Just a reminder: Most people with mental illness are NOT violent.

[cali]

And that includes most people with schizophrenia and bi-polar disorder. The vast majority pose no threat, even when not on medication. In fact, the mentally ill are more often the victims of violence than the perpetrators of it.

[snooper2]

1. Since mental illness has catagories...

Wouldn't it make sense to see if mass shooters tend to fall into the same category of mental illness so we can discuss the issue intelligently?

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. I'm bipolar, and I think that shooters like this might be mentally ill but

what they specifically are, I don't know. I do think there has to be something very very wrong for people to be able to do this, but is it mentally ill in the sense of something like bipolar or schizophrenia (both of which normally aren't violent) or is it something else? Some other sort of brokenness? What enabled Germans to be swept up into Nazism and commit those atrocities? Was that a form of group mental illness? Or serial killers, who kill in large(ish) numbers but usually slowly and stealthily?

What category do mass murderers fall into? And if the murderers generally wind up dead too, it's very hard to interview them and determine what was wrong except by bits and pieces of clues here and there.

[Uncle Joe]

10. Mass propaganda and brainwashing.

I'm bipolar, and I think that shooters like this might be mentally ill but what they specifically are, I don't know. I do think there has to be something very very wrong for people to be able to do this, but is it mentally ill in the sense of something like bipolar or schizophrenia (both of which normally aren't violent) or is it something else? Some other sort of brokenness? What enabled Germans to be swept up into Nazism and commit those atrocities? Was that a form of group mental illness? Or serial killers, who kill in large(ish) numbers but usually slowly and stealthily?

What happens in the U.S. are more like micro events however enough micro events can jell to form a mass event.

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. Yes, I think you are right.

[white_wolf]

13. Serial killers are usually sociopaths.

They don't normally suffer from other mental illnesses, they simply have no empathy.

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. Yes, and I guess not all sociopaths and psychopaths become murderers either, based

on a TV show I saw a while back.

[white_wolf]

16. No the majority don't.

Intelligent ones often become bankers or CEO's though which can often cause a lot of harm too. I think I read a stat that said about 1/4 of all CEOs are sociopaths.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. Yes, I saw something about that on the show too, I think. What stuck with me most was the doctor who

was doing the MRIs on the brains of psychopaths did one on himself, and discovered he was one as well!

[Kennah]

63. Do you kill with a gun or do you kill with oil spills and chemical explosions?

It makes a difference in how our society then treats you.

[bettyellen]

86. of course not. but psychopaths should be prohibited from owning guns.

[GreenPartyVoter]

89. I would not be surprised if we found that there are psychopaths

in jobs involving the use of guns. Cops, military, etc. Possibly pretty high up. (I am thinking of my earlier discussion about how some are high level CEOs and such. It seems that this sort of brain structure can lead the very intelligent ones on to be very "successful" in terms of advancement and so forth.)

That then leads to the question, do we need to run an MRI on all people who want to own guns? Just to be sure they aren't really a psychopath?

[bettyellen]

49. but this kid was a spree killer, not a serial killer. totally different phenomenon.

Serials can present normally when they want to, and plan carefully so they can live in a free society.
Spree killers go off on a bender, often have psychotic breaks, delusions and hear voices.

[Chemisse]

56. Very good point.

And how do you know which person is more likely to have this happen?

I'm not sure the categories are helpful for this.

[bettyellen]

60. well spree killers are usually having a psychotic break that might have been prevented

by proper treatment. there are usually warning signs, with odd, inappropriate, often paranoid and loner type behavior starting in puberty and spiraling down into delusions the late teens to early twenties. unfortunately it usually doesn't blow up till they are close to 18 and can refuse treatment. Early intervention is key, because when the spree starts its just too damn late. medications today can usually control the voices and invasive thoughts that trouble schizophrenics and people who has suffered from serious psychosis. but they may find it hard to go on knowing if they've already done a great deal of damage to innocents, because when they get clarity, they do have a conscience and don't understand their actions any better than outsiders do. sprees are messy mass murder events, one offs and rarely is there a viable escape plan. they are generally big "fuck you" and "goodbye world" type events.

sociopaths (serials) have no conscience- and fool most people and hide their behavior so they can continue to operate. early danger signs for serial killers are abuse of animals and younger children when they are young. as they get older they usually hide the behavior better. they are generally considered un treatable and very manipulative. serial means it is a recurring event, and there is usually a greater effort made to avoid detection and escape to do it again. they usually take a compulsive enjoyment in the events.

of course most sufferers of schizophrenia are harmless, as are many other who suffer from different mental illnesses and they should not be demonized. i am only explaining because people do tend to lump all mental illness together and not realize what huge variation there is.
my brother had schizophrenia, and i know from experience how few people even know what that means. most people assume it's just bad depression.

[Chemisse]

69. So if we are to prevent some people from buying guns

It should include those with psychosis diagnoses? I thing that includes schizophrenia.

Granted, that would include many many people who would never harm a fly. But even so, with confused thought, etc, they perhaps would not be able to be responsible gun owners.

What about the people who just flip out one day and kill spouses and even their own children? These events seem to be born of extreme frustration and feeling of loss of control. I don't know how gun laws could prevent these, unless perhaps by requiring a 48 hour wait time.

[bettyellen]

71. I don't pretend to have answers, but right now anyone can buy anything if they cross a state line

and the NRA has been worked to make it faster and easier to get guns across the country. We need to limit it so felons and seriously sick individuals cannot buy them on a whim. I think licensing, more complicated back round checks, and tracking wold be a huge first step. We need to hold people responsible for keeping their guns safe and secure. Treat it as a responsibility, not just a right.

But republicans have worked to destroy mental health programs also. I know people here get upset that the NRA uses it as a deflection, but there needs to be much better outreach, support and treatment programs for those families and individuals who need it.

There are always going to be people who fall through the cracks, but right now it's everybody.

[Chemisse]

82. In my state, people with serious mental health crises sit in ERs for days

Waiting for a bed to open up at the state's only psychiatric hospital.

That is a catastrophic failure.

[bettyellen]

85. my Mom was in a ER waiting room for over 36 hours after a car accident

she went straight to the ICU, was over 70 years old at the time. It's horrible.

[Chemisse]

87. That must have been a horrible ordeal.

[bettyellen]

88. when they released her, she was burning up with pneumonia....

and they said, well- that wasn't what she was admitted for. she needed 24 hour care and monitoring, and we had to scramble with no advance notice to find her a place in a rehab facility. it was pretty awful.

[TygrBright]

28. No, it wouldn't

Those "categories" you are talking about are merely descriptions of clusters of symptoms, in most cases, and not very accurate or reliable ones, again in most cases.

While our understanding of mental illness has greatly increased over the last few decades, it is still very primitive. Most of the clusters of symptoms we regard as diagnostic of this or that mental disorder can be caused by multiple factors and many unknowns. IOW, it's not like saying "Okay, we took a blood sample and looked at it in the lab and found X disease organism, so you have x disease and we're going to treat that."

It's not at ALL like that. We cannot take samples of the brain tissue of a live person affected by a mental disorder. Even if we could, we wouldn't know where to look-- the brain is a huge and complex system we've only begun to map.

One thing we do know is that environmental and experiential factors are involved in the development of many disorders to the state of expression ("expression" is the point where a mental disorder becomes clearly obvious AS a disorder, if not to the person affected, at least to a diagnostician. That is, the point where the disorder results in sensations and behaviors that clearly damage the well-being of the person affected.) We don't know exactly how such factors interact with endocrinological balances, electromagnetic flows, genetically-determined brain architecture and microstructures, etc.

A few mental disorders have very highly characteristic symptoms that pretty accurately differentiate them from other problems and predict with a reasonable degree of accuracy how the disorder might progress and how the patient might respond to various treatments. A few. A VERY few, actually.

Really, at this point, all we know for sure about mental disorders is how much we have yet to learn about them before we will truly understand them, be able to accurately diagnose them, and effectively treat them.

I am not willing to build public policy about whose rights are abrogated how on that level of knowledge.

What we can (and should) be doing is funding this research, and providing many, many, many options in every community for the treatments we DO have, that do often work for many individuals although we don't always know why. We need careful development of public policy on how to deal with people whose illnesses may pose a danger to themselves and/or others, and options for providing help and care for those individuals in a non-punitive, non-threatening, caring and productive way. And we need to make those options widely available in communities, and provide families with access to legal and medical assistance in understanding the issues and options, and using them appropriately.

But all that stuff costs a lot of money and our Beloved Oligarchs haven't yet figured out how to make obscene profits from it, so it's unlikely to happen.

[NRA_SUCKS]

42. Why does he have to be mentally ill to be evil?

Seriously, we always talk about how someone is "ill this or mentally that" why?
Why can't this guy just have been royally pissed off?
Why can't he have been a bible-thumper (ok point that is a mental illness)
Or....
I think I may have broken my own argument.

Still, why do we always assume these things are done for some mentally broken reason?

Columbine... I'm sorry but that was well reasoned, calculated, and motivated. These boys were tormented to insanity.
there was no mental illness. that was revenge pure and simple.
Here we are 10+? years later and we still ignore the causes for many of these outrages.

mental illness also can no longer be a simple throw-away excuse.
Many many many successful people out there are "mentally ill" in some way or another... and what is mental illness anyway? what is normal?

We need to look at the cold facts.

someone just killed 20 children, his mother, and 7 other adults.

Yes I'm interested in the WHY, and WHAT motivated him. but there is also a very cold real fact that if extended magazines, and automatic weapons were not available the death toll is likely to have been FAR FAR FAR less. people can move astonishingly fast between clips.

[1monster]

51. Because it is inherently mentally unbalanced/ill to want to commit murders, mass or otherwise,

on innocent people, especially small children.

The perp may not be insane (which legally means not able to tell right from wrong), but that doesn't mean that he isn't mentally ill. There is something wrong with the processing in his brain. Sociopaths know right from wrong, but don't care. They are missing element in their mental make up that the rest of us have.

They do not and can not feel emotions the way others do.

I have heard of pepole who have had head injuries that left them unable to feel emotion (other than a cold anger). Perhaps those who are sociopaths have some sort of brain injury as a result of birth trauma or accident when they were young.

Just because something like Columbine was well calculated doesn't mean it was well reasoned. In fact, logic and reason in that act was seriously flawed. Revengeful thinking itself is a type of mental unbalance.

[NRA_SUCKS]

52. I agree... it's simply it feels like we tend to dismiss anything from a "disturbed mind"

and never actually take the time to consider how and WHY said person went postal.
may come out something similar here.
the shooter was 20... honestly that's still a teenager. (im 37, and I realize that at 20 I was only slightly more mature than when I graduated HS)

as noted, I admit it um... shot down my own argument mid-logic. that doesn't change the fact that we need to consider all the facts to get at the core of WHY this was done.
and that doesn't seem to have been done in ANY of the mass shootings since and including columbine.

understanding = prevention

[Posteritatis]

81. The simple answer is that that makes it easier for people to swallow.

"Oh, it happened because he was intrinsically and irrevocably broken. It's just that simple; no need to make ourselves uncomfortable by examining a problem that is much more multi-faceted than we'd like, so it's just that."

[leftstreet]

2. DURec

[slackmaster]

3. Kicking because many folks here are actively stigmatizing all mentally ill people

[Live and Learn]

26. I don't think that is true.

I certainly haven't seen it. I think some here are rightfully concerned that blaming mental illness may result in even more stigmatization of the mentally ill but I don't think anyone here thinks that the vast majority of people with psychological problems or chemical imbalances are violent.

However, much is left unknown in the area of psychology and much more study should be done so that we can identify and help all of those that are in need of help.

[bettyellen]

50. I see people trying to get people to understand the health care crises in regards to the mentally

ill. You can't tip toe around every depressed person wen you are talking about the consequences of leaving people wo are psychotic untreated.
I saw one anti gun person demonizing the ill because it takes away from their gun control advocacy to think about mental health, and that's it.

This OP is bullshit.

[Cetacea]

4. Most of the mentally ill people I know are out rescuing abused animals from normal people

Thanks, Cali.

I'll leave with this if you don't mind.
A few FACTS:


http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php

[Lone_Star_Dem]

6. Mental illness varies greatly.

Too few people understand that. There is no one-size-fits-all when it comes to mental health matters.

[HappyMe]

7. Exactly.

[Skittles]

8. CORRECT

[Sarah Ibarruri]

9. Most people are not violent, but mentally ill people are just more unpredictable than those without

a mental illness. Their emotions are in an upheaval.

[FedUpWithIt All]

12. This is a very important thing to remember.

Most are not violent.

Some are though and there need to be better resources for identifying and treating those who suffer from violent tendencies that are either caused by or aggravated by their mental illness.

[Cetacea]

32. "A very small percentage" are violent. We need to protect them from violence. Look at the numbers:

- "The absolute risk of violence among the mentally ill as a group is very small. . . only a small proportion of the violence in our society can be attributed to persons who are mentally ill (Mulvey, 1994)."

-"People with psychiatric disabilities are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violent crime (Appleby, et al., 2001). People with severe mental illnesses, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or psychosis, are 2 ½ times more likely to be attacked, raped or mugged than the general population (Hiday, et al.,1999)."


http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php

[FedUpWithIt All]

39. People with some types of mental illness

are more prone than the general population to engage in risky behavior. Better mental health service to diagnose and better understanding and treatment IS a great way to reduce the risk to those who are mentally ill.

These same things would also help to identify the "small percentage" who do pose a risk to others.

[cleanhippie]

14. Just a reminder: Most people that own guns are NOT violent.

The vast majority pose no threat.

[cali]

19. what a vapid little non-sequitur

[cleanhippie]

24. Uh, ok.

We have the same goal, cali; stop the denigration of a large group of people because of the actions of a few.

[Go Vols]

22. +1

[laundry_queen]

33. THEY may pose no threat

but their gun does. To all of us.

[cleanhippie]

54. If that is what you need to tell yourself...

Inanimate objects pose no threat. It is those that use them for evil that do.

[laundry_queen]

61. They post a threat to everyone.

Less guns=less gun deaths. Proven everywhere.

Only teh evil cause gun deaths - jesus.

[cleanhippie]

73. Funny thing, statistics, show the opposite to be the case.

Gun ownership in this country is at an all-time high, while the gun violence rate is at its lowest since the 70's.

Not opinion, but fact. You can read it for yourself in the FBI crime data reports. Enjoy.

[Uncle Joe]

37. There is a profound difference which you ignored.

People own guns by choice, it's purely voluntary, the same can't be said for mental illness.

[cleanhippie]

55. Irrelevant.

Has nothing to do with the point the OP or I made.

[Uncle Joe]

58. To the contrary it has everything to do with it.

People have no choice in regards to how they're born, you can be born black, white, a genius a moron, mentally stable or mentally troubled, in superior physical condition or disabled from the start, but we do have power in regards to our gun laws and that should be our focus.

As the OP clearly stated "most people with mental illness aren't violent," you stated an obvious but irrelevant fact, "most people owning guns aren't violent," I propose the idea that society should take care of what it can while not wasting energy on what it can't control.

[laundry_queen]

62. +1000 nt

[originalpckelly]

68. Except that the vast number of people who own guns want something that is only meant to kill.

[AlexSatan]

75. Really?

So those shooters competing in the Olympics are trying to kill something? What are they trying to kill?

[FarCenter]

18. Violent Behavior and DSM-IV Psychiatric Disorders: Results from the National Epidemiologic Survey on

Violent Behavior and DSM-IV Psychiatric Disorders: Results from the National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2922980/

Results

Controlling for sociodemographic characteristics and other comorbidity, the odds of violent behavior were significantly increased (p < 0.05) among individuals with substance use disorders, pathological gambling, major depressive disorder, bipolar disorders, panic disorder with agoraphobia, specific phobia, and paranoid, schizoid, histrionic, and obsessive-compulsive personality disorders. Percentages of violent behavior among individuals with each comorbid disorders was significantly greater (p < 0.05 – p < 0.0001) than the corresponding percentages among those presenting with the pure form of each disorder. Alcohol and drug use disorders were the most significant contributors to the public health burden of violent behavior.

[nickinSTL]

20. thank you for posting this

I have a very good friend recently diagnosed with Bipolar II, and so she would be classified as being mentally ill.

I can't see any scenario in which she would EVER be a danger to anyone. Other than, unfortunately, possibly herself.

She's suffered from debilitating depression for many years, and it's taken a very long time to learn that it was due to bipolar disorder rather than primary depression.

But, the stigmatization of the mentally ill in the discussion of gun control concerns me, as I don't want her to face more challenges than she already does.

She has absolutely zero interest in ever owning (or even seeing or touching) a gun, so I'm not too worried about her being barred from gun ownership, just any potential spill-over into other areas of life.

If background checks for gun ownership are going to show up with mental status (possibly violating HIPAA), will background checks for employment also be able to access that kind of information? I think there needs to be some serious discussion of how to implement better safeguards without destroying the lives of all people coping with mental illness.

[FedUpWithIt All]

29. There are two types of bi-polar disorder and has been broken down further into several groups

Some episodes, the episode being affected by type, are marked by irrationality, aggression and psychotic thinking. Type I struggle more with the previously mentioned issues.


Bipolar disorder, like so many other mental illnesses, is often badly misunderstood by the population at large.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/the-two-types-of-bipolar-disorder/all/1/

There needs to be better mental health care and better public education in this country.

[nickinSTL]

31. I don't doubt that

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 03:50 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't pretend to be an expert on bipolar, and I know that many people with bipolar have a much different experience than my friend does.

Definitely agree about both the care and education.



Thanks for the link. Bipolar II definitely fits my friend (as have other descriptions of it I've read). I'm a little concerned about the statement: "...for many people, bipolar II may be bipolar I waiting to happen."

[pandr32]

21. It has been said that the shooter had a personality disorder

which includes psychopathy. Personality disorders are distinct within the broader category of mental illnesses yet often are co-morbid with another condition.

[progressoid]

23. Yup.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

25. thanks for reminding all of us that, Cali

[etherealtruth]

27. This needs to be said over and over

[janedum]

30. WHO was mentally ill? The mother OWNED the guns!

She was the kindergarten teacher for pete's sake!
WTF!!?

[Union Scribe]

46. And who did she kill? nt

[UndahCovah]

34. Yes, and most gun owners don't commit crime

The demonization of gun owners in general and those with mental difficulty in general has me worried.

[Scruffy Rumbler]

35. Thanks you, cali.

[laundry_queen]

36. Amen

So sick of the bs about if only guns were kept out of the hands of the mentally ill, there would be no gun violence. The problem is guns. Tired of the NRA scapegoating the mentally ill.

[dinger130]

38. During psychotic episodes,

My son would think that many people were actually devils walking around and he wanted to save the world from them. Don't bet on it. He is at this moment at the base of a mountain in Northern California waiting for the angels. Since he is an adult and hasn't committed a crime, there is nothing I can do. Sometimes the agony of all this is more than I can hardly bear.

If he happened to get a hold of a gun, I can not say that he wouldn't try to eliminate his perceived "devils". When one is out of touch with reality, anything can happen.


REFORM MENTAL HEALTH IN THIS COUNTRY!

REFORM THE GUN LAWS!

[FedUpWithIt All]

40. I am sorry for your pain.

I agree with the following

REFORM MENTAL HEALTH IN THIS COUNTRY!

REFORM THE GUN LAWS!

[rainlillie]

66. "REFORM MENTAL HEALTH IN THIS COUNTRY! REFORM THE GUN LAWS! "

AMEN!

[Rozlee]

41. It's said that the killer had Asperger's Syndrome.

I have a six-year-old grandson in the first grade who is currently under psychological observation for episodic violent outbursts in his class. The prognosis is leaning toward Asperger's. Children with this disorder often adapt or learn to control it as they grow older, especially with therapy. Notables with Asperger's: Dan Akroyd, Daryl Hannah, Mark Zuckerberg, Satoshi Tajiri, who is the creator and designer of Pokemon, Vernon L. Smith, a Nobel Laureate in Economics, Craig Nicholls, the headman of the garage band The Vines, Bob Dylan, Bill Gates, Robin Williams and Keith Olbermann. Highly suspected cases from their histories and behavior in biographies: Abraham Lincoln, Charles Schultz, Bertrand Russell, Emily Dickinson, Henry Thoreau, Vincent van Gogh, Virginia Woolf, HP Lovecraft and Edgar Allen Poe. Of course, there has also been Nick Reilly, a failed suicide bomber from Britain, Robert Durst, a real estate developer accused of murder and Robert Napper, a British murderer.

[DonCoquixote]

57. thank you

for an aspie

I had no idea Dylan

[Rozlee]

77. And Einstein.

[Kennah]

64. I read Asperger, Autism, and then "a form of Autism"

[Rozlee]

76. It's considered an "autism spectrum disorder."

Autism can rage from mutism to high-functioning, where people don't even realize the person has it. Asperger's comes under the umbrella of high-functioning.

[Raksha]

70. I'm not familiar with all the names you mentioned,

or if I am I don't know why they were included on this list, but I would have pegged Bob Dylan, Robin Williams, Emily Dickenson, Thoreau and many others as classic ADD/ADHD types. It sounds as though Asperger's syndrome is being confused with ADD, and I didn't even know that was possible. I thought they were completely different syndromes.

[Rozlee]

74. ADD/ADHD is often mistakenly attributed to kids with Asperger's.

The two have some similar behaviors that overlap in children. Tantrums, inability to pay attention, frenetic levels of activity at certain times, and difficulty concentrating. The difference with Asperger's is certain behaviors that can be mistaken for tics such as continuous hand wringing, head jerking and other persistent body movements as well as extreme clumsiness. "Aspies" CAN concentrate on subjects that interest them. In fact, the hallmark of the condition is extreme interest in one subject. My six-year-old grandson is interested in ships that were sunk like the Titanic, the Britannic, the Lusitania, the Bismark and other sea ships. He can tell you if they were cruise liners, hospital ships, battleships; how they were sunk (U-boat, combat, mischance), dates they were sunk, their dimensions, height, weight, who built them and their historical contexts (WWI, WWII, peace time, piracy, etc.). Obsessive interest in certain subjects such as astronomy, collecting VIN numbers from antique cars and types of grass is what differs children with Asperger's from people with ADD/ADHD. Then, of course, you have cases in children where the two conditions overlap. Asperger's is considered a high-functioning type of autism. I included a lot of overachievers and good people on my list to show that all people with Asperger's don't grow up to shoot up schools. There is a problem with depression in their population as with all the spectrum of autism. Our society needs to address the problem of depression in all individuals to prevent tragedies from happening. I was just upset at how one article on the shootings played up the Asperger's angle over and over like the condition causes murderous rampages.

[BainsBane]

43. thank you!

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:38 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm sick to death of seeing attacks on the mentally ill used as an excuse to defend guns.

25% of the American population has some form of mental illness. Depression is by far the most common mental illness--in fact the WHO lists it as one of the most common world health problems. In the US, like elsewhere, most of those with depression are women; they outnumber male sufferers by about 2 to 1. When was the last time you saw a woman shoot up a school or a mall?

[fizzgig]

44. no, we're not

thanks cali

[Deep13]

45. Most people who are truly insane...

...are incapacitated by it and cannot plan this kind of violence.

[Chorophyll]

47. Good reminder. Thank you. nt

[HockeyMom]

48. My daughter (33) is bi-polar

as is her cousin (41). Never, say never. My niece was on drugs as a teenager and tried to run over a homeless man in one of her manic states. Also, tried to commit suicide a couple of times. Back in those days, not much was known about bi-polar. She was hospitalized quite a few times as a teenager, until medication, and the elimination of the drugs and booze, changed her life. Today she is a married mother of 3 teenager girls and nobody would ever know her mental illness.

My own daughter had her bouts of manic and depression during HS. Her depressive state was worse than the manic. She tried to cut her wrists a few times, and finally when she was 21, she checked herself into the hospital where she was diagnosed. My daughter still has her "ups and downs", but manages to be a functioning member of society.

A major point is that neither of them are anywhere near GUNS, and both to this day, say they wouldn't want to be. Neither have been INVOLUNTARILY committed, or ADJUDICATED mentally ill. There is the TECHNICALITY. In many states because of these legalities, they would be free to own guns. Bad, bad, BAD. Even my daughter will tell anyone who asks her that she could not trust HERSELF being around a gun. She says, as in her younger years, she more probably would have killed herself with a gun, but "Better SAFE, than SORRY".

[cali]

65. and? A good friend of mine is bi-polar. He's also a

hunter. In the 30+ years I've known him, (he's been on medication, lithium than depakote) he's never been anything but responsible. Responsible as a father of 3, as a husband, as a teacher and as a hunter. YOU should not have the right to limit his rights.

[Posteritatis]

80. The word "never" doesn't appear in the OP. (nt)

[ReRe]

53. I haven't heard everything about the young man that perpetrated this horrible act.....

.....but more and more is trickling out. This, IMHO, is what happened to this young man in life:

He had disabilities that were never addressed. He never got the help that he desperately needed. Some kids who don't get professional help in childhood can still make it out alright, IF they have a loving family, have a good pediatrician, are offered positive activities (sports, scouting, 4-H, etc.), and are otherwise encouraged to keep their school work up.

However, sometimes parents deny the fact that their child has a problem. In fact, these might have been the kind of parents that should never have had children in the first place. One clue that this was a factor, is that the mother had those guns in a place that the kid could get to them. And BTW, where is the father??? How has his father escaped scrutiny? Long story short, that kid fell through all the cracks, got no support or help as he grew to adulthood, from teachers or parents.

[oldhippie]

59. But you don't know which ones ...

... which is the main problem.

[Dorian Gray]

67. Of course they aren't

[riderinthestorm]

72. +10000. This creepy meme that's beginning to take hold that this shooting is about mental illness,

not guns, is beginning to make me really uncomfortable.

The mentally ill are already stigmatized enough, they don't need this laid on them as well.

The easy accessibility to guns is 1 problem.

Mental health care in the US is another, different problem.

Those who are trying to conflate this are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Adam Lanza (and most of the other mass murderers of his ilk) appear to come from families that would have had the resources to get their troubled kids mental healthcare, or these were folks who WERE already in the system.

[Posteritatis]

78. It's the same discussion that's popped up with every other mass shooting

DU launches a two-minute-hate on mental illness after every single last one of those, or any other high-profile crime. Same stuff every time, too; "mental illness is really any stance I dislike," "I'm going to define mental illness broadly and suggest anyone under my definition be stripped of various rights," "anyone with any kind of mental disorder is a potential axe murderer," "we should lock them all up for our safety," yadda yadda.

Happening with this one, happened with Virginia Tech, happened with Breivik's attack, would have happened with Columbine if the site was around that long ago.

[truebluegreen]

79. +1000

[riderinthestorm]

83. This article dropped like a stone yesterday, maybe better luck here? 5 myths on mass shootings

5 myths on mass shootings


http://www.heraldextra.com/news/opinion/editorial/around-the-nation/myths-about-mass-shootings/article_bb9540bd-68d9-5dd4-9c5a-c8d718dd0f5a.html


With 12 dead and 58 injured, the July 20 massacre at the midnight premiere of "The Dark Knight Rises" in Aurora, Colo., is one of the largest mass shootings in U.S. history. Aurora is only 20 miles from Columbine High School, where seniors Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed 13 and injured 24 in 1999. We may think we know what makes the perpetrators of mass shootings -- mostly boys and men -- tick. Though psychology doesn't always lend itself to hard statistics, there are some surprising patterns.

1. Shooters are insane.

The 2002 Safe School Initiative report looked at 41 attackers across 37 incidents from 1974 to 2000. It concluded that only 17 percent "had been diagnosed with mental health or behavior disorder prior to the attack." Most had never had a mental health evaluation but 78 percent "exhibited a history of suicide attempts or suicidal thoughts."

Adult and teen shooters do not suddenly snap. Their anger and planning often develop over time. And the more they plan, the more an argument can be made, legally, that they are sane.

snip

By contrast, most experts (after his death) have declared Columbine shooter Eric Harris a psychopath. With that label, he could not have pleaded insanity because, while he would be seen as coldblooded, he would also be considered rational, calculating, aware of his actions.

[steve2470]

84. k&r excellent point nt