There's a lot of pushback when you point out and challenge examples of rape culture...

[redqueen]

I'm sure many of you know exactly what I'm talking about. It's still important to do, though, no matter how many people want you to shut up. You will be mocked, you will be insulted, you will be smeared... but none of that matters. Ending rape culture matters.

The more people that speak up, the more it gives others the courage to speak up. So always, speak up. Whether it's jokes, comics, movies, songs, art - always speak up. We can't keep allowing dangerous, harmful ideas to go unchallenged. I don't think I need to explain why.

We are seeing a lot in the news that should motivate all of us to stop being complacent, and allowing the status quo to go unchallenged. Enough shrugging it off. Enough pretending it doesn't matter.


This blog post explains how insidious rape culture can be. It's long, but it's very well worth reading.

Long, but so well worth reading.

just shut up.

http://gyzym.tumblr.com/post/39004853136/just-shut-up

...

But consuming media critically is a skill, and in an age where media is more prevalent than ever before, it’s a skill worth having. It’s a skill worth having because you are going to continue to be exposed to media, and it is going to continue to attempt to manipulate you. It’s a skill worth having because it makes it less difficult to see people talking shit about things you like, not more. It’s a skill worth having because some of the shit being taught en masse by media is horrible scary damaging shit, and maybe you don’t think you’ve learned that horrible scary damaging shit, and maybe you don’t think you’re susceptible to that horrible scary damaging shit, and honestly? Maybe you haven’t. Maybe you’re not. I don’t know you. But I know that a classroom full of average southern Ohio state school students went silent in horror at the full realization of what Beauty and the Beast teaches kids too young to know better. I know that as someone who has spent years being taught to analyze media, as someone who has actively worked to develop the skill of understanding what a given film is attempting to wring from me, I still want to see Hugh Grant kiss Martine McCutcheon. I know that the real trick to the continued, pervasive prevalence of shit like rape culture is that it’s everywhere all the time, slipped in under the radar and riding on the fact that it’s the status quo, hidden in plain goddamn sight.

We can argue for media that doesn’t push the horrible shit we need to unlearn as a society to get to a healthier place, or we can point out the flaws in our preexisting media, or we can do both. But “Just shut up,” isn’t an option. “Just shut up,” can’t be an option, because we can’t keep playing the “Nobody told me because nobody told them,” card. Nothing will ever get better that way. Nothing will ever improve if we keep not telling people this shit. And yes, it’s easier not to watch things critically. Yes, it’s easier not to engage with this stuff. Yes, as always, “Not learning things,” is the easier option. And if you don’t want to learn things (or unlearn them, as the case may be), that’s your right. That’s your call, and nobody can stop you from making it. It’s entirely possible to like and even love problematic media while consuming it critically, while acknowledging its flaws, but if that’s not something you wish to figure out then that’s that, and there ain’t shit anybody can do about it. But for the love of god, stop arguing that people should be quiet, should stop pointing this stuff out, should stop engaging with something in a way you don’t want them to. For one thing, you’re wasting your breath—again, it’s the age of the internet. People are going to use their platforms as they please. But for another thing, there’s a huge difference between saying, “I don’t feel like dealing with this problem,” and saying, “I don’t feel like dealing with this problem and therefore no one else should either.” One of them is a personal choice, and the other is embarrassingly irresponsible. I’ll leave it up to you to work out where the chips fall on that one.

Emphasis mine.

[trumad]

1. K&R

[forestpath]

2. K&R

[Shivering Jemmy]

3. Beauty and the Beast?

Disney?

[Bonobo]

4. Yes, but there is also another side to that meta-narrative.

When Belle attempts to escape the castle in overwhelming terror of the Beast, she is attacked by wolves, whom the Beast fights off. She nurses his wounds and the story turns; in response to her kindness, the Beast begins to to display a softer side, a gentler side, a side Belle grows to love. She sings a song about how she can’t believe she didn’t see this in him before. They dance together, her in that big yellow dress. As she continues to show him warmth and kindness, he continues to stray farther and father from his original incarnation—to wit, the one that physically and emotionally terrorized her and instructed his servants to starve her if she didn’t want to eat with him—until he is in all ways but appearance a gentleman. The villages, led by the still-enraged Gaston, storm the castle, and there is a battle between Gaston and the Beast that is clearly meant to be viewed as The Battle For Belle, so to speak. Gaston loses but stabs the Beast anyway before being thrown to his doom, the Beast more or less dies, but Belle loves him, which breaks the spell keeping him trapped as the Beast and saves his life. They, in theory, live happily ever after.

-------------------
And the other side is that men are horrible beasts with injured souls that can only be healed by the tender touch of a loving woman. That is a common theme that runs through nearly all romance stories. The man as beast, the man as boy who never grew up. It is there in 3 Men and a Baby, it is there in Sleepless in Seattle, it is fucking everywhere and it is nonsense. Men can take care of themselves and do everything a woman can do AND not be a beast and a rapist.

So yes, that meta-narrative IS damaging. But not ONLY in the way you may think it is. It is damaging to the psyches of boys both in the message you says it sends, but even more insidiously in the implicit message that men need to be healed by women of their sickness.

[bettyellen]

14. the bad boy thing is still strong these days- with Twilight and the Shades of Grey series

it's really hard to hear young girls gush over those two super stalkery dudes. And thinking they'll be the ones to fix screwed up guys.
It's a stage too many young women go through. When someone you dated is still at it more than a year after breaking up, it ceases to feel harmless.

I remember the last time I saw a Disney movie we threw popcorn at the screen and shouted "Bourgeois propaganda!"

[marions ghost]

62. Yeah,

good point.

[bettyellen]

65. I told my coworker that she'd feel differently if she'd ever been stalked. But she's young and

fearless and I totally get that such trouble has never touched her. I have a friend who was a black belt and refused to report threats and stalking because she was too proud and wanted to appear fearless and not cause drama. But she was scared. She didn't report the beating and rape that followed either, because she had a prior consensual relationship with the guy. If she had reported prior threats, she could have had a successful case.

[smirkymonkey]

97. Interesting. I have never thought of it that way.

I have a very adorable, VERY sensitive nephew and I worry about him growing up in such a harsh, macho culture. He has 3 sisters, all with more confident personalities, but he is so very sensitive and I worry about him once he gets older (he's 7). He is so sweet, I just want to protect him, but I know I can't. At least I can understand him, even though I don't think his parents and the others in his life quite do.

[LiberalLoner]

5. I know that people attack us when we speak out but...

How will anything ever get any better if we don't identify the problem and try to bring about a discussion and push for change for the better?

It's not just women who are affected by this, men get raped too. The story from the man who was gang raped in the Navy was heartbreaking.

If things don't get better soon, we will be like those war torn countries in Africa where no female is ever safe, where women die from injuries sustained during rape. And men. I remember the story of the suspect who was put in the hospital by police with a broomstick handle.

I want better than that, for all of our nation, for all of our world.

[redqueen]

6. +1

[el_bryanto]

7. I think primal tales such as Beauty and the Beast have more than one meaning

Consuming media critically is something everybody needs to learn how to do. On the other hand pretending that there is one "real" interpretation of media is potentially just as damaging as looking at media uncritically. Stories can be taken different ways depending on who is interacting with the story.

Bryant

[seabeyond]

8. no. not all of us are complacent and we pay hell for it. rape has become our entertainment.

in media it has become an accepted norm as entertainments. on the net it is all over. it premeates thru out our culture.

then we say.... were do these sick fucks come from.

we feed it to our kids from a very young age.

it is a norm .... today.

[redqueen]

9. Exactly.

It's not just the rapists who are the problem. It is the constant message sent in so many forms that tells rapists they are at low risk. That we will focus on the victim, that really its her fault. That women like being abused.

[tblue37]

13. Like the village in India that wants to prevent

crimes like the gang rape and murder of that young woman by forbidding women to move around freely, dress as they wish, or possess cell phones.

Instead of changing the cultural milieu that signals men that they will get away with violence against women and rape, they just want to impose more restrictions on women.

[Locrian]

10. Great article - read it all.

And I think it applies to a lot of other things in our culture that fly under the radar as being 'ok' because the movies / tv etc say it's ok.

[redqueen]

11. Yep. We're conditioned to see it as 'normal'.

In my favorite movie, the hero slams the door, blocking the exit as his love interest is trying to leave. He then throws her against something.

This is a love scene. A romantic scene.

[daleanime]

30. "The Quiet Man"?

[redqueen]

56. I was referring to Blade Runner, but there are countless examples.

Once you start noticing it, it is almost overwhelming.

[daleanime]

59. Well yeah, but no one likes to admit that....

when it comes to sex, we're all a little messed-up.

[redqueen]

60. If the messed-upness wasn't manifesting as violence so often

it wouldn't be an issue... but it is, so we have to start focusing on it, calling it out, recognizing how harmful it is, etc.

[daleanime]

61. We do agree, although I kind of come at it from the other side...

I feel some of the violence is because we try to bury and forget the awkward problems that exist within.

[redqueen]

64. That's a valid point,

which needs to be reclaimed and defended from those who attempt to hijack it to rationalize, palthologize and normalize abusive practices.

[tblue37]

12. Excellent post, redqueen.

In the 1980s I read an article in a psychology journal that showed that when people became comfortable around attitudes like racism, then such attitudes and their accompanying behaviors--including the most vicious and extreme ones-- became increasingly more common. I call this " domesticating" the attitude or the concept.

When people talk about such things in a way that makes them seem "ordinary" rather than unthinkable, then it frees those with ugly inclinations to express those tendencies more openly, and when less extreme expressions are not quickly and forcefully rejected by the person's acquaintances, then that is taken as approval, leading to ever escalating ugliness.

We've seen this in the way FOX and its appendage (the Republicsn Party) has encouraged not just open racism, homophobia, and misogyny, but even such behavior as mocking a cabinet member's concussion and consequent blood clot in the brain. Even racists in the recent past would not have wanted to be seen publicly as doing such a thing about an African-American public official, because they would have feared almost universal public censure. But now the entire RW punditocracy feels free not only to do so about SOS Clinton, but to double and triple down on it when they hear that her condition is more dangerous than we had originally heard.

On the one hand, I suppose it's a good thing that their ugliness is so pervasive and nondiscriminating, since it makes the sheer evil of it obvious even to those who might be willing to ignore it when it is directed at someone that some people look down on already because of latent or all-out racism. But in general, it just shows how easily the veneer of civilized behavior falls away when troglodytes get the impression that their viciousness won't provoke automatic revulsion in and rejection by their community.

The fact that even here on DU people feel free to joke about or mock things that should be considered unthinkable--prison rape, for example--is evidence that as a culture, we still do not consider rape to be beyond the pale.

[bettyellen]

15. True, I remember several 'respected" posters here OPing that rapists were rare sociopaths and "knew"

what rape was and basically denying there was any cultural issue or education needed.
These guys "knew" she was being raped according to law but didn't (like some legisllators) feel it was "real rape".
If that's not a cultural issue I don't know what is.

Guys that admittedly don't hang with these kinds of jerks have less of an idea than women do. But they come here and pat themselves on the back for being good dudes, while claiming there are no fucked up little subcultures where rape is tolerated. Because THEY have never come across it.

It's not all lone sociopaths, guys. Fraternities and sports teams can be havens for these criminals. This is not news to anyone but you.

[redqueen]

16. It cuts across all segments of society, rich, poor, geeks, jocks, artists...

It might be argued that there could be more in sports and frat houses, but the fact that these rape-culture-supporting ideas are so ubiquitous means that rapists everywhere are encouraged by the widespread acceptance of the messages by society.

[bettyellen]

20. You're right. I was referring to the frats and sports teams only in the context of gang rape.....

as I recall seeing stats and it was something like 90% of reported gang rapes were committed by frats or team players. Men are apparently bonding over this "bros before hos" shit.
I'm so glad I got out of my college party stage before roofies hit the scene. It got tiring once you realized the majority these "cool guys" were just trying to get you blotto and totally incapacitated. It was normal accepted behavior, still is in many places, no matter what guys here have claimed.
I'm hoping for some convictions here, and sanctions against the coaches and prosecutors, because institutions are much too tepted to sweep this shit under the rug.

[redqueen]

57. Wow, I hadn't seen that stat.

Horrible.

I hope the two who have been charged are indicted, and that these recent more visible incidents of women being treated like objects wakes a hell of a lot of people up to how much things have to change.

[Rex]

17. Yep, really is sad to see here on DU.

They try to hijack the thread or derail it. Anything BUT let people discuss rape culture. I won't shut up until the global slave trade is destroyed.

[MadrasT]

18. Once you start to see it, you do realize it's everywhere.

And it's sick.

[DLevine]

19. K&R. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

21. There's a larger question here really, I think

to what extent is "rape culture" as described here the result of a variety of factors including a) sexual dimorphism, b) the legacy of seven million years of primate evolution on human behaviour generally, c) a culture that celebrates masculine aggression and dominance and feminine docility and subservience, d) the fact that society in developed countries has advanced beyond our aforementioned primate evolution--humans did not evolve to live in cities, in settle places, in nuclear families, without the threat of violence, and so on; all of these things are the fruits of five thousand years of what we call civilisation and of the development of forms of society and government that have been afforded by relative plenty, peace and leisure. Why do some humans act like animals one step removed from bestial savagery? Because humans are animals, is why. It would be great if it could change. I'd like to see it change, personally. To some degree, it has, but there's a lot more behind this sort of behaviour, unfortunately, than mere socialisation and cultural attitudes.

[seabeyond]

22. ah this is such bullshit and tired of we are animals so that explains it crap. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

23. Note that that wasn't a defence but an observation.

If I were attempting to excuse this then I probably wouldn't say "I'd like to see it change". Pretending that humans aren't animals, though, only seems like a species of wilful ignorance.

[el_bryanto]

24. we may be animals and subject to impulses beyond our control

But we can choose to act on those impulses or not (except those who suffer from mental illness). I think that's the point. I guess that's the story of Beauty and the Beast in this context - the Beast can't help being a Beast - and only becomes a man through the patience and suffering of a woman.

But in reality we can choose not to be beasts. Which you would probably agree with - it's a tricky question. We have impulses (and not just to rape) - animal impulses - and to deny that is willful blindness. But to pretend that our impulses are the whole story is equally blind, and probably more dangerous.

Bryant

[Spider Jerusalem]

26. And to some extent aspects of our culture celebrate those impulses.

What is organised sport but codified violence served up as spectacle? It might be simplistic to say that "football causes rape" but probably not so farfetched to say that creating an environment where young men are rewarded for aggressive behaviour, and treated as somehow not subject to the rules that govern lesser mortals who aren't good at running down a field or throwing a forward pass, where these young men's peccadilloes will be overlooked by coaches and police and reporters? Maybe that sort of thing leads to rape. But then it's a circular argument; it's more or less the nature vs nurture debate.

[seabeyond]

32. what is this animal instinct you talk about? rape? or sex? nt

[el_bryanto]

36. or murder or robbery

The ID - The Will - the part of us that knows no reason but what it desires.

Bryant

[seabeyond]

41. i do not see this as being mere animal. he was talking evolutionary behavioral psychology which i

suspected. this is being human. and the id, i get. and the id is not all that we are.

[el_bryanto]

44. That's my point and I suspect that's largely his point as well n/t

[seabeyond]

47. no. he sent me to a site with evolutionary biology. a cult today that infects our males with right

to dominate and control, just as religion did in the past and the fundamentalist do today. but this is the nonreligious male dominance in the name of science.

and the id is merely about instant gratification. that also includes touch and love.

[el_bryanto]

49. Evolutionary biology is a cult? Are you a creationist? n/t

[seabeyond]

52. no. i am talking about the people that take behaviors today and validate them... like rape,

with the beginning of time in story telling and guessing to say, see, this is who we are with absolutely NO scientific evidence or traditional methods.

[el_bryanto]

53. Validate them? By saying they have their origin in our animal natures?

How exactly does that validate them? Unless of course you argue "Some people just have to rape, it's their nature." I'm not sure anybody is arguing that

[bettyellen]

63. I have seen this validation here frequently. It's just a few "uncontrollable sociopaths" and there

is nothing to be done about them is a totally common belief among men around here. (same for gun violence)

I recall a few popular OPs that were completely dismissive to the idea that there's a cultural problem. And those were from "good guys".

[joelbny]

69. Evolutionary biology not a validation or an excuse, just a partial explanation

Yeah no one is trying to excuse rapists, at least I hope not. These kids need to spend some serious time behind bars.

But if 1 out of 3 women gets raped, who is doing all this raping? And why is so much of the massive quantity of internet porn out there so misogynistic and aggressive? For that matter, why do the masses pay so much money to watch movies that focus inordinately on violence and sex?

The idea that the capacity to rape or be violent seems to be in so many humans' nature is just a possibly falsifiable/verifiable hypothesis to explain the observed phenomena, not a normative statement of validation....

Hopefully civilization will stick around and humanity's instincts will progressively become more humane, and in the meantime, damn right people are expected to control themselves and be held responsible for their actions. No validation there....

[seabeyond]

90. post 89. scientists reject evo psych. nt

[seabeyond]

91. post 89. scientists reject evo psych. nt

[Tsiyu]

25. But we all do know

- those of us who are socialized - that when we are standing in line waiting for a cheeseburger, no matter how famished we are, we CANNOT go steal the french fries off a little kid's plate. Animals don't know this.

We all do know that we musn't piss under our desks at work. Animals don't necessarily know this.

We all do know that we musn't kill another human and move into their house. Animals don't know this.

If a human being in the year 2012 in America does not know that he cannot use his penis as a weapon, something is very wrong.

Blaming sick, sociopathic, violent behavior on our animal natures can excuse a lot of things - like the murder of 20 children.

But it doesn't fly no matter how it gets thrown up as an excuse or rationale. Why don't ALL men use their penises as weapons if you're all simply behoden to an animal nature?

And anyway, if it were true, then it would make the case for rape education even more solid. We train animals not to steal food or piss on the floor.

[Spider Jerusalem]

27. Except that whole "I can't do that" thing seems to be absent from sociopaths

which sort of invalidates your argument

[Tsiyu]

28. So then sociopaths are mutations

or are they merely animals?

You posit that the "animal nature" of all humans is the cause of gang rape.

Now you say it is sociopathy of the individual human.

Which is it?

[Spider Jerusalem]

31. You seem to assume that it isn't the other way around

look at human history; look at the casual acceptance of everyday brutality and violence in most human cultures not all that long ago in evolutionary terms, from Greece to Rome to medieval Europe up to the modern era. Maybe it's the lack of sociopathy or psychopathy that's the mutation.

[Tsiyu]

38. But then I believe we would be far more violent than we are

Your last sentence is something to ponder, but if we were so violently inclined, I believe we would not have any law at all.

I do believe that violent cultures in the past selected for violence - or for acquiescence to it - and that a propensity for violence exists in every one of us.

I also believe that humans who choose not to hurt others have that mindset mostly due to nurture, whether they realize it or not. Someone, somewhere, gave them the ability to see they should treat others as they wanted to be treated.

Additionally, an animal nature wouldn't tend to evolve in one lifetime.

There have been numerous people raised in racist homes, for example, who shed that belief system once on their own.

We had a poster here admit to date rape of passed out women, and suddenly he knows it's wrong.

Where did that sense of "wrongness" come from? Why did he not always live right?

The culture in America is one of sexual degradation of women. Degraded for being female, for having a vagina, for having too much sex or not enough sex, for being considered too ugly for sex...on and on and on. This is not inherent even in animals! They enjoy sexuality without shaming each other.

In my opinion, humans have chosen to treat other genders/races/religions/etc poorly and violently as a reason to feel good about themselves, and this is a human construct in my mind, not an animal trait.

[Spider Jerusalem]

43. Part of the reason for the relative but not absolute lack of violence...

is the expanded "tribal" circle. Most human violence is intra-group. Between one tribe and another. One city-state and another. One nation and another. As the circle of people we consider "like us" widens social violence decreases, as well as decreasing due to the proximate causes of violence (fights over territory and resources) being less relevant in the modern, developed world than in the relatively recent pre-industrial past. The idea that certain behaviours are wrong is more a result of living in a society that provides most of us with food, shelter, and leisure than of any change in human psychology; look at the ongoing civil wars and violence and widespread problems of mass rape and societal collapse in parts of sub-Saharan Africa.

[Tsiyu]

50. sub-Saharan Africa

has had most of its problems created by "colonizers,"
who by their very nature are violent murderers, thieves and rapists.

So violence has been modeled well there, and the guns they use are mostly not from Africa.

I live in one of the poorest places in America. The biggest killer is overdosing on pills. The nature of the poor I know is to help each other. As it is in most places where people are poor.

There is a small segment who think they can rob and assault their way to happiness, as there are in wealthy as well as poor communities.

But this does not explain why wealthy humans - who have no resource issues - rape.

And they do. The kids in Steubenville were not the destitute or the forlorn. They were the stars, the celebrities, the kids who had it all.

[bettyellen]

72. and that fits in with some men learning to view women as a different tribe due less respect

than their own. You see this attitude in the MRA groups.

I think every creepy, stalky or rapey guy I ever met has this idea of the "otherness" of women. They don't understand women or even seek to- it's part of the objectification thing.
Guys often don't get how creepy it is to be viewed as a prize, they often insist we should be honored. They totally don't get how screwed up it feels to be viewed like that.

[bettyellen]

67. "We train animals not to steal food or piss on the floor. " OMG, too true.....

Love this post.

[Tsiyu]

68. It seems the rape apologists have a dilemma

If it's an animal nature we must conquer, then training is the key, no?

But the same ones who claim "animal nature" made them do it, insist that classes are not the solution.

Obedience classes sure work for my pets

[joelbny]

70. who are the rape apologists?

Aside from anti-abortion, anti-sex-ed, evangelical fundamentalists, a disproportionate number of whom appear to be Republican Senatorial or Congressional candidates, I don't see a lot of rape apologists out there.

Proximal cause of rape is a human being committing a vicious and hurtful act, victimizing another human being, period.

Whether biologists seek to determine whether human ancestors who raped had an evolutionary advantage or not doesn't seem to me to be in any way a justification or validation of rapists. Science seeks to offer explanations for reality, regardless of our cultural sensibilities. The idea that we are descended from a common ancestor with lemurs and lizards offends many people, but that doesn't make it any less true.

[Tsiyu]

71. Seek and ye shall find

It's kind of like contemplating a new car, say a Honda Accord. Suddenly, you see them everywhere...

For rape victims, we hear the apologies constantly. "She was a slut, she dressed provocatively, she should have known better than to hang out with the football players."

"Men don't rape for control or power, they just get horny like animals and can't help themselves."

There are all sorts of excuses.

I am not refuting the "humans are animals meme" in that last post so much as I am indicating that, if this is so ( that we are beholden to primal urges ) then training, lessons and classes are in order to end the rape culture we live in today.

If people are dogs, we should be trained like we train dogs.

"No, Johnny. You cannot hump your neighbor."

If we're animals and all......

[joelbny]

75. yes actually if 1 in 3 women are raped....

I suppose we do have to count all the rapists and molesters as rape apologists, not to mention the enablers and those who cover-up.

I guess I was thinking more of people publicly defending rape, which I would hope is rare. Anyway this story is sad and disturbing and just one of thousands of unknown incidents. As a progressive I do like to think there is hope for humanity to outgrow its tendency to violence.

Also the ubiquity of hardcore internet pornography available to boys as they enter puberty can't help. Not that I am blaming porn for this, but so much of it is misogynistic and downright abusive of women, it's hard not to think that boys' exposure to internet porn would influence them somehow on their relations to women.

I guess the whole fifty-shades phenomenon confuses the porn issue. I was surprised how popular those books were among women (I haven't read them, just the kindle samples, which were a bit creepy). I had an ex who was into rough sex/being dominated, but I thought this was more of a niche kink thing, but apparently it's more mainstream. And I thought I was jaded and worldly!

Anyway I'm not equating 50-shades or misogynist porn to rape, but it does confuse the whole morality-of-pornography issue, which I would think has some relation to rape. But there are the pro-porn feminists and the anti-porn feminists I suppose, complicated area.

[Tsiyu]

76. Uh Oh

You've just said something bad about porn.

I am ducking lol

I defin itely think we need classes to explain to young men and women that hardcore porn does not usually portray real life relationships and sexuality.

Most women don't want to be humiliated and subjugated and pissed on. I do feel there is a lot of confusion, when grown men and women produce violent porn and kids have easy access to it. Kids without guidance can begin to believe that they should treat others the way the worst "artists" depict treating others.

We HAVE to start teaching our kids how to be sexual without feeling they all have to outdo the porn stars.

[joelbny]

78. about porn

I'm not anti-porn. It's not a black-and-white issue. I just think it's pretty obvious that some porn causes some harm.

Just an anecdote, but when I was 17 I was very into the NYC nightlife scene. I had a friend, a brilliant smart beautiful guy from the midwest who moved to NYC at age 15 and got into crystal meth, which was huge in the nightlife and sex scene here 10 years ago. (He was gay, obviously, I'm not, not that it matters).

Anyway he was very much pro-sex, and enjoyed being promiscuous. It was a very hedonistic scene. But he became an escort, started doing porn at 18 to pay the bills. He became disillusioned and depressed, eventually contracted HIV, got into heroin, and committed suicide or overdosed at age 23. Sad story.

[Tsiyu]

80. Sad story

Sorry about your friend

I have nothing against porn, but the twisted stuff in some hardcore porn is soul-killing IMO.

If you have to completely violate and degrade another human to get your rocks off, you gots a problem.

I'm not talking consensual stuff. I'm talking depictions of gang rape and other very violent actions, whether real or acted out.

I can't defend that shit. It makes the world a rotten place.

[seabeyond]

29. note, i am calling it bullshit, not talking about "defense". i am flat out calling this shit spewed

shit bullshit and the ONLY thing the men that use it accomplish is an EXCUSE for nasty behavior.

[Spider Jerusalem]

33. There's a difference between an explanation and an excuse

personally I find such behaviour personally abhorrent, and most of the casual crude misogyny and sexual objectification of women that occurs in Western cultures generally to be disturbing, unpleasant, and disgusting. But that doesn't mean that I can't step back and consider that there may in fact be deeper causes for it that aren't all the product of a specific culture but are to some extent inherent in human societies regardless of culture.

[seabeyond]

34. i am calling your explanation bullshit. what is this animal instinct you are talking about?

specifically.

rape?
sex?
spreading seed?

what exactly are you explaining.

[Spider Jerusalem]

37. I never said anything about "animal instinct"

I said "humans are animals"; not the same thing. And this may answer your question: http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/despicable-yes-but-not-inexplicable

[seabeyond]

40. this is what i thought you were referring to. evolutionary fuckin' behavioral science that has

become cult like for the men that rule with patriarchy. it is a scam for just another way for male domination. scientist call bullshit. but MRA love it. i have argued this crap we are feeding our boys today, which is one of the issues and why this is allowed and getting worse. this damn stupid ass fad. of male dominance and control. yea pop science.

[Spider Jerusalem]

45. You didn't actually bother to look at the review did you?

Helpful hint, it's not "pop science" because you disagree with its conclusions. And you can't pretend that our evolutionary heritage doesn't affect our behaviour, or that certain behaviours observed in evolutionarily-closely-related primate species can't possibly have anything at all to do with human behaviour.

[seabeyond]

51. i have repeatedly presented documentation where the scientific community rejects evolutionary

psychology. and if they did not take todays behavior and make it work to validate male dominance with guesses and story telling at the beginning of time, then maybe we could look at evolutionary behavior. that is not what we do.

and science is all over stating the ineptness in evolutionary psychology today.

ya, women like pink cause.... bullshit.

it is the MRA and the non religious mans way of having dominance and control in the name of science, instead of religion.

[Spider Jerusalem]

54. You have? I haven't seen it

and, what scientific community? Please define "the scientific community". Social sciences are not "science". And current opinion is considerably split on the degree of evolutionarily adaptive behaviour presented by primate species including humans. (NB that the book I linked to isn't "validating male dominance"; one section specifically deals with the lone exception to the pattern of male sexual coercion among primates--the bonobos--with the conclusion that strong female alliances are responsible for the lack of such male aggression among bonobos and may form the key to an understanding of bonobo society and social use of sexuality. Which may suggest some adaptive strategy for limiting such behaviour among humans.)

[gollygee]

39. No, it is not natural for men to gang rape women

It is neither an explanation nor an excuse.

[Rex]

87. +1

Sad to watch DUers make this place suck more by enabling stupid arguments like the 'humans are dumb beasts' canard.

[ismnotwasm]

48. The end of patriarchy

Would be a huge step.

Animals don't reason the way humans so. It's a false analogy.

[redqueen]

55. Oh, it can be changed, and it will be.

We have seen a great deal of change already.

We have seen a lot of regression over the last 40 years, but it looks like we may finally be ready to get back on course.

[Rex]

86. Plus the 'dumb beast' argument doesn't hold water.

Maybe it did 50,000 years ago. Many want there to be a 'golden ticket' for rape (why that is, is their own agenda) and there is none. It is a CHOICE.

[Rex]

85. That is not really true.

Humans can control their actions by using common sense, not so with the rest of the animal kingdom. Humans have all kind of factors involved in their decision making process and to rape someone is one of them. I know you and many others would like the 'dumb beast' argument to work - but it does not.

People make choices...please don't enable their behavior with quasi-science guesswork.

[Spider Jerusalem]

88. Except that isn't true at all

neuroscience has found all sorts of explanations for various other behaviours; sociopaths for instance display common deficits in frontal lobe function, paedophiles display common neurological differences, the more science finds out about the role of brain function in behaviour the less room there is for free will in many areas.

[seabeyond]

89. Does evolutionary psychology have any problems?

Yes. Here are what I see as a few of the major problems currently faced by evolutionary psychology:

1. Evolutionary psychology is attempting to elucidate the functional organization of the brain even though researchers currently cannot, with very few exceptions, directly study complex neural circuits. This is like attempting to discover the functions of the lungs, heart, etc., without being able to conduct dissections. Although psychological evidence indisputably reveals that cognition has structure, it is less clear that it does so with sufficient resolution to provide convincing evidence of functional design. Can the current state of the art in cognitive psychology successfully cleave human nature at its joints? Maybe, maybe not. Despite these reservations, it is worth noting that virtually every research university in the world has a psychology department. Grounding psychology in an explicit framework of evolved function cannot help but improve attempts to unveil the workings of the brain. It is far easier to find something if you have some idea of what it is you are looking for.

2. The domains of cognition proposed by evolutionary psychologists are often pretty ad hoc. Traditionally, cognitive psychologists have assumed that cognitive abilities are relatively abstract: categorization, signal detection, recognition, memory, logic, inference, etc. Evolutionary psychology proposes a radically orthogonal set of 'ecologically valid' domains and reasoning abilities: predator detection, toxin avoidance, incest avoidance, mate selection, mating strategies, social exchange, and so on. These latter domains and abilities are derived largely from behavioral ecology. Although mate selection surely involves computations that are fundamentally different from predator detection, it is not so clear that the organization of the brain just happens to match the theoretical divisions of behavioral ecology. The concept of 'object' is obviously quite abstract, yet it is equally obvious that it is an essential concept for reasoning about mates, predators, kin, etc. The same goes for other 'abstract' abilities like categorization and signal detection. Ecologically valid reasoning about domains such as kinship may require cognitive abilities organized at higher levels of abstraction like 'recognition.' On the other hand, numerous experiments show that reasoning can be greatly facilitated when problems are stated in ecologically valid terms. Negating if-p-then-q statements becomes transparently easy when the content of such statements involves social exchange, for example. The theoretical integration of more abstract, informationally valid domains with less abstract, ecologically valid domains remains a central problem for evolutionary psychology.

3. Evolutionary psychology (and adaptationism in general) has devoted considerable theoretical attention to the issue of design, the first link in the causal chain leading from phenotype structure to reproductive outcome, but has lumped every other link into the category 'reproductive problem.' This failure to theorize about successive links can lead to spectacular failures of the 'design' approach. Three examples: 1) evidence of design clearly identifies bipedalism as an adaptation, but what 'problem' it solved is not at all obvious, nor does the 'evidence of design' philosophy provide much guidance (though more detailed functional analyses of bipedalism are further constraining the set of possible solutions). 2) Language shows clear evidence of design, and there are several plausible reproductive advantages to having language, so why don't many other animals have language? 3) It can be very difficult to determine whether simple traits are adaptations simply because there is insufficient evidence of design. Menopause may be an adaptation, but it has too few 'features' to say based on evidence of design alone (some 'features' of menopause, like bone loss, seem to indicate that it is not an adaptation). Very simple traits will not always yield to a 'design analysis,' simply because there isn't enough to grab onto.

4. Evolutionary psychology is founded on a model of ancestral human reproductive ecology (the EEA), yet the current version of this model is woefully out of date. Life history theory, the sub-discipline of biology devoted to understanding the fundamental aspects of the reproductive ecologies of plant and animals, has made enormous strides in the last decade or so. Little of this work has entered the 'mainstream' of human evolutionary psychology. Part of the problem is that the units of analysis for life history theorists (e.g., body size, mortality rates, taxonomic categories) are quite different than those used by adaptationists (e.g., strategies, design elements). Yet life history arguments are central to much work in evolutionary psychology (e.g., parental investment). Evolutionary psychologists need to get up to speed on the current state of the art in life history theory.

Hunter-gatherer theory is a related issue. Evolutionary psychology uses an odd mix of Kalahari and tropical Amazonian ethnography for its basic model of the EEA. Although much (if not most) work by evolutionary psychologists relies on indisputable features of the EEA such as women got pregnant and men didn't, it is time for evolutionary psychology to start talking more seriously with archaeologists and paleoanthropologists. We know a lot more about the past than we did even 10 years ago, and some of what we thought we knew has now been called into question.

5. Convergent evolution vs. phylogenetic inertia. In contrast to early approaches to the evolution of human behavior that emphasized chimp or gorilla models, evolutionary psychology relies heavily on convergent evolution type arguments. The emphasis is on functional design, with little attention paid to traits derived by descent from recent and not-so-recent ancestors. Birds are as likely to be used as models as are baboons or bonobos. Functional arguments also typically pay little attention to phylogenetic constraints. Although it is not exactly clear what kinds of constraints human ancestry might place on human cognition, it surely places some. A synthesis of primate cognitive ethology and human evolutionary psychology that takes into account both the convergent evolution of similar psychologies in response to similar ecological problems, as well as phylogenetic history, has significant potential (as most primatologists would argue, I think).

6. Finally, even the best work in evolutionary psychology remains incomplete. Two examples: 1) evolutionary psychologists have made several predictions about mate preferences, and these predictions have been verified in a broad range of cross-cultural contexts. However, the empirical data have not been subjected to many alternative interpretations. It is possible that they can be accounted for by other theories, and it will be difficult to be fully convinced that the evolutionary interpretation is correct until it withstands challenges from competing paradigms. The record on this account, however, is quite good so far. Competing theories such as the "social role", "structural powerlessness" and "economic inequality of the sexes" hypotheses have been tested in a number of studies and have received little, if any, support. 2) The cheater detection hypothesis, on the other hand, has withstood a blizzard of competing hypotheses, but it has been confirmed in only a very limited number of cross-cultural contexts: Europe, and one Amazonian group. Adaptations must be universal, and the variation seen in even the limited cross-cultural cheater detection studies suggests that further studies are warranted.

http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/projects/human/epfaq/problems.html


here is just one scientist telling why evo psych fails. there are many many more REAL scientists explain why this fails. it is an easy search. or keep spouting male dominant and control garbage as fact. which is only story telling and guesses.

[Rex]

92. Yes but we are talking about normal human beings.

You've already identified people that you are talking about that have mental issues (sociopaths). So your premise is somewhat disingenuous.

Normal people that have common sense do not rape, unless you can contradict that statement. Which I doubt you can.

[Egalitarian Thug]

35. K&R No matter how low a man is, he is still master of his wife.

It is an old and disgusting cultural ubiquity. We can change it, but we have to want to change it, first.

[seabeyond]

42. yes. nt.

[redqueen]

58. Thank you!

THAT is the reward the patriarchy offers to those who volunteer to maintain the heirarchy of power.

[Egalitarian Thug]

93. You're very welcomed. I just wish there were some way to get more people to see

how all of this works. I can't help but feel that if they did, they would force the changes we so desperately need.

[redqueen]

96. I don't know if there's any way to force it.

I think we just have to keep talking about it so that more and more people see it.

[Raksha]

94. Thank you for stating the obvious. It always seems to hide in plain sight. n/t

[ismnotwasm]

46. k&R

[marions ghost]

66. Some men refuse to see forced sex as rape

"Rapists Who Don’t Think They’re Rapists"

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2009/11/12/rapists-who-dont-think-theyre-rapists/

[redqueen]

73. I love rhe way she summarized that part of the wonderful yes means yes blog...

People who excuse rapists usually see that equation from the other end: "He's my friend, so he can't be a rapist." We need to reverse that equation—"He's a rapist, so he can't be my friend." Perhaps them we could begin addressing why the dictionary definition of rape is overlooked—threatening, forcing, and incapacitating for sex—in our to avoid applying the word —"rapist"—to anyone we know.

Thanks so much for posting that.

[marions ghost]

74. The world would be very different if we shunned (& punished) rapists, she concludes:

"The vast majority of the offenses are being committed by a relatively small group of men, somewhere between 4% and 8% of the population, who do it again … and again … and again. That just doesn’t square with the notion of innocent mistake.

Further, since the repeaters are also responsible for a hugely disproportionate share of the intimate partner violence, child beating and child sexual abuse, the notion that these predators are somehow confused good guys does not square with the data. Most of the raping is done by guys who like to rape, and to abuse, assault and violate. If we could get the one-in-twelve or one-in-25 repeat rapists out of the population (that is a lot of men — perhaps six or twelve million men in the U.S. alone) or find a way to stop them from hurting others, most sexual assault, and a lot of intimate partner violence and child abuse, would go away. Really."

-------------

[redqueen]

77. The tie in with domestic violence is another issue.

There's an effort underway to portray victims of domestic violence as also being responsible for the crimes committed against them.

[yardwork]

79. Domestic violence seems to be at the heart of the Steubenville, Ohio gang rape.

According to tweets made by the former boyfriend himself, he was furious with the sixteen year old victim for breaking up with him. He planned for her to be drugged, kidnapped, and gang raped by his buddies. Then he celebrated his revenge.

If this is true - and the perpetrator's own tweets are the evidence of its truth - then this was another case of domestic violence in which an abuser attacked his victim because she left him.

[riderinthestorm]

83. Micheal Nodianos the young man in the Ohio State tee shirt in that heinous video, goes to Ohio State

and there's currently a wide effort to try to "out" him there, perhaps even revoke his scholarship.

He's a predator for sure and he's now been unleashed on a university campus. He deserves to be publicly shamed for his comments and the actions he brags about committing on that tape. I'll be really interested in how Ohio State handles his case. The women (and yes, I have no doubt he'd be equally as vicious with a male who he was trying to kill "dead&quot on that campus aren't safe with him there.

[smirkymonkey]

98. I hope he ends up scrubbing toilets at a fast food restaurant.

The little shit doesn't deserve to be at University or to ever have a decent life again.

[riderinthestorm]

81. Yup. Just had it happen (again) to me, not an hour ago on another thread

DUer said we shouldn't be talking about the Steubenville case because we only know sensationalized bits (a common conversational technique to stop discussion when it comes to rape - that those who are conversing are simply gossip mongers without facts).

Also that since (two out of many) the participants were "children" (16 years old at least, with more than a few already 18 years old) that we shouldn't be discussing the case (another common technique used to shut down rape discussions - trying to "shame" those who talk about it).

When I called them out on it, I got called a jackass, an asshole and told to fuck off.

It happens all the time. Daily even here.

Great thread redqueen. Thanks for the OP.

Huge K and R.

[smirkymonkey]

82. K&R, Great Thread.

Thank you, Red Queen.

[riderinthestorm]

84. Weekend kick nt

[Raksha]

95. K & R