I want people who might actually be guilty to be indicted and put on trial.
It's clear from Hubris that Powell and the state department were not in on what was going on in the defense and national security wings of the White House. That only confirms what is said about the administration in various other books. That there was a split between Rice, Rumsfeld and Cheney on one side and Powell on the other.
I want the people really responsible to face war crimes trials. Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Feith, Rice, Tenet, and that group. The people that knew they were presenting a false intelligence picture.
like Powell and Daschle, and others that knew better yet let those evil people run us into Iraq to kill a million people are also culpable.
I dont buy it that Powell was so naive that he believe the bullcrap that Bush and Cheney were spewing.
There will always be evil among us. But we have to rely on those we elect to represent us to protect us from the evil. In this case they failed us and IMO have blood on their hands.
going on. The other side of that is, they suspected something might NOT be going on too. As Rachel pointed out, the Bush/Cheney/Rice/Tenet/Rumsfeld etc. cabal faked intelligence that they submitted to various folks including Powell, the NY Times, and the congress.
That faked intel is completely exculpatory for those folks IMHO and any jury would see it that way too. You cannot vote to convict beyond a reasonable doubt with that out there.
You cannot claim that you didn't know when it was your job to know such things. Bush, Cheney, and the top dogs should get what they gave Saddam--the death penalty. How many deaths did they cause again? Don't forget the lawyers--John Yoo and Jay Bybee, who is a sitting judge. This is another example of American "exceptionalism"--people like this don't EVER get punished for anything. No wonder Bush is lying low. He knows he's guilty and he's a coward. May you all get what you gave.
It's not state department's job to know whether the other parts of the executive branch are lying to them. If it were, state would have its own intelligence operatives, etc.
I find the idea that Powell and his folks didn't know completely consistent with every book I have read about the Bush admin. Powell was not part of the "in crowd" and there was pretty open hostility between him and state and the other parts of the admin.
about the anthrax letters and killings. I have no idea what really happened, but I don't think that the man who was accused and committed suicide acted alone. Maybe he didn't do it at all.
affirmed. He was a "good soldier" and dared not disobey his commanders. He should have quit.
waste everyone's time.
and reading books on this. That's for a grand jury and then, possibly, a judge and jury to decide.
Thousands died. A Secretary of State who makes a speech like he made based on sheer lies? I don't think you can determine that he is not criminally responsible so easily. He may not be, but I think a grand jury should be called.
It was at the least a failure to defend the Constitution, to protect the division of authority in that Congress was not properly informed of all the facts. All involved including Colin Powell should face some sort of penalties for that.
Think how the Republicans castigated Susan Rice for the fact that she was misinformed about the events in Benghazi. Diplomatic personnel are responsible for knowing the truth about those things within their responsibility.
Colin Powell is responsible for his failure to insist on knowing all the facts and on his failure to check the facts with regard to what he stated before the UN. And the Hubris documentary points out that he complained about some of the incorrect facts. Clearly he was not fired for doing that. He had the obligation to our country to inquire about any doubts he had. He had the obligation to refuse to give his speech.
Each one of us bears responsibility of that kind. He is and was no different from the rest of us.
Assuming we get a prosecutor willing to prosecute at least some members of the administration. They are not going to waste their time with Powell because of the exculpatory evidence out there.
And this is not within Powell's responsibility. He is not on the intel side or the defense or national security side of the administration. You are right to point out what Republicans did with Rice. It was complete bullshit that should never have happened.
AFAIK the defendant does not have to prove anything.
There are reams of evidence that Powell was handed BS intel and that he was on the outside looking in to most of the Bush admin's dealings. Virtually every book written about the administration says so.
I spent OIF3 (that's all of 2005 in NY Times speak or a couple of Friedman units) in Abu Ghraib prison with MP's, artillery units and others. I signed the line, I did the time and I damned sure wasn't going to fight my deployment knowing that another would be in my place. Nonetheless I, and several with my unit, was against the war from the get-go. As time went on, others stopped calling me that commie-kissin' librul (it was all fine and if you weren't in a unit you won't understand) and started long discussions on why I thought that George, Dick, Condi, Donnie, and Powell plus others were war criminals. By the end of our deployment, many were disgusted by the bullshit they'd been fed - the Christian riteousness of the Army, the Fox News crap on TV, and the keeping America safe crap. At least 75% of the detainees we held were innocent (actual number is higher) and yet we continued to keep them in harm's way in violation of the Geneva Conventions. Letters to Hillary and Chuck Schumer were to no avail. And the toll on Iraq and the people cannot be described properly.
Too many officers make their way up the chain by kissing butt and burying info from the public. Such is the case with CP. Was he duped? Probably. Should he have known better considering the idiocy he was surrounded by? Absofuckinlutely! Give him a pass - Hell no. Generals Shalikashvili, Clark and Zinni all smelled a rat. The first two were shown the door and Wes was already retired. Anybody remember the late Colonel Hackworth? He used to rail on Fox news that this war was BS. As for Mr. Magoo from AZ, anybody who's been to war and still wants more is crazy beyond a doubt. I think we should bomb Iran with X-boxes, I-pads, and flat screen TV's. Better to make friends than enemies.
Please don't bother with the "thank yous" and "sorry" crap because I really really don't give a shit at this point.
Retired Sergeant and
LSA Shadow Mayor
The people who should be sent to prison for war crimes are those who knew the intelligence wasn't there and intentionally messed with the intelligence and sent that out to other folks to get them to agree to go to war.
That list does not include Powell.
But how did the CIA burst into his office right after he told Wilkerson he was going to take out the BS part of the script? As a Viet Nam vet in I-Corps, he new that interrogation with torture was never clear or reliable. CP caved, or let himself believe that the info Tennet was feeding him was pure. Put him on trial for gross incompetence. Hell even Wilkson admits it was a hoax, why can't Powell? No real mea culpa, just the usual "darkest moment of my life" tripe espoused by careerists. How about shaving his head and making him beg like a mendicant in the squares of Baghdad asking the Iraqi people for forgiveness?
I just think he walks away waaay to clean here, and the fact that Wilkerson is a trusted voice on MSNBC gives him leeway he might not deserve. And I think that in many ways, Powell was one of our "better" generals, it's just that too many of them are horrible - horrible leaders, horrible thinkers, and morally bereft.
The Shadow Mayor
I'm guessing that Powell was sending drafts of the presentation to Bush's Chief of Staff for review and that is what prompted the visit by Tenet and co.
Other books, like Woodwards' books, talk about arguments within the Bush admin about enhanced interrogation and say that Powell argued against it, but he was not one of idiot-boy's favorites like Cheney and Rumsfeld and that crew so he was ignored.
Last edited Tue Feb 19, 2013, 12:58 AM - Edit history (1)
...after all he was purposefully blind to his masters doings in Iraq and in Vietnam! Let's name forget that although Powell's attempt to cover up the My Lai massacre was unsuccessful, he had at least proven his willingness to do what was necessary to please his bosses. Later, as we would see this would prove to be most useful.
However you do not know what evidence there may be.
A grand jury would be the best way to decide if he should stand trial.
Perhaps an 'unknown known'...
"...In the wake of WMD-liar Curveball's videotaped confession, Colin Powell is demanding to know why nobody warned him about Curveball's unreliability. The trouble is, they did..."
demanding more war after have the experience is insane, but Magoo sat out the war for the most part.
We had discussions about why we were in Vietnam. Most agreed it was a hoax, especially after being there a couple of weeks.
The thank you for your service is usually just a guilty reaction. And when I'm at a sporting event and the yahoos in the crowd start the USA chant it gives me the creeps.
There's something untoward about equating war to a sporting event.
I still have occasion to run into a veteran who wants to go back and "finish the job." For some, the brain washing is permanent.
Hunting for people who are hunting for you is a concept most will fortunately not have to face.
There's nothing more serious than sending your country to war. Doing it deliberately under false pretenses and for profit is a war crime, and those who do it have a special place in the Ninth Ring of Dante's Ninth Circle.
So true. That's why Wikileaks and whistleblowers are so important. Our government hides its dirty, very, very dirty laundry. From whom? From us.
The notion catapulted by some that Colin Powell was kept out of the loop is pure nonsense. He still blames the intelligence community for the failure, just like the rest of them. He isn't stupid, he's complicit.
Considering the crimes they perpetrated on them and their brethren.
IMHO, he is a cold blooded killer. Over 4,000 dead American soldiers and an untold number of innocent Iraqi's killed to advance his evil agenda. Control of Iraq's oil and huge profits for Haliburton do not justify all those deaths. He is a murderer.
Just like this last week when I heard the pope was quitting, I thought... "he's trying to distance his being thrown in the slammer for propping up pedophiles..."
Not afraid to call anyone out on their wrong doing... Cheney first!
and the same for war crimes. Maybe after the airing of this documentary, some attorney general in one of our states will step forward and file.
Regardless of the horrendous damage Bush has inflicted upon Iraq and this country, George W. Bush is planning to walk away from the greatest crime ever committed by an American President. He took this country to war under false pretenses. He lied to the Congress and the rest of the American people in order to start his war with Iraq. How can we let this happen? Is there anything we can do about it? Vincent Bugliosi has come up with a remarkable solution in his latest book, The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder. After reading the book it becomes obvious that impeachment, even if it was "on the table," was not justice.
"Bugliosi meticulously lays out a case against George W. Bush for purposefully deceiving the United States into war, thereby causing over 4,000 U.S. soldier deaths and 100,000-plus civilian Iraqi deaths and counting." "Bugliosi is in a good position as a former prosecutor to ask--on behalf of millions of people--why should someone who accidentally kills a person in a liquor store holdup be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, yet someone who creates death and destruction on an unimaginable scale sail off into the sunset and have a library named after them? Is U.S. law based on justice, or whim?"
From the The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder website:
"A searing indictment of the President and his administration, The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder also outlines a legally credible pathway to holding our highest government officials accountable for their actions, thereby creating a framework for future occupants of the oval office." Any state attorney, and many county-level district attorneys, can prosecute George W. Bush for murder and conspiracy to commit murder. To establish jurisdiction for murder, a U.S. soldier who died in Iraq would have to be from that state, or from that local county. And every U.S. state has lost at least one resident to the war in Iraq. We couldn't do anything about George Bush while he was in office. But now some brave prosecutor in this country, armed with the information in Mr. Bugliosi's book, can bring this war-criminal to trial.
I think everyone here is thinking for themselves, and expressing themselves accordingly.
a priority. Millions of Iraqi refugees, hundreds of thousands dead, near the entire population ailing and hungry, sectarian violence, torture, and on and on, and the hell on earth that we created... land and water poisoned, infrastructure crippled... barely gets noticed anymore. Thousands of U.S. troops dead, many more ailing and committing suicide... keerikits.
We learned a lesson from Viet Nam. We don't actually have to win. We can just destroy a country, declare victory, get our troops the hell out with patriotic fanfare, then ally ourselves with whatever sham "democratic" despot that will allow us exploit their country for their human and natural resources.
"We learned a lesson from Viet Nam. We don't actually have to win. We can just destroy a country, declare victory, get our troops the hell out with patriotic fanfare, then ally ourselves with whatever sham "democratic" despot that will allow us exploit their country for their human and natural resources."
...I doubt anyone declared "victory" in Iraq. In fact, the entire point of tonight's program was to document the hubris and lies that led to the illegal war.
Oh and by the way, Exxon recently hired Obama's former U.S. Ambassador to Iraq, James Jeffery, as a consultant to negotiate contracts.
According to Reuters, it was unclear whether James Jeffrey was hired specifically to handle the dilemma and its fallout, but industry sources and diplomats said it was likely to work in the central governments favour.
He probably has better relations in Baghdad than in Arbil, said a former U.S. diplomat on condition of anonymity.
Nobody will be brought up on war crimes.
Since waterboarding is not torture according to Cheney!
as they are all wanted on warrants for war crimes in several countries. And many countries have extradition treaties with the countries with pending charges.
...being unable to leave the country would be the least of their worries. They should be behind bars in THIS country.
in absentia by a Kuala Lumpur (Malaysian) War Crimes Commission. But when Bush went to Canada a few months ago, the Canadian government did nothing. But this is why Kuala Lumpur says:
We have no plan to arrest them. They will be haunted all their lives by the fact that they're war criminals who have murdered countless people and affected countless lives through their acts and policy while in office. Their lives will be unsettling, full of regret and the feeling of guilt, punctuated with long stretches of sorrow and unabated sadness. They will die with disgruntled souls.
but he had Stephen Harper and his cohorts running interference for him there. Birds of a feather.... BushCo should reap what they sowed.
following administration, when it continued the bu$h administration's war policies?
Or do they not count because of the (D)'s by their names? Be careful of what you wish for.
is in hopes that future administrations will also 'look forward.'
We're a nation of laws - one set of laws for the elite & another set of laws for the proles.
that the right wing manure spreading machine has NOT thrown Cheney under the bus, in fact they consider him an expert on everything that is wrong with the current administration. Case in point: Hannity had him on his radio show yesterday, and you could almost hear the slobber as Hannity grovelled and kissed Cheney's, let's say, boots.
for various reasons, but these guys are the closest to deserving such. They are guilty of sending thousands to their deaths, or what may have been worse, mutilated and robbed of the lives they had before them.
Now this is all in addition to war crimes on record that Cheney has admitted to. I would really love to see them all caught and taken to the World Criminal Court, found guilty, and placed into solitary until they died.
The last thing said on the documentary was Bush saying he still says he didn't do anything wrong. And that is the basis of the whole sorry mess.
Thank you to Dennis Kucinich who at least tried to impeach him.
No thanks to Nancy Pelosi and her minions who made sure that no vote would be taken.
for giving Bush a pass, I fault Obama infinitely more not only ignoring but protecting the Bush administration's criminality. That extends this stain to his own administration.
She earlier obstructed the impeachment of Bush after the return of the control of Congress in 2006: "Impeachment is off the table."
No one is going to try Cheney. Cheney has de facto immunity.
He won't be because he has de facto protection from friends in high places or other persons in high places who have a history of protecting him.
Pointing out that that there are persons in high places who have protected him is not mutually exclusive with the idea that he should be tried as a war criminal.
It's bringing back so many memories, mostly facts I learned on DU, and I can feel that anger rising all over again...
Why are y'all getting so worked up? You know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that it just ain't gonna happen. No court in the world, let alone the USA is going to indict a former President, Vice President, or anyone else over this.
Come on, we still have Guantanamo sitting there with people we know are innocent and it is OK, hunkey-dory, right you are, with most of the population and especially the SCOTUS. Look at our government. It doesn't matter who we elect, they go right on doing the bidding of their masters - and I don't mean the voters. Anyone with the ability and interest to read knew that Saddam didn't have WMDs and that there was absolutely no reason to go to war. But we went anyway because it would be profitable. So why do you think that anything is going to change now?
Who watched Hubris? It was preaching to the choir. We already knew that Bush and Cheney were liars, so who do you think is going to get all in an uproar? The MSM? Why? They knew back then and didn't do anything about it because the big money that owns the MSM didn't want the lies exposed.
So quit wasting your energy arguing over whether Colin Powell should be indicted along with Bush and Cheney, because none of them are going to ever be held accountable for anything.
They should have been perp walked to a nearby DC jail and held there until there was a trial date. Imopentoit.com
have already been CONVICTED of war crimes,
but that was in a tribunal in Malaysia or somewhere
so most people don't really consider it ligit.
Being the propaganda arm of war criminals is a crime in and of itself. They are an accomplice.
Perhaps the DU could start a petition which could be sent to the White House and Senate and House which would make a moral state-
ment that there are many Americans that firmly believe that President Bush, Vice-President Chaney and many of the Administration are guilty of crimes against humanity and were aided and abetted by many former and current members of Congress. As I know the power elite protect each other.
Colin Powell showed his true colors. I thought he was a hero. Now I think he was a coward. Shame on him. He could have set the country straight.
But he had to play the "good soldier" instead.
I don't like to blame people, but what a crew.
President Obama doesn't think Cheney's a war criminal, otherwise he would have done something by now.
No prosecutions equals no crimes.
Stop being emotional and start being rational for a change.
There are people who want Obama prosecuted. They consider the drone strikes as being war crimes. To make sure that a precedent is not set with Bush & Co., Obama has to protect them to protect himself. Nothing is going to happen.