Strike while the gun is still smoking. Insist on an assault weapons ban. NOW.

[pnwmom]

It doesn't matter exactly what type of weapon was used in this case or even if it was a semi-automatic or not. Today's tragedy is a reminder that we have millions of assault weapons floating around out there, all capable of mowing down innocents.

When are we going to wake up?

[Trunk Monkey]

1. Never let a good tragedy go to waste NT

[Fresh_Start]

4. which of the 10000+ tragedies this year are you complaining about

because every gun death is a tragedy.

[Care Acutely]

5. Fuck the NRA and fuck the anti-sanity brigade/gun nutz that are enablers of the tragedy today.

Pro-gun-sanity people want to see fewer dead children. Gun nutz are happy to let the carnage continue as long they can continue to play with their bang-bang toys.

[etherealtruth]

26. THIS IS THE TIME TO SPEAK

Gun nuts be damned ... I won't be silenced by the aberrant "love" of guns.

It is time for the gun nuts to stand down .... you all have blood on your hands. The insistence of "guns' for all" ... your cries of need for assault weapons (solely used for assaults) have bloodied your hands.

YOU ARE COMPLICIT IN THE SLAUGHTER OF INNOCENTS

[Trunk Monkey]

32. Why, No no I'm not

Do you own a car? You're complicit in the slaughter of innocent Polar Bears.

Now let's go back and look at the OP

Did she or did she not say :

It doesn't matter exactly what type of weapon was used in this case or even if it was a semi-automatic or not.

We need to demand an Assault Weapon ban now?

So, if the killer used a .22 revolver we need to demand an Assault Weapon ban now?

Never let a good tragedy go to waste

[etherealtruth]

34. Most of your posts have been in the "gungeon"

.... Hmmmmm

Go worship at the alter of the gun and the NRA.

[Trunk Monkey]

35. Most of my posts have been in the gungeon

True. I also like the loners forum.

I'm not sure if the software is up yet but you might want to see how many posts I've had hidden in the entire time I've been here (all one of them).

To me that would indicate that I pretty much follow the rules to the letter .

My area of interest just happens to be RKBA

What, exactly, was your problem then?

[etherealtruth]

41. It seems you are repeating NRA talking points verbatim

Imagine that

http://www.businessinsider.com/nra-president-criticized-how-national-tragedies-are-used-to-support-gun-control-2012-12

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/nyregion/shooting-reported-at-connecticut-elementary-school.html?hp
Wayne LaPierre{in all his Ugly Glory}

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/nra-president-criticized-how-national-tragedies-are-used-to-support-gun-control-2012-12#ixzz2F7zMhURg

The links are from Xchrom's post in GD .... sorry for stealing Xchrom

[Trunk Monkey]

42. You know , I would have a lot more respect for the pro gun control crowd

if you guys would just admit when you lose an argument instead of throwing the" Most of your posts are in the gungeon/NRA talking points card "

If what I'm saying is just "NRA talking points" refute it.

Please, be my guest.

[etherealtruth]

43. I accept your lack of respect as a compliment

"never let a good tragedy go to waste" .... is the official NRA response.

[Trunk Monkey]

44. The official NRA response

You sure you want to go with that?

[ThatPoetGuy]

109. You're delusional if you think you've ever won an argument.

When people accuse you of spouting NRA talking points, it's because your statements have been thoroughly and rationally debunked, and you just keep shouting LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU, HERE'S SOME MORE CRAP THAT ANY INTELLIGENT PERSON CAN SEE THROUGH.

You and your fellow murder-enablers and murder-fantasists are a blight on DU, on America, and on the human race.

[DCBob]

36. the "car" argument is so lame.

Cars are a necessity of life for almost every person in this country and are not intended to do harm. We try to make them as safe as possible and restrict their use to only licensed individuals. Guns on the other hand are designed to kill and are not a necessity to the vast majority. Although there are many gun laws currently in place, they are much too loose and easy to get around.

[Paladin]

39. Not Only That.....

The ratio of active automobile use vs. active gun use in this country at any given time has to be upwards of 10,000,000 to 1, if not more. That needs to be factored in, when the inevitable guns vs. cars arguments come up---gun militants will lose, every time......

[Trunk Monkey]

40. I'm curious what gun laws do you think are too loose and to easy to get around?

Before you answer, I’m not trying to be a smart ass but come on; this guy was an EDP who was willing to ignore the laws against murder, what gun law would have stopped him?

The following isn’t meant to be a definitive list but based on the news reports I’ve heard I’ve picked up the following.

The shooter was 20 years old in Connecticut you must be 21 to legally purchase a handgun; you must also have a permit. For this person to be in possession of those handguns was already illegal what law would have stopped him?

Connecticut has an Assault Weapons ban it was illegal for the shooter to posses the AR 15 (that he apparently never used in the shooting) what law would have stopped him?

How about we focus on the real issue here, the shooter apparently had some serious and know mental health issues why wasn’t more done to address them?

[DCBob]

46. so you admit your car argument is lame.

thats progress.

[Trunk Monkey]

48. Not in the slightest

the guns that I own did not in any way contribute to this shooting.

The car that you drive does actually produce greenhouse gasses that really are melting the polar icecaps and endangering the lives of every polar bear on this planet.

As well as the victims of superstorms that are caused by global warming.

[DCBob]

50. then you didnt read and/or comprehend my previous post.

your logic makes no sense whatsover.

[laundry_queen]

104. The guns you own DID contribute

Unless all of your guns are inherited from generations back, any gun you buy means profits go to the manufacturers which fund the NRA. YOU are part of the problem, stop being in denial that somehow your purchases of guns have nothing to do with this. It has EVERYTHING to do with what happened.

[theKed]

47. What about those issues with

the guns being in circulation at all?

[Trunk Monkey]

49. What do you propose?

Shall we attempt to confiscate 300+ million guns from 80+ million voters who would be highly unlikely to vote Democrat ever again should such legislation ever be introduced?

What, exactly, do you think we should do?

[theKed]

66. I love a good straw man, don't you?

Yes, clearly what I'm advocating is the immediate, forceful confiscation of every firearm in America, all at once (italics are fun, too, huh?)

[AldoLeopold]

76. How about you repeal the 2nd amendment

and help people with mental health issues?

[rl6214]

89. My guns must be broken

They've never killed anyone

[RetroLounge]

55. Blood on your hands

BLood on YOUR hands

RL

[laundry_queen]

105. +1 nt

[Lizzie Poppet]

51. Collective guilt arguments are absurd.

Obviously.

[etherealtruth]

67. When there is collective guilt these arguments are "accurate"

[Lizzie Poppet]

74. An entirely unfulfilled conditional...

...so I reiterate: absurd.

[etherealtruth]

75. Society bears the burdens of its ills ... there is a collective guilt

those that do not accept responsibility are the problem


"The contrast here is not only between the civility of the children and the cruelty of the shooter, but between what was asked of them at this moment and how little the public and elected officials ask of themselves when it comes to doing s...omething about gun violence. ... How do we find ourselves asking kindergarteners to be more courageous in the face of a gunman than politicians are in the face of the gun lobby?"

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2012/12/the-newtown-shooting-kindergarteners-and-courage.html

[Lizzie Poppet]

77. Accepting collective responsibility is a very different thing.

Accepting that whole inane, hyperbolic "you gun owners have the blood of children on your hands" horseshit is another thing entirely.

[etherealtruth]

78. There is a collective guilt

I share some of the burden as I had chosen to relatively silent until now.

The NRA and its supporters HAVE THE BLOOD OF INNOCENTS ON THEIR HANDS, those that defend them are complicit.

Those that don't speak out have become complicit, based on their silence.

"The contrast here is not only between the civility of the children and the cruelty of the shooter, but between what was asked of them at this moment and how little the public and elected officials ask of themselves when it comes to doing s...omething about gun violence. ... How do we find ourselves asking kindergarteners to be more courageous in the face of a gunman than politicians are in the face of the gun lobby?"

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2012/12/the-newtown-shooting-kindergarteners-and-courage.html

[Lizzie Poppet]

79. Then we simply disagree.

[Ragrum]

68. Killings by Guns – not a knee jerk rant!

I understand the recent news about a mass gun killing was perhaps done by a mentally ill person…but even so:
I’d submit that if you live in these United States and are of voting age and did or did not vote ....we have blood on our hands.
Gun violence is expeditious and is that not a metaphor for the society we have created, support and somehow turn a blind eye.
We have a society where we solve not some, but many problems with violence.
Another Metaphor for our society: We glorify intense violence in what is passed off as entertainment.
Guns don’t kill; it is done mostly by people whose moral compass has been hijacked with our society’s complicity.
Here are some solutions:
Raise the age of adulthood to 25, the biological age of maturity.
No gun purchases till 25 and with a complete background check. Outlaw unregistered gun sales. That means if you own a registered gun and you sell it in a private sale and the gun is then used in a crime you can be charged as an accomplice.
Make the owner of any gun that has been stolen an accomplice to a gun crime.
I am willing to also consider that society impose an excise tax on ammunition: triple the cost and make the largest quantity for purchase, a single box of 20, at a time.
No violent video games until 25 (worth a try) and triple the cost to own through an excise tax.
Make violent TV and movie viewing a minimum of 25 (worth a try)
Raise the cost to view violent movies (movie tickets $20 would be easier to do)
Level an increased advertiser fee on those companies that wish to promote their product on violent TV.
Finally and I know this will rile some: We have a Dept. of Defense. Why should it not be a Dept. of Peace?

Our Society needs to change how we view ourselves. This will take people supporting structural change through the ballot box and supporting laws that turn us toward a more peace loving society.

[etherealtruth]

71. This is worthy of its own OP

[deek]

83. I agree n/t

.

[laundry_queen]

106. me too. nt

[rl6214]

87. Which site did you get your anti gun talking points from?

[etherealtruth]

88. Reality

Oh so inters sting that you largely post in the gungeon here ... no marked interest in anything other than gungasms?

Favorite group: Gun Control & RKBA, 158 posts in the last 90 days (76% of total posts)

[laundry_queen]

107. See, the thing about being anti-gun means we're PRO-people living.

We don't need any website or anti-NRA group to tell US our 'talking points'. We get OUR talking points FROM OUR OWN HUMANITY.

[RetroLounge]

54. Never actually care about dead kids

NRA-speak

RL

[still_one]

2. why did they remove it in the first place? Members of legislatures who have been making weapons

more accessible have blood on their hands

[Trunk Monkey]

6. The original assault weapon ban ( which Bill Clinton blames for the loss of the 94 mid terms)

was written with a sunset clause. Unless renewed it would automatically expire in 2004. GW Bush stated that had congress put a bill on his desk to make the 94 AWB permanent he would have signed it.

However since the ban could not be shown to have any appreciable effect on crime it was allowed ot lapse.

They AWB is also credited with transforming the NRA from an irrelevant target shooting /safety organization into the political Juggernaut it is now.

You want a republican house, senate and white house for the rest of your life?

Go fuck with a new AWB

[still_one]

8. They have effectively had republican control since bush. How has that been working out for them?

They want their assault weapons over anything else, they are paying the consequences of those actions

[rl6214]

90. President Obama should have done something when he had his majorities

In the house and senate during his first two years.

[still_one]

95. blue dogs would not have gone with it I suspect

[morningfog]

23. Times have changed. Desperate times. Bring back the ban, and then some.

[Recursion]

59. The murder rate is half what it was when the ban was passed

and lower than it was when it was lifted.

[still_one]

91. I am talking about mass murders, and those have increased

[Recursion]

53. Because it didn't address guns actually used in crimes

It was a pointless law

[still_one]

92. It addresses weapons that taking a lot of people out. 100 thousand people per year are hurt by guns

[Recursion]

96. But not by assault weapons

Why do people keep fixating on the class of firearms that criminals don't use?

[still_one]

98. no, but assault weapons are for one purpose only, to take out a lot of people

[Recursion]

99. Sigh. Tell me what you mean when you say "assault weapon"

That's a fraught phrase that means a ton of different things to different people.

[still_one]

102. It is a firearm designed for rapid firing at close range

[Recursion]

103. Give me ballparks of "rapid" and "close"

Rifles are designed for hitting things about 100 yards away. Pistols are designed to hit things about 20 yards away.

In terms of rapidity, any semi-automatic weapon fires at roughly the same speed, whether it's a rifle or a pistol.

I'm sorry if I'm being callous or a jerk, this isn't my intent. I'm really trying to figure out what you want.

[RKP5637]

3. I've never understood the need for assault weapons. I've heard the logic that if THEY, the military

the government - THEM come after us then we'll need assault weapons. And that is the dumbest of arguments for assault weapons. If THEY are coming after you, that assault weapon is going to be useless.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. How else are you going to assault the White Deer

Compound????

I am kidding, but for some it s akin to that.

[RKP5637]

27. Ohhhhh my, hadn't thought about them!!!

[Recursion]

56. I've never understood why people with no idea of what "assault weapon" means...

... feel so sure that they should be illegal, and that people like me who think banning them is pointless are "nuts".

[kestrel91316]

7. A DU gun nut just tried to tell me there is no such thing as "assault weapons".

And then out of the other side of his mouth he told me about "assault rifles".

The stupid, self-absorbed fuckers are parsing words and don't give a damn about the death toll from their activities.

[pnwmom]

14. I keep seeing that kind of thing. As if it makes a bit of difference to a thinking person

whether these guns that can mow down people in seconds are called "rifles" or "weapons." As if a rifle isn't a weapon!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. And a dog is a wolf...

Technicalities matter. That is why the Federal AWB failed to achieve its goal and the CA one is so porous.

IIRC you have enough technical training to understand that details matters.

[kestrel91316]

17. So, like the other guy, do you maintain that a gun is NOT a weapon?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. That is not my take on that discussion

and neither of you were interested in communication...

The AWBs were mostly failures due to failure to understand and address technical details that mattered. They focused on cosmetics and they failed, even in CA.


What some propose is the equivalent of banning all breeds of Canines...not being smart enough to understand and define the differences between dogs and wolves.

[kestrel91316]

19. Is a rifle a weapon or not? THAT is the discussion.

Fish or cut bait, dude. Answer the question.

We were talking about "assault rifles" and laws pertaining to them and yet he maintained that there was no such thing as an "assault weapon". A rifle is a weapon, so an assault rifle IS by definition an assault weapon, thus proving that assault weapons do, in fact, exist.

Stop changing the subject.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. Again, your zeal exceeds your accuracy

The term "assault rifle" has a specific meaning. It is not any black rifle, it is a selective fire (semi and full auto) that fires a rifle cartridge.

The term "assault weapon". It is a made up terms used by those to condemn firearms that they cannot adequately define.

Your attempt in wordsmithing this is no different than the pols, in that it fails. Stick to correct verbiage because you are calling dogs, wolves, and that just doesn't hunt

[Recursion]

58. No assault rifle can be an assault weapon. Period

They are mutually exclusive definitions.

[rl6214]

94. An assault rifle is fully automatic

The so called"assault weapon" might look like one but is not fully automatic, but I m sure that was explained to you already.

[Warren DeMontague]

70. Then ban everything that fires more than six bullets an hour.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

81. At least you suggest an honest metric

which is much better than many

[Warren DeMontague]

82. Yep.

And I think i'm being pretty damn generous. Ive never been a "gun grabber" but that is changing. Rapidly.

[Recursion]

57. It was an arbitrary legal definition in 94

And it was chosen deliberately because people would think it was about assault rifles, which it was not.

[derby378]

62. I don't like to use the term "assault rifle," either

There's lever-action, bolt-action, semi-auto, full-auto, etc. Those terms are definable and easier to work with.

[Scootaloo]

9. Needs more than that.

It's time to take a page from the UK. Shut guns down totally. Tall restrictions, limited supply, high penalties for law evasion on this. No, it probably won't stop these killings. But it'll help. We need to stop pretending that someone's right to own a mechanical doohickey is of higher value than human life. because that's what it is; "my stuff" has higher value in our culture than "your life."

I think that excising that notion from our body politic would be a big step in the right direction for fixing a lot of other problems as well.

[redqueen]

10. K&R Fuck the NRA and their enablers. nt

[frazzled]

11. Why don't we all change our sig lines today??

To: "Renew the Assault Weapons Ban."

We're the ones who have to take the first step. Anyone game?

[HooptieWagon]

12. There are NOT millions of assault weapons floating around.

But carry on with using today's tragedy to spread ignorance, misinformation, and further an agenda.

[pnwmom]

13. There are close to 4 million in the U.S., according to estimates.

And more AK-47's are purchased by Americans from Russia than are produced for the Russian military.


http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcassaul.html

There are close to 4 million assault weapons in the U.S., which amounts to roughly 1.7% of the total gun stock.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2188727/Americans-buy-AK47s-Russian-military-assault-rifle-surges-popularity.html

American civilians are buying as many AK47s from Russia's top armory as the Russian military and police.
The surge in sales of Russian assault rifles and shotguns are fuelled by firearms enthusiasts who are paranoid about the weapons being banned in the United States.
The semiautomatic weapons, fitted with high-capacity magazines, are manufactured at Izhevsk Machinebuilding Plant, Russia's primary small arms factory.
They are built alongside the fully-automatic military versions that are used by armies, militias and terrorists around the world.

In the United States, they have become immensely popular. Among hunters, recreational shooters and survivalists, they are known for being extremely reliable and relatively inexpensive -- and they fire powerful ammunition that is cheap and plentiful.

SNIP

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. Depending on your definition, there are much more than that

Classically semi auto only means it is not an assault rifle.

Some other things to consider:
- The AR-15 style is the most popular rifle sold today. There are more than a million sold each year if you do a cursory look at the reports from the manufacturers
- Rifles that function identically to AKs and ARs (detachable magazine fed semi autos) have been prevalent since WWI in civilian hands.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. My lord, speaks the NRA.

I hope the pay is good.

The 1944 Assault Riffle that the Germans developed is the granddaddy. Did you miss the assault part?

Anyhow, your semi auto can put quite a bit of lead down range, in the most accurate form of fire.

You keep spreading NRA talking points though.

(And don't come back with the assault are only full auto, when modern day semi can reach close to the low end of full auto fire)

[hack89]

21. Aren't handguns the real issue?

banning rifles but leaving handguns does not make us safer.

[morningfog]

22. Recommend!

[Posteritatis]

28. While there's need for a discussion, next-day kneejerk legislation is the very worst kind. (nt)

[gkhouston]

29. After the funerals.

But not too long after.

[NutmegYankee]

30. CT has an AWB. It obviously did nothing.

CT isn't a loose gun law state.

[pnwmom]

31. Connecticut is a tiny state. You can zip cross the border into a state

that does not have a ban.

What we need is a FEDERAL ban, not a state-by-state ban. They're completely ineffective.

[derby378]

61. That Federal ban was pretty ineffective, too

Remember Columbine? Happened during the Federal ban.

[pnwmom]

64. That's because of a major loophole involving private sales -- which can and should be closed.

[Recursion]

100. No. It's because it banned a completely arbitrary and stupid set of features

And basically resulted in semi-automatic rifles with pistol grips not having bayonet lugs.

[marions ghost]

33. Time does not heal

"Researchers say their findings, which were presented at a conference on law and mental health in New York, show time does not heal all wounds and the issue of psychological damage is being overlooked.

"Since the 1999 Columbine tragedy there have been sixty school shootings, double the rate seen in the previous decade. These school shootings have resulted in 181 deaths," said psychiatrist Dr Warren Steiner, of McGill University, Montreal."

This is from an article written in 2009:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5689760/Mass-school-shootings-double-in-a-decade-report-shows.html

-----------------
Ditto plus 1000---when ARE we going to wake up from the delusion that this is acceptable in a civilized society?

[kentuck]

37. There is no reason to have an assault weapon.

Just because someone may like them does not outweigh the safety of everyone else.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

38. Today's assault weapon defender is tomorrow's mass shooter. nt

[laundry_queen]

108. Or parent of. nt

[Edweird]

45. Sounds a lot like the planning for the invasion of Iraq.

[rrneck]

52. Okay. What exactly are we banning?

Define assault weapon.

[TheKentuckian]

63. Whatever can be got under one.

Be it decorative, functional, conceptual, or actual just whatever can be permanently put on the books to establish a new foothold.

[rrneck]

65. Well y'see

that's the kind of thinking that got us the last AWB. The one that didn't work.

[TheKentuckian]

110. I agree. I'm not on the bandwagon just saying what is up.

If anything was learned is to get what they can without a sunset provision, and I'm not sure of that.

If you are talking actual function, you can pretty much forget about it between willful ignorance and dishonesty because some comprehend that they could get caught over reaching too soon and kill whatever momentum they may have.

That is why you get pictures of black guns and answers like the ability to kill a lot of people in a short amount of time.
A few have went for what the minimum actual objective is, a ban on semiautomatic weapons for civilians. A small number but some with a lesser number calling for banning all guns and fewer yet calling for confiscation backed by house to house searches to enforce it. Most get they can't run into the teeth of the defense, some perhaps don't wish to but do wish to address the carnage of these outbursts. So, the consensus is something, anything, and as much as possible. The AWB passed before so it is a natural anchor point, the flaws the creations of the NRA boogieman not poor crafting and limited understanding.

[Recursion]

60. You're even admitting it doesn't matter if the AWB would be relevant to preventing this crime...

...so why bother passing it?

It's a pointless law. It's a stupid law. It antagonizes gun owners without addressing the guns that are actually used in crimes. Why do people like it so much?

[Warren DeMontague]

69. How about anything that fires more than six bullets an hour.

If you cant defend your house or kill a deer at that fire rate, find an alternative.

[SajayHobbs]

72. Patheitc and weak

Repeal the entire 2nd Amendment!!

[davidn3600]

80. 2/3rds of both House and Senate plus 3/4ths of the states

Sorry but the 2nd amendment is going absolutely nowhere.

[Codeine]

84. Good luck with that. nt

[aikoaiko]

73. pnwmom, the AWB didn't do what you think it did.

This is a picture of the rifle I bought new during the AWB:

[IMG][/IMG]

Its an AR-15 semi-auto rifle called a PCR by Olympic Arms.

It is exactly like the ones that were banned except it didn't have a flash hider, bayonet lug, and collapsible stock. Those features really wont do much to help or hurt someone who wants to use the rifle to kill someone.

[rl6214]

97. That was my first AR type weapon purchased

Also during the 94 AWB

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

85. Putting the horrific tradgedy aside and simply analyzing the content of this OP...

More or less, this is what the OP says: We need a kneejuerk reaction... hurry before the dust settles. NOW! Facts don't matter when considering the enlistment of sound legislation (use your emotions, people!).



Right; because spur-of-the moment emotional decisions are always great ideas. The really ironic part about this post is that right after a paragraph of appealing readers/people to act on immediately emotion (not rational thought or facts or due process) he asks, "When are we going to wake up?" If you aren't encouraging ACTUAL thinking, what do you mean by "wake-up"?



If anyone ever wonders why most gun control efforts lack effectiveness... I give you the OP as "Exhibit A".

[rl6214]

86. How many have EVER been used in a crime?

[derby378]

101. Handguns and shotguns have been used way, way more in crime, including homicide

The FBI's own numbers bear witness to this fact.

[lib2DaBone]

93. This is not just about guns..... there is SO much more ...

Its too lengthy to go into here.

But, Yes... guns are PART of the problem.. but not the total problem.

In Japan, a 20-something went on a killing spree and stabbed 13 children. (Guns are almost unheard of in Japan.. but the perp did find a way to carry out his mission).

Don't be bought-off on the oh-so obvious facts about guns. Yes, easy access to guns makes killing eaiser.

But The PTB WANT you to believe that guns are the simply and only answer.. but there is much more!