Donglegate, and why we don't have more women in tech

[Recursion]

So, my own thread went nowhere, but this thread got quite a lot of traffic. This is linked as background.

I bring this up as a feminist point because this is driving me fucking insane. This is not about the fired Python developer. Nobody cares about him. How can I tell? Because the company that fired him has received no threats.

Read the background links above, if you want; if not, take this as the story: there was a man and a woman. He behaved unwisely, and she did too. Both lost their jobs. He now has a kickstarter charity to help him make ends meet until he finds a new job. She has random men threatening to rape and kill her.

(To further confuse things, the guy himself actually seems like a nice guy; he apologized in a very mature and tactful way to her.)

The simple fact is, whether we want to admit it or not, a woman who challenges the patriarchy exposes herself to huge risks. This is true whether her method of challenging it is wise or unwise.

I am a participant in the Python programming community so this is important to me. However ill-advised Adria's tweet was, it was the right thing to do in that it showed the disgusting underbelly of our own community. Shame on us.

[Kurska]

1. The patriarchy is not some guys telling dongle jokes to each other.

And getting one of them fired didn't help any woman on the planet in any way.

That is part of the reason I disagree with what Adria did. I don't think dick jokes are really related to sexism. I can see how they could be used to make a woman uncomfortable, but that was certainly not the guys intent here. I mean it was a private conversation.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. See? See? SEE WHAT YOU DID?

The PATRIARCHY IS some guys telling dongle jokes to each other, AND the PATRIARCHY is YOU telling the OP that the PATRIARCHY is NOT some guys telling dongle jokes to each other!

Even WORSE, The PATRIARCHY is Warren DeMontague sarcastically MOCKING the CONCEPT of the PATRIARCHY by suggesting that ANY challenging of ANY assertion around THE PATRIARCHY will INVARIABLY be TURNED INTO further EVIDENCE of the nefarious pervasiveness OF THE PATRIARCHY!

[Whisp]

25. have a glass of warm milk or something

you are going to have a stroke. or something.

[Warren DeMontague]

27. "Stroke"? That sounds an awful lot like a sexual innuendo. FOR SHAME!

Did you hear that Adria Richards mentioned in one of her videos that she "prefers tall men"?

Doesn't that constitute vertical lookism? Heightist Gaze-Based Inchimalogical Footoflatublous Objectimafication? Call the phalanx of postgraduate theses-scribblers, we have a 20 page analytical study that needs confabulating!

Social Justice Warriors, Form UP! Chant! on my mark!

"SEE THE HUMAN, NOT THE HEIGHT!" "HEY HEY, HO HO, THIS YARDSTICK JUDGMENT'S GOT TO GO!!!"

[opiate69]

29. Excellent lol.. but.. you forgot the word of the day in that rant..

[Whisp]

30. whatever, dude

oh, and Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women.

[Warren DeMontague]

36. calmer than you are, dude.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

78. "Yeah, WAVING THE FUCKING DONGLE AROUND????!!!!"

[opiate69]

80. Which makes me wonder...

Can I dangle my dongle in Representative Dingell`s office? Or would that lead to me being paid a visit by Lieutenant Dangle??

[Skittles]

85. SCHEDULING OPIATE69 FOR ASS KICKING

*EGREGIOUS VISUAL*

[opiate69]

96. =-O

[Warren DeMontague]

138. Do you use google calendar, or what?

It must be hard keeping track of all that ass kick scheduling.

[Skittles]

147. it's a living

half of them pay me

[opiate69]

149. Just sos ya know, though.. I'm no switch, so I won't be paying lol

[Warren DeMontague]

137. Call Dingell, I can see Dangle's Dongle Dangling.

Oppa JonHamm Style.

[opiate69]

139. ok... I seriously laughed out loud.. the dogs are looking at me like I'm nuts

[Whisp]

130. vagina

[datasuspect]

39. that's funny as hell

[pokerfan]

44. el oh el

Put your right hand out
Give a firm handshake

[cherokeeprogressive]

26. Fist bump.

Well played.

[Warren DeMontague]

28. it'd be funny, if

..well, except for the father of 3 losing his job, and the crazies giving this lady death threats -which no one deserves, obviously- it IS kind of funny.

[cherokeeprogressive]

31. We live in interesting times.

I've never watched Portlandia, but I think I might start after seeing that clip. Who knows... I might learn something.

[Warren DeMontague]

37. Hell, I *live* in Portland, and I've always been sort of lukewarm on that show.

I watched some episodes of the 1st season, and didn't find it funny enough to make it a habit.

Part of it- and this is not defensiveness around my town- is that I have trouble believing that the stuff so "weird" about this place is really that weird. Or maybe I've just lived on the Left Coast for a long time.

But I've heard it's gotten funnier. This sketch really nailed it. Oh, sorry, shouldn't say "nailed it"

[cherokeeprogressive]

42. Yes, that sketch was bang-on.

Oops.

I know what you mean. I live in So. Cal. and have always wondered how it got the reputation it has. Maybe I'm just jaded who knows.

I think Portland is one of the prettiest cities there is. I-84 going East is a drive that's hard to match for it's beauty.

[theKed]

76. If you buy it dinner first

One in five posts say it's okay to say "nailed it".

[Electric Monk]

40. "Well, if you want to make a donation, we'll have almost enough...."

[sylvi]

45. It's almost like the Matrix, isn't it? nt

[BainsBane]

65. You entirely missed Recursion's point

which is about the broader public reaction to the events in question.

[Kurska]

83. Please explain to me how, exactly, what she did challenged the patriarchy.

If you're disgusted by the broader public response, I remind you that the person who she got fired had absolutely zero to do with that. Also the post I read and replied included one line about that, so if that was the broader point it was not properly communicated communicated.

[BainsBane]

87. The point is about public reaction

Last edited Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:17 PM - Edit history (1)

You are focusing on the interaction between these two people, or what you think you know about it. Recursion's point is about the broader public reaction to this incident that followed their firing. He is commenting on the aftermath of the event: That the woman has been met with threats of death and rape, while people have set up a kickstarter account for the guy. The patriarchy is the broader society that attacks women who speak up for themselves while rewarding a man for vulgar behavior that comprised his employer. The patriarchy is the broader society that blames women for refusing to tolerate behavior that creates a hostile work environment. The patriarchy is the cultural attitudes imbued in many here online, including here on DU, who have seized on this as an example of the evils of feminism and women in the work place. The patriarchy is made visible in comments on the part of posters in this thread who focus exclusively on this poor man being wronged and demonstrate absolutely no concern for the threats of rape and murder against a woman.

[Kurska]

94. They never once used the word "public reaction" in his/her post. There were two lines about it.

Again if that was the point it was poorly communicated, because no one else seems to be getting it either. A classic rule of rhetoric, is if you make an point and no one seems to be getting it you probably didn't make your point correctly.

But let me get his straight, you fight the patriarchy by doing something royally stupid to piss off a bunch of people completely unrelated to the persons she wronged?

You want to talk about the public reaction fine, but the public reaction can't be used to justify her over the top and self-destructive actions. If only for the simple reason, that happened after she wronged the human being that she wronged. Just because you're under attack by jerks, doesn't make you a good guy automatically.

I'm going to quote something very lovely down thread

"i think public shaming for a private joke where one is def not the intended target, nor is it in anyway personal, nor does it seem particularly hateful, is insane. "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022554671#post34

[BainsBane]

104. It isn't justifying anything she did

He didn't say that, no one is saying that. But the fact is you don't know the circumstances of the case. You don't know what prompted his employer to fire him, but you blame the woman because that is what you feel compelled to do. Common sense tells any thinking person that the guy would not have been fired based on a single comment alone. Either he had a history of embarrassing his employer and exposing them to lawsuit or he was a poor employee and this was the last straw.
But in a society that villainizes women, the entire focus is placed on her. Hence rape and death threats, which concern few here.

When a person is working, jokes are not private. Anyone who works for a living should know that. If someone who behaves in a racist or sexist way, they expose their employer to legal actions. Not to mention the fact it creates a hostile work environment for members of those groups, which is typically the point of such behavior.

Recursion's point was clear to me:
"He now has a kickstarter charity to help him make ends meet until he finds a new job. She has random men threatening to rape and kill her. . .

The simple fact is, whether we want to admit it or not, a woman who challenges the patriarchy exposes herself to huge risks. This is true whether her method of challenging it is wise or unwise. "

Responses in this and other threads on the subject provide evidence of just how pervasive that patriarchy is.

[Kurska]

113. He said she fought the patriarchy, how is that anything besides a justification or at least praise?

"You don't know what prompted his employer to fire him, but you blame the woman because that is what you feel compelled to do. "

Really, you think it is just a coincidence? Why would the guy write an apology letter to her if he was fired for anything else?

"Either he had a history of embarrassing his employer and exposing them to lawsuit or he was a poor employee and this was the last straw. "

Wow, so it isn't okay to assume he was fired for incident he wrote an apology letter for, but it is okay to invent an entire back story of other complaints against him WITH ZERO EVIDENCE FOR THAT.

I mean OBVIOUSLY he must have done other stuff to deserve being fired that we have zero evidence for, because otherwise um... she'd look callous and foolish?

This is something you have zero evidence, but are assuming must be true for your argument to make sense.

[BainsBane]

118. Clearly it was partly about this incident

Last edited Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:02 AM - Edit history (1)

but you really think an employer would fire someone they value over that one thing? If he was great at his job, do you honestly think he would have lost it over one remark? Do you know of a single case where that has ever happened?
She didn't ask for the man to be fired. That was the employers decision. Her looking foolish has nothing to do with the man's employer's decision to fire him. Do you get that? Do you understand that an employer chooses to hire and fire people, not someone who doesn't even work in that some company? Is that really so difficult to figure out?

There is little evidence in this case. Just second hand accounts and internet gossip. People here choose the version of events that conforms with how they see women. The woman didn't fire the man, but people target her because it confirms their view of the world and how uppity women threaten the social order, ie. patriarchy.

[Kurska]

144. Yes I do think an employer would fire someone over a single remark I've seen it

At will employment is a hell of a thing. If you bring the slightest bit of bad press to your company, you will probably end up getting let go. Again you're assuming things about his work record.... because of your unwavering belief in the fairness of the corporate America?
I mean otherwise you'd be basically slandering a man over a work record you don't have access to and I know you'd never do that.

I mean let me quote you again here

"Either he had a history of embarrassing his employer and exposing them to lawsuit or he was a poor employee and this was the last straw. "

Either he

1. Had a history of embarrassing his employer

or

2. He was a poor employee

I mean that is an either or, so you're saying it HAS to be one of those things. Where in the world did you get this information and why are you so certain about it? I'm sorry, but I've been here for 5 years and that is among the worst jump to conclusion I've ever seen. Absolutely amazing how you're up in arms over anonymous comments online, but you're trashing this guys work record with ZERO information about it. Why, because you don't think a corporation would overreact at social media coverage and fire some? It seems like every week we have a story about a completely unjust firing for something like that.

[BainsBane]

158. slandering a man

is an outrage. (It is not in fact slander. It is speculation) is the worst thing you've seen in five years, but making charges against the woman involved is perfectly acceptable. Do you think about what you write? You and everyone else have trashed the woman but that's perfectly fine because, well, she's only a woman. Good grief. Or do you really not care that it's obvious you are insisting that men deserve greater standing under the law than women? Smear a woman all day long, people threaten to rape and kill her, you have no problem with that. Suggest there is likely another reason for this guy's being fired in this guy's background, particularly when Recursion who knows this community has been told that is the case, that's an outrage. But threatening to kill and rape a woman, no problem.

And completely ignore the fact the woman never communicated with his employer at all. But you will blame her for firing and that's not slander. Blame her because that XX chromosome makes her evil, Never mind the fact that she didn't fire him; his employer did. But don't let that stop you from smearing the woman's reputation. It's not like she deserves any consideration. She's only female.

Good god. You couldn't be any more transparent.

[BainsBane]

159. the worst thing in five years is not threats of rape and murder

against a woman, but my suggesting that is likely more in this man's background that prompted the company to fire him. Some on the Pycon blogs have commented that this guy has done similar things in the past, but never mind that. I've "slandered" (never mind you have no clue of what slander is) him, and that's far more serious than threatening to kill and rape someone, because she's only a woman after all. I'm repeating that so people here know exactly what it is that you find offensive and that threats of rape and murder against a woman don't merit a mention from you
and can't compare to the worst travesty of the past five years: my suggesting that there is more that led to this guy being fired than an evil woman terrorizing men who want nothing more than to spend their work days telling dirty jokes. The inhumanity.

[Kurska]

164. When did I say you had said the worst thing I'd seen on here in five years?

I said it was the worst jump to conclusion I'd seen in years. There is no hope for this exchange if you aren't going to actually read what I wrote and respond to it.

Honestly don't believe I'll be responding properly to your posts. I can't debate points that aren't related to what I said.

[snooper2]

167. I don't think she is fighting the "patriarchy" FYI, she is just a self promoter trying to make money

Otherwise,

Wouldn't she have a video up on her channel saying what misogynist POS GoDaddy.com is, instead of an instructional video on setting up GoDaddy DNS?


adriarichards

I mean, GoDaddy is one of the worst promoters of sexism out there right?

[Marr]

2. Pretty horrible example. They're being treated differently because

he seems like a nice enough person who was personally attacked by a hypocritical busy-body who just wanted to stir up trouble for someone.

Taking sex out of it completely for a moment, one party comes off as-- at worst-- guilty of a moment of juvenile humor, while the other comes off as a complete asshole.

[RiffRandell]

7. Exactly! n/t

[Demo_Chris]

8. Pretty much this. n/t

[quakerboy]

9. You cant take sex out of it.

Guys who are assholes, busybodies, hypocrites, generally don't get threats of rape. That's an inherent difference that has nothing to do with who seems nice or not.

[HiPointDem]

10. they do though. if they're gay or suspected of being gay, or in situations

where they might be going to prison...

[quakerboy]

24. And my point is made

Thanks for emphasizing it.

[Demo_Chris]

38. So your chief objection here is that she was theoretically threatened with rape? n/t

[BainsBane]

66. what is "theoretically threatened with rape"?

Is that your way of calling the OP a liar?

[Demo_Chris]

81. No. It is my way of avoiding a definitive and possibly libelous statement. n't

[BainsBane]

82. and making clear

that you don't believe that she received death or rape threats, while you believe everything the man says. What a shock.
The fact they are all over Twitter for anyone to see is of course inconsequential.

[Demo_Chris]

111. I think my words and meaning are clear and do not need your revision

If you want to debate me (though I am unsure what exactly there is to debate) then do so. Debate what I have actually said, and not the words you would like to put into my mouth.

[theKed]

165. Good luck

on that request. "What I want to see" is her default reading mode.

[Demo_Chris]

166. I certainly do the same thing myself at times. n/t

[Honeycombe8]

33. You're not being a busybody to complain about an offensive comment said loudly enough

for those in the surrounding area to hear.

You're being a busybody is the comment is whispered to someone else, but in that case, others wouldn't have heard.

When you broadcast something in a crowd, it becomes everybody's business.

But I do agree she handled it wrong. If she's an adult, why not just turn around and good humoredly tell the guy..hey, we can hear you down here...would you mind keeping it clean?

[Marr]

51. Oh, yes you are.

That is most certainly being a busybody. And if you take a picture of the person and turn it into an online moral crusade, you're an Olympic-level busybody.

We all hear things that we'd rather not hear. This woman even made similar comments herself, apparently. There is a line, I'll grant you-- but I expect 99% of the public would put that line way past a dongle joke.

[Honeycombe8]

63. Oh, no you're not. He said it loudly enough in a crowd for others to hear. It's

everybody's business, in that case.

You speak to the crowd, it's their business what you say. Wanna speak confidentially? Whisper to someone, when you're in a crowd.

ESPECIALLY when you're telling off color jokes that others might find offensive.

You didn't read my whole post, if you think I agreed with the way she handled it.

[Marr]

91. But how she handled it is the whole point.

If she'd said to him, personally, that she didn't appreciate that sort of talk-- that's one thing. To take pictures of the person (smiling while doing it, to hear the guy tell it), and then post them online in a flat out effort to make life miserable for someone... that is shitty. That's being a serious asshole busybody.

[Honeycombe8]

100. She handled it wrong. But that's not being a busybody, which means interfering in

someone else's business. It wasn't someone else's business, since he was speaking to the crowd (if they could hear it). She was perfectly in her right to say or do something about it, but I don't think what she did was the proper thing to do. After all, what he said wasn't THAT big a deal. He wasn't saying something personally about her.

But you know, you never know if he intended for the women sitting in front of him to hear what he said. That's happened to me before, where a nearby male says something offensive, and I know he said it that loudly because he wanted me and other women to hear it. Intentionally being offensive. Some people get their jollies that way. Esp in a traditionally male environment where maybe some males don't want women horning in on their meeting...you never know.

[HiPointDem]

126. yes, it's being a freaking busybody. Like a lady who calls the police because she heard her

neighbor say "fuck".

A busybody is a person who hears or learns something & proceeds to make sure everyone else knows it, blowing it all out of proportion and making people suffer.

Just hearing something, or even trying to hear something, isn't what makes a busybody. It's precisely *how they handle it*.

A person who eavesdrops or spies on people but keeps the information to herself is just an eavesdropper or spy. It's stirring the pot that turns her into a busybody.

[lumberjack_jeff]

129. So, he said something loud enough to be overheard. Shame on him.

She said what she did, complete with a photograph of her target, to the entire internet.

Yes. An asshole.

All she had to do was turn around and say "shut the fuck up, guys."

[alp227]

50. But they violated the house rules in the Python conference.

http://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/

"All communication should be appropriate for a professional audience including people of many different backgrounds. Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks."

"Harassment includes offensive verbal comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race, religion, sexual images in public spaces, deliberate intimidation, stalking, following, harassing photography or recording, sustained disruption of talks or other events, inappropriate physical contact, and unwelcome sexual attention."

My tough question: why the FUCK is everybody ignoring simple moral issues and bending over backwards to defend the guys? The father of 3 lost his job and can't provide for his kids over this incident? Welcome to the real world and being an adult. You want to make dirty jokes? Do it when you're hanging out with your homeboys at the bar or at home, don't make everyone else hear 'em in a professional setting especially if they can snitch on you online (in this decade)!!!!

[redqueen]

55. why the FUCK is everybody ignoring simple moral issues and bending over backwards to defend the guys

I think we know why.

[dkf]

154. It wasn't malicious when the guys made the penis joke and it wasn't malicious when she made the

Penis joke.


But it was malicious to post their pic and attempt to humiliate them on the web.

We don't like that when kids do it on Facebook either.

[brush]

105. My thoughts exactly

A busy-body who foolishly inserted herself into a situation that really was not about her, and thereby got herself and the guy fired. Sometimes you just got to mind your own business.

[HiPointDem]

3. she didn't 'challenge the patriarchy'. to equate his act (making a penis joke to a friend) with

Last edited Sat Mar 23, 2013, 04:27 AM - Edit history (1)

hers (posting a picture of the wrong guy to the world and castigating him for a private penis joke & getting him fired) by calling them both 'unwise' is disingenuous.

she got him fired over a penis joke -- and got herself fired when her own penis joke came to light.

she doesn't deserve death threats, but she launched a nuclear attack over a penis joke.

this is not 'challenging the patriarchy,' it's petty bullshit.

penis jokes aren't the reason for the relative deficit of women in tech.

[FrodosPet]

19. My former roomate is thinking of going to school for electronics

Happy dance! I think she would be great at it.

Ooops, I just got a message from "Patriarchy Central" ... boo hiss women have no business in tech!

But seriously

I think there are a multitude of reasons why there are not more women in technology. A big one is that it is considered very nerdy. The cool kids want cool jobs. So there is peer pressure.

A lot of people, especially women, seem to BRAG about being "computer illiterate". I always try to be encouraging, and to offer steps towards computer mastery, but I guess I am not very good at it.

Sometimes I think what the world needs is a bunch of hot guys to push the idea of women in tech. No one wants to listen to fat middle aged men and women's studies majors on the subject.

(I am in SO much trouble with this post aren't I? Oh, well!)

[Generation_Why]

4. People need to just learn to shut the fuck up.

And accept that people are going to say and do things they don't like.

Most people just want a secure job, a roof over their head, and food in their bellies.

They shouldn't have to face hurdles because someone thinks society is putty in their hands and goes on a crusade over small issues.

[bhikkhu]

5. Small issues, like sexism, racism, misogyny?

Its easy to minimize things, but I can say that at my workplace we will never have a female employee, and we'll never have a black employee. The only evidence supporting this certainty is the small, but daily, patter of racist and sexist jokes. Prejudice puts on a mild face most of the time, if you look at the history of it, but hate lies just below the surface. What you wind up with is too many people who never know why they can't get a job, or why they never seem to get a foothold in society, or why they always seem to be on the outside, or the butt of "harmless" jokes.

[HiPointDem]

11. the jokes aren't why they're not going to get a job; management policies

is why they're not going to get a job.

and management policy could change the workplace -- if it wanted to.

ordinary workers telling penis jokes don't control management/corporate hiring.

[bhikkhu]

18. I don't think you understand

maybe you don't work in a "corporate culture" like that.

The jokes are the daily reinforcement and propagation of the misogynistic and racist culture. Its weak on its own, isolated in individuals, and not supported by facts or science; to survive it needs regular maintenance, a reassuring daily pat on the back - a good joke to share is probably the most common means there is.

That's how its done, in addition to the subtle fox news and not-so-subtle hate radio work. Its a culture, a corporate culture in the case of chronic workplace sexism and racism; it shows up strongly in the statistics, it does affect hiring and pay, and it does use jokes as a tool.

[HiPointDem]

20. I understand quite well; that culture is tolerated a/o encouraged by management or

owners.

If they chose to, they could end it.

It doesn't exist on its own, as some all-powerful force.

Fear of unemployment is a wondrous thing.

[Melon_Lord]

84. There are legitimate problems...

... many of which you listed.

Then there is going out of your way to be offended and to tattle to as wide an audience as possible for maximum sympathy.

A real adult and equal would have told them that it wasn't appropriate and to cut it out. A child in need of desperate reassurance does what she did.

"Women in technology need consistant messaging from birth through retirement they are welcome, competent and valued in the industry"

She was desperate for attention and boy did she get it....

[BainsBane]

68. It creates a hostile work environment

violates EEOC standards, and exposes the employer to lawsuit. That is why companies do not allow such idiotic behavior in the workplace. People have a constitutional right to be as stupid as they want in their own homes, but not on the job.

[alp227]

52. Oh boo hoo, a professional setting can actually have MANNERS! and STANDARDS!!!

http://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/

Everyone is missing the point: those stupid men got caught breaking the rules in a professional setting and got the book handed to 'em. They can't live like they used to? Tough luck, they're way too far in adulthood to be making excuses.

"...accept that people are going to say and do things they don't like." So we should've just shut up when Todd Akin talked about "legitimate rape" and god forbid let him in Congress maybe even the Senate Science Committee and let him screw up America????

[redqueen]

56. "they're way too far in adulthood to be making excuses."

You'd think so, right?

Welcome to Idiocracy.

[Phillip McCleod]

150. comparing a dongle joke to 'legitimate rape' is a stretch too far

for rational discourse.

[AnnieBW]

6. I'm not surprised at all

I'm in a technical field. I've been to my share of conferences where it was just me and the "booth babes" representing the female of the species. At least there were no lines for the women's room! It's surprising how sexist these things can be. I'm not offended by guys talking about the size of their "dongles". Frankly, I just laugh it off as "they're probably using a USB 1" or something like that. What I DID resent was being talked down to because I'm a woman. I got that crap all of the time.

[HiPointDem]

12. Everyone resents being talked down to, and everyone has been talked down

to. I've been talked down to because I was a woman, because I was a foreigner, because I was younger or older, because I was not as wealthy or powerful, because I was unemployed, because I was employed at an unimpressive job, because I hadn't gone to a sufficiently important university, because I didn't have a business degree, because I made a 'mistake' that supposedly showed I was ignorant, because I was someone's underling, because, because, because.

Interactions with people are often covert dominance struggles.

What I find hard to understand is what the action agenda is here.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. eavesdropping on a conversation she wasn't a part of, taking someone's picture without permission,

and posting it on the internet was "the right thing to do"?

No, it wasn't. This was a private conversation that she felt entitled to insert herself in the middle of. This was not a "microaggression" against her, because she wasn't even party to their conversation. They weren't talking to her, they weren't on the stage. The "aggression" was eavesdropping on some shit that wasn't being said to her. ...and "no one cares about the fired python developer"? That's right- this is someone with kids who LOST THEIR JOB because some shitwit with a history of using her "social justice warrior" hat as an excuse for an obvious inability to get along with other human beings, couldn't simply accept that maybe someone else's private conversation wasn't her business.

And yes, now, she has "bravely challenged the Patriarchy"! and people are pissed and, this being the internet, it would appear some people have reacted very badly. Which is not acceptable, either.

But in doing so, they're giving JOAN OF ARC OF THE DONGLES exactly what she wanted all along, i.e. status as some grand martyr on the pyre of some great cause.

Except this ISN'T a great cause, it's a fucking dongle joke, a private dongle joke between two people -neither of whom was her- that DIDN'T OPPRESS ANYONE.

NO, NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT.

So JOAN OF ARC OF THE DONGLES will now be able to -invariably- parlay this into some grand status as a figurehead for all the people who think that all their problems in life usher forth from the wellspring of other people telling jokes -to each other- that they don't like. She will be fine, she'll be more than fine, she'll be a friggin' hero to some. Clearly, she already is.

Which is too bad, because people who've actually had to deal with her crap in the past have made it clear she's not a hero, just a fairly insufferable human being.

[TheKentuckian]

21. Seems about the size of the whole deal to me.

[opiate69]

22. !

[Demo_Chris]

41. well said

Women like this give the entire feminist movement a bad name.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. My Wife is a Feminist who functions very well in the tech industry, doesn't take any shit,

recognizes REAL discrimination when she sees it. (And considers things like inadequate support for families, or the need for a SPHC system, flex-time and even breastfeeding accommodation to be far greater important issues than some developer telling dick jokes to his beardo buddy)

...First "dongle" joke I ever heard, came from her.

[alp227]

53. It's not private when they were in a setting where EVERYONE ELSE could hear their shit.

A PROFESSIONAL BUSINESS setting with a fuckin' CODE OF CONDUCT none the less.

It was like blowing tobacco smoke in everyone else's face.

[Warren DeMontague]

57. Really.

They weren't on stage, they were in the audience. They weren't talking to her, they were talking to each other.

Is "everyone else" listening to these guys in rapt attention? No. She was eavesdropping, and furthermore she's established a pattern of seeking out shit to be outraged over. Oh, I realize it's a pet hobby of erstwhile "social justice warriors". Shit, I spend enough time on DU to realize that.

You don't think people in this crowd have even the most meager expectation of being able to converse with the person next to them privately?

[alp227]

59. Those guys are ADULTS. They should take responsibility for their behavior.

Did their parents/teachers fail to teach them basic moral values including no talking during presentations or at least keeping it down? If Adria was able to hear 'em, they were doing it wrong.

[Warren DeMontague]

60. I'm sorry, but a "Dongle" joke is not something to make a fucking Federal case over.

It's only "sexist" if you've got major fucking problems. If they were saying something horrible, something racist, something obscene.. maybe. But a "dongle" joke? O NOEZ!

And even so, then the proper thing to do is turn around and say "hey guys, please knock it off". Not tweet their picture to 7 billion people without their consent.

And this lady has a history of not only doing this shit, and she's made her own penis jokes. (CALL THE POLICE!!!!! ) But that's apparently okay because she's JOAN OF ARC OF THE DONGLES and she has struck a blow against the white male bearded oppressor dumb joke-making man.

[alp227]

61. What federal case?

And the conference actually enforced its rules that it is a professional, mature, adult, civil environment? that had to be RADICAL news to some!!!

[opiate69]

77. Seriously??

http://m.dictionary.com/t/?q=federal%20case

[alp227]

124. The ONLY reason it is such is because of the trolls who retaliated against Richards.

"This should have been the end of it: a happy story of a minor breach of manners handled by grown-ups who moved on to do their jobs professionally. Lessons learned all around; don’t disparage or harass minorities (women were only 20% of the attendees), trust the organizers to manage hiccups smoothly, deal with problems through official channels. Except...(a) whole bunch of otherwise uninvolved people completely lost their shit. This is ridiculous." ([link:freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/03/22/adria-richards-did-everything-exactly-right/comment-page-1/|PZ Myers], in reference to the DDOS to Richards' employer)

Myers also commented reasonably:

The guys were clearly in the wrong. They were being rude, distracting, and trying to assert their dudely privilege in one of the few moments granted women during a conference dominated by men. So Richards turned, snapped their picture, and tweeted it to the conference organizers, asking them to handle it.

This was a measured response. It wasn’t a blast of anger, it was a request that the conference enforce its code of conduct. It disrupted the meeting less than a couple of chattering smart-asses did. This is exactly what we should want people to do: polite confrontation through appropriate channels.

The conference organizers also did exactly what they were supposed to do: they called the two men aside and asked them to stop and behave themselves.

[Warren DeMontague]

135. what part of "eavesdropping" isn't getting through?

I realize the Patriarchy-Blame-dustrial Complex may be constitutionally unable to acknowledge it, but some things actually ARE an overreaction.

[alp227]

140. What about shutting up or at least keeping it down in a professional setting?

Did those guys not remember passing notes in jr. high or playing phone?

[Warren DeMontague]

142. Since by all accounts it was ONE Dongle joke

maybe she should have asked them directly before going straight into tweet mode.

And did you miss the part where a whole bunch of people who've been unfortunate enough to encounter her previously have said this is a running problem of hers?

[alp227]

143. So what if Richards has ethical issues of her own?

Doesn't change the immorality of the men's actions.

[Warren DeMontague]

146. Joking about a "big dongle" to your buddy is not "immoral"

Jesus.

[alp227]

152. Well it depends. Everyone's got their own social standards.

It's one thing is they whispered it between themselves, another if they were negligent enough to let everyone else in a room (in a PROFESSIONAL SETTING) hear. Again think about blowing smoke in everyone else's face.

[Skittles]

112. don't get me started on what I hear working all night in tech

f***ing hilarious

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

67. Joan of Kardashian is more like it

This is a person who did all of this for attention.

[theKed]

74. Indeed.

[dkf]

14. Well if women are going to make dick jokes and then try to get men fired for doing the same...

She is going to get blowback.

All that rape stuff is obviously over the top, but if you dish it you need to be able to take it.

[dkf]

16. I thought this was a good piece...posted from the thread you referenced.

http://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/

[JVS]

17. She employed a bullying tactic and the social media genie turned on her.

Her challenge to the patriarchy would have gone a lot better if she hadn't picked the troll-infested internet as a battlefield.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

32. yup. agreed

[petronius]

23. One thing that I'm curious about, as someone who doesn't use Twitter and has

never been to a developer or technology conference: was her use of Twitter for this purpose particularly unusual? I mean, if the conference had rules about sexist and/or discomfiting behavior (and it seems they did), how would she be expected to communicate her complaint (or any other complaint)? Do attendees at such conferences typically use Twitter to send feedback, questions, complaints, compliments to the organizers?

And I think you're raising the most important point here. Whether or not the guy was wrong to make the joke, and whether or not her way of responding was appropriate, and whether or not he should have been fired, and whether or not she should have been fired: it's definitely wrong and horrifying that she has received even one violent threatening response. That is clearly something the community should be discussing...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. honestly i dont get donglegate. i think public shaming for a private joke

where one is def not the intended target, nor is it in anyway personal, nor does it seem particularly hateful, is insane.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

93. Defending what she did is even crazier.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

103. i think i would defend it, if they were making genuinely hateful comments

but i didn't think they were. off-color is not hateful and doesn't deserve shaming

[UnrepentantLiberal]

115. Yeah, or if woman were part of the conversation and

the jokes were really crude. But dongle amongst themselves? Judging from a blog post about her written by a female in the industry I'd say it's a safe bet that this woman has a personality disorder. For her, creating controversy where there is none is irresistible.

[The Second Stone]

35. I'm pretty sure she made some penis jokes at the same conference

something about socks. I wouldn't have fired her over that, I might have laughed.

The thing that strikes me about his incident is that the woman reporting it made penis jokes herself and her behavior looks entirely like self-promotion at the expense of her employer. Kinda like Newt Gingrich is an attention hog. Hey, it works for some famous people, why not a few people with a good cause. (I happen to think feminism is a good cause, but I will hold doors open, so take that with a grain of salt.)

[alp227]

54. Most likely the tweet was sent to a trusted friend.

The way you talk w/strangers and trusted friends, way different levels. Her twitter account has looser standards than the PyCon.

[Phillip McCleod]

151. the tweet was sent to her 10's of thousands of twitter followers.

not to a trusted friend.

[The Second Stone]

169. What you've described is a text message

a tweet that I know about is public, and a lot more public than those two guys.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

46. My girlfriend can identify about half-a-dozen reasons why there aren't more women in high tech,

This is no variation on any of them. This is just a busybody publicly humiliating herself.

[Warren DeMontague]

48. she has a pattern of doing this, over and over again.

Apparently she's well known as a foul human being incapable of getting along with others.

Now, of course, she will parlay her victim status as JOAN OF ARC OF THE DONGLES as a hero to everyone who thinks that butting into other peoples' private conversations constitutes "ACTIVISM"!

[Skittles]

86. CORRECT

[Warpy]

47. The real villain in this is the manager who wouldn't do his job

and the stupid company that didn't expect him to.

This should have been handled with a word to both of them, to him for being crude and to her for posting about it and making the place look bad and that should have been the end of it.

Neither should have been fired for this shit. A simple word to the wise by a manager who gave a shit would have sufficed.

The manager just didn't give a shit.

[Warren DeMontague]

49. Is it okay to post peoples' pictures on the internet without their consent, or isn't it?

I mean, change a couple variables in this story, and we would be hearing about how those tweets are evidence of "rape culture".

[Recursion]

101. I do it all the time. We cheer it all the time here.

Think of every stupid teabagger with a misspelled sign that's been posted here.

[Warren DeMontague]

136. If you are at a protest holding a sign, you are by definition asking for public attention.

This is not the same thing as snapping a stranger's picture in the audience.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

72. so true. nt

[Nevernose]

58. I am sure that's a part of it

But I honestly think it's far larger than that. It some from a society that says girls need to try and fit in more than boys do; that girls wear pink; that girls aren't as good at math and science; that video games are for boys; that technology is for boys; that this role is for girls, and that role is for boys. Hopefully y'all can think of your own examples for each of these societal pressures. It's the society that says, over and over, that smart boys become doctors and smart girls become nurses.

I believe that the primary reason that there aren't more women in tech isn't because of what happens when women are 30, but because of what happens when little girls are 3.

[Vinnie From Indy]

62. Geez, as with anything, people should pick their battles wisely

The donglegate incident, it would seem to me, is the wrong battle to fight for feminists.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

69. i tend to agree.

[Recursion]

64. Again: he has a kickstarter, she has death and rape threats

That's the problem.

[BainsBane]

70. Your point is well taken

Sadly, very few here seem to get it. I don't know if it's because of ingrained sexism or an inability to think about broader implications. I, however, very much appreciate your making it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

71. yes, so that is clearly outrageous. the death and rape threats

especially rape, since men are typically not threatened with rape

[theKed]

73. Curious...

Did he start the kickstarter, or did someone start it in his name?

[Recursion]

75. Others did

It's called the "defense from feminism fund"

[theKed]

79. Thanks.

It does make a bit of difference in the story whether he did or others did it "for" him, and I honestly did not know. Thanks for the info.

[BainsBane]

90. No accusations?

That he created yet another "vanity post" and that he should keep his posts in a separate space where you don't have to see them? Or is that directive reserved strictly for posters without Y chromosomes?

[theKed]

99. shoo, stalker.

I have not noticed a trend to vanity posts in everyone.

[BainsBane]

107. that was my point

Funny how a "vanity" post gets over 70 recs. Just wondering where in the dictionary does it define vanity is a critique by a woman?

[theKed]

108. Furthermore,

I was responding to a reply to the OP. I was curious about a piece of information that was presented for the first time (that I have seen) in this thread. I haven't made any comment towards the OP supporting or decrying their posting. The fact that RedQueen is a woman is irrelevant to the fact that they have a history of vanity posts.

And even more furthermore that is an entirely different thread. I suppose you have nothing more constructive to do with your life than troll and stalk around on DU?

[BainsBane]

119. there was nothing vanity like about it.

And you have not even articulated a reason for why it was a so-called vanity post. Your single point was that women's issues should be discussed out of your sight, segregated from where you encounter them, presumably because one of the most frequent crimes in the world is too trivial for you to be burdened with having to come across threads about. In that thread, like here, you rely entirely on personal attacks rather than articulating any sort of thoughtful disagreement.

[theKed]

123. Actually, I don't advocate taking the discussions out of my sight (not site)

Since I routinely wander through HoF and read threads there. Much like I often read through things in the Men's Group. So, it's not like I don't read things that get posted there. I feel that things that have a dedicated group, ought to be discussed in those groups. It makes it easy to find such discussions. I don't like the gun threads in GD either, but there's a clearly-noted exception for those topics at this time. And others have made ATA posts asking that guns be put back into RKBA (and the new Gun Control Law discussion group).

I called it a vanity post because it was 1] a post perfectly at home in another thread on the topic being discussed, 2] was actually posted there first, and then deleted, and 3] I have noticed a trend of that poster to start new threads on topics solely for the purpose of feeding flames and garnering attention in the past.

[theKed]

131. No? Nothing to say about that?

Funny, you've got pithy commentary on everything else. Was there nothing you could twist around to make me look like a "rape apologist" or "part of the patriarchy"? Cmon.

[BainsBane]

133. for heaven's sake

My, you're desperate for attention. I thought it best to carry on the conversation in the original thread.

Your defense rings hollow. I don't recall your calling any of the endless spawn off threads on doors "vanity posts." People here get to post what they want. They don't need your permission. Deal with it. Your Cheetos and Playstation await.

[theKed]

134. Actually

this is definitely not the first eyeroll/popcorn post I've made to threads that repeat the same old shit over and over. I'm not offering my permission, I'm offering my opinion.

[JVS]

88. Because she picked the shittiest venue to resolve a conflict and the inhabitants...

of that venue have a perverse sense of what constitutes justice and what are appropriate measures to achieve it.

The reason she took it to twitter was that things go viral on the internet and as a result a lot of people would see it. Other DUers have pointed out to you that this is a harsh way of dealing with people, but you've dismissed them by saying whatever works.

But there are a shitload of trolls on the internet who also go by the dictum of whatever works. They wanted to avenge what they saw as a wrong and used every method they could to make such a nuisance of themselves that she'd get fired. Methods including DOS attacks, harassment, sifting through her twitter and fb feeds, etc. Now, they're jerks (and in some cases criminals) for doing that but their actions also highlight how inconsiderate and irresponsible exposing people to trial by twitter is.

[BainsBane]

89. That she was stupid in putting the thing on Twitter is clear

but that in no way invalidates Recursion's point that public reaction, including on DU, to this entire incident reveals just how pervasive sexism is in our society.

[JVS]

92. That point is invalid because here on DU she didn't get threats or hatred.

Elsewhere she got threats. Those threats have no bearing on the issue of whether DU responded appropriately.

[BainsBane]

95. the responses here exemplify perfectly

Recursion's point about patriarchy and sexism. You are correct there were no death threats, but sexism has been manifest throughout the entire discussion.

[JVS]

97. only if you dismiss disapproval for her actions as sexism

[UnrepentantLiberal]

102. If you don't agree with everything every woman does

to lash out at the insidious patriarchy you are guilty of blatant sexism. Seems like an easy rule to follow.

[BainsBane]

106. when people automatically blame a woman

and don't bother to even consider for a moment that they don't know the whole story, and that obviously the employer must have had other reasons to fire him, then we see
a deep-seeded desire to villainize women.

[JVS]

109. And you can determine if she's been given no consideration how?

[BainsBane]

110. by reading the responses

in that other thread and this one.

[JVS]

114. and back to post 97 we go

Just because people disapprove doesn't mean they're sexist

[BainsBane]

120. not necessarily

but in this particular cases the responses on the web generally, including this site, reveal a deep-seeded sexism, as is the point of this OP.

[Warren DeMontague]

141. You said yourself she was wrong in the way she handled it.

Apparently, though, if a man says the exact same thing, that's "sexism".

[2ndAmForComputers]

98. Where is that Kickstarter link you speak of?

I want to contribute.

[FarCenter]

116. Dongle jokes are not as bad as marketing types refering to engineers as nerds, geeks and techies

Nerd is an N-word.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

117. nerd is nothing like the N-word. nt

[FarCenter]

121. It is when technically clueless twenty something marketing blondes apply it to computer scientists

[La Lioness Priyanka]

122. no, it's not. as far as i know computer scientists have never been lynched

using those words, denied employment, denied housing, denied equality etc.

please don't belittle an ugly history of race in this country and in this world.

[FarCenter]

125. OK, but they are still hugely insulting terms, and should never be used in a professional setting.

Especially by females who have been transfered into the organization from marketing, operations, finance, etc. to do project manangement, requirements writing, testing operations, etc. and have no idea what software design and development actually involves.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

127. yeah being called fat is hugely insulting but its nothing like a racially loaded word

sometimes you have to wonder how much of our racial history we choose to forget when we think anything can be like the N-word.

[MannyGoldstein]

128. My better half is an engineer.

She tells guys what to do. Orders construction-types around. They do what she says. No problems. She deals with all kinds of people. No problems. Been doing it for decades. Either she's totally clueless (with an IQ that's 15 points higher than mine), or it's possible to be a woman and an engineer without hassle.

I have seen her in action when people are fucking with her outside of work. It's ugly. She doesn't take crap, at all.

[BainsBane]

153. A guy in my neighborhood says he got mugged

while he was walking his dog at night. I walk my dog at night all the time, and I've never been mugged. I guess that means that guy couldn't have been mugged. I've never been mugged, so that guy must be lying.

[MannyGoldstein]

162. The OP doesn't claim a single mugging

Rather, it claims that mugging happens all the time, it's so common that folks steer clear of the neighborhood.

Yet, at least one person has been going for years and never experienced a mugging.

[Nye Bevan]

132. If one of these guys had grabbed her ass, asked her for sex, commented on her body,

rubbed up against her, exposed himself to her, etc., she would have my sympathy.

But none of this happened. She got a guy fired over a harmless joke that she happened to overhear that was not even directed at her.

She has been a disservice to this cause.

[BainsBane]

161. that would be assault

There is a difference between violating a company policy and sexual assault. Is your assertion that EEOC laws are meaningless and as long as a man does not criminally assault a woman in the workplace, an employer should not fire him? By all means tell the employer he had not right to fire this poor beleaguered man who only wanted to spend his workday telling dirty jokes.

[Phillip McCleod]

145. i'm not sure that 'it was the right thing to do' to tweet a pic.

it was also pretty juvenile. it was the kind of thing that happens at high school pep rallies.. the whole interaction i mean, not just ms. richards' pic. it should've ended after the conference staff chatted with the coder, as i think everyone agrees, including all parties involved.

all parties, that is, except their cowardly corporate overlords.

the lost story is that two tech companies cut them loose over such a minuscule, childish infraction. it's too bad that's lost in all of this, but there it is.. long lost, all thanks to, once again, as you very correctly point out.. a bunch of 4chan script kiddies who couldn't hack their way out of a paper sack and just saw an opportunity to once again prove their degeneracy.

[Live and Learn]

156. In my long career, I have witnessed and been subjected to quite a bit of

sexual harassment. I can say that the work environment today, while far from perfect for women, is substantially better. Most of the improvement came not from suing or threatening men but from teaching them what was acceptable and what was not. Notice, I said "most", but I've found that most coworkers aren't intentionally trying to upset anyone.

I still find that informing coworkers when they may be crossing any line to be much more effective than being confrontational or attempting to publicly humiliate them to be much more effective. I am not a fan of public humiliation in any form.

[Warren DeMontague]

157. Heaven help her if she ever gets a job with Oscar Meyer.

[sendero]

160. I work in tech..

...... there are plenty of women doing it but there never will be as many as men until there are 12 year old women taking computers apart and putting them back together compulsively. There aren't a lot of women in tech because few women find it interesting, IMHO.

And most tech nerds guys are part of the "patriarchy" like athletes are part of the "sensitivity movement".

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

163. My girlfriend takes it a step further,

The only person in the world who was supportive of her nerdy endeavours as a child was her dad who did every radioshack "build-your-own" kit ever made with her. Her dad bought her a computer of her own she could break and fix to her hearts content. But her dad worked in construction, so he couldn't really teach her anything, but he indulged her interest to the absolute limit of his ability.

Her mother was mortified by it and other girls ostracized her for it. Fortunately as a teenager she found other girls boring and irritating so the disapproval of "skanks, s--ts and b----es" as she refers to them wasn't enough to discourage her from it. She thinks the single largest force that keeps women off this track is peer pressure from other girls in their youth.

Into University and her early career she encountered a good many men who were hopelessly awkward around her (this was the early 90's) but certainly not hostile. Although when I tried to explain to her what "patriarchy" meant after she stumbled on a feminist spoof she was baffled by it. Being on the math/science track she just never encountered it.

[FarCenter]

168. There's no indication that Ms Richards had a difficult teen or early 20's career

Out of HS, she seems to have been recruiting public opinion survey subjects. She then went to a community/technical college for a couple years, majoring in Psych, but not getting a degree. What follows is a succession of help desk, desktop admin, and network admin jobs until she goes into the IT training field. Rather late she got certs in training and MSCSA. Meanwhile active in racial and feminist causes.

In other words, no CS or STEM degree, no software development background, and the type that IT professionals are well advised to steer very clear of.

It's a problem for legitimate women IT professionals that there are so many of this type around, but with the internet it is becoming easier to tell who's who.