Sinn Fein wants referendum on united Ireland

[xchrom]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/01/30/uk-irish-referendum-idUKTRE80T11T20120130

(Reuters) - Northern Ireland should hold a referendum, possibly as early as 2016, on whether it wants to remain British or become part of a united Ireland, Sinn Fein, the main pro-Irish nationalist party in the province, said on Monday.

The British government in London, which is already facing calls to allow a referendum in 2014 on ending Scotland's 300-year union with England, has the final say on whether a referendum on the future of Northern Ireland can be held.

Martin McGuinness, Sinn Fein's leader in Northern Ireland, said he would like to see a referendum held after the next election for Northern Ireland's assembly, which is likely to happen either in 2015 or 2016.

"It could take place anytime between 2016 and 2020/21," McGuinness, and a former commander with the Irish Republican Army (IRA) guerrilla group, told the Irish Examiner newspaper about a possible referendum. "I don't see any reason whatsoever why that should not be considered."

[MadHound]

1. Good, and good timing

I think that the population has come to the point where they will want a United Ireland. Of course the question then becomes what will the British do is the referendum passes? I doubt that England will let one of its last colonies go quietly.

[muriel_volestrangler]

3. Poll last year: 73% for staying in UK, including 52% of Catholics

http://www.thejournal.ie/waning-support-for-united-ireland-among-northern-catholics-157651-Jun2011/

There's a long way to go before the referendum could pass.

[zipplewrath]

8. That's what I've always heard

The support the IRA enjoyed wasn't based upon reunification. It was based upon the treatment of catholics by the ruling class. The European Economic Community has resulted in the defense of individual rights in Northern Ireland and at this point the Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland enjoy the access to a British Passport.

If anything, I could imagine a rise of a desire to unify english speaking areas of Europe into a single entity, not the continued devolving.

[TheWraith]

15. The conflicts in Ireland have always been heavily tied to religion, unfortunately.

Not just England being officially Protestant and Ireland being predominantly Catholic, but with support for independence in Ireland heavily breaking along those lines. The Protestant northern populations in Ireland didn't want to get stomped on by an officially Catholic independent government, which led to them mostly supporting unionism and England in the war of independence. With the independence movement being almost exclusively Catholic, that tended to foster an attitude that all Protestants were, if not outright traitors to Ireland, then automatically suspect of being the enemy.

Part of the problem up until now has been that these events were relatively recent. Aside from a relative handful of examples, you can't find many Americans who know what their ancestors were doing in the American Civil War, but you can go and find people in Ireland who can tell about having a grandparent who fought in the war of independence.

[mwooldri]

9. While I don't speak for England...

I can tell you that I believe that the majority of English-folk wouldn't care if Northern Ireland decided to join with the Republic. It's up to the people of Northern Ireland to decide, and given the way things are right now there's no stomach for a united Ireland within the majority of the NI population. Sure Mr. McGuinness can ask for a referendum, and I see no harm in putting the issue up for a vote.

If Scotland goes independent it may hasten progress to a united Ireland. England and Wales alone are not Great Britain - you have to have all three nations for Great Britain. People in Northern Ireland identify themselves as British or Irish. If Scotland goes, then Britain in essence goes away too - and the NI British will have to find some form of new identity as Great Britain would be defunct.

[MichaelMcGuire]

12. I take interest in your thinking that Britain "goes away"

Even with Scotland gaining independence, the British Isles will still be the British Isles...
As for Identifying as British is geographically correct.. I'm just as European whether in or out off the EU the same rule applies.

Interesting piece on this topic by SNP MP Pete Wishart

"Firstly, I suppose Britishness is as much about geography as it is about identity and history. Coming from Perth in the northern part of the island of Greater Britain I am as much British as someone from Stockholm is Scandinavian."

http://www.betternation.org/2011/07/pete-wishart-mp-proud-to-be-british-in-an-independent-scotland/

[mwooldri]

22. I'm speaking Britain in a legal/political sense.

The 1707 Acts of Union created the term "United Kingdom of Great Britain". With Scottish independence, there would not be a United Kingdom any more in the legal/political sense. There would be Scottish citizenship. What legal citizenship name could be given to a citizen of present day UK without Scotland in it?

I suppose that in a legal and political sense England, Wales and Northern Ireland could continue as the "Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland", shortened to "Britain"... but ultimately I foresee that when Scotland gains independence, the present day UK would end up devolving into the four nations - England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland... doing a Yugoslavia except without the wars and not as quickly.

Mr. Wishart makes some interesting points. Though if being British is all about geography, then I'm already American as Barack Obama. Yes, I agree with him that a number of present day British institutions can carry on across borders.

Thanks, Mark.

[MichaelMcGuire]

23. That's clearer

The present state came to be from 1927 "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" before that it was "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" (1800) and earlier it was "United kingdom of Great Britain" (1707) the state has changed throughout. I'd add my understanding of what Great Britain means is that it is the larger of the two main Islands the smaller being the Island of Ireland both within the British Isles.

Citizenship could easily offer dual, Scottish, British.

Why not the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland or just Britain and Northern Ireland? You could argue the continued use of 'Great Britain' as England is a Kingdom within the Island of Great Britain.

A federal England, N Ireland and Wales would be a positive relationship. And with Scotland a continued union of the Crown, and Social Union long after the end of the political Union... Don't worry Mark you'll always have a friend in Scotland.


Michael

[MichaelMcGuire]

2. International law

covers peoples right to self-determination
the thought that you'd need permission is false

two examples

Montenegro didn't ask Serbia
and
Estonia from Soviet Union

[Nye Bevan]

5. So if the people of Texas decided that they wanted to be a separate country,

that would be just fine and dandy?

[MichaelMcGuire]

6. Yes

Article 1 "All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/ccpr.htm

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. You might want to send that quote to the Malvenaras in the the Argentine government

[MichaelMcGuire]

11. You mean to the Argentine Govt? or to Malvenaras

I think it applies to everyone so why not

[H2O Man]

19. Or to the 13 Colonies.

Maybe they still belong to England, according to some of our friends here.

[MichaelMcGuire]

21. You mean this lot?

T'Good, T'Bad and T'Ugly...

[JackRiddler]

14. Oh god yes. Long as they don't attack the Union, like last time.

[MichaelMcGuire]

16. Folks confuse

self-determination with meaning Independence...

[karynnj]

17. With me personly, yes - with the US government, alas - that's what we fought the civil war over

With no negative feelings towards people here from the South, I really wonder if we might be better off had we graciously allowed the south to secede. I think that there likely would have been a later reconciliation if people in the two parts saw that there were benefits of being one big country. If not, I suspect that both parts, not competing to control the ideology of a shared company, would find things to like or admire in the other.

It is hard to picture what each of the two pieces would have become. Both are pretty diverse in the cultures that formed them, separated the two halves might have become more different from each other than they now are. I can imagine that the South might have even more Hispanic influence than it does now. With the wealth of lovely, warm places, it could have become a top vacation destination of the people from the North.

As to slavery, there are people who think it was on the way out as soon as the cotton gin was invented. Had the South seceded, the question is what it would have done with freeing its own slaves. Given the way the full US treated the native Americans, I would suspect that they might have attempted to move unwanted slaves to the west. Would they have wanted to immigrate to the more industrialized North? If they didn't, the cultures of NYC and Chicago would be nowhere near as interesting as they are.

While it is true that with a US split into two, it is possible that neither part would be as overwhelmingly powerful internationally, I am not sure that that would be all that bad. After all, it would be easier to have a federation of the 2 parts, than it was to create the EU.

[Loudmxr]

4. It would be my parent's dream.

And mine too.

There is one thing that I have learned over the years .. a people will not be denied ... a nation.

[truebrit71]

13. ..and a nightmare for many thousands of others...

...If Sinn Fein wants to pay for the referendum fine, but when the vote comes back a resounding 'NO', as it will, can we be done with this bullshit once and for all???

I highly doubt it..

[RZM]

20. Is that what that song is about?

If so I never knew that. Makes sense I guess.

I've never been a big U2 fan, but that's always been far and away my favorite song by them.

[hifiguy]

7. Eminently sensible, I should think.

Let the Northern Irish decide for themselves.

[redqueen]

18. I don't get this at all.

The economic situation in the Republic is not good at all (to put it mildly), and *this* is when they decide to ask the north if they want to join up? Really?

Pointless. I hope they don't go through with it.