Those of you who post 'it's not the guns' or 'we need to move beyond the guns'

[DainBramaged]

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:45 AM - Edit history (1)

need to know that WE realize you are clinging to your guns hoping beyond hope that this too shall pass and America will become complacent again while you dream about that new 9mm or even .223 down at the gun store.


It shall not pass this time. Too many deaths the deaths of the innocent, your right to buy any size magazine, any assault rifle, any fucking cannon you choose will soon be restricted, all because we're fed up.


Count your guns, if you think you don't have enough, the sickness lies with you and not us.


This time we're serious.


You can post the Chinese knife assault story as many times as you want, compare drone attacks and try to moralize the deaths as if it's our fault, but the time is coming.


Count your guns and be happy you'll be keeping them. 300,000,000 guns in this country are too too many guns.


Enough is enough.

[Buddaman]

1. Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Skip Intro]

2. Why don't you take the guns from the criminals and thugs

before you try to take them from law-abiding citizens?

[morningfog]

4. Beacuse the ones the "law-abiding citizens" own find their way to the criminals.

[Justin_Beach]

9. And also

all a "law-abiding citizen" has to do is - for some reason, just for a second, forget that they are "law-abiding" and someone is dead.

[calimary]

60. Welcome to DU, Justin_Beach.

Um...could I add that the MOM of that gunman was probably quite a law-abiding citizen. And those guns were hers. Obtained legally. WHY THE HELL SHOULD SHE HAVE HAD GUNS IN HER HOME, WHEN SHE LIVED WITH A MENTALLY-UNSTABLE FAMILY MEMBER - IN THAT SAME HOME???????????

I mourn her murder, too. But Jesus, Mary, and Joseph - WHY on God's Green Earth should someone like her be allowed to have a bunch of guns in her home, when she lived with a mentally unstable family member?????? WHY is that allowed??????????

Glad you're here. Good point you made.

I remember when John Lennon was shot by that nutcase "fan" mark david chapman. We just passed that assassination anniversary six days ago. That was in 1980. ronald reagan had just been elected, and as President-Elect, he was asked to comment. He blathered some mealy-mouthed crap about how it was a tragedy what happened to John Lennon, but God Forbid we be prevented from having our precious fucking guns!!! Ironically, it was the following March when reagan, himself, was shot by some nutcase, and was almost killed.

It's JUST. GOT. TO. STOP. Paraphrasing a famous quote - at long last, have WE no decency????????

[Justin_Beach]

125. Thanks for the welcome

and I agree that it has to stop.

I don't think though that just banning guns is enough ... If I were suddenly in charge of stuff what I'd do (in the US and Canada) is ...

1) Gun control (plenty is being said about that)
2) Amend the requisite heath care laws to require that mental health care be a part of all health coverage policies (government and private)
3) Make violent crime (all violent crime) the top priority of law enforcement
4) Make the top priority of prisons to separate from society individuals who pose a physical threat to society
5) Require that any person convicted of a violent crime (any violent crime, including domestic abuse and simple assault) submit to a psychiatric evaluation and amend sentencing laws so that no person can be released until it is deemed safe to allow them to do so (basically consider violent tendencies and behavior to be a mental disorder in and of itself).

It is unlikely that we will ever get rid of violence, not completely, not in the foreseeable future anyway - but I think the measures above would mitigate it as much as is currently possible.

Something also needs to be done about the culture of violence but you cannot change a culture with a law, or even at gunpoint (as we're learning in Afghanistan).

[calimary]

127. Like all of these!

Yeah. I understand that, too - we'll never get rid of all the guns, much as I'd like to see happen. But at the very least, we can cut way way way back on them, limit them, and try to cut the statistics as drastically as we can.

[Tumbulu]

49. ding ding ding!!!!! You got it! nt

[Skip Intro]

59. Therefore we must...?

[morningfog]

63. Require gun registration and enforce liability on gun owners when

their guns kill people.

[Skip Intro]

66. Registration is fine, but let me ask you,

on the liability idea - do you mean that if I own a gun and someone breaks into my home and steals my gun I become the criminal?

[morningfog]

75. No. If you failed to properly secure your gun and it was used in a crime,

you should be held civilly and perhaps criminally liable. Like any charge, defenses could be made. If evidence showed the gun was unlocked, unsecured, with ammo nearby and a child or friend took it, then the owner should be held to some liability.

Similarly, if someone sold their gun to circumvent background checks or waiting periods, liability should extend.

[Skip Intro]

85. Say I live alone, keep a gun under my mattress.

One day I come home from work to see my place has been broken into and many things are missing, including my gun. Say that gun was used to rob a 7-11 in the meantime, and the clerk was shot. Are you saying I am responsible for the clerk getting shot? I'm the criminal in that situation?

[morningfog]

88. That's not what I said.

[Skip Intro]

91. I'm asking you. Would I be liable in that situation?

[morningfog]

95. It sounds like you would have a reasonable defense in that situation.

Report the gun as stolen when you discover it.

[TransitJohn]

145. You should be.

Your gun was what is known as an attractive nuisance. Liability should definitely apply.

[Skip Intro]

146. Please never run for office. nt

[Chisox08]

78. If your guns get stolen then you have the duty to report your guns stole to the police.

If you don't, you should be held responsible for crimes committed with your guns because you failed to report the guns stolen. If someone steals my car and run over 10 people and I failed to report my car stolen, the police are going to come looking for me. The same thing should happen with guns.

[Skip Intro]

82. Yeah, I'm sure most would report their guns stolen. nt

[morningfog]

89. Why wouldn't you report your registered gun to the police if it were stolen?

[Skip Intro]

94. I would. I'm sure the vast majority of legal owners would. nt

[morningfog]

97. Oh, gotcha. Sorry, I read it as sarcasm.

[DainBramaged]

5. Where do you think they get them from, the gun fairy?

[Skip Intro]

14. Wait, so in order to stop thugs from having guns, we must

prevent responsible, law-abiding citizens to own them?

Maybe you should explain the plan, I might be missing something.

[DainBramaged]

15. AGAIN, IF YOU READ THE POST INSTEAD OF GETTING YOUR NRA UP

jesus I expected better of you...

[Skip Intro]

28. Ohhh...all caps, with a veiled NRA accusation.

I guess that makes you right or something.

Seriously, what is the plan?

[DainBramaged]

29. HAHAHAHAHA nice try yep, have a nice night Skip

fear, it's good for you.

[Skip Intro]

31. I think you might need some rest man.

Fear? Of what? From who? It's good? Fear is good? I hope you don't own a gun.

[DainBramaged]

33. Nope not since the '60's

your fear of 'us' coming for 'your' guns is refreshing. And one last time, you didn't understand a single sentence I wrote, so sad.

[Skip Intro]

36. o - k...

You are making less sense with each post.

I don't fear you coming for my guns, because I don't have any guns. Yet. And because, huff and puff as much as you like on an anonymous internet discussion board, you won't change the constitution in regard to my rights, and the rights of others, on this issue. So nah, no fear here.

As far as you OP goes, I tried to understand what was written, but it was a bit incoherent and vague, and your subsequent posts haven't been much more clear.

Get some rest.

[DainBramaged]

37. Jesus fucking Christ on a popsicle stick is this last sentence plain enough?

Count your guns and be happy you'll be keeping them


Go bother someone else.

[Skip Intro]

42. I'm going to suggest some rest one more time.

Maybe a valium.

[Tumbulu]

51. You have revealed yourself as a rude person

and weakened your arguments.

[Skip Intro]

55. I have been rude?

Are you sure you're replying to the right poster?

There is a lot of rudeness in this thread, but I don't believe I was part of it.

Please, where was I rude?

[Ghost in the Machine]

64. Kind of strange, isn't it??

But.... just consider the source!

How far over the edge would he go if we suggested the "UAW" avatar next to his name stood for "Unlimited Automatic Weapons!"???



Ghost

[DainBramaged]

73. Thanks Ghost....

[Ghost in the Machine]

121. Dude, you know I pick at you because I like you, right? If I didn't, I wouldn't give you the time of

day! We may not agree on a lot of things, but we do agree on more than we disagree. We're on the same side here, buddy.... we just happen to be on different sides of this particular issue...

Peace to you and yours,

Ghost

[Skip Intro]

90. Oh man, Ghost.

I don't even know what to say to that, lol.

[Ghost in the Machine]

122. Read my above reply to him. it'll explain a lot...

Peace,

Ghost

[Skip Intro]

124. classy

[iemitsu]

93. A constitutional right does not mean an unrestricted right.

We restrict and regulate every aspect of life in America but gun nuts seem to think that their favorite right is somehow sacrosanct, untouchable. We regulate speech, our property can be "taken", our privacy is invaded, our president can sign death warrants for American citizens un-convicted of crimes, etc., etc., etc., and these infringements on our rights are upheld as law in this country.
Why do second amendment freaks act as if restrictions on weapons is out of bounds?
The argument that guns protect you from victimization at home, has proved a weak argument and the notion of standing up to the government with your guns is absurd. All of the good and valuable reasons for owning a gun are fantasy.
Assault weapons, designed and built to assault/kill people, should not be available to the general public. There is no good purpose for these weapons.
These guns are a problem for our society.
Continually defending gun rights, with the claim that people are the problem not the guns, is ignoring the reality that people with guns are the problem (perhaps not all people but enough that its a problem). People without guns may cause problems too but that is a separate issue and doesn't negate the gun problem.
The problems associated with the easy availability of guns are reflective, and an aspect, of our wider subscription to continual war and the production of military hardware. This priority will be the ruin of the nation and our communities both financially and morally.
Parroting gun lobby slogans ("guns don't kill people, people kill people&quot to defend relaxed regulations of weapons is like insisting that Coca Cola is good for you because its the real thing. Its time to recognize that what gun manufacturers say is good for us may not really be what's good for us.

[Chisox08]

79. For all we know this murderer was a law-abiding citizen before he killed those children.

Zimmerman was a law-abiding citizen before he hunted down and murdered Travon. That football player was a law-abiding citizen before he killed his wife.

[DainBramaged]

6. Dude, we're not taking any, we're just going to stop the proliferation

count your guns, pray to your steel gods, now I lay me down to ammo, I pray to powder my brass is hammered...

[Generic Brad]

13. I'd rather eliminate the ammo

That way you get to keep your gun and no one gets hurt.

[Tumbulu]

54. I say hold the ammo manufacturers liable for damages

caused. Cities, counties, individuals harmed need to sue these companies. Put them out of business. Or at least force them to come up with a system to protect themselves.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Background checks

Are the same as taking precious away....

Yup, it makes perfect sense...

The political reality is that closing the gun show loophole, mandating background checks, bringing back the AWB make sense...and nobody will take your precious away.

Look, I am all for licensing, even if that will affect me... Enough already!!!

[DainBramaged]

23. take your precious away

BEST line of the day.....

[regnaD kciN]

40. I think your "gun fairy" line was better...

[Skip Intro]

30. Wow. Why the snark? Can we only talk of the issue

if we agree with some vague anti-gun rights OP threatening gun owners that "we" have had enogh?

Who said anything about being against background checks? Or closing the gun show loophole? Or bringing back the AWB? None of that was mentioned in the OP.

Why the hostility?

Do you want to have a dialog or be pointlessly snarky?

[Chorophyll]

69. Dude I keep reading your posts, but all I can think about is that

20 little kids are dead today. And those guns were legally owned by the shooter's mother. (Those guns protected her really well, huh?)

So if you're getting a little bit of hostility here, that might be why.

Maybe you should get a new hobby.

[Skip Intro]

77. Well, I wasn't addressing you, but

do you think anyone is happy that 20 kids are dead? Do you think anyone is enjoying this situation? This thread, I believe, was about guns, gun owners, and the rights of citizens to be armed. This being a discussion board, that topic is being discussed (or at least an attempt at discussion is being made). In a discussion, people often have differing views. If encountering views that might not match your views exactly bothers you, I think maybe it is you who should get a new hobby.

[Chorophyll]

99. I know you weren't addressing me. But as you've just pointed out, this is a discussion board.

So basically, I'm just still wondering what you would do to prevent five-year-olds from getting shot in kindergarten. What's your plan?

[Skip Intro]

106. Again, I don't know that it could have been prevented.

Had someone nearby been legally armed, they could have shot the guy before he killed so many. Had someone seen the warning signs in this kid, they could have tried to get him help. Maybe he was on drugs. Maybe he was desensitized to real life by endless gaming. I don't know why he did what he did. But why is the vital question, not how.

[ComplimentarySwine]

115. How would any of that helped today?

He didn't get the guns from a gun show, he took them from his mom. Presumably his mom would have had no problem passing a background check since she was a staff member at an elementary school. To the best of my knowledge, neither of the handguns that he used were assault weapons by the definition set out in the '94 ban.

If he were required to have low-capacity magazines for his two handguns, well, that just means that he would have to change magazines more often. Since I don't imagine that a room full of scared kindergardeners would be able to put up much resistance, him having to pause for a second or two to change magazines doesn't seem like it would cause him much issue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. We are talking of long range policies that will start to stem this

I do not expect any rational policy to have immediate effect, not with 300 million plus guns in the streets. It took almost forty years to get here.

[Ikonoklast]

65. Because "law-abiding citizens" that own firearms are such...right up to the moment they decide

not to be.

What plan do you put forward to stop them?

Like that guy just indicted for murder after shooting that kid over a loud car radio?

He wasn't a criminal.

He was one of your vaunted "law-abiding citizens", with a gun, a temper, and bad judgement.

He's a criminal now.

What do you propose we do about guys like him?

[Skip Intro]

67. Ban car radios?

What about people that drive recklessly or impaired or distracted by cell phones or burst into road rage? Do we ban cars?

More to this issue, what percentage of gun deaths are caused by law-abiding citizens who own guns snapping and killing someone else? I don't know but I'm guessing the figure is a fraction of a percent. There have been over 400 gun-related homicides in Chicago this year. How many of them were killed by someone who fits the description of responsible, law-abiding legal gun owner?

[Chorophyll]

70. And what are your guns (presuming you have some)

doing to fix any of this? What's your solution? You're asking a lot questions in this thread, but offering no solutions. How would you have prevented what happened today?

[Skip Intro]

81. I'm not sure it could have been prevented.

Maybe a parent or friend should have encouraged the guy to seek some help? Maybe he was under the influence of bath salts or some stupid drug? Maybe he'd played a violent video game one too many times? Who knows why he did what he did. But the question to be asked is why, not how.

Had he set fire to the school, would you propose we ban matches?

[Chorophyll]

98. He blew away 20 kids with his mother's guns.

Matches do not enter into it. (Nor do cars. Matches and cars have other uses than sheer destruction. Guns don't.)

I do think that access to cheap or free mental health care would do some good in these cases. But the fact is, if the kid didn't have easy access to guns, he couldn't have destroyed so many lives.

Other countries -- decent, modern, liveable countries -- do not have mass shootings week after week after week. So I think we CAN prevent them here.

[Skip Intro]

104. Ultimately, it is up to you to protect yourself.

And I don't think shouting to an armed assailant breaking into your home that you oppose guns will do much to help you.

[Chorophyll]

107. You obviously don't have children. Was it up to those kindergarten kids to defend themselves?

Is it up to my eleven-year-old son to protect himself too? Like, while he's in math class or something? That's some victim-blaming shit right there. Why do we have government at all then? Why have any laws? Why not have anarchy? Your paranoia about armed assailants is what makes things shitty for the rest of us.

You've just proven yourself unworthy of being spoken to anymore.

[Skip Intro]

118. Don't do that. Don't be dishonest.

I didn't say children should protect themselves. Of course I was referring to adults, and in a much larger view than today's tragedy. Don't try to bend and twist my words and their clearly intended meaning.

For adults, in the end, you, each of us, are ultimately responsible for our own protection. That is a simple fact. You can trust the government to protect you if you like. You can tell the guy with a gun to your head to wait until the police arrive before he tries to harm you, entertain him with your views on gun control, if you like. But in the end we are all individuals on this planet and there are bad people who will try to harm any one of us, and often succeed in doing so. No law passed by the government, nor the fastest response by law enforcement will change that. And in the end, if you are not able to defend yourself, you are more than likely going to be a victim.

If you don't get what I'm saying, then it is because you don't want to. But don't try to twist what I'm saying into something else and then effuse fauxrage against it. That is a lowly, cowardly thing to do.

[Yukari Yakumo]

83. Was there anything that could have been done?

Even if you take away all the guns, he could've ended up using a ton of fertilizer and a U-Haul truck instead. What then? Ban all fertilizer?

"You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws - that's insane!" - Penn Jillette

[Chorophyll]

102. You can't prevent every single bad thing from happening, no.

But please look at the statistics for gun violence for every other developed nation on this planet and compare them to ours. The difference? Those other countries have reasonable gun control laws.

[Ikonoklast]

138. Go and try to buy a ton of anhydrous ammonia, then get back to me.

If you cannot show proof of a valid end use for it, you will not only be turned down, you will also be reported to law enforcement.

And they will come looking for you.

[xtraxritical]

103. Now you got it, yes we ban all automatics, hand guns, and clips with more than 5 shots.

In ten or twenty years all of them that were used in crimes will be confiscated by police and the problem will be mitigated. There is no over night fix but in ten or twenty years...

[Skip Intro]

108. I didn't say that, but I don't disagree with all of it. nt

[billh58]

72. Why do law abiding

citizens need to carry guns in public? Once again, trying to frame the argument as someone wants to take anyone's guns away is a false premise. You want a gun, keep it at home and be responsible for it.

If it gets stolen, or you sell it to someone who uses it for a crime, you are culpable and legally responsible for the crime as well as the perp. Guns are just as dangerous as any poison, and we regulate the hell out of chemicals.

80-100 gun deaths per day on average in the USA is cause for concern on a daily basis, and not just when some nut goes on a rampage.

[RC]

92. Because the criminals and thugs do not as a rule go around shooting up schools and Malls.

It is the law abiding citizen, until they walk into a school or Mall and start shooting.

[Skip Intro]

101. And how many were shot to death in Chicago this year?

400+

How many of the shooters there do you think were law-abiding citizens?

Multiply that figure by cities and towns across the nation.

What percentage of gun deaths in the US are cased by law-abiding, legally carrying gun owners?

I don't have the exact figure but I imagine that figure would be less than a fraction of one percent.

I wish there were no murders in the US. No attacks. But the fact is there are, from coast to coast. We only talk about the ones like today here. The media only talks about the ones like today. The daily shootings and murders across the country are off the radar screen, but they account for the vast majority of gun deaths in the US. And they are carried out by lawless criminals and thugs against law-abiding citizens. Law-abiding citizens who have right to defend themselves, I might add.

[DainBramaged]

109. You are just so so wrong

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2007/04/21/weekinreview/20070422_MARSH_GRAPHIC.html

[Skip Intro]

116. About what?

[Lint Head]

3. The dead children are speaking to the promoters of the tools of killing.

[RomneyLies]

7. Time to ban all "Massacre Magazines"*

.
.
.
.
.
* Term coined by a Freeper and now adopted by me because it frames the purpose of high capacity magazines.

[rustydog]

22. My three high capacity glock 19 magazines means I can take out 57 people

Why is this necessary? When will I need to fight off 57 people? I am going to get rid of the Glock. I bought it out of curiousity from a co-worker 7 years ago and do not need it.

America needs to enact gun control. period.

[abelenkpe]

32. Thank you

[Chorophyll]

74. Thank you.

Rational thinking.

[Justin_Beach]

8. Guns don't kill people ...

People kill people
With guns
And for some reason banning people has never been a popular option.

[DainBramaged]

17. What you didn't like I brushed your ass off so you're going to haunt me?

troll.

[Justin_Beach]

24. Sorry dude

Really don't have the time for your insecurity, and I basically consider you a Republican anyway. I'm putting you on ignore.

[DainBramaged]

25. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Like I said sock puppet or zombie, we'll find out sooner than later.

Goodbye hey...


BTW nice picture on your blog

[Tumbulu]

56. Well I vote that we ban you- get out of here!

Go back to freeperland!

[airplaneman]

100. Guns don't kill people - people kill people.

But people with guns kill a lot more people than people without guns.

[davidn3600]

10. Its not about clinging to guns. I dont even own a gun. It's about common freakin sense

And I dont care how serious you are. Unless you have the votes to repeal the second amendment, you are not going to accomplish a damn thing.

Those rights are put in there by our founding fathers. You need significant majorities to make that change. That's by design to protect us from people like you who want to trample our freedoms in the name of safety that you will never achieve.

[DainBramaged]

12. people like you who want to trample our freedoms = Right wing talking point

You didn't even read the post did you?

[davidn3600]

18. Ok...so now Im a right winger...

Im pro-choice. Im pro-union. I voted Obama. And Im a registered Democrat.

But now Im a right-wing extremist because Im against gun control..

OK...whatever dude..

[DainBramaged]

21. You still didn't read the post

guns trample the freedoms of 32 people every day, into their graves.


Don't play holier with thou my cred is better than your cred bullshit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Should I be impressed tough hombre?

You had to go through extensive background and licensing. You are trying to conflate that with the need to av those requirements for every gun owner!

[DainBramaged]

57. I don't want to take your guns away Sparky

I just don't think you should (or anyone else) own 7 full auto machine guns. Sport my wrinkled old ass.


And welcome to DU gun lover. So glad you showed up to tell US about your collection of death weapons.

100 Little one firearms. Expecting a war Sparky? YOU are the reason this country is in trouble, your NEED to own more than a few weapons make it worse for every single legitimate hunter in America, and you're so so proud of your precious.


Thanks for stopping by, and don't forget a vote for Romney was a waste of time.

[humbled_opinion]

41. wow slow down sparky...

How about taking a logical look at what happened here.... Control of those guns is exactly what caused this tragedy. Control is the key we can debate the most realistic way to enforce control but why are you so quick to take control off the table?

[Logical]

34. Believe me, this logical argument will not work on the DU. n-t

[Kingofalldems]

11. Well said.

[VanillaRhapsody]

16. The Second Amendment DOESN'T protect your right to own a bazooka...

and we don't seem to have a bazooka killing problem....but not allowing the ownership of bazookas doesn't seem to infringe on 2nd amendment rights.

[DainBramaged]

19. The 2nd doesn't protect your right to own ANY modern gun, period

we can go back to muzzle loaders for personal use.

[Lizzie Poppet]

35. An equally plausible argument can be made...

...that the second amendment guarantees your right to own the state-of-the-art weapons issued to individual soldiers (the contemporary definition of "arms&quot , but not artillery, etc. Personally, I think arguing the intent of the Framers is kind of missing the point...

[AtheistCrusader]

45. This line of logic has been tried with the 2nd and the 1st amendments both.

Both arguments have failed repeatedly before the SC.

Things like minimum barrel length, magazine size, things like can and have been regulated, but outright ban of non-black powder/musket type weapons would never fly.

[Lizzie Poppet]

50. I concur.

And if one is indeed using Framer intent as the guideline, I suspect that the argument that they "never envisioned this kind of firepower" would actually be rather less than relevant.

[AtheistCrusader]

43. Bazookas are classified as explosives and destructive devices.

Not firearms. Therefore, the courts have never held them to be protected under the 2nd Amendment. It is, in some cases, possible to possess them anyway, with various permits and such. It is extremely expensive, but possible.

AR-15's, however, are firearms, the line of logic then fails, per the SC.

In US. Vs. Miller, they ruled the public didn't have the right to possess short barreled shotguns, because they were not in common use by any military. (This was an error, but the defense didn't present the fact that there are SBR's and SBS's in use around the world by militaries, since Miller had died, and his counsel wandered off before the court got underway on the case.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Realistically you can't ban them

You can regulate them though.

Background checks, licensing, once smart technology becomes reliable, back fitting every gun in private possession to it (essentially it makes a gun only usable by the owner, so if kiddie gets a hand on it, or it gets taken away, you get a very satisfying click, but no bang) closing the gun show loophole and AWB...that you might be able to do.

And look, if I was up to me, I would make the second A work for the modern day...well regulated means armed forces, Guard, coasties, police. That's it. They are well regulated and drill often. For the record, that was the original intent and members of the militia came to drill every month with ther Kentucky riffles.

That is why it says "well regulated." Don't expect modern courts to know this, let alone the NRA. So if Wayne LaPierre wants his precious, join the guard you bum.

[DainBramaged]

27. We've tried for years, they have foiled us at every turn

You need a driver's license license to practice medicine, but buy a weapon of death, zip in many states. Gun Shows, still the wild west. Watch the out of trunk sales in the parking lots. Out of control.


The well armed militia in this country is armed with Budweiser.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Why I said what you need to do

Not what is happening. Good luck banning them. That is just sheer fantasy. Now I will trash this thread.

[BlueStreak]

38. It is the gun ATTITUDE

Which is to say, it is the attitude of those fighting any controls on guns.

The right wing has controlled the dialog in this country for a long time.

They bullied people into being homophobic.

They bullied people into not talking openly about the climate.

They bullied people about raising taxes.

They bullied people about "national defense".

They bullied people about guns. They even tried to bully women about the "woman's place".

We have reached the end of that era on all of the above counts. The pendulum is swinging, and it is pissed.

[Tumbulu]

61. So true!!!!! nt

[humbled_opinion]

39. Sounds like someone fired up and ready to go...

and we need to set up a March on D.C. get the same attention that those reicht wing pro gun activists get when they march.

[Walter White]

46. Disarm the Thugs, not the legal abiding citizens

Disarm the Thugs, not the legal abiding citizens. Crazies will always find a way to start a mass murder. Guns or not.

[DainBramaged]

62. For you too: did the gun fairy give them their guns?

and what thugs where? Please be specific.

[_ed_]

129. Please identify all the "thugs"

Where do we find them? I'm so sorry that your precious killing machines might be slightly regulated after 20 kids are laying dead, but you might just have to live in a world where gun nuts aren't the most important priority. Shame on you for being a useful idiot for the gun/ammo corporations and their lobbyists.

[LibGranny]

47. No more of this "guns don't kill people, people kill people" bull crap!

If you are a HUNTER AND CAN'T SHOOT YOUR QUARRY WITH A GUN THAT ONLY HOLDS 6 BULLETS - THEN You SHOULD NOT BE HUNTING! I believe the 2d Amendment was written back when people had to hunt for food and needed to keep their homes safe but time have changed! Most of the victims in todays shooting were KIDS - KINDERGARTEN KIDS! I'm so damn mad and sad I could spit nails!

[LibGranny]

48. Make guns a lot harder to obtain - no more

gun "shows" where you can easily buy a gun with a big clip! Make the waiting period 6 months or more and outlaw those big ammo clips! Do THOROUGH background investigations into potential gun owners - not just a 30 minute check!

[Bigmack]

58. I dunno what the fuck to do...

In one year, guns murdered 17 people in Finland, 35 in Austria, 39 in England, 60 in Spain, 194 in Germany, 200 in Canada, and 9,484 in the US. If it's not the guns, it's the American people.... we're just crazier than people in other countries. It's not that we don't imprison people... we have the highest incarceration rate in the world. It's not lack of religion... Americans have a much, much higher rate of church attendance and religious adherence than any other developed country. I can't believe that guns can be controlled.. there are about 300 million guns in the US. Even if we had the political will - and permission from the NRA - we couldn't control that many guns.

I have no idea what we can do to stop this madness ....

Gun licenses maybe.... but do you think the rightwing gun nuts will get a license?

How would we find all the guns..?

And let's not even go into the number of kids we kill as "collateral damage" in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and whatever other countries we are currently droning.

Maybe the mass shootings in this country are our bad karma coming back to bite us on the ass.

[Tumbulu]

71. Well we could start with registering them and licensing their use

as these other countries do. And watching Bowling for Columbine this morning sure reinforces that the problem is cultural- the fear and anger of our daily lives....and war mongering as a nation are part of it.

We could find the guns by making the manufacturers of the ammo and weapons liable for illegal use of weapons. Then they will have to find them. We could start with that.

[BlueStreak]

80. Republicans see to have all sorts of ideas how to limit voter registration. Surely ...

we can figure out a way to account for our guns at least as well as we do voters.

If I have to renew my driving license every 4 years, surely the same is not too much to ask of a person who wants to own guns.

After all, there are more gun deaths than motor deaths in many states. Unfortunately, we may have to add Connecticut to that list today.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/gun-deaths-exceed-motor-v_b_1536793.html

[Tumbulu]

105. great article

and makes the points that I have been arguing for days here on DU.

It is time for protection from the gun crazed.

[BlueStreak]

131. It is probably worth noting that a lot of people opposed seat belt laws

and still many people do no use seat belts. That is Darwin at work. But guns are a different matter. Choosing to not use a seat belt is one's own death wish, and I am mostly a libertarian about that. But these guns kill innocent people.

[busterbrown]

84. And the media is a huge part of the “Fear and anger”. Bleeds it leads,, just spews fear into every

facet of our lives.

[DainBramaged]

86. 20 dead kids is certaintly not "if it bleeds it leads"

Holy shit.....

[busterbrown]

148. Come on man......Read what I was responding to before you start attacking!!!!!

The post I was responding to was talking about the violence and hate in our culture..
You think..".that bleeds it leads” is not a huge catalyst to this crap?

[KoKo]

76. Excellent Post...Thanks!

K&R

[Stellar]

87. Well said!!!

here, here!!!

[defacto7]

96. To those who must have guns in your house....

Are you afraid of something? Are you fearful that you will not be able to kill the thing you are frightened of? Or make it go away? Do your guns make you feel safe? Are you afraid you are not powerful enough to protect your property? Do your guns make you feel in control? Are you fearful you may be taken advantage of and look like a fool?

If you do,
...the problem is within you, and you should probably not own guns.

[Skip Intro]

112. Not afraid, just prepared.

Speaking as a soon-to-be gun owner.

Should you be unfortunate enough for someone to break into your home with the intent to harm or kill, you can explain to the armed intruder your opposition to guns and see how that works out. I plan to be able to offer a slightly more substantive defense should the occasion arise at my home.

[defacto7]

120. You are a perfect example of the idea

that you can't defend yourself without a weapon. You think there are people out there who are waiting around to harm or kill you. Statistically that is wrong. You see it in the news, you read the stories, you pick up on the sales routine from the media and you fear. It's fear, not preparedness.

Movie... Bowling for Columbine. Watch it and then talk about preparedness.

As far as your substantive defense, you are substantially more likely to kill yourself, a loved one, someone who is innocent, cause a fatal accident... but most likely cause the intruder to kill you and yours because of your threat to the intruder... and all because in the short run, you may feel as if you are safe having a gun.

[Skip Intro]

123. And you don't know wtf you are talking about.

When it comes to what I think, at least. Or where I live. Or what the crime rate is in this metro area. Or how people have been shot in home invasions in surrounding areas. Or how some home invaders have been shot by armed homeowners.

That's reality.

But by all means, should some event like that befall you, just tell the guy with a gun who is busting your door down to have a seat and watch a movie with you, I'm sure it'll all work out.

[defacto7]

126. and you speak with as much authority

as I did. I live in a metro area, and such has befallen me while I was in South America... and I survived very well. If I had tried to use a gun, I'd be dead. Instead, I just lost some stuff and some cash.

I can see in your writing a lot of anger and fear. That's what I see. You don't have to like it.

And don't be afraid of information, it may save your life sooner than any gun. Watch that movie. If you decide not to see it, I'd imagine you're not interested in proving your own point. If you have a point and you are pinning your life on that point, I'd be damn sure I had all the information I could get.

[Skip Intro]

132. lol

Well, thanks for the advice.

Your assertion that I am writing from fear or anger is further proof that you simply don't know what you are talking about.

Just fyi, as far as BFC, yeah, I've seen it. I've seen most of MM's movies (never saw Sicko). Good movie for the most part, didn't like the way he badgered Heston, but a good movie nonetheless. Doesn't change reality, though.

[defacto7]

149. good luck!

[DainBramaged]

128. They ALL think SOMEONE is out to get them, invade their homes, rob their stuff

Even though they live where EVERYONE owns guns and EVERYONE is as White as the Pilgrims.


Paranoia plain and simple.

[Skip Intro]

135. Damn, what racist bullshit is that?

I lived in North Charleston SC for decades. Whites are actually a minority in that city, although slightly. Very high-crime city, though it has seen violent crime drop some in recent years.

To summarize, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Many people in this area also own generators in case of hurricanes. Doesn't mean they are paranoid. It means they are prepared. Many people look at owning a gun in the same way.

But given the bullshit, now tinged with racism, that you're spouting, I doubt seriously you're interested in the reality of the situation.

[DainBramaged]

136. You've really jumped into the deep end haven't you?

You can stomp your feet and hold your breath till you turn blue, every White person I've EVER known (personally) who had that insatiable love for the gun is PARANOID about the boogie mans breaking down their door and raping their womens and stealing their shitty stuff. Yet I'd like to see them pull lying naked in bed with a weapon at their face as the 'robbers' take their gun from the nightstand and their wallet from the dresser.


Oh BTW here in NJ where I live, we have insurance. If they want my shit, they can have it. For $151 a year it isn't worth worrying about.


If you're that afraid of your neighborhood move, plain and simple.



Goodbye Skippy, you've hit your head at the bottom of the pool.

[Skip Intro]

137. Reality:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&q=%22home+invasion%22&oq=%22home+invasion%22&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j43i400.1138.7566.0.7754.33.11.2.9.0.0.850.3433.3j3j0j2j0j2j1.11.0...0.0...1ac.1.k3L2n1zo164#hl=en&tbo=d&gl=us&tbm=nws&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22home+invasion%22+murder&oq=%22home+invasion%22+murder&gs_l=serp.3...28027.29917.0.30131.9.8.1.0.0.1.1525.2585.0j2j3j8-1.6.0...0.0...1c.1.E8kjojaSAFM&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355325884,d.eWU&fp=94c78ea2dc135362&bpcl=39967673&biw=1024&bih=593

[_ed_]

130. Enjoy the increased risk of death

"Those persons with guns in the home were at greater risk than those without guns in the home of dying from a homicide in the home. They were also at greater risk of dying from a firearm homicide, but risk varied by age and whether the person was living with others at the time of death. The risk of dying from a suicide in the home was greater for males in homes with guns than for males without guns in the home."

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full

[Skip Intro]

133. Tell you what,

You don't want a gun in your home, don't have one. But what I chose to do in that regard is up to me, no one else.

Should you be faced with an armed intruder at 3am, maybe you could convince him to sit and read a long, convoluted research paper that might convince him to leave peacefully without harming you. Personally, I'd handle such a situation a bit differently. To each his own.

As far as links go, try this one:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&q=%22home+invasion%22&oq=%22home+invasion%22&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j43i400.1138.7566.0.7754.33.11.2.9.0.0.850.3433.3j3j0j2j0j2j1.11.0...0.0...1ac.1.k3L2n1zo164#hl=en&tbo=d&gl=us&tbm=nws&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22home+invasion%22+murder&oq=%22home+invasion%22+murder&gs_l=serp.3...28027.29917.0.30131.9.8.1.0.0.1.1525.2585.0j2j3j8-1.6.0...0.0...1c.1.E8kjojaSAFM&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355325884,d.eWU&fp=94c78ea2dc135362&bpcl=39967673&biw=1024&bih=593

[_ed_]

139. Yep, damn the facts

And post some paranoid crap about home invasions. Owning a gun makes you more likely to die violently. Your paranoid action movie fantasies with your gun make you less safe. And make us all less safe.

[Skip Intro]

142. I'm sure the people dead in the stories at that link

wish it were just fantasy. I'm sure their families and loved ones do as well.

You have a right to live your life as you see fit, within the law.

You don't have a right to tell me how to live mine.

Best of luck to you.

[_ed_]

143. Go give your guns a hug

and sleep well that you've chosen a more dangerous life for you and your family based on nothing more than your own paranoid delusions.

[Skip Intro]

144. Sorry that reality doesn't mesh with your bs.

Go preach your faux wisdom to someone else.

I've invested enough time in this pointless exchange with you.

[MotherPetrie]

110. K&R

[robinlynne]

111. 300 million guns?

[triplepoint]

113. Why Were ALL the Guns Registered to the Killer's Mother?

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:50 PM - Edit history (1)

It is tough to fathom.....a grade school schoolteacher/volunteer with an arsenal...secured or not from her soon-to-be murderous son. Time for at least some robust trigger lock technology laws to be put in place?
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Reference Link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmaster_M4_Type_Carbine

[DainBramaged]

114. Maybe she bought them for him, then realized he was nuts?

We will never know for sure.

[revmclaren]

119. 300 million + guns and there are people who want more. Gun hording is a disease and must be stopped

before more innocents lose their lives. Ban or restrict the sale of ammo and all these weapons of death. including the illegal ones, become very costly and useless paperweights!

[Odin2005]

134. I love that pic, Dain! totally true!

[rainlillie]

140. I think in order to find a solution we have to look at a lot of different factors..

There are a lot of folks who are responsible gun-owners. I'm very anti-gun and would never want one in my home. My hubby and I always talk to the parents of our children's friends to find out if they have guns in the home, before letting them sleep over. It doesn't help our side by calling folks who for whatever reason own firearms.. nuts. We need to reach out and try to work with responsible gun owners to come up with solutions that will protect everyone. Gun owners are not evil people.

[DainBramaged]

141. Then you don't trust them for having guns

And growing up, my beautiful daughter was held to the same standard.


Now she is a social worker. She sees the results of the violence constantly. Violent people seem to need weapons, and they strike out at those who would deny them the weapons. Because of their weakness, many die.


I'd love to see the gun lovers go out in boxing gloves when they think they need a gun. That's manly.

[KoKo]

147. K&R...interesting!