Any idea of the arrest numbers for "trafficking and prostitution" in Indianapolis yesterday?

[GoneOffShore]

Or was it just a usual day in the big city?

And the pre game hysteria was just that, as it has been at every major sporting event in recent years.

http://www.tinynibbles.com/blogarchives/2012/02/is-the-super-bowl-a-hotbed-of-sex-trafficking.html#more-14106

Like so many anti-sex fanatics, the “anti-trafficking” activists are not actually anti-trafficking at all. They’re anti-sex. If we give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they’re simply ignorant. They’ve confused the issues of prostitution and trafficking.

[seabeyond]

1. i have never bought into this. but, i also dont know that it is the anti sex people

whomever one categorizes as that, to be the one to always put that out.....

[TheWraith]

13. Moral panic stories are a staple of every form of media.

And they always have been. It's particularly popular when, as with the "Human trafficking surges" stories, they're completely vague and basically impossible to conclusively prove false.

[seabeyond]

14. i never saw them come from the moral panic side. i saw it come more from titillate....

normalize side.

[TheWraith]

18. It's always moral panic.

Anything that frightens the audience and convinces them the world is going to hell in a handbasket keeps them coming back to read more.

[seabeyond]

24. i dont agree. nt

[TheWraith]

29. You're free to do that.

However, if you're insinuating that there's some kind of agenda to "normalize" sex trafficking and/or illegal prostitution, you're wrong. No one has an interest in doing that, least of all the people who make money off of it, since they make their money specifically because it's a black market, operating outside any sort of oversight or regulation.

[CoffeeCat]

2. Most prostitutes...

...are exploited human beings who do not want to be doing what they are doing. Especially
in Indianapolis, for Pete's sake.

Yeah. It's every girl's dream to grow up and be paid very little for having sex with disgusting,
middle-aged misogynists who have no respect for women. Sure.

Many prostitutes were sexually abused as children, and are just perpetuating their own nightmare--by
repeating the abuse pattern. They don't believe in themselves as people. They don't believe they
have boundaries. They view themselves as objects to be used. Anyone who visits a prostitute is
most likely capitalizing on victim-based trauma.

The ties that bind a prostitute to her line of work--are often as strong and painful as someone who is
being trafficked and forced to sell themselves.

It's really disgusting that some chump narcissistic blogger would position those who are concerned
about these women as "anti-sex fanatics." Whatever. Our species makes me want to hurl at times.

[Whisp]

4. [phone] thank you.

[seabeyond]

5. well said. thank you. nt

[dana_b]

35. good post - thanks n/t

[RZM]

44. I agree for the most part, except

You didn't mention drug addiction. A lot of prostitutes are out on the street because they are addicts and they sell their bodies to pay for that. Not everybody, but quite a few are, especially the sad streetwalkers.

I think maybe some of the high-priced call girls are in it for the money (not all of course). But desperate streetwalkers who get beaten by pimps? I think drugs play a big role there.

[RC]

3. Ahh, you might want ot get yourself one of these:

You're gonna need it.

[LadyHawkAZ]

6. Duck and cover...

Suggesting that adult women might have functioning minds of their own is verboten in some circles. How dare you imply that we consenting adults might be consenting adults! That's a slippery slope right there, next thing you know we'll start thinking we can choose if/when to get married and if we want kids.

[Whisp]

7. some of these women have been abused and have an altered view of life

and sexuality because of that. this is not a matter of consenting adults, it is a matter of taking advantage of people whose self esteem has been whittled down by a rapist uncle or dad or brother or neighbour or teacher, etc. Childhood abuse like that leaves scars for the rest of your life if not treated properly, I would think most people could accept that factoid.

[LadyHawkAZ]

8. Like I said...

next thing you know they'll be thinking they can choose when to get married and have kids. Because you know, they were molested as children and can't choose, so you have to do it for them.

There's a pretty decent track record of women with childhood trauma having dysfunctional or abusive relationships as adults and becoming abusive parents themselves, but I don't recall anyone suggesting they be legally barred from entering relationships or becoming pregnant, or jailing them if they do. Or jailing their partners. Because, you know, that would be wrong to do to consenting adults.

[Whisp]

11. I'm not referring to anything legal or taking the 'choice' away

for women who decide to be prostitutes, for whatever reasons they have.

what I am saying is Johns don't really give much of a shit, as long as they get their pokey pokey all's good. Consider the human being is all I'm saying - and choosing to get married is not at all like having some skeevy fat bad breathed creep inside you.

[LadyHawkAZ]

15. Not even if you marry a skeevy fat bad breathed creep?

If a person is incompetent to choose one, they are incompetent to choose the others.

I am a human being and a former sex worker, but when I speak, I get ignored, insulted or marginalized. I've posted stats showing that criminalization kills; that legalization with proper regulation makes life safer and exiting easier for workers and traffickers easier to catch, and had the stats ignored, insulted and marginalized. Who is considering the human beings here? I'm trying to keep them alive.

[Whisp]

21. I don't understand the comparison to marriage and prostitution.

some skeevy fat bad breathed creeps could make someone a good husband as marriage is a lot more than just pokey pokey.

[LadyHawkAZ]

23. If a person is incompetent to choose one

they are incompetent to choose the other. That is the comparison. A person not mentally competent to choose to have sex, be it for money or not, is also incompetent to choose to marry or have kids. A person mentally competent to choose to marry or have kids is also competent to choose to have sex, be it for love, pleasure or money, regardless of any past childhood trauma.

[Whisp]

27. I can't see the comparison

you say: If a person is incompetent to choose one
they are incompetent to choose the other.
==
I am perplexed about that statement. I think we are getting hung up on the word Choice. To me it's not much of a choice when your life has been devastated by sexual abuse when you were a kid - the path has been chosen for you by the rapist in that the sense of self worth is basically destroyed. Not saying that is the case all the time, nothing is 100% and I agree that if it truly is a choice without this awful background influence, that's okay, but a huge majority of abused women do end up in the sex trade and think very little of themselves. They emotionally remove themselves from their bodies just to survive.

[LadyHawkAZ]

31. Most people can't see the comparison.

A lot of the time, that's also a choice.

What you are saying, in essence, is: if an abuse survivor makes a choice that you find distasteful or wrong, it's not really a choice. It's only a valid choice if it agrees with your standards.

IIRC, the number of abuse survivors that go on to abusive relationships as adults is pretty high, but you don't dispute their right to have relationships, have sex within those relationships or marry. The chances of an abused child becoming an abuser as an adult, IIRC, are also high; but you don't dispute the right to have a child. The only time you dispute the ability to choose is when it's something that you personally would not do; but the effects of childhood trauma are the same in all three examples and will affect the person's choices in the same way. The better idea would be to make help more available for those that choose to use it, rather than telling them their choice is bad/dirty/wrong or that they're too stupid to make that choice. It does not help a person who may already have low self esteem to tell them that they're less of a person than you because you don't approve of their job. Especially when you back it up by jailing them.

After reading a number of your posts, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that childhood abuse seems to be a personal issue with you. Which is fine and I understand it, but you note that I'm not trying to imply that you're not competent or that any of your life choices aren't valid because of it. You're an adult and your choices are your business, no matter what your past may be. My point is that other people deserve the same courtesy. The majority of the workers arrested in these crusades are not trafficked and are not children. They are adults who deserve the same respect that you and I deserve. Implying that all workers are somehow incompetent and are therefore slaves not only marginalizes those who aren't, it wastes resources that might have helped those who are.

[Whisp]

33. before I read your whole post I have to say this:

you said:
''What you are saying, in essence, is: if an abuse survivor makes a choice that you find distasteful or wrong'''
==
If I can't make myself clear about this then the conversation is not going anywhere.

so I say Loud and clear here: I do not find prostitution 'distasteful or wrong'.

What I find distasteful and wrong are men who care not a whit about the feelings of another human being, as long as they can masturbate in a woman that's all they want. They don't care about anything else. They don't care that the liklihood that that particular woman is servicing them is because her father raped her when she was 7. for ex.

For all the sex workers that truly made a choice to get into the biz, that didn't have this awful baggage to interfere with their decision and cloud the fact whether it really was the right one - to the ones that make that choice themselves, it's none of my business what they do and good luck to them. I like and admire and respect prostitutes a whole lot better than their clientele, let me tell you.

[LadyHawkAZ]

38. Drawing strictly on personal experience here

The percentage of my clientele that seemed to be, to use your language, "masturbating in a woman" was maybe one quarter, and at that I'm not controlling for the fact that I had a large number of Hispanic clients and there was a language barrier with some. The ones that were really disconnected from the whole act were pretty rare; most seemed to specifically WANT there to be some appearance of companionship. Which I assume was why they were hiring me and not sitting home with a copy of Playboy. There was maybe a little less conversation and sharing than you'd get from picking a guy up at a bar, but not by much. The important difference being, once again, that we don't jail people for picking each other up in a bar, even if there's no deep loving emotional connection or the woman was molested as a child. We assume, rightly, that they're adults capable of making the decision.

There are no choices made by any adult anywhere that are not the result of some form of baggage- experience is what makes us who we are. That does not give me, or you, the right to interfere with those choices unless they are harming someone else- and by that I mean harming, not someone totally unrelated to them, hundreds of miles away, vaguely complaining that "I feel degraded by the example this sets". I support the human rights of ALL sex workers, not just those that have the right background.

[Whisp]

34. Alright, I read your whole post now.

and I explained in a previous post that you have the wrong idea of why I am talking about this subject. I don't think these women are 'wrong or distasteful', I don't think they are too stupid to make choices, etc. Obviously we are on totally different wave lengths here. If that is what you are gleaning from our conversation here, that I just simply don't like prostitutes, there really is no point in carrying on further.

Also you can go out on that limb of yours and take a jump. Are you Cleo the Psychic as well as Dr. Phil now? I don't think I was talking about anything personally directed to you, and if you took it that way I am sorry - I am only speaking generally and mean nothing specific to you. Why you would just take a flying leap of a guess that I was sexually abused as a kid because I talk about it? wtf?

[LadyHawkAZ]

36. Not just because you talk about it

Because you talk about it repeatedly and in very emotional, specific and/or graphic language. Generally people that do that are abuse survivors. If you're not, I apologize for the assumption. You talk like one.

[Whisp]

37. well you talk like one that is full of crap.

[LadyHawkAZ]

39. I'm not going to play kiddie insults with you. n/t

[Whisp]

40. I was not making any of this conversation personal.

You did that.

Plus you also don't want to believe me - you want to believe that I am disgusted by and hate prostitutes and that's what this is all about according to you when I tried to make it as clear as possible you are reading me way wrong. So instead of just taking me at my word, what do you do...

you tell me I must be a child rape survivor because I don't agree with you.

what a load of horking dishonest putridness.

[LadyHawkAZ]

42. Do you actually read any of what I write?

Or do you just skim for catchphrases and make it up from there?

I told you why I thought that about you, did I not? It had nothing to do with you not agreeing with me; it was from reading your own words. for example, from the last thread I remembered seeing you in:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=149165
"I'm asking whether, if a John knew this, that this woman was raped by her uncle when she was 4, raped for 8 years and it has affected her whole view of what sex is and what self worth is... would that John still take the same 'pleasure' from her"

From this thread:
"some of these women have been abused and have an altered view of life and sexuality because of that. this is not a matter of consenting adults, it is a matter of taking advantage of people whose self esteem has been whittled down by a rapist uncle or dad or brother or neighbour or teacher, etc"
"They don't care that the liklihood that that particular woman is servicing them is because her father raped her when she was 7"

That's awfully detailed, emotional shit and would raise a red flag with any abuse survivor. It was the entire reason I gave your position some respect: I assumed you were also a survivor with a legitimate, personal reason for being concerned. It could also have been a big steaming pile of hyperbole from someone needing to give an indefensible position some kind of legitimacy and emotional appeal- you choose. I would also question why you would find it so insulting that I thought so, since you claim to be advocating for abuse survivors. An insult is only insulting if it's something you find offensive, and I would hope you don't see us as offensive.

To put bluntly what I've been trying for several posts to get through to you: the definition of consenting adult does not change to suit your personal feelings. Every choice we make is based in some form of emotional or mental baggage- this does not make someone else's decision invalid because something bad happened to them. I have not said even once that you hated prostitutes or were disgusted by them. I WILL say that based on your own posts, you do not consider them either mentally competent or equal to you, simply because some have been molested and chose a line of work that you find repulsive (and before you argue with that, let me refer you back to the comment about the skeevy fat guy that was OK to marry but disgusting to just sleep with once). Apparently my giving your motives the benefit of the doubt was in error; I've already apologized for it. I'd now like to know what it is you base your view of consent on, since you've no experience with either prostitution or abuse. Why do you feel that a person is unable to consent, and why only in certain situations? Why are they able to consent to one form of sex but not another? On what do you base your conclusion? I meet all your criteria: am I incompetent? Is my consent valid? Why or why not?

[GoneOffShore]

43. Thank you.

Many have difficulty grasping the point that you make so well.

[LadyHawkAZ]

45. Thanks. To answer your question:

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/30393085/detail.html

"Vice officers made dozens of arrests during Super Bowl week, including 37 for prostitution, 27 for patronizing a prostitute and three for promoting prostitution."

Two of those are being reported elsewhere as possible trafficking cases- both were adult women. I'll reserve judgement till I hear more- could be trafficking, could be trying to get out from under an arrest. The remainder? Consenting adults.

Except for the women, who apparently can't really consent. Except when they can. But even if they can't, it's still jail time for them. For their own good. So they won't be encouraged to go back. To the only job they can now get with a criminal record... Oh, dear... what a fucked up society...

[proverbialwisdom]

9. Must read: 'GIRLS LIKE US' by Rachel LLoyd

Google: http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=girls+like+us+lloyd&psj=1&oq=girls+like+us+lloyd&aq=f&aqi=g1g-b4&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=21345l21345l1l23642l1l1l0l0l0l0l203l203l2-1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=4a14d12abcee4056&biw=1441&bih=608

RECOMMENDED.

[LadyHawkAZ]

10. Have read.

I admire Rachel's work with teens. GEMS is a worthy cause. Equally recommended:
http://issuu.com/gems/docs/26-31_sextrafficking_low

However, Rachel's work focuses on underage trafficking. There is a difference between an exploited child or teen and a consenting adult, which is a point that a lot of people simply refuse to see.

[Whisp]

12. I might be reading you wrong here. but

consenting adults 'choose' to be part of the trafficking sex trade? I always thought trafficking was against the will of the ones exploited, whether of age or under.

[LadyHawkAZ]

17. Yep, you're reading it wrong.

I have no idea where you got that, unless you're equating the entire sex trade with trafficking.

[Whisp]

22. ok then, I misunderstood.

[TheWraith]

19. "To the "bathhouses" where homosexuals exchange favors."? Maybe you'd like to rephrase? nt

[stevenleser]

32. wtf?

[MineralMan]

20. Judging from that blog's advertising, I'm thinking

whoever runs it probably thinks prostitution is just fine. Lousy source for unbiased information, I think.

[GoneOffShore]

26. Violet Blue is a very sex positive columnist.

Obviously a problem for some people.

[MineralMan]

28. I visited the link, thanks.

My comment stands. The site is misogynistic. No thanks.

[GoneOffShore]

41. Interesting comment.

A site run by a sex positive woman is misogynistic.

Hmmm.

[GoneOffShore]

25. By the way - I didn't mean this to be a drive by.

But I'm in the midst of a heavy duty work load.

Posted first thing this AM after reading the Tiny Nibbles column.

[libodem]

30. Sex

Anonymous sex is anonymous sex.
Who is to judge?