What else do they want to know? When will it end?

[BlueCheese]

The news that the NSA is collecting data about every phone call made through Verizon, and very likely every other carrier, while simultaneously ordering that its surveillance be kept secret, is simply outrageous. I have a hard time believing how angry I am about this. What I've always thought of as my birthright freedoms as an American appear to be gone, at least for now.

In a time of peace, under a Democratic president, the federal government has decided that it should know about every single phone call any American makes, domestic or international. It should know where you are when the call was made, who you talked to, and for how long. Who knows what else the government knows, given that it has imposed silence on those from which it demands the data. Does it know the location data provided by your phone even when you're not making calls? Does it know your web history from your ISPs? Your search history from the big search engines? Who you've emailed? The amounts and locations of your credit card transactions? And even if it doesn't know now, does the government think it has the power to get these things if it so chooses? Given this revelation, can anyone be truly confident the government doesn't already know all these things about you?

In the last several decade, we've learned that the government has decided it has the right to hold American citizens indefinitely without trial, to kill American citizens abroad without first charging them with a crime, and now to collect massive amounts of personal data about every American, the overwhelming majority of whom are not even suspected of being complicit in anything. Did the Stasi know as much about ordinary East Germans? Does the Chinese government know as much about its citizens?

With this news, I feel like we've lost something very real as Americans, and we will not get it back until this never-ending so-called war on terrorism is declared over, the AUMF is repealed, and Patriot Act eliminated. Every day until that happens is a day that we are not truly free.

[Tien1985]

1. I think we are finally losing

Our false sense of security.

I can't think of anything that can be done about it, though.

[graham4anything]

2. Disagree.

I use EZ pass when I drive.
I use credit cards for everything to purchase anything
I use supermarket discount card

They already know I purchase Charmin with Aloe.

There is nothing they don't already know.

So it doesn't consume me to worry about any of the above.

I do know that 3000 REAL people died because of terrorists killing them on 9-11.
They actually were real people and they died.
At the hands of bad people.

I know I myself would rather be safe than sorry.

As Ben Franklin said "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".

And wiretapping has been done forever.
Those old enough can recall, Bobby and Jack Kennedy wiretapped Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. (YES they did).

If one sees something suspicious, I know, I myself will report it.
The life I save might just be mine or my families.
Why wouldn't I want to keep them safe?

As Franklin said "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".

So these things don't bother me.

And as Kristofferson wrote "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose".
And as he constantly explained, that meant, if one is absolutely free, then one howls at the moon on the beach, for what
they gave up because the people they wanted to be with are not there. Sorry, I don't want freedom like that.

BY THE WAY
YOU are writing on an international PUBLIC board telling your view on freedom.

excuse me, but you are writing what you opinion is.

That means you have NOT given up one right whatsoever.

And I myself am free to not follow any single word Ron or Rand Paul or the dreaded Oathkeepers say.
Why in the world would I want to? (I think the oathkeepers are the worst of the tea party groups, but that is my opinion and because I am free, I can say that).
BTW, why are the Oath Keepers a tax free group?
They are part and parcel of the unofficial Ron Paul / Rand Paul organization. I consider this group to be one of the most dangerous groups in the nation.

wiki-
Organizational history [edit]
The Oath Keepers were founded on March 2009 by Stewart Rhodes and incorporated in Las Vegas, Nevada as a non-profit corporation.[3][4] Rhodes is a Yale Law School graduate, a former US Army paratrooper, and a former staffer of Congressman Ron Paul.[5] The Oath Keepers as a group have grown to include chapters in many states across America.[6]

[Atman]

3. Graham, YOU are what is wrong with America.

You've simply given up. Life is just a cliche to you.

[graham4anything]

4. and YOU are FREE to say that. So what freedom have you lost? NONE.

Whereas someone like Mr. Trayvon Martin has lost his basic 1st amendment right,
thanks to the vastly misinterpreted 2nd amendment, didn't he?
Even if Zimmy is found guilty, it won't bring back Mr. Martin will it?

It should be stated again and again, Ron and Rand Paul are NOT on the side of anyone who posts here, as they are REPUBLICANS
first and foremost, and extremist republicans second and foremost.

[Atman]

5. What do the Paul idiots, or Trayvon Martin have to with anything?

You've already proudly surrendered all of your rights, waving your American flag as you fall. From your rant, you seem absolutely thrilled to give it all up as long as you're safe from manufactured bogeymen. Count me out. I'm not cowering under my bed in fear.

[graham4anything]

14. 3000 of my fellow people died on 9-11. Manufactured? I don't believe in bogus conspiracy theories.

The NRA is a clear and present danger to MY rights.

The other is just political Ron Paul/ Rand Paul/ hyperbole.

What is funny is that the NRA uses the lines about not cowering in fear, whilst all the time having a gun and bullet to use
against those Mr. Trayvon Martin that they do not like.

[EOTE]

21. Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize they were YOUR people.

In that case, abandon your rights with haste! We need a second Patriot act, one that doesn't have the pretense of preserving liberties like the first one did. It's a damned good thing we have patriots like you throwing away our dangerous liberties to protect us from those scary muslims. Of course, you're many more times likely to be killed by lightning than any form of terrorism, but we should err on the side of safety, right?

[graham4anything]

34. I haven't lost any right. I still buy Charmin with aloe and pay for it with a credit card.

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose (Kristofferson,(c)
and having a terrorist kill 3000 caused freedom to be lost.

And its better to be safe than sorry.

NO right of mine is missing. It is just hyperbole.

Besides, had people not voted for Ralph Nader in New Hampshire, Al Gore would have had 270 without Florida.
and bush wouldn't have come in.

[sibelian]

45. "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"

No. It isn't. That phrase is an aphorism. It sounds pithy but has no real meaning.

Freedom is a measure of your ability to conduct your affairs as you see fit. It is REAL, not rhetorical.

Mechanisms whereby information can been taken from you without your prior knowledge or consent are not placed for your benefit. Your information is your PROPERTY and it is WRONG for people to use it wiuthout your knowledge or consent, whetern they use it for beneficial purposes or otherwise.

Some guy takes your microwave and uses it to cook for the poor people. Lovely! Wait a second. He didn't ask.

Why not?

We can only assume that his purposes are other than benevolent.

[graham4anything]

48. The songwriter has specifically stated what his meaning was. I agree with his own words

and I gave Kristofferson the (c) in his words.

And I conduct my affairs as I wish, and don't care who knows I use Charmin with ALoe and talk on the phone to someone
about what I bought at the supermarket.

I do know that Ronald Reagan took away a number of my friends by doing nothing to combat AIDS for 7 years,
and do know that NOT voting for Jimmy Carter in 1980 led to Ronald Reagan.
I know I did not vote for Ronald Reagan, George Bush41,43 or Jeb.

But I do know others justify that they did not vote for Jimmy Carter.

BTW, they already know everything, therefore, it is nothing new, so you haven't lost anymore than you already did, assuming of course that you think you lost something.

[sibelian]

50. "they already know everything, therefore, it is nothing new" - plain falsehood

... and, whether they do or not, your supposing as much reveals only that you wish to divert attention away from the fact that they shouldn't.

Your explanation of your choice of that ludicrous phrase only further reveals your total lack of interest in its subject.

[graham4anything]

51. No, that is SPECIFIC to what Kristofferson wrote the song about. SPECIFIC

any other interpretation is WRONG.

There is no if in the meaning. It is specific, and he has stated so.
All the other meanings are false.

[EOTE]

57. Sure, that pesky little 4th amendment wasn't doing anything anyway.

Like we EVER had a right to privacy. Just a little clue, it helps to think just a little before posting.

[graham4anything]

58. What right have you lost that you had 1, 2, 5, 10 years ago? nt

[EOTE]

59. That's right, once a certain amount of time has passed, we should stop caring about lost rights.

You are such a good citizen it embarrasses me at times.

[davekriss]

62. The reasonable right to privacy

If you value safety above all else, might I suggest you build a safe room in your basement and lock yourself in? You would then be safe from dark skinned terrorists, home invaders, the incessant propaganda of the TV.

Before giving up this degree of privacy, you might strive to understand the term "blowback" and come to see that there are other ways beside eroding civil liberties to secure safety in our lives.

Perhaps we ought to stop propping up right wing dictators around the world that squash their citizens hunger for freedom, a freedom that interferes with the ability of multinationals to secure profit. Perhaps we should stop subverting left wing, populist governments when they emerge around the world. Hey, maybe closing the School of the Americas in Ft Benning, now called something else to hide its purpose, or - o my gawd, close Guantanamo!!

There are other ways to secure a reasonable level of safety in our lives other than rolling over and surrendering our liberties.

[Paulie]

24. 3000 < * 100:1

Just saying.

[magical thyme]

40. 9,878 of your fellow people were senselessly killed in 2011 by

drunk drivers. And that's just a single year in what is an annual slaughter. http://www.madd.org/statistics/

549,838 of your fellow people were senselessly killed by cancer in 1999. http://www.cancure.org/statistics.htm

~577,000 of your fellow people were senselessly killed by cancer in 2012. http://www.cancer.org/research/cancerfactsstatistics/cancerfactsfigures2012/index

and in 2010, 120,859 of your fellow people were senselessly killed by stupid, evil accidents.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/acc-inj.htm

But yeah, let's protect your fellow people by spying on your phone-sex and my conversations with the Maine Potato Lady. That'll keep us safer...

Personally, I think a nationwide investment in auto-ignition breathalyzers, nutrition and other preventative health care, and personal bubble wrap would be more effective. Less creepy, too.

[dkf]

7. We have lost our right to privacy.

You may not place any value on that but others do.

[Sherman A1]

37. Precisely

I cannot add anything to such an eloquent statement, beyond my total agreement.

[Aerows]

38. Exactly

I value it. And you can bet that if losing your privacy can be exploited by someone to benefit themselves, someone will do it.

That's why this is so dangerous.

[treestar]

44. Problem for most of us is

That we are not really of interest. Those who are of interest, when they do something, who is it again that blames the government?

We bring this all on ourselves. Maybe next time we won't go crazy and let the right wing manipulate us as we did from 911 through 2005.

[Dreamer Tatum]

63. "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"

Good lord, you make zero sense.

[cali]

8. at the risk of overstatement: + a billion

there is no one as Orwellian as our dear little Graham.

[Atman]

13. You can smell Graham's posts without even reading the byline.

The first three posts I made this morning were all in response to graham, before I even realized it. I'm tending to agree...it's performance art. Or a cc mole.

[EOTE]

10. I've said the exact same thing.

I'm wondering if this is some kind of performance art. No person alive could really give so little a damn about their civil liberties. I refuse to believe I share the same air with people so incredibly cowardly that they willingly give up so many of their freedoms simply because a moron president allowed 3,000 to die more than a decade ago. If it's not performance art, however, that person should be incredibly ashamed of him/herself.

[Locrian]

12. sheeple

I tend to avoid that word because it's usually applied to people being tricked. But I think it applies here: someone willing to give up everything for the 'comfort' of a cowardly, bleating, banal existence.

I too wonder if it's performance art - in which case I think there is every reason to be ashamed of him/herself - because they would realize what they are doing. The alternative that they truly believe.... that's just disturbing.

[boilerbabe]

20. he seems like someone wanting to mock obama supporters/dem party loyalists by behaving like the

worst caricature of both.

[Fumesucker]

22. I called it back in January

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2162740

[EOTE]

23. Then it's fairly shitty performance art.

The kind that doesn't inspire thought.

[Fumesucker]

25. Fairly?

Oh, it's not that good.

[sibelian]

46. I think he's genuine.

I think it's fear, pure and simple. The fear of the shrill little guy that sides with the bully in the playground.

[Sherman A1]

6. Dr. Franklin also said

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

[graham4anything]

15. He was talking about doing ALL one can to protect the nation from terrorists and coup'd'etats

which is what Rand and Ron Paul want to do 24/7/365
80% of America does not want to tear the country down like the 20% extremists do.

[sibelian]

47. You can't protect ANYONE from terrorism.

Terrorism doesn't work like that. The only way you can rid the world of terrorism is by removing the context in which it can grow.

[graham4anything]

49. One could stop 100% of all gun crimes in the streets by individuals that aren't law enforcement.

100% can be stopped.

there has been ZERO 9-11 attempts using airplanes that succeeded since 9-11. zero.
that means security has worked.

there could be zero shootings in schools
if one can be 100% sure a gun don't get into the perimeter

and one can make sure of it.

It just hasn't been done, so the crimes continue.

and after all, when one gets right down to it, it is all about the gun/bullet, isn't it?

This is 2013, not 1950 or 1850.
the world is without borders now

therefore different security is needed now, lest anarchy and chaos will prevail.

[sibelian]

53. Terrorism has nothing to do with gun crime.

"there has been ZERO 9-11 attempts using airplanes that succeeded since 9-11. zero.
that means security has worked."

So they'll just change tactics.

Don't you get it?

[graham4anything]

54. tell that to Dr. Tiller. and all the school shootings

and 9 out of 10 things are all with guns

The son of sam could have been stopped after the first one with 2013 security and with more cameras everywhere.
And with a national data base.

[Sherman A1]

55. I must disagree with your interpretation of Franklin's words

I have a completely different take on what those words mean. Yes, there must be some balance in liberty vs security we all understand that. There are trade offs in all parts of life, but I just don't believe Mr. Franklin would think highly of the invasion of privacy which we seem to be experiencing. You of course are more than entitled to your opinion as neither of us can directly question him to get his thoughts on today's world.

[graham4anything]

56. Then why did he say "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?"

The trouble with quoting a famous person is they have more than one quote in almost all cases that puts the meaning different.

One reason I like the Kristofferson quote is that he himself has gone out of his way to explain his meaning of his own words as he knows there are different interpretations of it. And obviously, he himself knows what he meant for that specific song.

[Sherman A1]

60. You have stated it so eloquently....

"The trouble with quoting a famous person is they have more than one quote in almost all cases that puts the meaning different."

I am not going to argue or debate with you... I am going to disagree with you.

[Hissyspit]

9. Ick.

[Earth_First]

11. I cannot believe that this website would allow a libertarian such as yourself to host

LBN, GD, and GD: Politics 2013.

I honestly hope that you have ZERO input on moderated/juried threads in your capacity as host.

[graham4anything]

16. This is AD HOMINEM and as you know I am NOT a fan of 3rd parties, Ron/Rand libertarians or JillStein

I can't believe those people are welcome here on a DEMOCRATIC site supporting DEMOCRATIC candidates
not rand and ron Paul.

[Earth_First]

17. No, just their policies... n/t

[graham4anything]

18. No, that is NOT true. They are against the Obama adminstration. I am 100% FOR anything he does.

[Paulie]

28. He's for deportation of the parents of minor US citizens

He's for meeting the republicans half way from their corner of insanity instead of starting in the middle.

He's for dogs over cats.

[graham4anything]

30. Rand Paul will not get you what you want, niether will Michelle Bachmann or Jill Stein.

[Paulie]

35. Don't change the subject.

Supporting Obama 100% means something completely different. So when his actions echo those you say are worse then perhaps the 100% number needs to fall lest we are no better than those we dislike.

[graham4anything]

39. 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%

Rand and Ron don't want peace. They are just culling voters by saying vague things and backing Pot.
However, I bet Ron/Rand doesn't smoke it himself. Just trying to divide democratic voters by saying they do
and they would bring back the 1950s, not 2013.

[Fumesucker]

26. At least half your posts are nothing but pure Ad Hom

[sibelian]

42. It's nothing like an "AD HOMINEM".

The phrase means something graham, go and look it up. Bandying it about in capitals serves only to reval your ignorance.

[hughee99]

61. I can't believe there are people here who don't know you will support the President on anything.

I have no doubt if a video came out of the President juggling cats, you'd be telling everyone what good exercise it is and how the kittens really love it.

I may not agree with you on several things, but you are absolutely not a "3rd party kind of person".

[sibelian]

41. These are positions you have to adopt in order to convince yourself that everything's OK.

What you don't appear to understand is that with every increase in the availability of your personal information to people whose actions you can't affect the likelihood increases that they will use that information for purposes that are not in your interests just because there's MORE of them.

Do you believe the rise in identity theft is coincidental?

You stop Governments from taking your freedoms away by denying them the tools to do so at the outset, not at some indeterminate time in the future when it seems convincing that they might be in danger.

When it comes to governments, the only valid approach is to assume at all times that one's freedoms are always in danger.

Freedom isn't an emotional reaction to a flag, it's a measure of your ability to conduct your affairs as you see fit without interference.

The recording of information about you, graham, without your being able to affect what happens to that information, is interference. This position is not a means to an end but an end in itself.

Your information isn't theirs. They have decided it is.

You are too frightened to stop them.

[90-percent]

19. My not intellectual response

I was taught as a youth that American values are really great and should be nurtured and cherished. These values are to be found mostly in our wonderful Constitution.

The Constitution America has fought many wars defending. Think of what America would be like if we lost WW2, for example.

Ever since 9-11, our very own government has been dismantling the Constitution in the name of fighting "The War on Terror".

So, our current times of shredding the Constitution are, in a way, turning America and all we used to stand for, into a model of what we would be like If Germany and Japan had indeed won WW2. Only this time, it's our own elected leaders that are dismantling our Constitution, and thus our values, instead of "the enemy".

Terrorism is bad, and dying in a collapsing skyscraper is pretty damn horrifying, but democracy is about doing the most good for the most people. Therefore, we should go after stuff that does the most damage; cancer, auto accidents, heart disease, poverty, obesity, and diet (plus a lot of other thing I forgot) kills a hell of a lot more of us than terrorists do!

Our response should be proportional to the magnitude of the damage, and the amount of Americans killed by terrorism is miniscule compared to the other big stuff listed.

Not to mention what the 500,000 American Dead of WW2 must be thinking about our country now; "I gave my life in WW2 to protect "the American way of life" and you modern cretins are letting your politicians dismantle the constitution right in front of your eyes in the name of fighting "terror". All of you people in the present day that willfully let the Constitution die are dishonoring the 500,00 souls that died protecting our freedoms. You will now be living the lives such spineless, fearful, dishonorable people deserve."

-90% Jimmy

[zeemike]

31. Yep

And we have plenty of people who want the new Fascism to work, and will try their best to make us afraid of the terrorist and convince us that we should become one with the Borg.

[graham4anything]

32. FDR should have entered WW2 years early. It caused millions to die before he entered.

and taking LBJ out in 1968, SPECIFICALLY caused the war to last another 6 years, thanks to the protesters.

[zeemike]

27. This is not a time of peace

Peace ended on 911 when we adopted a state of permanent war...and just as Orwell predicted the war is not intended to be won, but to keep the PTB in power and insure that we all live in a constant state of fear.
Once you corral people with the fence of fear you can do what you want with them...and they are doing just that.

[randome]

29. This thread is full of juvenile trash talk. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[forestpath]

33. We'll never get back the rights that are being taken from us...Obama is

continuing and expanding what Bush started and like with Bush, the "war on terror' is just the excuse he gives.

[Smarmie Doofus]

36. The slope is way more than slippery and the situation is way worse than Stasi.

Due to a constellation of factors: the most obvious the technology ... ummm... "improvements", and the nauseating, delusional self-righteousness and sense of entitlement of the human automatons doing the data-mining, etc.

Kick and Rec.

[Safetykitten]

43. Verizon to offer "Certified Patriot Plan". You are checked for security by government and...

with that plan you are cleared by the government, and get 900 anytime minutes, unlimited text, and 5G of data. No calls monitored.

[darkangel218]

64. Omg I'm so gullible. i went and googled it

:/