatic assault rifle that allows its shooter to fire up to six bullets a second. The gun was first used in the Vietnam War, said Ronald Scott, an independent firearms consultant and former head of the firearms lab for the Massachusetts state police.

In Connecticut, a permit is required to purchase a handgun, while assault weapons are banned completely from the state, according to the National Rifle Association.

[cthulu2016]

1. Actually, he had two handguns. (And people with rifles are not bulletproof)

I appreciate where you're coming from, but the sentiment makes no practical sense.

[pnwmom]

2. Didn't you "actually" read the post? He had several weapons, including a high-powered rifle.

And a pistol would be no match against that kind of weapon.

[Fumesucker]

4. With guns it's more about who is first to hit the other rather than the power of the weapon

Beyond a certain point dead is dead, yes a 30 06 will do more damage than a .38 but either one can kill you with a single shot.

At very short ranges a pistol is to be preferred over a hunting rifle, faster to bring on target.

[pnwmom]

6. He's the one with the plan and he's the one with the bullet proof vest.

No one with a concealed carry pistol would have been prepared for this monster.

[Fumesucker]

13. Depends on the individual and the situation

It's unlikely but not impossible, most of the time the people who do this kind of crazy shit are not all that well trained.

[pnwmom]

18. And what is possible and even likely is that any concealed carry pistol

will be involved in an accidental shooting before it will ever save the day in a situation like this.

[Fearless]

20. Agreed.

[Fumesucker]

36. That's a different point than the one I was arguing

[ManiacJoe]

59. Certainly possible.

However, if you want to claim "likely" you will need to site your facts.

[pnwmom]

62. Nope, I'm not going to bother because I've cited the Harvard research dozens of times here.

And the gun fans will never accept it.

[Lizzie Poppet]

19. That's not how gun combat works.

At the range over which a fight indoors occurs, a handgun is every bit as viable a weapon as a rifle. Either are capable of sufficient accuracy at such close distance. In addition, a ballistic vest doesn't isolate the wearer from all effects of being shot. A handgun (of reasonably "serious" caliber) will still hit very hard; people who have been shot wearing them describe it as "like being kicked by a mule." The person is not going to shrug it off...and the person who shot them might have time to re-target and hit an unprotected area, etc.

Would the killer still have the advantage of surprise and a plan? Sure. But that doesn't mean someone armed with a handgun is wasting their time trying to intervene. The latter would have an exponentially greater chance of succeeding than if they were unarmed.

Now does that mean I advocate allowing educators to carry concealed weapons? No, not really... I would only support such a thing if they were required to attain a level of training and expertise not far from that required of Air Marshals. Not ordinary cops (who tend to be pretty mediocre with their pistols, to be blunt), but people who are expected to be able to shoot accurately in the close confines of an airplane - not dissimilar from a crowded classroom...if you see my point). Do may educators have the time and inclination to attain this standard? I doubt it. Perhaps I'm being too stringent here...

[PavePusher]

41. If rifles and "bullet proof vests (they aren't)" confered invincibility....

we'd have been done in Afghanistan several years ago.

And guess what? People with pistols have stopped criminals with rifles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_Square_shooting

And it doesn't take an off-duty officer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life_shootings

[cthulu2016]

5. 1) That story is most likely wrong -- it repeats something said hours ago and since

widely retracted. The current story is that he was armed with only two handguns.

2) The idea that a person with a rifle in invulnerable to handgun fire is just wrong.

I don't even know what you mean by "a match for"... a gun fight is between bullets and human bodies, not between guns.

Many people armed with assault-style rifles have been stopped by police armed with their standard issue pistols.

I am not arguing that teachers should be armed. I am saying that your argument here for why they should not is a poor argument for a position you and I share.

[pnwmom]

8. No , this report is based on the most recent information.

And here's another.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ct-school-shooter-made-combat-weapon-article-1.1220431

The shooter who killed at least 27 people at a Newtown, Connecticut elementary school — including 18 children — was brandishing up to four weapons and wearing a bullet-proof vest, witnesses told reporters. A law enforcement source said one of those weapons was a .223 caliber rifle, a highly lethal firearm made for combat.

Witnesses told reporters the madman fired at least 100 rounds, which the expert said would have required him to pack extra magazines so he could quickly reload.

A .223 caliber rifle is a semi-automatic assault rifle that allows its shooter to fire up to six bullets a second. The gun was first used in the Vietnam War, said Ronald Scott, an independent firearms consultant and former head of the firearms lab for the Massachusetts state police.

In Connecticut, a permit is required to purchase a handgun, while assault weapons are banned completely from the state, according to the National Rifle Association.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ct-school-shooter-made-combat-weapon-article-1.1220431#ixzz2F3pJojHy

[PavePusher]

45. No, it wasn't an "assault rifle". n/t

[pnwmom]

48. Only gun nuts care to quibble about whether a gun is an "assault rifle" or an "assault weapon."

The writer of this report called it an "assault rifle." Deal with it.

[ManiacJoe]

56. Words have meanings. It helps to pick the correct ones.

[pnwmom]

68. This is a distinction without a difference. How does it help to pick the "correct" word?

And who decides what is the "correct" word? The NRA?

Or is there a Dictionary of Gun Terminology that you can refer me to?

[shadowrider]

72. Here you go

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_firearms_terms

[Larkspur]

3. Wasn't he wearing a kevlar vest?

While he wasn't fully armored, like the Aurora, CO shooter, he would have had an edge over any teacher who may have had a handgun.

[bluestate10]

7. A report said that he was wearing a military style vest. The report didn't say whether it was

bullet proof or not.

[PavePusher]

46. A ballistic vest does not confer invincibility.

Ask anyone who's been shot while wearing one.

[ManiacJoe]

9. The MSM sites disagree with that rifle description.

Still, I would not want to be shot by it. However, a CCW pistol would be far better than no gun for defense.

[pnwmom]

11. CCW pistols result in more accidental deaths than they ever help people

be Superman in situations like this.

[ManiacJoe]

14. That depends on your limited definition of "help".

[PavePusher]

47. No, they don't.

Please show your stats.

[pnwmom]

42. The AP is part of the MSM and the AP says it was a .223 rifle. n/t

[ManiacJoe]

50. Exactly.

The .223 round is not high powered.
The AR-15 clone used in the attack is by definition not an assault rifle since it can only fire one round at a time.

[elehhhhna]

55. it's highpowered enough to fucking kill an entire classroom of 6 year-olds.

fuck. just stop.

[ManiacJoe]

58. Getting the details wrong is not the same as not discussing the details.

If you don't care about the details, then just don't talk about them.

However, if you choose to talk about them and get them wrong, expect to be corrected.

[elehhhhna]

61. oh you're the gun police? thanks. very important role.

[pnwmom]

63. The article says it was. And no one but gun fans quibbles

about the semantics. It was a gun that could mow down a classroom in seconds.

[ManiacJoe]

64. The media almost never gets it right.

The cops are almost as bad.

Adding erroneous "facts" to a story never helps the story.

Any gun "could mow down a classroom in seconds". Some just faster than others.

[kestrel91316]

10. But, but, the gun rights folks say there's no such thing as an "assault rifle"!!

[ManiacJoe]

16. Close, but you meant "assault weapon".

"Assault weapons" do not exist in the real world.

Assault rifles have existed since the 1940s and have been heavily regulated since the 1930s. (Yes, before they were invented.)

[kestrel91316]

33. A rifle is a weapon, right? That means an assault rifle is an assault weapon.

Unless you're toying with the words like Clinton and his definition of "is"......

[ManiacJoe]

52. You need to educate yourself as you have no clue what you are talking about.

Words/phrases have meanings. When you misuse them, not only do you sound foolish, but you should expect to have your error(s) pointed out to you. Hopefully you will take this as a learning experience.

[kestrel91316]

60. So do you maintain that a rifle is not a weapon?

Please do explain.

Fuck all the gun nuts.

[ManiacJoe]

65. Reading is fundamental.

"Assault weapon" and "assault rifle" are two different things for any of the nonsense definitions of "assault weapon" you chose to use.

Please don't wallow in your ignorance, it does not become you, nor does it help the conversation.

If you don't want to talk about the details, then just don't talk about them. If you chose to talk about the details and you get them wrong, expect to be corrected on it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. That is because they are using a very close definition

That be weapons capable of automatic fire...pull the trigger once and it will keep spitting bullets out as long as you do that, or run out of ammo.

Ironically the very legal semi auto setting, which requires you to pull the trigger every time you shoot a round, as what is called fire discipline and is far more lethal, because you have better control.

If I am in a shoot out, as I have in the past...I'd rather be shot at in full auto fire, than semi...less control, better chances of making it out alive and barrels will heat up ad have better chances of getting jammed.

A well trained shooter can achieve close to full auto rates with semi automatic guns.

I hate that I know as much as I do, but it has to be with having, actually, been shot at. So learning how to take cover, and to hopefully recognize what was coming your way, is a fundamental survival skill.

I know I won't be good at a shootout, since I know I will not do the deer in the headlights break cover to get a photo. Nope, cover thank you...and if there is a deep enough ditch, that is great cover. Engine blocks also are great.

[kestrel91316]

31. You mean they are parsing the word, sort of like the whole thing about

what the meaning of "is" is??

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. No, it's the 1934 law legal definition

When that came you had either single shot, or full auto. We can thank the Germans for the assault weapon. They came out with the grand daddy for the Ak and the M-16 during WWIi, near the end. That was the first infantry weapon capable of both automatic fire and semi automatic fire.

[ManiacJoe]

54. Nicely explained. Thank you!

[FarCenter]

12. If it was a AR15, it was probably made in Connecticut

The manufacture of small arms has been a major industry there.

[hobbit709]

15. Up to 6 rounds a second if you can hit the trigger that fast.

A fully automatic M-16 will empty a 20 round clip in about a second and a half.

[A HERETIC I AM]

17. It could only shoot 6 bullets a second if the shooter is able to pull the trigger six times per....

second.

Just try and fold your index finger six times in one single second.

"Semi" Automatic.

It's not a machine gun.

Facts do matter.

[Fearless]

21. Does six three or one times a second matter against children?

This isn't target practice, it's an elementary school.

[A HERETIC I AM]

23. I am SO glad you pointed that out for me!

Really! That is a perspective I hadn't considered!

I am thrilled to have this new avenue of inquiry to contemplate.


Thanks
You're a gem.

[Fearless]

25. Really? I point out that you're misguided and you snark me?

I expect more from DU.

[A HERETIC I AM]

32. Excuse me, but how in the bloody hell am I "misguided"?

I pointed out that the headline of the OP is NOT ACCURATE by saying that the only way this rifle can shoot SIX BULLETS A FUCKING SECOND is if the shooter is able to pull the trigger that fast.

I just timed myself, and it took 1.5 seconds to say the words "pull the trigger that fast".

Look....this is a horrible, dastardly thing that happened. I know it. You know it. Any rational person knows it. I just happen to think that facts matter.

The headline of the OP reads; "The CT shooter armed with a "high-powered assault rifle." Six bullets a SECOND."

I am just saying BULLSHIT. That's all. Of course it doesn't matter how many rounds per second the damned gun can shoot with regard to the lives lost. But the only way that rifle can shoot 6 god damned bullets a second is if the shooter has super powered index fingers.

OK? "Snark me" yourself. You're not above me or anyone else in your indignation.

[Fearless]

34. You've missed the point entirely and I have no intention of snarking you.

[A HERETIC I AM]

37. Oh, for fucks sake.

Last edited Fri Dec 14, 2012, 06:44 PM - Edit history (1)

?1316330080






No, chuckles, I didn't miss the point. Either entirely or even minimally.

[Fearless]

38. You made my point for me better than I ever could.

[A HERETIC I AM]

43. And your point was?

That it doesn't matter how fast the gun could shoot, right?


NO FUCKING SHIT, SHERLOCK!

Again,

?1240934151

[TimKeller]

22. Why shouldnt we politicize it?

Gun control and this tragedy are interlated. It needs to be discussed and I'm outraged by their
"outrage"

I just posted yesterday about the NRA's lobbying power on the US and the negative impacts it has. I also asked how many more tragedies it would take. I wish it wasn't so soon that I would be given another example, especially of this magnitude.

Check out my articles on the CT tragedy and the NRA Lobbying Power called The Killing Routine

http://unapologeticallyliberal.wordpress.com/2012/12/13/the-killing-routine-nras-effect-on-the-us/

http://unapologeticallyliberal.wordpress.com/2012/12/13/the-killing-routine-nras-effect-on-the-us/

[Fearless]

26. It does need to be discussed

And people need to realize that access to guns and a culture that accepts this kind of behavior and equally alienates its own citizens into thinking that this is an acceptable form of expression are exactly the things we need to be fixing about this country.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

24. Is there word yet on how the gunman died? eom

[WorseBeforeBetter]

28. No. (n/t)

[Roland99]

29. Question then...what purpose would more gun control laws serve?

If the shooter had a gun that was already illegal in that state, what would another law banning such a gun do?

[REP]

40. It's not an assault rifle; it's "assault style" - assault rifles are select fire

And AR-15s are semi-automatic only (select fire means full-auto or semi-auto). In states where assault-style rifles are banned, those purchased legally before the ban was in place are still legal to own, but not to resell.

[obamanut2012]

49. Correct -- and this is not a "machine gun"

It is impossible to shoot this six times per second, because no one can pull a trigger six times a second, although that doesn't make the victims less dead.

Semi autos have been available for over 100 years.

[REP]

53. No doubt about that.

It's like the one part of the chaos I can tidy is clearing up incorrect terms. Not super helpful, but I can't help myself.

[obamanut2012]

57. I feel the same way

It's what I do for a living, so it's a bit soothing to do so.

[Roland99]

67. rifle...style...wtfe...you didn't answer the question.

[REP]

69. I did; weapons bought before the ban are legal to retain ownership of, but not legal to resell.

[Roland99]

71. and the shooter bought this rifle before the ban?

[Are_grits_groceries]

30. It was a Bushmaster.

The same gun the Beltway sniper used in DC.

[REP]

39. A popular make of semi-automatic civilian rifles

They don't all look like that; that clip is no longer available and the one pictured has several optional parts.

[joeybee12]

44. KNR...the NRA apologists are all over this thread...pathetic

[Warren DeMontague]

51. "They wants to takes the precious ... We needs it"

[JPZenger]

66. We need to make people reload

In many of these mass shooting incidents, there were people who were willing to intervene if they just had a chance. However, when someone is walking around with multiple 50 round magazines or similar firepower, it doesn't give anyone a chance to jump him. As one person said, the first 8 people killed by a shooter is the fault of the shooter. Any people killed after the first 8 is the fault of the
NRA, gun dealers, Congress and State legislators.

[ManiacJoe]

70. Are you suggesting that reloading did not happen?

[NoMoreWarNow]

73. one source said the rifle wasn't used and was in the trunk of his car