US warns tourists against 'immodest attire' in Jerusalem

[Poll_Blind]

From YNet:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4185277,00.html
[div class="excerpt" style="border-left: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-right: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius: 0.3077em 0.3077em 0em 0em; box-shadow: 2px 2px 6px #bfbfbf;"]US warns tourists against 'immodest attire' in Jerusalem[div class="excerpt" style="border-left: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-right: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius: 0em 0em 0.3077em 0.3077em; background-color: #f4f4f4; box-shadow: 2px 2px 6px #bfbfbf;"]The US State Department is concerned over recent violence exhibited by extremists in Israel's haredi community and has published a travel recommendation for tourists: Do not walk around dressed immodestly in haredi neighborhoods for fear that extremists would assault you in the street.

--snip--

The travel recommendation follows on the heels of statements made by US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton who, speaking at the Saban Conference two months ago, expressed her shock that some busses in Jerusalem allocated separate seating areas for women.

"It's reminiscent of Rosa Parks," she said, referring to the black American woman who refused to give up her seat to white passengers in the 1950s.

Referring to the decision of some IDF soldiers to leave an event where female soldiers were singing, she said it reminded her of the situation in Iran.

Full text of warning can be found HERE on Travel.State.GOV. It's both heartening that Clinton would call a spade a spade on this matter and disheartening that it's reached a point where the State Department had to officially warn Americans traveling about it.

It does remind one of Iran. All religious extremists seem to begin their tyranny with oppression of women.

PB

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. In this case State is behind the times a few decades

Long sleeves and long skirts have been required at Mea Shearim, for example, for oh...since 1967 at least.

On the plus side secular Israelis probably had it after the last stunt.

Now back to my site to speak of the forbidden one.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

4. This is actually one of those constantly renewed travel warnings

It's not new. It's just the most recent one issued.

[mainer]

2. wtf? I can walk around Istanbul in a miniskirt and sleeveless top

and no one bats an eye. But in Israel, you'll get harassed?

[customerserviceguy]

3. The more strict forms of Judaism

are no better than the fundie forms of Christianity or Islam. It's actually the law (on the books, anyway) that men and women have to walk on opposite sides of the street in New City, NY.

[waddirum]

7. The town is New Square, NY

and there is no such law about sex segregation on the sidewalk. That is just a "bubbe meisa" (wives tale).

[Nevernose]

9. It is, however, illegal to spit in a woman's presence

In Las Vegas, even in public. Nor is one allowed to spit in front of a church on Sunday, NPR operate a tavern or gaming establishment without copious spittoons. Those ordinances date back to 1910; I wouldn't be surprised of their wasn't something that used to be on the books.

For the record, those laws I mentioned are still on the books.

[Occulus]

20. Perhaps there's no law, but if it's the place I'm thinking of,

they (some of the religionists living there) would very much like for there to be one.

[waddirum]

29. no doubt about it

Google up the story of Aron Rottenburg and Shaul Spitzer to get an view of the religious insanity in New Square

[Bluenorthwest]

31. Of course that is not the law in NY, and also of course, Jerusalem is not just a Judaic

city, it is center for many seriously strict Christian sects and Muslims of all religious intensities as well. So fundies of all stripes, all faiths, all orthodoxies. You can piss off a Druze without knowing what the fuck a Druze is. The entire city is someone's holy something, much of it holy to all or more than one group.
Common courtesy calls for fairly modest attire in the old City. That courtesy is extended to all faiths who are present.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. I think you'd be fine in Tel Aviv.

Sort of like the difference between San Francisco and Fresno.

[MrScorpio]

5. I'd rather party on a beach in Haifa instead nt

[Bonobo]

6. Seriously, do a google search on "Haifa" and Bikini" and see how repressive they are. nt

[Zanzoobar]

8. It's good advice.

[BeHereNow]

10. Because?

I'd like to know, in more detail, why it is good advice.
Thanks.
BHN

[Zanzoobar]

11. Because there a good chance of being hurt by not following the advice.

[BeHereNow]

12. Sorry, I am ignorant of this faction in Israel-

Are you saying there is a version of the Taliban or extremist fringe
fanatics in 2012 in Israel that would attack women who didn't meet
their standard or belief about what is appropriate attire for women???
If so, I had no idea that such extremism existed there.
BHN

[Zanzoobar]

13. Now you know.

[BeHereNow]

14. And this extreme group is just tolerated by other Israeli citizens?

To our credit- at least the US forced the KKK into the closet-
Sounds like these "True believers" are just accepted in Israel.
Do you have any links to give me to learn more about them-
I've never heard of them or their violence towards women.
Sounds more like an extremist group from Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia!
Seriously, I had no idea such a group operated in Israel!

Can't say I'm anxious to visit there, as I tend to wear what I want!
BHN

[Warren DeMontague]

16. There are all sorts of places in the world where it's not a good idea to go.

I grew up in Chicago, but I didn't spend a whole ton of time walking around the Robert Taylor homes after dark, for instance.

This is sensible advice. Israel has their fair share of fundamentalist religious nutjobs, as do many places.

[BeHereNow]

17. True that- this group of extremists is new to me however-

and walking in questionable neighborhoods in Chicago is
not really akin to dealing with religious violence directed at women in Israel.
Apples and oranges.
Chicago violence is attributed to poverty, drugs and gangs.
Religious violence is something else entirely.
BHN

[Warren DeMontague]

18. Let's put it this way. Jerusalem, of all the cities in the world, is one where which neighborhood

you are in is more than just a trivial concern. This is a place that has been sectioned off, in one way or another, for thousands of years.

And yes, there are fundamentalist Jewish extremists in Israel. The settler movement is driven, in large part, by some of these groups. The majority of Israelis are not pro-settlement or pro-settler, for instance. Yet the nature of the Israeli state is such that many of these orthodox groups get special treatment, don't have to serve in the military, etc. This creates quite a bit of political friction, especially since the folks who did the lion's share of building the state of Israel came from a left-leaning, secular socialist European worldview, bordering in many cases on Communist or proto-Communist ideology, which was, for instance, a big driving factor behind the Kibbutz movement.

It's a big internal debate in Israel, now, how much power should these ultra-orthodox religious groups have, what right do they have to tell others how to dress, etc.

But as I noted elsewhere in the thread, Tel Aviv is a completely different story, with a vibrant night life, cosmopolitan values, a very strong and vocal GLBT community and scene, etc.

And it's always fun to see the reaction of US Right-Wingers who think they're doing Jesus's work by "supporting Israel", when you mention to them that, oh, you know that Israel has a single payer health care system, Israel has let Gays and Lesbians serve in the military for years, and in Israel women can easily obtain RU-486 in pharmacies.

[Poll_Blind]

19. Yeah, there is. You should work a daily reading of Haaretz into your news regime.

It's not only an excellent lefty newspaper, it's also Israel's oldest and it's been documenting the rise of ultra-orthodox violence and repression for years now. A few years ago, Morgan Spurlock (the guy who made "Super Size Me!&quot made a movie called "Where in the World is Osama bin Laden?". He literally flew around the world looking for bin Laden and interviewed people in different countries about bin Laden and the war on terror. It was more entertaining than it might sound but he clearly did not understand just how hardcore some of the rest of the world is. In a lot of ways, though, it was great because he (whether intentionally or not) represented a typical clueless American, viewing the world from the very narrow, ignorant (not meant unkindly) perspective we get from the media.

Here is what happened when he went to Israel (Jerusalem?) and simply tried to interview someone, anyone. Note the "Please do not pass through our neighborhood in immodest clothes" sign:

[BeHereNow]

34. Holy SHIT!

That is radical footage.
Thanks for enlightening me with a visual documentation.
I used to read Haaretz frequently- think I'd better start again!
BHN

[MicaelS]

27. The Haredi is an extremist fringe in Israel as bad as the Taliban

http://972mag.com/watch-ultra-orthodox-spit-on-immodest-8-year-old-girl-in-bet-shemesh/31268/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/menachem-rosensaft/ultra-orthodox-judaism-schism_b_1201349.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/thousands-of-israelis-protest-gender-segregation-in-beit-shemesh-1.403916

[BeHereNow]

35. Collective insanity? Mass delusion? What is behind this movement?

The 972 link was hard to watch- that poor child is completely traumatized by
her experience.
And the segment where the man is yelling, "I have been here since the 50's, you have not!"
It appears that these zealots are the biggest bullies outside of the clerics in Iran.
Talk about a dangerous movement.
They should throw them out of Israel, IMO.
BHN
On edit- the footage of the woman draped head to toe was disturbing- she
should have just been wearing a Taliban beekeeper outfit.
These people are the Taliban of Israel- no doubt about it.

Thanks for all the links!

[waddirum]

30. Yes there is an extremist faction that attacks women and girls

They go by the name "Sikrikim" or "Sicarlii".

Most of the violence takes place in Mea Shaarim (in Jerusalem) and Beit Shemesh.

Here is a one of many stories about them:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/09/mea-shearims-haredi-mafia-567.html

[BeHereNow]

37. Why doesn't the Israeli government throw them out?

If they showed up in my neighborhood treating people that way
they would be in jail.
Why do the police do nothing?
Does the Israeli government see this group as
a future asset in creating a Taliban 2 in Israel?
BHN

[DevonRex]

21. It's good advice but

there are areas of NYC in which women have to sit in the back of buses. Hillary shouldn't have been shocked that it happens in Jerusalem.

[annabanana]

24. Actually, the uproar from a recent news story about

this bus brought down a little civil response. Women can sit wherever they want, but those who are of that regressive community do so at the risk of punishment from the old men of their set.

[DevonRex]

26. Wow! That's great!

Personally, if I happened to be in that community I'd respect their wishes. But it's being told you HAVE to do it that sticks in my craw. Good thing the story made a difference. And thank you so much for the update. See, there's hope for us yet, as long as the press keeps us informed.

[annabanana]

22. What constitutes "immodest" to this particular sty of extremists?

Shoulders? Eyes? Ankles?

I mean really, .. What's a girl supposed to DO? . . . Maintain a separate wardrobe for each fetishist turn-on for each group of loony fundies?

[DevonRex]

28. Sounds like we have to do a lot more research

about the different areas and sects before we travel. Off the top of my head, I'd say mid-calf length skirt, a scarf for our heads and maybe even long sleeves. I'd choose a 60s style, very lightweight cotton or linen top with wide sleeves. And a very lightweight scarf if needed. Or a crinkly dress with those aspects. Probably a hippie shop or an Indian boutique would be the best place to find what we would need.

On edit, I looked it up and yes, long sleeves are a must. Long skirts and a high neckline. Scarf if married.

[annabanana]

32. Honest to God.. I have no desire to visit anyplace that

doesn't want me to be there... shoulders and all.

[DevonRex]

33. Don't you know that arms drive men crazy with desire?

Good God woman! You've been distracting men your whole life and didn't even realize that they could have been doing important theological study were it not for you!

OTOH, this thread made me try to find some hippie clothes and I found a vintage website that's now an addiction. Personally, I blame it all on you.

Seriously, it's pretty cool. it's rustyzipper.com

[alphafemale]

23. And some religious fuckfaces better be warned about laying their hands on just anybody.

Lay your hands on me and you will bleed. Copiously. Fucker.

[Arugula Latte]

25. Once again, religion rears its ugly, ignorant, extremist head.

[gratuitous]

36. Once again, ugly, ignorant extremism rears its head

And uses religion as a cover for its bigotry, which either fools some gullible twits or pleases some prejudiced nitwits.