No matter if we stopped all gun sales tomorrow...

[kentuck]

There are still enough guns to arm every person in America. We don't have a gun problem as much as we have a nut problem. We have the right to keep guns out of the hands of nuts. We have the duty to protect our children and our society from these types of people. Even if they were using baseball bats instead of guns, the problem would still lie with the nuts.

[NoMoreWarNow]

1. sadly true-- the cows are out of the barn now

we need better mental health policing and better security at schools, for sure

[msongs]

2. so if gun owners threw bullets instead of shooting them from guns....yeah right nt

[Blaukraut]

3. Then stop ammo sales n/t

[TheDebbieDee]

10. Brilliant! Or, TAX the hell out of ammo........

Put a tax on ammo so big that it will fund Obamacare or some other worthy program.

I've heard both of those ideas before and they both sound great.

[GoCubsGo]

28. That would be great IF...

...there weren't already thousands of people with huge stockpiles of them now. The "Obama is going to let the UN take our guns" crowd has been buying ammo by the case. Can you say "black market"? And, given that the House is controlled by the NRA's bedfellows, I don't see any gun or ammo laws changed any time soon.

The only thing that is going to have any sort of effect is seriously stiffening up the penalties for gun crimes, and doing something about our mental health system.

[TheDebbieDee]

50. So, make the tax retroactive................

Let ATF teams search out stashes of ammo with metal detectors and when they find a stash of ammo, have the IRS send them a bill of so many hundreds of $ per pound. Let the interest accrue if they won't pay their taxes. Let the IRS take away their property and freeze their bank accounts, etc, etc.

We can make it so that country will be full of guns that should go into a museum because there won't be any bullets to put in them.

[GoCubsGo]

58. Good luck with that.

There's no way we'll get any tax passed with this current Congress, let alone the means to hire the thousands of ATF agents that will be needed to do what you propose. And, then there is the issue of getting search warrants in a court system that so back-logged, it isn't funny.

[TheDebbieDee]

64. I'm sure there are other ways to get things done - I'm just saying that we should DO something

other than defer to people's 2nd AMENDMENT rights.

ETA: It's up to us to change the laws......and yes, laws and amendments can be changed. If it weren't for Americans changing laws and amending amendments, I'd still be a slave.

One thing about repukes - they think outside-the-box to get their evil shit done. But they get it done........and the progressives and Democrats are left trying to figure out how to undo it. Progressives and Dems follow the rules.

Repukes change the rules or just flat out break them and laugh in our faces.

[GoCubsGo]

68. I agree something needs to be done, but I'm not optimistic that it's possible right now.

I just think some things are too far gone at this point--like the number of guns and the amount of ammo that is already in circulation. There is no way in hell we'll ever be able to reduce those numbers, tax them, or anything else. I would suggest gun and ammo buy-backs, but I can't see our rethug-controlled House even consider having taxpayers footing the bill for something like that. They are too beholden to the gun lobby, and to drowning the government in the bathtub. They have also scared to many people into being willing to part with weapons they have no business having. And, the manufacturers will still keep pumping them out.

I definitely agree that laws need to be changed AND strictly enforced. The problem is, the obstructionists control one of the houses of Congress, and you can't pass laws without the House. I just hope that some of the rethugs come to their senses over this latest shooting. But, I don't have a lot of hope about that. These are the same people who saw one of their own get shot in the head, and they saw what it did to her. And, they've still been doing nothing about gun violence despite that, and despite several subsequent shootings. I just don't have a lot of hope about things changing at this point. Maybe if the Dems can get the House back in 2014...

[Renew Deal]

76. The Chris Rock Solution

Bullet Control

[Fresh_Start]

4. so make a law that legal gun owners have to surrender all but one of their guns

eminent domain.

[Lizzie Poppet]

6. It's a common maxim among military officers...

It's a common maxim among military officers, "never give an order you know will be disobeyed." I think something similar applies to passing laws (see: Prohibition).

[baldguy]

31. Are you saying "law-abiding gun owners" won't abide by the law?

Why should they be trusted with firearms then?

[Lizzie Poppet]

40. Are you saying that people should always obey they law, regardless?

Sometimes the law is wrong...so wrong that to obey is is worse than not to.

[baldguy]

41. The community of gun owners have proven they are incapable of keeping their weapons secure.

A national gun ban would be the only right & reasonable solution. If you believe otherwise then you're part of the problem & the rest of us are sick of you.

[Lizzie Poppet]

43. That's an assertion I think you will be hard pressed to factually support.

Tens of millions of gun owners. Hundreds of millions of guns. Around 12k firearms homicides per year (don't have figures handy for woundings). Number of non-fatal firearms-related incidents: c. 325k. Firearms crimes as a percentage of all violent incidents: 8%. (the latter stats courtesy of the DoJ's Bureau of Justice Statistics)

By any rational measure, American gun owners are pretty good at securing their weapons. I agree very strongly with harsh punishment s for those who fail to properly secure their weapons and those weapons subsequently fall into the hands of criminals...been advocating that for a long time. But to call a national gun ban the "right and reasonable solution" is absurd.

[baldguy]

46. In the last 30 yrs there have been 61 shootings across the country with 4+ people killed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/mass-shootings-around-the-us-amp_n_2303432.html

Pick the same time period for any other industrialized country on the planet, you can count their mass shootings on one hand - if they had any at all. If you don't recognize the problem THEN YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM!

[rdking647]

72. you realize thats about the same # killed by lighning

[baldguy]

73. Deaths by lightening per year: 63. Deaths by guns per year: 30,000.

Let me know when you find the manufacturers of lighten bolts spending millions of dollars advocating their use, and millions of dollars lobbying for laws against lighten rods.

Thank you for presenting the standard RW NRA lies, but nobody is buying them anymore.

[Spider Jerusalem]

62. Not really

what's absurd is acting like the ease of acquisition of firearms isn't the problem; we hear, when something like this happens, "well what about law-abiding gun owners blah blah blah" without really much acknowledgement of the fact that in almost every instance of mass shooting like this the shooter was a previously "law-abiding" gun owner who in almost every case was using a weapon legally acquired.

[Codeine]

7. That's bound to end well. nt

[doc03]

5. How about at least making all gun sales go through a license dealer

with the FBI paperwork. If you keep one nut from buying a gun and killing one six year old it is worth it.

[hack89]

54. My state has done that - but it has to be done at the state level

it is not a federal issue.

[doc03]

70. Why? n/t

[hack89]

74. The Feds only have jurisdiction over interstate commerce

intrastate commerce is purely a state matter.

The Commerce Clause of the Constitution is the legal foundation.

[doc03]

75. Well in that case how do they get away with making you do the paperwork

when you buy from a license dealer in or out of state.? I can go out and sell a AR-15 to any nut case that comes by as long as it is in state. But a if it is a license dealer he has to do the paperwork in state and out of state the gun has to be transfered to a dealer in that state for pick up. How do they do that if it is states rights?

[hack89]

77. Dealers are involved in interstate commerce

their inventory comes from all over the world and they sell to customers all over the country.

Interstate commerce is within the jurisdiction of the federal government per the commerce clause of the constitution.

Me selling my private property to another state resident while we are both in my state is purely a state matte.

[doc03]

79. The gun lobby always has an excuse to not do anything. What if I open a gun shop and

buy guns made in my state and just sell them to residents of my state? I don't need any license and no paperwork all I need is a business permit. If only states are allowed to regulate gun sales then any laws are totally worthless. Laws can be passed outlawing semi-auto weapons and no weapon with more than a six shot capacity then. We could even make flintlocks and black powder the only gun permitted for civilian use. If nukes can be illegal that means you could define any gun more advanced than the weapons available when the 2nd Amend mt was written.

[hack89]

81. It is not the gun lobby that is interpreting the Constitution

in a way you don't like

As for your example, it might work. Doubt it would be very successful but if you carved out some sort of specialty niche perhaps you could.

[doc03]

82. I think you are full of NRA bs. Something can be done n/t

[hack89]

83. The law is the law

if you want to actually do something then it will take more than just wishful thinking on your part.

If it is true then it is not NRA bs. If it is not true then feel free to make an actual argument that proves it.

[Ilsa]

8. Eventually, all of the guns will be

Found and disposed of. It might take a century, but eventually our society will look back and wonder, "What the hell were they thinking?"

[BlueStreak]

9. Our lack of laws sets a certain attitude about what is "normal"

The people who do these things aren't usually among the most stable, but they usually aren't completely nuts either. And if a person is somewhere in the netherlands of values and conscience, he may take some signals from how society treats guns.

When we say it is OK for anybody to walk into a gun show and walk out with any amount of arms, that says something.

When we have virtually no checking on purchases at "legitimate" gun shops and less follow-up than we have for a driver's license, that says something.

When we market video games to children and 90% are able simulating the act of gruesome murder, that says something.

We don't have to impound all guns to make a better situation for everyone, and I don't know anybody who is even remotely suggesting that all guns should be rounded up. You are presenting a straw man argument. If you are determined to do that, please at least wait for some other day to make us listen to that.

[theKed]

23. Hold up

Before I go on, I wholeheartedly endorse MUCH stricter gun controls and am not in any way diminishing that argument

BUT...

There is little, if any, connection between video games and real-life violence. In fact there have been numerous studies and court cases that say precisely that. Despite that, there is a stringent industry-enforced rating system to inform on the content of games. Why dont we include Hollywood in that attitude?

[BlueStreak]

39. And you know that how?

[theKed]

48. Google is a very useful tool

Start with Jack Chick, for a good laugh.

[BlueStreak]

65. There is certainly some research that shows a correlation between violent games and real violence

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8449-violent-video-games-alter-brains-response-to-violence.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-first-clear-link-between-violent-video-games-and-hostility-2012-10

[theKed]

69. And a whole bunch that doesn't

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1559-1816.1997.tb01800.x/abstract

" There was no significant relationship between the amount of time children spent on videogames and aggressive behavior...a positive relationship was found between time spent on videogames and a child's intelligence."

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2010/05/10/video-games-dont-cause-children-to-be-violent

"According to FBI statistics, youth violence has declined in recent years as computer and video game popularity soared. We do not claim that the increased popularity of games caused the decline, but the evidence makes a mockery of the suggestion that video games cause violent behavior. Indeed, as the U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals declared: “The state has not produced substantial evidence that … violent video games cause psychological or neurological harm to minors.” "

http://www.thelocal.se/37756/20111206/#.UM1PZCr7GQg

"A great deal of the research exploring causal links between violent computer games and aggressive behaviour “suffer from serious methodological deficiencies” and don't provide sufficient evidence to establish a causal relationship."

Also these:






Correction to my previous post. I meant Jack Thompson, not Jack Chick (he's the crazy comicbook nutter - though worth a look for a chuckle, too)

[BlueStreak]

71. That is absurd

We are not talking about averages. We are talking about the 1% of the population that is a bit unbalanced. To argue that these constant images glorifying violence cannot have an influence on the already off-center people out there -- that is just ridiculous -- not worthy of any serious discussion. Obviously it can have an influence. The media violence has an impact on me and I feel like I am mentally stable. It is not just video games. A substantial part of the programming on teevee has is compression of violence. You can watch 20 murders a night if you look for violent programming.

[theKed]

78. Video games and tv/movies

Are separate discussions. The studies and statistics are not on both together and we can't draw them into the same conclusions.

And yes, we are in fact talking about averages. We were from the start, and I'm not about to change the goalposts now. You can say that aggressive people are drawn to violent games, and I'm not denying that happens, but that is a striking correlation/causation fallacy.

[kentuck]

11. With our modern technology...

I would think that we could classify certain behaviors as barriers to gun ownership. Anyone arrested for violent crimes would be on the computer list. This would include domestic violence, certain behaviors in elementary school and high school would put these people on the "no gun" lists, just like sexual predators. It could be left to professionals to define these behaviors. It would not stop all crimes but it could make us a safer society, in my opinion.

[TomClash]

14. This makes sense

There is no need to compound violent crime or mental illness with assault weapons.

[Angleae]

18. Anyone arrested?

Of course no one has been accused of a crime he/she did not commit.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

34. Just use Homeland Security's No-Fly List

If your name gets on the list, nobody will tell you why it's there.

Once your name is on it, there's no way to have it removed.

It's perfect.

Well, perfect, except that it won't stop criminals from acquiring guns. Supply will always meet demand. Note the success of the War on Drugs.

[Union Scribe]

61. arrested, or convicted?

Anyone can be arrested.

[JI7]

13. maybe if we started after Columbine we could have avoided this one

a teacher of the kids killed did have guns and it ended up killing them .

[marlakay]

15. ever since they closed the mental hospitals

and since health care cost so much and a lot doesn't include good mental care this kind of stuff will keep happening.

[Comatose Sphagetti]

16. Single shot weapons only

Make January 1, 2013, national turn in anything with a clip, magazine, or cylinder day. Mandatory. Get caught and it's an automatic five years.

[Panasonic]

17. Lifetime in prison without parole.

Yep.

Anyone caught with that ought to be sentenced to death, but lifetime in prison with nothing but gruel is a fitting punishment.

[sendero]

19. The guns...

... were here 5 years ago, they were here 10 years ago, they were here 20 years ago, they were here 30 years ago - I know everyone is hurting and it is sad beyond belief but look somewhere else, it is not the guns.

[aandegoons]

20. wrong the world doesn't end tomorrow.

Things are not instant. But damn fuckers equating something produced to play a game and something produced to kill people will try their best to kill the children of the future by trying to stop us from starting to address the problem.

When the next 18 or 20 or 80 kids killed by guns you should stop and think of the little part you played in it.

[99Forever]

21. When you have a foolproof method of identifying...

... exactly who are "these types of people," that will work. But there is no such method or anything even remotely close.

There is however, a very reliable method of identifying which guns are capable of killing people.


That would be all of them.

[Savannahmann]

22. Bite me.

Oh you have got to be kidding me. We can't do anything about guns, there are too many. Bullshit. We ban them. We ban them and then we tell the owners to turn them in, or go to jail for life. We ban them and make it a lifetime in the worst prison in the world for keeping them. We ban them period.

In 1962 John F. Kennedy said we were going to the Moon, not because it was easy, but because it was hard. Now, we can't act to prevent situations where twenty six people are slaughtered. It's just too hard. We could go to the Moon, we could conquer the impossible, but that is really impossible, we can't do it.

So to hell with your bullshit. We can do it. We won't. We don't give a shit as a country about all the deaths every year. So when a family member, or a friend dies, don't come here looking for sympathy, because we're supposed to celebrate the beautiful right to keep and bear arms. That is what all you fuckers with your we can't do anything about it bullshit are really saying.

[kentuck]

26. I'm sorry you misunderstood my post.

I am not supporting guns. I am saying we have the right to protect ourselves and our children from these guns. I am not naive. The guns that are already here are not going to go away and you are not going to do anything about it. I'm sorry, but that is the reality. It is a societal problem. The worship of guns and the 2nd Amendment should cease in our society, in my opinion. That would be a good first step. There is too much violence, in our movies and everywhere. I do not claim to be an expert. I am as shaken as anyone else by this senseless act of violence. Why? Why?? Why?!!

[pintobean]

27. Your avatar is an infant with a gun

You might want to change that, if you want to be taken seriously.

[quaker bill]

24. Not a "gun" problem, a "nuts with guns" problem

You can have all the guns you like, in a gun safe with trigger locks attached. As long as they stay there, we will have absolutely no problems at all. Guns are inanimate objects. The problem is when nuts get hold of them and have sufficient ammo.

The other half of the problem arises when you can only call a nut truly a "nut" at the moment when he opens fire. It is a tad late then.

Yes, nuts will use baseball bats and broadswords if pressed. But in either case will generally and on average do less damage before they are stopped.

Nuts will exist and so will guns, so how do we more effectively keep them apart?

[tiny elvis]

25. 'nut' and 'types of people' are not legal terms, for good reasons

masturgunners are playing you

ten thousand people a year are not killed by nuts

[baldguy]

29. Sorry, we do have a gun problem. And I don't believe we are doomed to live in an armed madhouse.

We CAN make this better - if we can work together & be brave enough to stand up to the dogmatic gun-nuts who deny the problem.

The community of gun owners have proven that they do not have the capacity to secure their weapons from people who are intent on killing. Ban gun sales. That's the only solution.

[kentuck]

32. Perhaps my point was not well made?

If we ban all gun sales tomorrow, what do we do about the 300 million guns already out there? Do we go door to door and confiscate them? Do we send the police door to door?

I agree with you that there are too many guns. And that is a problem. But, the mental health issue needs to be addressed also, and it seems to me the best route to go, even though I would not oppose seeing all guns outlawed, even those in the hands of militaries around the world.

This is so devastating. Words cannot express.

[Raine]

36. Yes, exactly. nt

[Zoeisright]

45. Yes. That's exactly what we do.

The mental health issue is a fucking bandaid.

Tine to put your big girl panties on and do something instead of whining.

[Codeine]

47. Do you truly believe that the American people

will support the authorities moving from house to house and taking away a right enshrined in the foundational texts that created our country?

You can call for it 'til you're blue in the face, but know that your dream of door-to-door weapons confiscation will not occur in your lifetime.

[baldguy]

49. The "right" to own a gun is akin to the "right" to own a slave.

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 02:49 PM - Edit history (1)

It's an idea whose time has passed & needs to be taken away - for our own safety & security.

[Logical]

60. Your argument is 100% correct. Many just cannot realize that you cannot stop a lone nut when....

there are 300 million guns available!

[Spider Jerusalem]

63. Confiscation and buyback

it's worked in other countries (other countries that admittedly don't have America's culture of violence, "self-reliance", and fucked-up frontier mythos).

[Democracyinkind]

30. Ammo tax.

Not my preferred method, but may be the most worthwhile for being politically realistic.

Make some provisions for tax free ammo at gun ranges, without the option of leaving the range with them. (Sounds ridiculous, I know, but works in Switzerland, where most males have an automatic assault rifle in their home (mandatory military service), but no ammo for it. Drastic punishment for leaving a range with live ammo).

Would be an appropriate first step.

[hack89]

56. Unconstitutional

it is like a poll tax or taxing newsprint to control the press - any tax designed to restrict the exercise of an enumerated right is unconstitutional. There is plenty of case law on the matte.

[Democracyinkind]

57. 4th&10th

que sera, sera...

[Logical]

59. Silly. So this NUT who wants to shoot up a school will worry about a little higher cost?

[Raine]

33. Totally Agree. nt

[kentuck]

35. Attack me if you wish...

But I think a good first step is to create a federal program to identify mental illness and make it free to all parents and relatives of people who they think might need help. There should be facilities in every community across this nation to help folks with mental illness. We see them every day. We pass them as we go into Walgreen's or as we pass the Salvation Army kettles or as they panhandle downtown. They are everywhere.

Once these folks are identified with an illness, they should never have access to any type of guns. Yes, they can steal them but there is no fool-proof system that can be 100% effective. But I think this would be a good first step. We need to make a country a mentally healthier nation.

[retread]

37. Whatever you do DON'T TAKE

[kentuck]

38. +10000

That says a lot!

[Lex]

42. The problem is the GUNS that the "nuts" get. So yeah, guns are the problem. nt

[Zoeisright]

44. Completely fucking wrong.

We have a gun problem. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deranged.

[Warren Stupidity]

51. Best to do nothing, right?

And no, baseball bats and knives would not enable mass murderers as a 30 shot glock does.

[Glitterati]

52. Time to define "well REGULATED militia"

So much wiggle room in the 2A, we'll be able to correct the mistakes we've made.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

53. "A journey of 1000 li begins with one step." Lao Tse

stopping sales may not be the solution but it could be the beginning of the solution.

[Hoyt]

55. It can't hurt to start now. That's a lame excuse to allow folks to continue arming up.

[KoKo]

66. BOTH PROBLEMS are EQUAL.... n/t

[surrealAmerican]

67. It would probably take thirty years ...

... for a new sales ban to work. It's too bad we wasted so much time. If only we had been forward thinking in 1980, we'd be in a much better place now. Do our children need to be saying the same thing thirty years from now?

[arthritisR_US]

80. You have to start somewhere, defeatist attitude is

so counter productive.