I was diagnosed with Bipolar II last summer, spent 3 weeks in a psychiatric day program.

[Denninmi]

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:17 PM - Edit history (1)

Due to depression, anxiety, panic attacks and a few other precipitating factors.

Thanks to everyone on DU who is painting everyone with a mental health issue with a broad brush and lumping us in with mass murderers.

Here's an irony, yesterday I "came out" in the DU Lounge forum, and got a lot of love, support, kind words, and felt better about myself. Guess I shouldn't have bothered.

I would love for someone to explain to me exactly why I am such a danger to society?

A couple hints for you, I don't own guns, never have. I do have a number of kitchen knives because I fancy myself to be a pretty damned good amateur chef. Perhaps I shouldn't be trusted with Calphalon or Henckles?

I might be in the middle of boning a chicken or chopping onions and get the sudden urge to go kill someone just out of the blue?

I guess I might as well confess to my criminal history - the same day OJ Simpson allegedly murdered Nicole and Ron Goldman, I was pulled over for going 32 mph in a 25 mph zone. Had to pay a $100 fine and got 2 points on my license.

I guess my two college degrees, one with a perfect 4.0 GPA, my professional and advanced professional certifications really don't say nearly as much about who I am as a man as does the fact I take 300 mgs of a mood stabilizing drug every day?

FWIW, even when I was attending the day hospital program, I was working some evenings on court filings, preparing tax returns for extension filers, and drafting estate planning docs. Clearly not functional in the real world.

Enough said. Thanks for all of your sensitivity and compassion. I feel so much better now.

[FarPoint]

1. We as a society have to process this tragedy as it is and for what it is...

The mental health issue of Adam Lanza is a huge part of this analysis. Nothing personal...please remember this...The mental health spectum is a large one.

[blaze]

2. Denninmi!!

I did not see your post in the lounge, but have enjoyed many of your posts in C&B!!

All these threads are so.... well.... I guess people are venting and coping the best they can. Some good. Some not so much.

I value you as a member here in DU.

[dionysus]

3. you're not a danger to society. mentally ill doesn't automatically = psychopath

[liberal_at_heart]

6. mental illness can take the best people in the world

and plant thoughts in their heads they would never in a million years have thought of if they didn't have mental illness. My husband who is the best friend, husband, father, and citizen you could ever hope to meet had a mental break down after some very traumatic events in his life. He had severe depression and borderline bipolar. I won't get into specifics but he did have thoughts of self mutilation and suicide. It took getting on the right medication from a pyschiatrist to bring his thoughts back to reality. I don't think people with mental illness are bad people. Far from it. But some mentall illnesses can be very dangerous and we need better resources for them to get the help they need.

[dionysus]

10. i agree completely. i think this shooter had severe mentall illness. but let us not act as if

everyone with mental illness is a danger.

[LeftInTX]

19. It's also next to impossible to force an adult to get treatment.

I wouldn't be surprised if that is part of the picture here.

The fact that he killed his mom first........

[Posteritatis]

61. Way too many DUers are steadfastly convinced that is the case, though. (nt)

[HockeyMom]

4. You have no right to own a gun

Neither does my bi-polar daughter, who has never BEEN adjudicated mentally incompetent.

Actually, I don't I have a right to own a gun EITHER, without any of the above, because I have NO NEED for it. Most certainly I don't want to have a gun in a public school classroom or a mental health facility where I have worked. FORCE it on me????? I would quit.

[dlwickham]

54. you do have a right to own a gun

it's called the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution

you may not need it but you have a right to it just like the vast majority of Americans do

[CaliforniaPeggy]

5. My dear Denninmi...

I treasure you, both here on DU, and in your own real world...

Please don't ever change.

[Shivering Jemmy]

7. Do you really think you should own a gun? I don't.

Unless an accredited doc says you're all better.

I'm clinically depressed. I shouldn't own one either.

I wish you well on your path to recovery.

[cali]

11. you know yourself, but you don't know the op

and "all better" is hardly a clinical term.

[Fumesucker]

12. If you really, really, really want to keep people from seeking help with mental difficulties

Your comment is exactly how to go about it.

Congratulations.

[HereSince1628]

16. It's not the gun ownership it's the facile baseless fear of the mentally ill

Unrealistic, hyperbolic notions about the violent nature of generic unspecified mentally illness will foile attempts at reasonable consideration of who should be sold guns and will ultimately be used to stigmatize and punish many many times more mentally ill people who represent no increased risk for violence for each one that does. Some insomnia is caused by mental illness, some forms of erectile dysfunction are caused by mental illness.

If you can't distinguish between forms of mental illness then you destroy any and ALL of the slim chance of creating a mental health screening tool that has any chance of being of practical use to detect the truly potentially violent minority of mentally ill that do represent an increased risk to others through the purchase of a gun.

That makes the situation WORSE rather than better for everyone who wants reasonable precautions to be used to keep weapons out of the hands of the small percentage of mentally ill who commit gun violence.


If you can't distinguish between mental illness relative to their increased or not increased risk to commit a violent act you simply expand what might be reasonable concern about a small percentage of people with a rather limited number of mental illnesses to everyone who is diagnosed with a mental illness.

That sort of common aggressive ignorance towards the mentally ill promotes fear among the mentally ill of how they will be treated by persons who are stupidly cruel, but mentally well, who exercise various versions of the following logic...

If the mentally ill can't be trusted with a gun...

then
I can't trust them with a promotion or a job,

then
I can't trust them to interact with my customers or vendors,

then
I can't interact with that co-worker,

then
I can't interact with that member of my congregation,

then
I can't allow that family member near my children.

then
I can't go to that family members home anymore.

then
I can't give that person a ride to the mental health clinic where they are treated

[BainsBane]

21. Well said

Thank you.

[freshwest]

44. +1

[fizzgig]

40. you said it better than i ever could

thank you

[Warren DeMontague]

25. I come across all sorts of rage-drunk "sane" assholes who shouldnt own 'em either

Hell, it's bad nough that most of them have cars.

[jtuck004]

47. +1 n/t

[Denninmi]

26. Exactly where in my post did I say I wanted to own a gun?

If I had my way, after mass shooting after mass shooting, they would all be banned, confiscated, and destroyed. And the NRA investigated to see if it violated campaign finance laws.

News flash for ya, if I did want to off myself, I could probably come up with 20 ways to do it without even leaving my house and that would't involve firearms. I kinda spent 3 weeks at the psych ward because I came to the conclusion I didn't want to die.

Finally, if I really wanted to drop a few hundred bucks, it wouldn't be on a gun, it would be on the iPhone 5 I've been coveting.

[progressoid]

8. We're not all broad brush painting...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021990519

[Denninmi]

28. Thanks.

I know. I just read enough to piss me off. Most DUers are great people.

[cali]

9. I am so sorry. I have been enraged by the insensitivity on display here

about those with mental illnesses.

[Terra Alta]

13. I'm so sorry.

I have depression, anxiety, and panic attacks myself so I know what you're going through..

Most mentally ill people aren't a danger to society, but it's the few that are who make the rest of us look bad. I hate being lumped in with those type of people, especially when I've never even entertained the idea of hurting someone... I really hope people's attitudes toward mental illness change, but I think this all started when Reagan closed the mental health facilities and made people with mental illnesses seem "deranged".. we are still living with his effects to this day.

[99th_Monkey]

14. My 28 y.o. son is in now in a psych ward in Oregon.

He's a beautiful guy, artistic, creative, funny, loves photography, paper cut,
collage, skateboarding, spontaneous rapping. Bi-polar is the diagnosis.
Episodes have occurred every 1-2 years for past 10, and can last for up to
5 mo., during which time he needs constant professional oversight and
guidance, much of which neither I nor his mom (we're divorced) are able
to provide.

That said, he is also as loving and peaceful as the day is long @ summer Solstice.
At the same time, he is definitely a danger to himself, by wandering aimlessly
wherever his manic whims take him: stranger's back yards, inside college lunch
room kitchen after closing hours, etc. and can become overly irritable and
agitated in public, creating a "scene". These in turn, bring the police: i.e.
people with loaded guns authorized to shoot him dead the instant he does not
behave exactly as directed. <-- (danger to self in my book).

His psychic skin is super thin, and he is hypersensitive to these "disturbances in
the energy field". He feels the FUBAR state of the world (such as these most recent
tragedies) is a major contributing factor to his instability and sense of hopelessness
about life in general. I agree.. we need to fucking DO SOMETHING NOW ...
including providing adequate funding for mental health workers and programs
that are non-coercive, welcoming, warm and fuzzy (in a good way), and that
really work.

Thank you for your post, your courage, and the awesom example you are to others
who deal with these kinds of feelings and experiences.

[LeftInTX]

22. I'm sorry about your son

I'm glad that he is able to obtain appropriate treatment.

[99th_Monkey]

32. It is never easy or straightforward.

He NEVER ever has gotten really "IN" on the first "incident", because they "have
no beds", so it becomes a 1-2 month nightmare of successive incidents, most
involving those guys with guns, before they finally "find a bed" for him to actually
stay in there until his is through the worst of it.

..hence the admonishment in my post, "we need to fucking DO SOMETHING
NOW ... including providing adequate funding for mental health workers
and programs that are non-coercive, welcoming, warm and fuzzy (in a good way),
and that really work. "

Thanx for your good vibes.

[Fire Walk With Me]

15. Mental illness is one of the last societal taboos, in that "we don't discuss it" in public

and like gay rights and equality, it's time to start the discussion and to dispel any lack of education regarding it.

I'm dual diagnosis and have had a horrible life, and in being ill, have sometimes caused emotional harm to those around me. I have to work to not use my errors as reasons to cultivate self-damaging moods, etc. I have absolutely no idea how to fix any harm I've caused, and it would be ludicrous to imagine that I am unaware or unremorseful about any of it. I've also been an easy target for some who, lacking any sense of compassion and empathy whatsoever, find "entertainment" in pushing my buttons over and over and over. One person on an internet forum I used to frequent even had an autosignature stating "Never underestimate the entertainment value of a nutjob". They have no concept that I fully understood this and how absolutely mortifying it was, and is. Learning about my illness occurred most publicly on the eternal internet. People call me an Asperger or borderline Autist and imagine that I don't realize they are discussing me, and that it HURTS. Life is difficult enough without being so very different, and instead of being supported and understood, experiencing gossip and abuse. "Being laughed at, is like being whipped." -Hemingway, "Tortilla Flat".

I've gotten angry in attempts to run off these jerks, but all it did, of course I now understand, was empower them. If I've been sick and destructive, it's out of pain beyond my ability to describe, loneliness along those lines, and knowing that I'll never ever fit in or be able to function like my fellows, or have many of the things they take for granted. I'm still willing after all of this to suit up and show up regardless, and to work toward a better world, one which is obviously so very desperately needed.

I'm so terribly sorry for your experience in this regard. I'm sorry that the shooting has had to occur for this conversation be started. But I guess that it's time.

Mental illness is far more complex than "normal" people would imagine. That it ever ends in tragedy is beyond my ability to discuss. That it should be the subject of greater empathy, understanding, and support is something for which I must hope. Peace to you. Thank you to all who do support and attempt to understand.

[Smarmie Doofus]

34. +1 Thanks for the education. n/t

[Fire Walk With Me]

46. Oh, important addendum...

I try to work the AA program, so I'm not carrying around the doses of pain and upset previously mentioned. A better life is possible when there is support.

[blazeKing]

17. You're at an increased risk

I was mentally ill from 18-23 with severe depression. I took meds for it and they were powerful meds that changed a lot of my personality. I came off them over an 8 month taper and it was worth it in the end, I no longer suffer at all.

Looking back, I COMPLETELY understand why people are very wary of people with mental illness. I completely understand why I was discriminated against in terms of job opportunities and everything else. Would you have a paranoid schizophrenic babysit your kids? Would you hire someone with a mood disorder that makes them go off on a customer every now and then? Normal thinking people have every right to be skeptical and wary of those with mental conditions and especially those with untreated mental conditions.

The statistics don't say you are going to be a killer, they say you are at an increased risk. Just like those who are obese are at an increased risk of diabetes. Also be aware that these statistics are with people who have been diagnosed and committed a crime. A lot of mental illness in this country is NOT DIAGNOSED and NOT counted in crime statistics.

[BainsBane]

23. False

Most of those who suffer from mental illness are women, yet men commit the vast majority of violent crimes. Maleness is a much greater increased risk than mental illness. I'd like to see these so-called statistics you refer to that prove we are more dangerous.

[Denninmi]

31. Yeah. That's helpful.

"Normal" people can be some if the biggest a-holes anyone could ever meet.

As far as "going off" on customers or clients, I've had enough over the years "go off" on me, and I've always remained calm and professional, because I'm the bigger man and I know who I am.

[redStateBlueHeart]

18. As someone with a Bipolar Diagnosis

Gotta K&R this thread

[BainsBane]

20. What mental illness looks like

Than you for your post. I share your frustration. I'd like to provide a glimpse into what mental illness is like.

My day yesterday. I took the day off work in hopes of getting things done around the house. But I've been very tired lately. I suffer from major, unipolar depression, and it has ruled my life for the past 15 years. I slept all day, woke up about 5:30 pm. I looked at my IPad and saw news of the shooting and felt utter shock. I let my dog out (an angel and my salvation). I couldn't bear the news about the dead children, and I went back to sleep until 9pm. I didn't go to a school and kill 20 children and 8 adults. I didn't think about hurting people. I didn't cause harm to anyone else, except my dog who didn't get a walk. That is what my mental illness looks like.

Like Dennimi, I'm a threat to no one. Nor am I responsible for gun violence. I resent being scapegoated so gun advocates can deflect from what makes these mass assaults possible: easy access to guns and a culture that elevates gun rights above human life.

[XemaSab]

24. We need specialized profiling

with support and compassion for people who are at risk.

These people are young men, mostly white, almost all middle class, and angry.

Slapping restrictions on a 50-yo black woman who experienced major depression after the death of her husband and who wants to get a gun 'cause she lives in a rough area doesn't solve a thing.

[Fumesucker]

45. This is America we're talking about here

Support and compassion for people who are at risk is in remarkably short supply in this nation.

The three P's will be what is used to try and "fix" this if anything is done at all, police, prayer and prisons.

I seriously thought about posting my own experience with mental illness but this thread and some others have convinced me not to be even crazier than I already am.

[backscatter712]

27. The vast, vast, vast majority of people with mental health issues are not dangerous.

Not even 0.0001% of people who have a diagnosis, or take meds, are going to "go postal."

Of course, everyone's screaming that anyone with a diagnosis immediately be scrutinized and deprived of their rights.

The thing I hate about these kinds of tragedies (aside from the tragedy itself) is the moral panic and the mass-stupidity that results.

[Fire Walk With Me]

41. I worry more about the "tea party" marching around with rifles than I do about the "mentally ill"

getting weaponry. Myself, I've always disliked guns.

[Denninmi]

50. Me too.

Like the Hutari Militia down in Lenawee County a couple years ago who were going to kill cops, start a race war, and declare their own "kingdom" out of the SE corner of Michigan.

I guess the road signs at the new border would have said "Welcome to Dumbfuckistan".

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. It is human nature and the american way to look for one simple solution for every problem.

And ideally that "solution" should demonize someone.

Try to not take the jerking knees personally. Most DU'ers have your back.

[Quantess]

30. So... When did you stop shooting random people in schools and shopping malls?

Thanks for deciding to stop shooting people at random.

[FarCenter]

33. Depressive with suicidal tendencies is not a public safety issues. Bipolar in manic phase is.

Like driving at a high speed and running cars off the interstate in one case that I'm personally familiar with.

[Denninmi]

35. It can be.

So can driving while texting. Or while letting your small dog stand on your lap with its head out the window. Or trying to unwrap and eat a Whopper.

I don't hear great public outcry about people who engage in those behaviors.

[liberal_at_heart]

43. there are states enacting laws to try to prevent those kinds of behaviors

[TexasTowelie]

36. Yes the BS needs to stop. Mental illness does not equate to murderer.

I appreciate your posts and with this recent comment you may well get to initiate a new forum on DU:
RK&BC: Right to Keep & Bear Cutlery!

[JI7]

37. i think some people use it to distract for the need to have gun control

[intaglio]

38. Hi, Denninmi! Good to see you!

Why are mental health issues being emphasised?

Because certain groups on DU want to draw attention away from the issue of (lack of) gun control in the USA. These groups are not aware of who they hurt, only that they are fine straw men to distract other posters.

Take care and enjoy life!

[Denninmi]

51. Thanks, I am.

Living well is the best revenge. I'm getting a lot of quality revenge these days, and it feels great.

[HereSince1628]

42. Not all violence is the same. The cause of safety won't be helped by conflating the unlike

Last edited Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:48 PM - Edit history (1)

A blending of these differences will produce a murky mud of reasoning (just as will the mixing of all mental illness into some generic homogenized but fearful mental illness) and that can't help.

America needs to reduce the occurrence of mass murders. No doubt.

Keeping guns out of the hands the mentally ill who represent increased risk of others may be a part of that.

But, creating a mental health screening tool that actually works, that doesn't create operational difficulties, that doesn't wrongly, unreasonably and unjustly deny 2nd amendment or other civil rights (prior restraint, Americans with Disabilities Act, etc), by creating huge discrimination against ALL the mentally ill demands that the nation, and in particular its law and rule makers, get a correct understanding of violence and the populations likely to commit it.

A fair number of variations come quickly to mind.

Some violence is done by the mentally well, and some of it is done by the mentally ill.

Some violence is very severe and destructive and some (angry yelling, arm-waiving, and hitting oneself) is not.

Some violence is done against inanimate objects and some is done against living things.

Some violence is self-harm and some violence is directed at non-self.

Some acts of violence are against strangers, most violence is directed against persons known to the perpetrator.

Some violent acts are impulsive some violent acts are planned.



When we talk about violence in the mentally ill, it is important to realize that, the vast majority of mental illness represents no increased risk of violence to self or to others.

Much of the violent behavior of persons with mental illness is reactionary and impulsive. That means it is done when someone/something stimulates a response, and that response is spontaneous and immediate.
Mass murders are not impulsive they are typically carefully and deliberately planned over a long period.

Much of the violent behavior of persons with mental illness is self-directed only a small fraction of acts of violence by the mentally ill is directed at strangers.



If the goal is to make America safer from mass murder then we must understand mass murder, and differentiate it from other forms of violence.

If there is a psychological profile to be found that can be used to identify potential mass murderers, it must be constructed in a way that isn't confounded by spurious correlations to violence of other forms.

To date, several attempts have been made to create such a profile. They've all proven to find far too many false positives to be reasonably applied as public policy.

The nation may need such a screening tool for potential of future violence to others. (so that persons can reach treatment or possibly institutionalized isolation from society) It may need a new mental health screening tool for purchasing guns. But a useful, legal, tool won't be found via conflations that simply confound all statistical interpretation of the data.

[Deep13]

48. most people with mental illnesses are not dangerous.

hope you are doing well.

[Denninmi]

52. Well, I'm pretty sure I'm not dangerous.

I think I would know if I were.

And thanks, yes, I'm doing fine.

[Deep13]

55. same here nt

[etherealtruth]

49. People with mental illness are far more likely to be victims rather than perpetrators of crime

Serious mental illness is devastating ...just as any other serious illness is.
Wishing you well nd continued recovery.

[ecstatic]

53. A lot of people are being broadbushed: Aspergers' (sp?), shy people,

intelligent people, quiet, socially awkward, etc.

[geckosfeet]

56. The mental health canard is used to derail any real discussion of gun owenership/control/regulation.

If possible, try not to take it too personally. They are just using mental health issues as cannon fodder in their crusade.

Well. On second thought. Take it personally. Take it very personally.

On the positive side, general health care coverage and mental health care coverage may improve as a spinoff of raising the bar to gun ownership .

[JohnnyLib2]

57. Thanks for a gutsy and challenging OP.

And I mean challenging in a needed and constructive way.

[AnnieBW]

58. No, you're not dangerous

You sought help and are getting it. The ones who are dangerous to themselves and others are the ones who think that it's society that's wrong, not them. FYI, I live with depression and my husband has neurological problems, too. So I know exactly where you're coming from.

[Denninmi]

60. Thanks, I know that.

I did massacre a couple of pounds of clams this morning, but that's pretty much the extent of my mayhem. It's all Hiller's fault anyway, they were on sale. Chowder, what can I say. Manhattan, I'm on a diet.

[AnnieBW]

62. Mmmm... clams...

And I'm going to bite the head off of few gingerbread men soon.

[Hatchling]

59. K and R

[Coyotl]

63. Part of our societal problem is lack of understanding of mental health issues.

Too much tendency to "not talk" about these things, perhaps.

In the USA, there are about 200,000 ambulatory care visits a day to physicians for mental health related problems. That fact alone should tell us a lot more about this issue, and how rarely a danger is posed top the community.

[Festivito]

64. If only more of us would take better care of what we learn.

We latch onto the easiest quickest idea as solution. Looks okay, housed okay, mental issue -- end of listening -- easy quick answer.

Not unlike this gunman who wants to avenge some indignity and has access to an easy solution, guns and shooting, easy and quick. If it a mental issue added to his final act, it was only a part of his life. His desire for revenge, sick revenge, drove him to this.

For some, not taking the medicine is the quick easy choice.

Sorry, I rambled so much.

Thanks for taking good care of yourself.