I thought I was done weeping for the night...Then I read this

[sheshe2]

The picture of the empty swing was hard enough to take. Then there are the quotes from the babies. Heartbreaking!


“I just want Christmas. I don’t want to die, I just want to have Christmas.”

12/14/2012 11:36pm by John Aravosis





Amazing, horrifying, story from John Christoffersen and Jocelyn Noveck of AP about the mass murder of twenty five-to-ten-year-olds at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut. Read the entire thing.

A first-grade teacher barricaded herself into a bathroom with 15 students. This is first grade, so we’re probably talking 5 and 6 year olds:


“I said, ‘There are bad guys out there now. We need to wait for the good guys,’” she told ABC News.

“The kids were being so good,” she said. “They asked, ‘Can we go see if anyone is out there?’ ‘I just want Christmas. I don’t want to die, I just want to have Christmas.’ I said, ‘You’re going to have Christmas and Hanukkah.’”

One student claimed to know karate. “It’s OK. I’ll lead the way out,” the student said.

Then this:
[url=http://postimage.org/][img][/img][/url]
[url=http://postimage.org/]upload pics[/url]



Swing set by Shutterstock

“They told a little boy it was his sister who passed on,” Weiss said. “The boy’s response was, ‘I’m not going to have anyone to play with.’”

Read this story from the NYT as well.


“Some people,” a little girl said later, searching for words, “they got a stomachache.”

Enough. I’m tired of the gun nuts. I’m tired of the politicians, and political parties, who either whore for them, or are mortally afraid of them. And I’m tired of gun control advocates who don’t seem have the stomach for a real fight.

It’s over. Enough talk about an assault weapons ban that nobody has the backbone to even bring up. It’s time we ended our national love affair with guns, violence and death. The time for compromise, which was really only serial capitulation, is over. It’s time to ban guns once and for all.

Edit to add link.
http://americablog.com/2012/12/i-just-want-christmas-i-dont-want-to-die-i-just-want-to-have-christmas.html

[MrSlayer]

1. It's just impossible to ban guns.

Literally impossible. We're stuck with this bullshit, it's never going to end.

[Scootaloo]

2. Everything is impossible if you're too apathetic to try.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

28. THIS-^- n/t

[Care Acutely]

38. I will support every incrmental change until we get to a ban.

Fuck the 2nd colonial era relic of an amendment.

[MrSlayer]

57. Improbable then.

I just cannot see how a total gun ban can ever happen. There are more guns than people. The horse left the barn such a long time ago that the barn has been turned into a Chick-Fil-A.

[Scootaloo]

93. And the man in your avatar had no idea slavery would end

Would have likely considered it an impossible prospect.

if you can't see how it would work, then maybe you're looking at it wrong.

[MrSlayer]

96. Perhaps I am.

All I see is congress. There's no way you're going to get a ban through congress. What does that leave as an avenue? The courts? Fat chance there. Executive Order? Is that even legal? Revolution?

You tell me.

The slavery issue isn't at all the same by the way.

[MrSlayer]

90. It's a pipe dream.

There will never be enough votes in Congress to ban guns. Most people don't want them banned no matter what happens.

It's not apathy, it's looking at the situation realistically.

[uponit7771]

3. i sKrongly disagree with this statement

[MrSlayer]

60. That's your prerogative.

Your being wrong doesn't make it less true.

[MrSlayer]

91. Disagree all you want.

And more power to you. But nothing is going to happen toward a gun ban. If it isn't impossible it's extremely unlikely. Like you have a better chance of hitting the lottery ten times than a ban occurring.

[TheDebbieDee]

5. We're.. not Stuck with this bullshit. Europe got rid of their guns. We can get rid of ours.

At least we can try before we lay down and say it can't be done.................

[sheshe2]

9. I agree...we can't just roll over and put a pillow over our heads.

You realize this is the Presidents second "Sandy" tragedy in 40 days. This one is Sandy Hook.

Issues of Climate Change came to the forefront after Sandy...as are guns after Sandy Hook.
I believe this President will try to push through legislation. WE all need to be aggressive in our response.

We need to be heard!

Thanks DebbieDee for your post!

[JDPriestly]

46. Europe got rid of its guns?

[Quantess]

61. No, they didn't get rid of guns!

Europe just has a far better handle on the gun situation.

[TheDebbieDee]

65. Many countries in Europe did institute some form of gun control that drastically reduced the number

of deaths there over the decades. Some countries still allow citizens to have hunting guns and the like. But only terrorists and police are possession of handguns and assault weapons..............

[Quantess]

66. I found this really quickly when I googled: firearms deaths country

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

This one tells the story, because it is weighted by population:
http://www.allcountries.org/gun_deaths_by_country.html

[derby378]

71. Ever hear of Switzerland? Poland? The Czech Republic?

Go ahead. Research them if you like. I'll wait.

[Quantess]

72. If anyone ever tries that shit again,

I hope someone smacks that DUer down, instantly. With links and with facts.

[TheDebbieDee]

73. Research them for what? What's your point? Go ahead and make it!

Are YOU still waiting?

[Quantess]

74. What is YOUR point, evasive one?

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:37 PM - Edit history (2)

Edit to add: you can direct your conversation to me, if you'd like.
(damned typos!)

[TheDebbieDee]

81. First off, I wasn't talking to you. It's nice to post links to back up what you say,

but it would help a lot of yo gave some clue as to what the links were for.

Long story short, I don't care what you or any other gun owner wants or what you rights are. Maybe it's time your rights were amended.

[Quantess]

84. You are evasive about what your point is.

I gave links already. Those links showing that gun violence per capita is much higher in the USA than it is in europe.

Are you confused or something?
Or am I?

[TheDebbieDee]

98. Yes, you are confused. And you do have reading problems. I stated quite clearly in my first post

That we are not stuck in this shit. There are things we CAN do and the worst thing we can do is NOTHING.

You came back with a post with links and somebody else came back with a post about Switzerland, Poland and some other place and then you came back with a post about me being evasive. I don't know what you are talking about any more but I'm done talking to you!

[MrSlayer]

89. Watch and see what happens.

A big fat nothing is going to happen. Not a single goddamn thing will change. This country is never going to give up the guns, never. I'm sorry but that's the way it is.

There isn't a single Republican or rural Democrat that would ever vote for it. It's electoral suicide.

[JimDandy]

92. No. This was a game changer.

And there are probably MILLIONS more Americans like me who, before yesterday, never really formed an opinion or prioritized guns on their list of issues. There will be laws passed to start changing the equation from gun protection to life protection. It is too important not to.

[MrSlayer]

95. I hope you're right.

But I don't see it happening. By next week this will have blown over and the next shiny object will be fascinating the sheep.

[JimDandy]

100. Won't blow over. Feinstein is bringing a bill to the Senate;

Last edited Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:57 PM - Edit history (1)

family and friends who are pro-gun (several NRA members) are advocating for a variety of gun controls ideas; neighbors I've never interacted with before are stopping to converse about this Slaughter of Innocents and how sick they are of the continued mass murders-and they didn't do that with the Auroa theatre shooting that took place in our own back yards 5 months ago; and leaders in my state are now saying that there will almost surely be a gun control bill put forward this next legislative session.

How sad it took the deaths of all these babies to bring disparate parties I know together in the common cause of stricter gun regulations.

As I said, huge game changer.

[Bonobo]

7. Nonsense.

There is plenty of firepower in the US police forces to take away guns if they had the will.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. Just a quick calculation...

The police make up 0.0052% of the population. (Well, they did in 2005, consider budget cuts, and thank the republicans, that number is almost certainly smaller today)

Some 80 million Americans have firearms. At least.
Let's say 1% of those people didn't really like the idea.

You'd run out of police.

You would have to somehow get the 99% willing to turn them in, to first force the 1% that would resist, to hand them over.

I don't advocate either scenario, in fact, they both sound like the start of a war. But I think the idea that the police have sufficient gear is highly questionable, just on the manpower score alone.

[Bonobo]

35. You're suggesting that 1 out of every 100 handgun owners would kill policemen

instead of following the laws and turning over their guns?

If that's true, all the more reason to crack down on them.

But in reality, a homeowner would not resist an armed SWAT team and I think you know that. The pct of resisters would be more likely to be .01 percent or less.

In any case, do we determine what the laws are based on what criminals would or would not accept? No, we don't.

[AtheistCrusader]

42. Have you seen their rhetoric?

Also, 'there' or not, they could be enabled by your suggestion. What you suggested is explicitly unconstitutional.

These are people that booed the golden rule at one of their primary debates.

[Bonobo]

55. That's the thing. It is NOT explicitly unconstitutional.

It is open to debate and even if unconstitutional (which I don't believe), the constitution can be changed.

[AtheistCrusader]

94. I'm not referring to the 2nd Amendment.

I'm referring to Article 1, section 9, clause 3, and Article 1, section 10, clause 1.

Even if you could amend the constitution around the 2nd (unlikely), modifying THAT section to allow the prohibition of currently legal and in circulation firearms would open all sorts of Pandora's boxes entirely unrelated to firearms regulation.

[MrSlayer]

58. No way.

Barring an "According to Hoyle" miracle, guns just aren't going to disappear.

Are you suggesting there be a house to house search for guns across the country? It's just really, really unlikely.

[Major Nikon]

18. There's no need to ban guns

Guns that are well suited to hunting game don't have to be guns that are well suited to efficiently killing people.

[Zoeisright]

24. Completely wrong.

If YOUR child was one of those victims, I doubt you'd have such a piss-poor attitude.

[MrSlayer]

59. I would never want that to happen to my worst enemy.

But that doesn't change the fact that banning all guns is as improbable as The Force working for me when I try to summon a beer.

[MrSlayer]

88. If it was my child it still wouldn't make me think we could ban guns.

I want them banned and this was a horrible tragedy but a ban is not going to happen. It simply will not be done. You watch, nothing is going to happen. The Congresspeopke don't give a fuck what the parents of any of the victims say. Not a single one of them can make or break your elected career. The NRA can and that's the bottom line.

[baldguy]

63. "It's just impossible to end slavery."

[atreides1]

76. And legal slavery was ended

Unfortunately we still have human trafficking for the purpose of enslaving people illegally, so it is impossble to end slavery!

As long as something can provide a profit you'll never be able to end it or ban it!

[MrSlayer]

87. Completely different thing.

They didn't eliminate slavery by killing all the slaves.

There are just too many guns out in the country to round them up and eliminate them. It is as near impossible as anything can be. You'll never get them all and there is never going to be a ban, not in our lifetime or our grandchildren's. It's crazy to think there will be. There is zero inclination in Congress to do so.

[baldguy]

97. No, they're not.

They're both "rights" supported by the Founders and written into the Constitution that are morally contemptuous and have harmed an enormous number of people.

Slavery was never really needed for the agrarian economy of the 18th & 19th century to function, and as soon as we started to industrialize we found the political will to end it.

Gus don't offer security - THEY NEVER HAVE - they make gun owners, and everyone else, LESS secure. The community of gun owners have proven they are incapable of keeping weapons from people who would kill. Getting rid of the guns is the only right & reasonable solution to keep us safe, secure & free.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

67. There is always a market for illegal guns

trying to catch those who supply them is difficult.

[Tansy_Gold]

77. Dear goddess but I hate this "impossible" shit

I hate the hand wringing and the weeping and the lamentations that precede the abject surrender. "There's nothing we can do!"

[MrSlayer]

86. Well, convince me otherwise.

Congress will not lift a finger in the direction of even controlling guns, let alone banning them. It's a pipe dream. I'm truly sorry to piss on the gun banning party because I agree with the idea but it just isn't going to happen.

We really can't do anything about it.

[Tansy_Gold]

99. Read my sig line

At least fucking try.

It may not be possible to eliminate all guns everywhere, but let's at least try getting rid of assault weapons. Let's start by banning the manufacture of them here and the importation of them.

Let's close some of the loopholes on gun sales.

Let's fucking stand up to the fucking NRA and defend the bans on handguns in schools and churches and bars. Stand up for the communities that enact laws to limit gun ownership.

Let's try something. Let's not fucking give up.

And at least let's keep talking. Not just here but to friends and neighbors and strangers in the coffee shops. Let's put pressure to get the dialogue opened in the media.

One of the most effective weapons (pun intended) the NRA has is the propaganda machine. Let's shut that down. Or at least try.

[llmart]

82. Well, there's a lovely attitude for you.

Guess we just ought to give up trying. Let the little children die in vain.

Responses like this are not helpful at all. Look up the word "apathetic".

[MrSlayer]

85. Sorry you don't like the facts.

But absolutely nothing meaningful will be done legislatively and there is just no way to ban guns, none. That horse left the barn a long, long time ago.

I'm sorry.

[Pholus]

4. Damn it! I'm crying too now.

I can't sleep tonight and now I read those quotes hearing my own childrens' voices. The childish realization of what a permanent adult situation they faced.

[Edited out one of the most unkind things I've ever said -- but I do not regret thinking it]

[sheshe2]

6. I know.

My great nephew and niece are 6 and 4. When I read the quotes and saw the eerily black and white photo of the swings...I felt that someone had hit me with great force in the stomach.

I still cannot get my breath back. I cannot stop crying!

[mick063]

8. We could land on the moon.

We could abolish slavery

We could allow women to vote.

We could win the cold war.

We could eliminate historic disease.


We can ban guns. We must ban guns.

After a reasonable grace period to allow folks to give up their guns, I would readily accept swapping every marijuana related convict for a gun owner. A more than equitable trade.

[secondwind]

10. 310 million Americans, and 280 million guns. HOW DO WE GET RID OF THEM?

[sheshe2]

12. We start here...Then we keep moving forward!

A petition calling on President Barack Obama to push for new gun control laws in the aftermath of the mass shooting at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn., has cleared the 25,000-signature threshold required to obtain a formal White House response.

The measure, filed in response to Friday's massacre, urges Obama to "immediately address the issue of gun control through the introduction of legislation in Congress."

"The goal of this petition is to force the Obama Administration to produce legislation that limits access to guns," it says. "While a national dialogue is critical, laws are the only means in which we can reduce the number of people murdered in gun related deaths."

[rDigital]

13. Not going to happen. Ever. nt

[sheshe2]

19. They said we would never have an African American President either.

From Wikapedia...
In the United Kingdom firearms are tightly controlled by laws which have commanded widespread public support, although some shooting organisations have argued that the law is too tight. The United Kingdom has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world with 0.22 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants compared to the United States' 3.0 and for Germany's 0.2.[1]

With the exception of Northern Ireland, most police officers in the United Kingdom do not routinely carry firearms. [2][3] About 7,000 police officers have received firearms training [3][4][4]. Police weaponry includes semi-automatic carbines, pistols and the Heckler & Koch MP5SF, and Glock 17. [5]

[rDigital]

20. Those countries didn't have a 2nd Amendment. nt

[rhett o rick]

22. The 2nd Amendment isnt free from interpretation. Most of the Constitution has been interpreted and

some has been interpreted more than once. It's time to interpret the 2nd Amendment to say that individual possession of guns isnt a right.

[sheshe2]

27. Thank you Rhett!

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. And the second amendment was about well organized militias

Like the Guard, not civilians running willy nilly with guns.

Back then those few gun owners were freemen, land owners, and went to drill.

So sorry, if I say that but the 2a was atrociously interpreted in Heller.

You want military grade guns? Join the guard b

[rDigital]

41. Don't have to. The USSC already affirmed the individual RKBA. nt

[JDPriestly]

47. I think we should license people to own guns PROVIDED that they agree to volunteer

for National Guard (militia) duty each year that they apply for their license.

In other words, in exchange for a license to own a gun, people should be required to volunteer several weeks of their time for the National Guard in their state.

In California, that would mean we would have people to call on in case of emergencies like fires or earthquakes. It would also mean that people who were licensed to own guns had to be capable of getting along with other people during their Guard service. The leadership of the Guard could weed out of the Guard and out of those qualified for gun ownership, those without the mental stability own guns.

A few unbalanced people would slip through, but we would have much less strange gun violence. At the same time, those who are really serious about having guns for hunting or even for protecting their rights could own guns.

[adieu]

21. One gun at a time, one bullet at a time

There's no need to get rid of them. There's a need to control them in a real, significant manner. That means: no guns in a house (or a gun in a house, with a max of 6 rounds), background checks, repeated training and testing, new technology such as biometric (hand print) unlocking of guns, no semi-automatics or fully automatics stored anywhere but at gun ranges. (I don't see any use for semi-automatics other than the entertainment value of blasting off 10 rounds in a few seconds, so the only place where that can happen is at a gun range.) Oh, and tax ammunition at 100% of the cost of the ammunition.

Those nuts who think the government (ours or some others) is out to get them, well, they will have to bend a bit. We will make "well-regulated" militia to mean the ability to run a 6-minute mile, 40 continuous pushups, and 95% accuracy at shooting ranges, tested every 6 months. And then, your guns are still stored at a local armory.

[sheshe2]

26. Excellent answer Adieu!

I like it.

We will make "well-regulated" militia to mean the ability to run a 6-minute mile, 40 continuous pushups, and 95% accuracy at shooting ranges, tested every 6 months. And then, your guns are still stored at a local armory.

Merci mon Ami!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

30. i like your thinking.

This is what I'd like to see proposed.

[Tumbulu]

31. Yes, well regulated!!!! nt

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

45. You don't seem to understand. There are millions of Americans who are madly in love with guns.

And I do mean madly. Google gun porn. It's a fetish, and they would rather kill a thousand people than to live in a world where they can't fondle cold, hard, deadly steel.

I'm inclined to agree with your plan, but then I don't lust after Glocks and Uzis.

[adieu]

49. So sorry...

If you can't demonstrate competence to use it, then you can't own it in your own home. Tough noogies.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

53. I'm guessing plenty of the gun humpers can demonstrate that competence and would be happy to do so.

I think your idea of the 100% tax on ammo is awesome, too.

But, again, when you have people who, even today, can't hold their tongues a respectable few hours before they start with the "Let's force teachers to carry," crap, I just don't see anything close to your ideas ever becoming law in the good ole USA! USA! USA!

I'd love to be proven wrong.

[jeff47]

69. That's fine. Our police are plenty militarized to deal with them. (nt)

[deek]

75. Reasonable solution n/t

.

[liberal_at_heart]

78. very well thought out plan. I like it.

[llmart]

83. Terrific!

I dare say a lot of the old, white, fat men in the NRA can't even get up off their Barcalounger let alone do a pushup.

[Zoeisright]

25. One at a time.

What's the matter with you people?

[thebard77]

11. I understand the yearning but its not going to happen.

There are 2 ways guns will be banned. 38 states must vote to repeal the 2nd amendment. Not even considering that most of the red states will never go for it, I can think of a few blue states that have their fair share of hunters... Minnesota, Maine, New Hampshire, etc etc. This isn't the presidential election, California does count more than Wyoming.
-
The other way is for a revolution to over throw the government and get rid of the constitution.

I think both are equally quite unlikely to happen. The most we can hope for is an assault weapons ban and increased legislation to make guns more difficult to purchase. Anyway, this is as much a culture issue as a gun availability issue. We live in a culture of violence and until that is addressed, we will continue to have more of the same whether its pipe bombs, guns, knives, etc etc. The change needs to start in the home and unfortunately we have too many fucking nimrods raising their kids to be nimrods.

[rDigital]

15. Not going to happen. The house is controlled by republicans. nt

[sheshe2]

36. I disagree.

The republicans are in free fall right now, especially in Congress.

They hate women, want to gut medicare, gut social security, and continue with tax cuts for the 1%.

Not only do polls have them down to their lowest of a low.The majority in the polls, which include republicans disagree with the GOP congress.

So now they are going to advocate the slaughter of our babies over gun rights? I truly do not believe that the American public will stand for that .Not now. Not after this.

If they do then I will have lost all faith in our Humanity. We will have lost our very soul!

[rDigital]

44. Not going to happen. Ever. nt

[sheshe2]

50. It can and I so Vehemently hope it will.

We need to make a start. We need to begin.

I for one will not quietly accept the slaughter of our babies. That is who died today...he targeted our babies!

[rDigital]

52. That isn't the answer and it isn't possible. Mental Health is the issue. nt

[jeff47]

70. One doesn't have to repeal the 2nd amendment in order to remove most guns

2nd amendment absolutists such as yourself seem to forget the "well-regulated militia" clause.

So we don't need to ban guns. We can increase the "militia" requirements. Such as requiring a lot more training, mental health evaluations, much more stringent storage requirements, and so on.

People would still be able to own guns. They just couldn't keep a 9mm under their pillow to defend themselves against their personal demons.

[arthritisR_US]

14. Men with teeny weenies must have their guns. So

controlling assault weapons will be extremely difficult, not impossible. How do they get over the hurdle of their teeny weenies

[JDPriestly]

48. Perhaps we should, from now on, refer to the Gungeon as the teeny weeny penis forum.

TWPF.

[arthritisR_US]

64. I love that idea! Call it what it is

[mahina]

16. Multi channel approach needed now. Campaign finance reform NOW. Mental health parity NOW.

Bullet control now. And work to take control back from the lobbyists including the NRA. Now.

[liberal_at_heart]

79. I'm seeing some good ideas on this board

This is the kind of real planned out action we need. Just saying let's get rid of all the guns is too vague and would not accomplish much, but if we come up with a systematic detailed plan we could make a real impact.

[WiffenPoof]

17. If By Chance, Guns Could Be...

...eliminated as a result of this tragedy, nothing could be a greater tribute to the children lost. If not, nothing could be a greater insult.

Paige

[awoke_in_2003]

29. "I'm not going to have anyone to play with"...

That breaks my heart. I have a 2 1/2 year old grandson who worships the ground his 10 year old sister walks on. I cannot begin to explain how he lights up when he sees her. This shit has to stop.

[TDale313]

37. That broke my heart, too.

And yes, this shit needs to stop now.

[awoke_in_2003]

43. I am a big guy...

who likes to think himself a hard ass. I have been choking back the tears all day. I told my wife about the boy who said he didn't have anyone to play with and lost it. It is just way too close to home.

[sheshe2]

39. One student claimed to know karate. “It’s OK. I’ll lead the way out,” the student said.

And our little Ninja. Such a brave little baby! It breaks my heart!

I have a great nephew and niece 6 and 4. Dear God this has just been devastating to us all.

Thank you Awoke.

[awoke_in_2003]

40. That one, too...

our babies should not have to be subjected to this shit.

[GreenEyedLefty]

80. I didn't cry until I read that line.

[Whovian]

32. God, that broke my heart. n/t

[BillyJack]

34. Yeah, we have a national love of violence alright....

our love of american football and the excessive expense spent on the US military are some examples.

[smirkymonkey]

54. +1000

When we will we learn.

[dschmott]

56. We should all take a moment to mourn the loss of 28 innocent lives, 20 of them young children...

But then take the rest of your life to find a way to stop this craziness. I'm not sure how to do this but I'm looking...

[phylny]

62. Ammunition.

I like those of you who touched upon regulating ammunition.

[FedUpWithIt All]

68. That first report just broke me. I have a 4 yr old son.

In trying to make sense of good and bad, he sees things in terms of superheros and the "bad guys". We try to teach him about safety and we worry because his responses usually deal with him assuring us that he can take the bad guys and that he'll protect himself and us. Even when he is terrified he talks of protecting and bravery.

“It’s OK. I’ll lead the way out,”

So unthinkable.