People with mental illness 'should get jobs with health insurance and take care of themselves'

[LuckyTheDog]

Somebody actually said that to me today.

Unfuckingbelievable.

[Fumesucker]

1. Sounds like a mental illness n/t

[CBHagman]

2. I would dearly love to speak to that person...

...both from the perspective of someone who screens job applicants and someone who deals with insurance companies.

[Mnemosyne]

3. Were you talking to my sisters? Cold people. nt

[Ilsa]

4. Apparently they are unaware of St. Ronnie Reagan

Defunding and Closing the mental hospitals, or that mentally I'll people might be disabled and unable to work, among other factors.
Geesh.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

5. If we use the excellent

problem solving technique called 'root cause analysis' so popular in some manufacturing concerns, I think we'd find the shooters mental illness as the root cause of todays tragedy.
Treating it is time consuming and expensive. As a nation we deserve better. This issue has to rise to the top of the list. We have no idea how many unexploded time bombs are walking around in our society today. It can only get worse...........

[area51]

12. +1 n/t

[frostfern]

6. That right there....

is what causes people to snap and go on shooting sprees like the one that happened today. There is something very wrong with American culture. Our society causes mental illness in those susceptible to estrangement. We create a unique kind of hell for those who for whatever reason just can't function in our soul crushing society.

[coalition_unwilling]

31. Reader's Digest version: our society is well and truly fucked in the head - n/t

[lpbk2713]

7. I always thought these assholes live in a parallel universe.

Every now and then I hear them say something like this and I know my belief is confirmed.

[eppur_se_muova]

8. Lock this guy in a cell with the naked guy who tried to eat somebody's face.

That should give him some perspective on mental illness.

[DebJ]

23. Amen.

[Zoeisright]

9. If someone had said that to me today

they would be nursing a broken nose tonight.

[DearHeart]

10. Stupid asshats! Most insurance doesn't cover psychiatric needs!

So, yes, everyone is essentially is taking care of themselves" or their GP is prescribing psychiatric drugs without the proper training and/or knowledge needed to prescribe correctly, and therein lies the damn problem!

[Honeycombe8]

13. The ACA is changing that. Ins. policies will be required to provide some sort of

mental health services. At least that's what I read.

[DearHeart]

16. That'll be great...once it takes effect!

[Honeycombe8]

17. Yes...I'm hanging on until the ACA is fully implemented. I'm older and am so afraid

I'll lose my job and have to spend my life savings on insurance. Maybe the ACA won't help me much, but it's something. And I may need to go to a therapist, if that happens.

Is your pseudonym from the movie/song Dear Heart?

[DearHeart]

18. Yes my name if from the movie/song Dear Heart...one of my favorites!

I am out of work right now and COBRA will run out on Jan 2nd. Don't know what I'm going to do. Can't find anything and only had 1 interview; so horrible out here still!

I hope that you don't have any problems with your job!! I'm hoping the ACA will help a lot of people, like you said, it's something...better than nothing!

[Honeycombe8]

19. I love that movie. I recorded it to DVD from TCM. As for COBRA...

COBRA is so expensive. You can probably find another policy on yur own for less. www.healthcare.gov.

People say it's important not to let your ins. lapse and to move from one policy into another with no break in coverage. Otherwise, it's harder to get coverage.

[DearHeart]

25. I also recorded it to DVD from TCM, never seen it for sale anywhere on DVD.

Thanks for the info. I'm going to try and get my insurance company to sign me up to at least a short term policy...but then again, they'll probably say I have a pre-existing condition. Wish that took effect with the ACA in 2013 instead of 2014. I hope they'll do it!!

[Honeycombe8]

26. No, Dear Heart is not on DVD. And the only VHS you can get is used.

It is not duplicated or sold any longer. I investigated this in some old movie forums. It seems the company that made the movie went out of business or something, and whoever has the rights, if anyone, cannot duplicate it or sell it because of some reason that I forget.

It also doesn't come on TCM very often. So I consider myself lucky that I ran across it in time to record it. It's like gold to me.

[DearHeart]

34. I'm so glad that we both got this movie!!

I never understood why it wasn't released on DVD. So many people love this movie and I always have people asking me if my "name" is for the movie! I'm going to check into the rights and who owns the rights, just cuz I'm curious as to why they cannot duplicate or sell.

Thank God for TCM!

[DebJ]

24. We will be paying $18000 a year for health insurance beginning this March for two years

My husband's chronic kidney disease has advanced and so he has to retire at age 63,
two years before Medicare (unless he goes on dialysis; which we are working as hard
as we can to delay/prevent), so we have to go Cobra, and that is
the annual cost.....until September, when I just pray to God that it doesn't go up.

It's MORE than a house payment.

Plus retiring early costs us $500 a month in social security benefits and $500 a month
in lost pension.

Lose $1000 a month in income, pay $1500 more in expenses. Great deal!

[Skittles]

11. tell me they were not on DU

please

[fadedrose]

14. OP thread title sounds like beginning of a joke that needs a punch line...nt

[dawg]

15. That's the cancer this country suffers from.

I can understand why the plutocrats push this kind of thinking. I am at a loss to understand why so many working class people fall for it.

[white_wolf]

20. Hell, I can't find a job.

It's got to be even harder if you have a mental illness. Do these people think before they speak?

[Quantess]

21. Gross. Can you do me a favor, and

let them know that I think they are a gross excuse for a human being?

[Denninmi]

22. I have bipolar II syndrome, a full time job, and pay for my BCBSM coverage out of pocket.

Geesh, the teabaggers and freepers need to get a life.

I went to work some evenings AFTER spending the day at the psych ward day program. Because the world moves along no matter what, and there were deadlines to meet. Pleadings and filings to draft, tax returns and IRS collections cases that needed attention, several estate plans to draft, a couple of deeds.

Was it easy, no, especially in light of the fact I had been locking myself in my office a few weeks prior out of extreme anxiety.

Got done at the psych ward on Friday pm, was back to work Monday regular schedule.

Here's an irony, my taxes probably pay for the Medicare, Medicaid, and SSI/SSDI some of these people get while they complain about "freeloaders".

So, to those with the attitude of "get a job" I say bite me. I've got one, what's your excuse?

[napoleon_in_rags]

27. You rock.

A lot of people don't know that people who suffer from mental illness can be, and often are, totally independent self sustaining members of society. The problem is, for a lot of folks its skating on thin ice: If the anxiety gets so bad you lose your job before you get treatment, than you can't get treatment and its a downward spiral from there. I'm saying 'you rock' because it sounds like you stepped over all of that. I've been in the same boat and I know how hard it is to do that.

[Denninmi]

32. It was like walking a minefield covered in broken glass and cobras.

It was damned hard, and I got through it because luck was on my side at a couple of critical junctures.

Only to be told I'm so much dangerous sub-human trash who should be locked away for the good of society, because of one man's actions and one meme from the gun lobby.

Because, you know, the fact that this country is armed to the teeth isn't the problem, it's all of us crazy folks running around that are the real problem.

I'm no one's second class citizen.

Anyone who thinks I am can go fuck off.

[napoleon_in_rags]

35. I have the same mental health issue as you, and I'm arguing the mental health angle.

I've suffered from the anxiety disorders, so I've been on Citralopram and the rest. But I'm also a mental health worker, and that means in addition to folks like you and me, or the poor depressive folks, or so many other non-violent folks with some minor mind issues, I deal with people who are schizophrenics, violent psychotics, etc. In a sense these people are like you and me, but their disorder takes them to far scarier places, places where they will lash out and attack the demons around them, without seeing that those demons are actually people. The truth is that these are good hearted people, but without proper supports they can pose a threat. Unfortunately we have been cutting those supports for some time.

When I went to a counselor for my anxiety disorder, she taught me this exercise where I find a place in my body that doesn't have anxiety, and move my consciousness there. (for me usually my thigh for some reason) Its a cool exercise to try next time you feel anxiety, if you haven't heard of it. But as for the mental health aspect of this debate, DC can no longer afford to listen to blowhards when Phd experts are available, and they know that. And the experts know what I know; the particular mental illnesses this debate is about - and guess what: its not about you. so relax, listen to some music and move you're consciousness to a peace place within you. You're not trash.

[Denninmi]

36. Thanks. I find it rather hard to chill about this.

I tend to take it personally when random strangers tell me I should be wearing a scarlet letter and put on a registry. Because I take 300 mgs of lamictal daily? If someone can tell me my other crimes, I would like to know, because I sure don't remember committing any.

So, we're going to move to the type of society that reduces or eliminates rights and freedoms, or worse, not because of what a person does, but who they are? Like Germany, or Rwanda, or Afghanistan under the Taliban?

Music. Chill. I'll try.

[napoleon_in_rags]

41. Here's the thing you need to know about better supports for mentally ill:

They would reduce crime.

Why? Because first and foremost they would result in people with mental illness being the victims of less crimes.

That's the thing you need to understand about what I'm advocating: Its not involuntary incarceration in mental institution, its voluntary trade - you agree to certain guidelines in order to receive supports. You get a system where they can talk to counselors, etc.

So lets look at you in relation to what I'm advocating. First of all, you never lost your job so you never needed desperate support, so you don't even apply. But suppose you did. You lose your job, your feeling desperate, so you apply for the supports. You agree to hand in your weapons, stop consuming drugs and alcohol, and in turn you receive some assistance with living and meds, and counselor. You work with a job counselor, get another job so you no longer need financial supports. At this point almost no guideline restraints apply to you. You can drink, and so forth. You see a counselor for the next few months, and then you're out, back on your feet, no stigma, no more guidelines because you're independent.

Is that so scary?

[Denninmi]

43. I'm having a great deal of trouble envisioning the "no stigma" part, first and foremost.

In this society, I think it's wishful thinking at best. In a perfect world, yes, but based on the ugliness I've seen right here on DU the past few days it makes me think it's not likely to happen.

Since you're the mental health professional, I'll demure to your judgement, but I do question why access to health care has to come with "strings attached"? It seems to me that people have to want to do something, forcing them to do something against their will never seem to work long-term in my experience.

[napoleon_in_rags]

44. No, you're totally right.

"forcing them to do something against their will never seem to work long-term in my experience."

The number one driving all people lash out (esp. mentally ill) is the feeling of being unheard, the feeling of being totally powerless. That's why the deal, the trade is so important.

Its bizarre when you first see this work. I remember seeing a situation on video where a mentally ill guy was waving a knife, police were standing back with guns drawn. (really a seemingly rational response) but then a little female cop with mental health training walked up with no gun, smiled, and made a deal with him to hand over the knife, for something like a cookie. The guy felt empowered because he had the power to make or not make a deal, gave her the knife and took the cookie.

The cop was bold, and I don't recommend that as a policy for police, but it shows the key psychological technique for de-escalation: Make people feel heard, give people a sense of empowerment over their own lives.

In my opinion, the way to do mental health outreach is to offer people protection and support. And to make them understand that they have to trade some things for that protection and support, a choice they make. And then its key that they deliver, too. I'll never forget one woman I saw, who was clearly mentally ill, standing in her front yard, yelling at me as I passed. She had no supports, just a "normal" person. Unfortunately for her, she was also very attractive. I thought I saw a car circling her house, and could just imagine the predators sneaking around thinking "nobody will be believe her if she tells, she's crazy." I tried to start a conversation but couldn't, so there was nothing I could do, I moved on, knowing the police were aware now. What's totally unacceptable to me is the idea of somebody like that seeking support, only to get "loon: do not sell weapons to" stamped on her ID, and being pushed back out on the streets to be raped, totally unable to defend herself. So protection and supports means overt protection and supports. Even common sense things like issuing cell phones with a support person to talk to could make a difference in a dangerous situation.

Which brings us to the last thing, stigma. When somebody sees somebody getting treated, the idea should be that here is a person getting supports, like a senior, guy in wheelchair, or kid. The corresponding attitude should be the same. When a person no longer needs supports, the idea should be like somebody who had an accident, needed crutches for awhile, but no longer does. Its important for people receiving supports, like any disabled person, to have hope that they can at some point overcome their disability.

Okay, sorry to make you the target of a long, coffee fuel rant, but I feel like I got all the ranting off my chest. No more DU for me for awhile! DU addition is one of my own issues, I have to manage it carefully!

Peace

[HereSince1628]

38. My problem is the reach is likely to be much greater than the problem.

People with the delusional disorders you seem to refer to, whose aggression is reactive and immediate, seem unlikely to plan and implement a mass murder.

Yet, the available evidence about aggressive violence targeted at others by the mentally ill suggests much of it, maybe the largest fraction of it, is mostly about violence against caregivers and co-habitators. The sort of thing that places clinicians and corrections officers in a path to see it.

I really have doubts about lawmakers and their 20-something clerks being able to really understand what they read. Considering pressure that will be applied from Homeland Security, the FBI, and the constabulary, I don't trust them to bother with differentiating types of hostility with respect to reactivity, targeting etc..

I can't imagine that requiring reporting of mental conditions would be limited to the conditions most linked to planned, targeted aggression in public places.

In the interest of 'safety' and with 'an excess of caution' any net they create is going to be very large.

It's almost certain to include requirements for reporting all the illnesses most associated with criminal offenses.

It seems likely to me that it would include a wide array of affective disorders, and contrary to your opinion, would include bipolar disorder and other conditions that because they sometimes involve hostility (as opposed to acts of aggression) may have potential for violence. Of course it would include a handful of what have been considered Cluster A and B personality types. Indeed antisocial personality would seem of great interest to them to have as reportable.

And, ISTM, as they will want to be on the safe side there would likely to be a catch-all requirement that if a clinician 'feels'/judges a person represents a danger to others they are obligated under penalty of law to enter it into the system.

As a back up to catch things that go unreported there would probably be a pharmacy database which would be required to report purchases of controlled chemicals associated with treatments of some mental illnesses. Which in an excess of caution would probably include intoxicants and precursors of commonly abused substances since substance abuse has the highest correlation with aggressive violence toward others out in society.

I too would like to see gun violence reduced in America. But the best predictor of violence is previous acts of violence NOT a diagnosis with a mental illness. Targeting everyone labelled with one or more 'reportable' mental illnesses will sweep up a lot of people who we know from actuarial studies won't be violent.

What could go wrong?

Perhaps you've seen the way that police and security treat people that they suspect could be violent? It often isn't pretty. Imagine what could follow a check for outstanding warrants during a minor traffic stop that brings back an alert that the car is registered to a 'potentially violent' mental patient.

I have broad reservations about how this gets into surrendering rights to more than gun possession...what happens to rights to privacy, protection from prior restraint, and government targeting non-offenders as part of a 'class' that actuarially includes a fraction of offenders.

I have reservations about the potential social outcomes about this information spreading to 'other parties with valid interests'. And once society decides mental illness is a public concern there WILL be pressure to expand access to this data.

Imagine the damage that could befall a whole lot of people who have never done anything but be afflicted by a mental illness if this sort of information were made available to employers, financiers, or landlords?

[napoleon_in_rags]

39. It could go that way, but it just doesn't have to be like that.

Last edited Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:05 PM - Edit history (1)

What I envision is a system where family members of an individual can take that individual in, and have the individual provided supports in terms of living, meds help with finding employment, etc. Once the individual gets on his or her feet, and doesn't need the program, than the status of the individual goes to being exactly the same as every other member of society. If they need to go back in, they go back in.

You're right about the majority of people with mental illnesses, even the more severe ones, as not being dangerous. And many, like the many Americans who go to work every day but take some med sometimes for something, like this post, as basically being normal. But from the reports I've heard on Lanza so far, this guy was too messed up to hold down a job, or even socially interact. To me that should have been a sign that he should have been getting some kind of help.

Edit: Phamacy database? Really? God I hope they wouldn't be that dumb. "Don't take the meds, or THEY will know, and start to track you."

The best kind of loss prevention in stores is simply good customer service. Similarly, I believe the best way to prevent mentally ill violence is simply compassionate involvement. I can tell you there would be a big reduction in crime right off the bat. How? Mentally ill would be victims of less crimes. That's how. And if somebody has big problems, if they need something like involuntary incarceration, somebody would there to see it.

[coalition_unwilling]

28. Mean-sprited though this will sound, I hope severe mental illness visits

that person's family soon.

That's the only language assholes and douchenozzles understand.

[AZ Progressive]

29. Why do we have to share this country with idiots like this?

I just can't believe the assholery and stupidity of so many people in this country, damnit.

[coalition_unwilling]

30. I wonder if that person knows one of my former bosses who said those who

stayed behind during Katrina "deserved" what happened because they refused to leave.

I don't like to use the 'B*' word for women generally speaking but on this occasion I was sorely tempted. I actually walked out on the job without giving notice for related reasons a couple days later.

[lbrtbell]

33. People like that are why we have mass shootings - n/t

[librechik]

37. Heh--some of them already have jobs--as bosses

and god knows how they got in those positions cough nepotism cough because it is very DIFFICULT to get hired if you are mentally ill.

Of course some jobs make you mentally ill--but that's another story!

[etherealtruth]

40. You can't fix stupid

[zappaman]

42. wtf?