General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsA suggested read for those who seek a prohibition of guns:
http://www.amazon.com/Last-Call-Rise-Fall-Prohibition/dp/074327704X
baldguy
(36,649 posts)All the more reason to get rid of the damn things.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)And as such it would be widely ignored.
I can see it now: People who brag today about being "law abiding gun owners" can, when the gun ban goes into effect, camp out at the underground "shoot-easys" where they can mow down innocent children with impunity. They won't have to pretend to be sickened & appalled at the mass murders they secretly dreamed of committing themselves.
Because SHOOTIN' GUNZ IS FUN!
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)What mistakes of alcohol Prohibition do you think a proposed 'gun Prohibition' should avoid?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)What the heck? It can always be repealed.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)There's only 10 times as many gun owners as drug users. And we're so good at stopping drugs from coming over the border...and the cartels can branch out to gun-running and be even more powerful. Yep, that's going to end real well...
Chan790
(20,176 posts)A gun ban in the US would, for the gnashing of teeth, probably be as successful as Japan's 1971 ban over a similar period of time.
They're not as easy to produce as drugs or alcohol...if they were, there would already be a bootleg gun-smithing black-market in the US for obvious reasons. The absence of one proves the capacity of the government and difficulty of the premise in this respect. Just about nobody has the means or skill to produce a gun of moderate quality in their backyard from raw-material off the radar...the best-case scenario therein is something akin to the pipe-musket assembled from parts available in a hardware store: single-shot, wildly-inaccurate past 60', non-standard caliber, no magazine, slow to load, low muzzle-velocity due to lack of rifling. Severe criminalization of possession, transfer or sale would reduce guns in circulation rapidly...history and observation bears that out.
The issue raised above about smuggling of guns into the US ignores that Mexico already has a failed gun-ban (most of the guns in Mexico are smuggled in from the US) which would be substantially-increased in effectiveness by a US ban...and the difficulty of smuggling guns in any great quantity in the first place.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)villager
(26,001 posts)That is, if you can tear yourself away from your guns for just a wee bit.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Care to discuss Okrent's book?
villager
(26,001 posts)And no, Okrent's book has no bearing on whether to keep allowing military grade weapons into our streets.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)villager
(26,001 posts)And yes, in light of recent events, and role of people like you in making sure guns are easily available -- very much to apologize for.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)villager
(26,001 posts)you have too many beside-the-point posts to tend to!
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)You don't know me, and your assumption of moral superiority over me is just that-
your assumption. You also don't get to decide what is or isn't a relevant post.
On the contrary, you've gone to some lengths to derail discussion of a subject that wasn't
even directed at you- it was directed at those DUers that have expressed a desire to
ban all guns. Aside from an attitude that's more or less 'we shall prevail, for our hearts
are pure and our strength is as the strength of ten', they seem strangely unconcerned about the nuts and bolts of such a thing.
FYI, I've gone over the Sandy Hook incident plenty with friends, co-workers and loved ones.
villager
(26,001 posts)You are.
What was that about morals?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Treating those that disagree with you like blow-ins from "Sovereign Citizen Underground"
might get you points with those who already agree with your viewpoint- but it will persuade
few to change their minds....
villager
(26,001 posts)...into the body of a child?
What, specifically, are your proposals for getting those weapons off the street?
Rather than all the snarking and posturing, we'd love to hear.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)The rifle used at Sandy Hook was not legal in Connecticut, so it was obviously brought there
illegally by someone.
My proposals are interconnected:
*Make use of the NICS (instant background check system) mandatory for ALL firearms
transfers.
*Open it to private sellers, otherwise it's corporate welfare for licensed firearms dealers.
*A carrot and stick approach to encourage its use:
1) Immunity from civil and criminal liability for those sellers who properly use it.
The other side of that coin would be-
2) In addition to whatever penalties entail for illegal transfer, make a seller who doesn't
use the NICS an accessory before the fact for whatever crime might be committed with
said firearm.
Who says we're opposed to common-sense gun control?
villager
(26,001 posts)The state application for a concealed handgun license covers the same ground and, likewise, does not inquire into the mental condition of others in the applicants household.
The question is relevant.
The mother of the Connecticut shooter had legally purchased the firearms that her son used to slaughter innocents. She was among his victims, shot in her home, apparently before he drove to Sandy Hook Elementary School and killed 26 more people.
Legal experts say both the federal application to purchase a firearm and the state application for a concealed handgun permit could be expanded to include mental health information about family members or others in an applicants household.
And an applicant who admits that someone in his household suffers from mental illness could be required to take a training course in how to secure firearms using a locked safe, trigger locks or other mechanisms.
Nonetheless, glad to see the beginnings of a dialogue.
Cheers!
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)Thanks for posting.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Especially since it delved further into the history of the temperance movement.
samsingh
(17,595 posts)nothing to see here
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)This was directed at the people who made such calls.
(Added on edit: Notably, by the poster of #10- in his prior incarnation as sharesunited)
ThatPoetGuy
(1,747 posts)but there's no real parallel between a handgun ban and Prohibition, outside the minds of people grasping for straws.
Kaleva
(36,295 posts)As there are a few who want to open the registry on automatic weapons or repeal the NFA all together.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...the history of the various Prohibitions this country has/had.
Loudly
(2,436 posts)It's an important distinction from which different public policy must result.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Loudly
(2,436 posts)We deem it to be something harmful in and of itself, and we stamp it out wherever it is found.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Those that agree with you?
Still the same old sharesunited...
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Prohibition of alcohol failed, therefore everything should be legal. Is that the argument?
Do you really think that this kind of stupidity is going to appeal to anyone outside the NRA bubble?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)What would be different from the alcohol and methamphetamine prohibitions?
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Both the supply-side and the demand-side of the markets for alcohol and firearms are completely different. Many countries have successfully banned firearms, or at least certain kinds of firearms. In fact, the US is one of them, considering that there is basically no black market at all for machine guns.
So, the real question is, why would any intelligent person think that alcohol and guns are remotely similar to one another, in terms of the potential for legal restrictions.
thucythucy
(8,048 posts)Clear, concise, and absolutely to the point.
Bravo!
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)Like I pointed out, the supply-side and demand-side of the market for guns versus drugs/alcohol are completely different. I wonder if you weren't able to figure this out on your own, or if you are intentionally playing dumb for ideological reasons.
You are also ignore many successful gun prohibitions, for example in the UK or Japan. Or even in the US, with machine guns. You don't see many black market machine gun manufacturers.
The examples where gun prohibition fails are places like Mexico, but that is because parts of that country are essentially lawless and the drug gangs have more power than the police. Not to mention the fact that they border the US which has a huge and very lightly regulated gun market.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)I would also point out that the narcotraficantes not only have enough money to
get actual military (as opposed to US-legal lookalikes) weaponry, they are in fact using said
weaponry.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)since its enaction following the 1996 Dunblane school massacre. Perhaps banning guns has more public support than banning alcohol. After all, nobody ever committed mass murder with a six pack of Budweiser.
n/t
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)anybody who wants to prohibit guns is nuts, there are 300,000,000 million in this country, what are we gonna do, melt them all down.
beevul
(12,194 posts)"there are types of cars you can't own"
Which cars can't a person own?
farminator3000
(2,117 posts)the average person can't really own:
an F-1 or nascar type car. i guess maybe you could buy one, but you wouldn't be able to take it out of your garage, so it would be basically pointless. you could take it to a race track i suppose (on a trailer). that's also kinda expensive and involves licensing and insurance, training, etc.
vehicles over a certain weight you need a CDL- like a limo i believe- a commercial drivers license
actually any commercial plated vehicle has to be owned by a company- that probably varies by state
also these:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/04/cars-uncle-sam-says-you-cant-have/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Index+3+%28Top+Stories+2%29%29&utm_content=Google+Reader&pid=801&viewall=true
treestar
(82,383 posts)That is just as enforceable. Along with minors, felons and the mentally ill.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)My neighbor has a thermonuclear device and two fission devices, all of them illegal.
He's scared the crap out of me and I'm looking for a gram or two of antimatter on Craigslist.
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)So what point are you trying to make?
treestar
(82,383 posts)And liquor is licensed and restricted still.
Cars and driving are licensed and restricted.
Some substances are still banned.
The machine guns more appropriate to war zones can be banned and the rest licensed and restricted from certain people. They already are. There is no difficulty here.
Also objects used only for hunting animals or killing or sport are not the same as beverages. They are more permanent. Alcohol does not kill - or if it does, it is through years of abuse, not just one drink. One gunshot can kill someone.
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)And that means YOU:
http://blog.sfgate.com/morford/2012/12/18/death-to-all-guns/
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Because that's what it will take as a start
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)on alcohol is not the same as restricting guns.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Better than heroin Prohibition?
Better than cannabis Prohibition?
Better than methamphetamine Prohibition?
Prohibitions do seem to work well for those that get paid to enforce them, and those that get
paid to evade them.
atreides1
(16,076 posts)He hates all things gun related...at least gun ownership by citizens. I guess you could say he's the anti-gun version of Ted Nugent...but with the ability to articulate...
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)librechik
(30,674 posts)Besides, restrictions on ownership isn't prohibition.
Aussies banned guns after a crazy guy killed 35 people at one location. That law did abs9lutely nothing except make sure there was never another mass murder in Australia.(since 1996.)
They bought back 600,000 guns. It would be more expensive to buy back 300 million guns, but if the government can eradicate polio (it did) it can do this.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)How about we establish regulations at LEAST as strong as those for liquor?
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Use the carrot and stick approach to encourage use:
1) Civil and criminal immunity for those transferors who properly use it.
2)In addition to whatever penalties entail from not using it, make the illegal transferor
accessory before the fact for whatever crimes may be committed with the gun(s).
jmg257
(11,996 posts)just hankering to - quietly - squeeze off a few rounds.
Have to wonder just how big the underground demand for illegal arms will be. I would also wonder just how much it would take to pay off cops to look the other way when the contraband are illegal guns they very well may be up against (vs alcohol pretty much considered a harmless vice by so many).
Make the penalties severe enough to make the payoff unworth the risks, and most people won't bother - supplying or demanding.