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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy I Didn't Work for the NSA
Way back in 1968, I was an E-4 in the USAF, which had trained me as a Russian linguist to do some stuff I can't talk about. That I was a linguist/analyst is on my DD-214, so I can tell people that, though. After I returned from a 15 month tour in Turkey, I was posted to Ft. Meade, MD, where I took a cubical seat in the NSA building. I sat next to a guy who was doing the same thing I was supposed to be doing, but was a GS-15, while I was getting $256/month as a USAF E-4. I took some umbrage at that, and limited my contribution to what I considered being worth $256/month.
In the meantime, anti-war protests in DC were on-going, so I spent my off hours in Georgetown, helping plan them and participating in them. While at work in the NSA building, I poked around, listened, volunteered for interesting things, and learned a lot about what they were doing. It was interesting stuff, and I like interesting stuff.
As the time approached when my enlistment period in the USAF was coming to an end, I got a job offer from the NSA. I'd start as a GS-13 on the day after my discharge from the USAF, doing the same thing I was already supposed to be doing, but for a decent salary. I considered it. I turned it down. Although it was an interesting job, doing what it was that I was doing, there was other stuff that the organization was doing that I didn't care for much at all. The other stuff wasn't what I'd be doing if I took the job offer, but it was still happening. It didn't seem to me to be something I wanted to be connected with. It was one thing to be pretending to work there on assignment from the USAF. It was another to make it a career.
So, I said, "Thanks, but no." When my discharge from the USAF came, I got in my 1959 Volvo and headed back to California, and went in a completely different direction, or in several different directions.
What's going on now with data collection and mining is not a new thing. It's been going on for a very long time, and with many of the same difficult questions arising. The technology has improved enormously, allowing increasing data collection and mining, to the point that government agencies can now collect and mine just about every communication being made. But, the principle remains the same, and the questions are the same questions that were being asked way back in the late 1960s. The answers are all still as equivocal as they were, and I still strongly disapprove of some of what those agencies do.
When I left the USAF and Ft. Meade, I signed an awful lot of papers, agreeing to an awful lot of things. Mostly, I agreed that I couldn't talk about anything regarding any details of anything I knew or had learned. I also agreed to inform someone of all international travel for a period of five years, supplying a complete itinerary at least three months in advance. I decided to simply not travel outside the US for that period. There are still places I am not allowed to go at all. I still can't discuss the nature of what I was doing there, or any details about the NSA that I might have learned while there. The data collection stuff is public knowledge. The details are not.
It's been 44 year since I drove away from Ft. Meade. It is not a decision I have ever had any second thoughts about. It was not a place I wanted to work. I was there, and then I was not. Life went on for me, and many thousands of people continued to work there. I simply wasn't willing to be one of them.
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,694 posts)You kept your wits about you and that was way smart.
Thanks for posting.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)was to not sit in such a place for many years. I had adventures to pursue. The other part was an ethical issue.
LuvNewcastle
(16,855 posts)If you'd stayed in and advanced in the agency, you'd necessarily have been involved in some of those programs that you found distasteful. It's better to go through life with a fairly clean conscience. Also, I've been told by others that it's hard to detach yourself from intelligence agencies. They're kind of like the mafia; you're never really free from them.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)It wasn't, as they said then, "my bag." So I bailed.
rug
(82,333 posts)MineralMan
(146,329 posts)decided that my major, Electronics Engineering, wasn't really what I wanted to do, and for other reasons. I spent some time driving around the US, and went to Selma, Alabama just in time to hear Dr. King speak after the march. Shortly after that, I ran out of money, and returned to California, where I settled in Santa Barbara and found work.
In the meantime, my draft status changed to 1A. Given the times, the likelihood of getting a draft notice was high. So, I visited the USAF recruiter in Santa Barbara and discussed the issue with the recruiter. I took their multiple choice exam. The recruiter was impressed with the results, and agreed to my proposal that I would contact him if I received a draft notice. Why the USAF? Because my father had been a WWII B-17 pilot. We make decisions based on odd things. Besides, I prefer to make such decisions myself, rather than let others decide for me. The USAF seemed more flexible than the US Army, somehow.
A couple of months later, I got a letter inviting me to report for a physical from my draft board. Instead, I reported to the recruiter, who put me on a bus to Los Angeles. The next day, I was in the USAF. I took another test in Basic Training that demonstrated some linguistic skills, so the USAF decided to send me to Syracuse University for a year in their immersion Russian Language school. As a 19 year old kid, it was all very interesting. I excelled in that school, because language and linguistic skills proved to be a strength I wasn't aware of.
So, that's how I ended up in the USAF and sitting in the NSA building. I was still a kid. I grew quite a bit in those four years, as do most people, if they're presented with interesting things.
Thanks for your interest.
xtraxritical
(3,576 posts)MineralMan
(146,329 posts)My Russian is pretty shaky, now, 44 years later. Halting, even. I still have a Zippo lighter with this on it:
xtraxritical
(3,576 posts)Come and keep your comrade warm, Back In The USSR!
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)I'd have to check to see if I even can go there. Since the CCCP is no more, I'm not sure if the old travel restrictions still apply. But, I'm not going to ask, because I don't have any plans to visit.
xtraxritical
(3,576 posts)FarCenter
(19,429 posts)When the DoD has been using it for years to spot talent and place people in jobs they are suited for, often in spite of academic credentials or lack thereof.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)There are many kinds of testing. There is testing that discovers what you know, and there is testing to find out what your talents may be. I don't disapprove of testing at all. In fact, I think standardized testing can be very useful, if it is used properly. We had standardized tests even when I was in grammar school, way back in the 1950s. It was used to group students in my small town elementary school according to their abilities. There were three tracks in that school, and in junior high and high school. The results from that tracking were quite good.
I don't believe I have ever said that testing doesn't work. It does, but it has to be used to establish teaching methods that take advantage of the testing results, not to do anything else.
But this thread isn't about standardized testing.
Funny thing about that language aptitude test in the USAF. As it happened, it was a test that was included in an upper division Psychology class on testing I took as a freshman in college. As part of the class, we took that test, and analyzed the results. Imagine my surprise when the same test turned up in Basic Training. Anyhow, I did have a strong aptitude for language skills, but I had seen the test before.
siligut
(12,272 posts)Seems like there are two sets of people now, those who monitor and those who are monitored.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)MineralMan
(146,329 posts)I agreed to their security limitations. I keep my agreements, so I'm sure they lost interest in me quickly. Out of curiosity, I obtained my FBI file in the 1970s. It was interesting, but not very large. Nothing I did there was harmful in any way to anyone.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)I tried to get mine a few years ago before I retired. I sent in a FOIA request with a form and format that I found on line that had previously been successful for others. The answer I got back was that I was not permitted access to my file, and it wasn't covered under FOIA due to some waiver I had signed back in the 80's that was open ended. I gave up.
Did you go through a FOIA request or some other route?
Thanks.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)It took a few months, but I did receive it. It was interesting, but surprisingly small, given my activities. The only really interesting part was the investigation report on my security clearance. I had no idea how thorough those were, even for a 19 year old kid. I talked to some of the people they had interviewed during it, after getting the file. They remembered the guy in the suit who asked them questions about me. Some laughed about it. They thought it was funny that the FBI came to my little home town and questioned people.
SeattleVet
(5,479 posts)I was in computer repair in the Air Force. Did 3 years at Ft. Meade, repairing everything from absolute state-of-the-art custom-made systems to antiques that eventually wound up headed to the Smithsonian. When my time was up they offered to convert me to civilian, and I also had orders to a small site in Korea, to work on some 20+ year old equipment. I chose to decline, turn down the assignment, and leave the Air Force rather than serve under Reagan for any more time. Did 12 years total, and got a very nice position at a major NY financial institution doing system management when I got out.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)SeattleVet
(5,479 posts)I was in the IT department at Bankers Trust, which was bought out by Deutschebank many years ago. I worked on the 38th floor of 130 Liberty Street - the big black building that the south tower of the World Trade Center damaged when it came down. Did 8 years there, then moved out to Seattle and did 17 years as a government contractor at NOAA, as a network manager. All courtesy of the training and job experience I got in the Air Force.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)Good decision, I think.
Shivering Jemmy
(900 posts)I'm sure I will again, depending on the nature of the problem they are posing. I don't find them particularly nefarious. The size and scope of what they do is more troublesome than the actual nature of what they do for me personally.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)We all make different decisions, and for different reasons.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)MM, I had a somewhat similar experience. I worked with or for the NSA in the early 70's and again in the early 80's. I was Army Signal Corp officer and worked unattended sensors and covert communications relays on a certain trail in SEA. In the 80's I was back (as you know, once you are in that business it kinda sticks to you) working certain overhead ELINT collection. I was in the basement of the black building for awhile. Can't say exactly when or what I was doing. I'll bet I know where you were and what you were doing in Northern Turkey. I almost got sent there also, but managed to escape the clutches of that community before actually deploying. I went off on a slightly different career track, and only occasionally got pulled back into that world. I retired after a forty year career in 2010, and like you, still have restrictions on some travel and activities.
Anyway, I told you all that just for background to concur with you that this data collection that everyone is all upset about has been going on since the '40's. Whether it was authorized by statute or not, it has always been going on. If the agency wants something they will get it. If it is too politically hot to do it with our assets, then we get a convenient ally to do it for us. The new technology has made it more efficient and able to record and store much more data, but the NSA has been able to record pretty much any conversation it has wanted for many decades, with or without a court order. It just seems that they want a LOT more nowadays.
And Hi to my old buds at No Such Agency that are reading this.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)have been involved at some point in their lives. Everywhere I've lived, I've run into people who seem to have lived parallel lives in some way. It's a big world, but with many coincidences.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)I was once approached by the NSA to come work there, and the only thing they'd tell me about the job is that I'd only ever have to work 40 hours a week: no overtime. Seriously.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)doing the same things I was already doing, or at least sort of doing. There is a difference between already being inside the building and applying for a job from the outside of the building. I already had the security clearance level I needed for the job, and was actually sitting in the same chair I'd have been sitting in if I had taken the offer. They offered it to me because I was already trained and was quite good at doing the job, when I bothered to do it. I gave them $256/month worth of work, which wasn't much. The rest of the time, I screwed around. They knew that, and I didn't make any secret of it. The civilians working in that office understood my attitude completely, and left me to my own plan. When they needed my particular skills, I was glad to help, but I wasn't working too hard.
pinto
(106,886 posts)Sometime I'll post my draft experience. Suffice to say it ended in a room with one military rep, a piece of paper and a bus ticket home.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)I considered other options than enlisting in the USAF, but decided that I'd do what I did. It was interesting, to say the least.
pinto
(106,886 posts)During the VietNam war years there was a psych in Boston commonly referred to as "Dr. Feel Good". Adamantly anti-war. Routinely provided some kind of dx, for a price, that helped one get a 4F deferment. Others in my family had gone that route.
As I approached high school graduation I made cursory explorations of my options. Cursory being the key word. My lottery number was borderline. I waffled on the hope I wouldn't be called. After graduation I got my draft notice. Faced with the blunt reality of the notice I decided to see the doc.
He had been busted by DOD, license to practice revoked and out of business. So I got on the bus one early AM with a lot of other kids from my area. Went to Boston Navy Yard for the induction process.
Along the way "I've got gum on my shoe" popped up in my thoughts. It was a phrase we used to step out of a conversation, situation, etc. Meaningless yet it paused everything at times and allowed for an exit. I blindly chose that as a "plan".
Throughout the whole process from the initial paperwork to standing in my skivvies in the med line I only had one response, written or verbal. "I've got gum on my shoe". Eventually I was pulled aside and interviewed. Told to wait, I sat until I was directed to another room - the guy with the piece of paper and the bus ticket. All he said was "Go home".
Got an official 4F notice in the mail shortly after.
Not sure what role "gum in my shoe" played. Was born with neurofibromatosis, which at that time was called von Recklinghausen's Syndrome and poorly understood, even in medical circles. That may have been the actual determining factor. I don't know.
(aside) I've thought in hindsight I could have chosen the USAF. Both my uncles served in WWII. Yet, I was what 19? I made the choice I made at the time.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)I've heard many stories of how people dealt with the draft in one way or another. Yours is a new one, and very creative. I might have done something similar, but I was out of ideas about what to do with my life, so four years of stepping away from making a decision seemed fairly attractive to me. I was uninterested in military service, per se, but was in an aimless period of my young life, so letting the USAF decide what I would do sounded like a plausible way to kill a few years. As it turned out, it served well in that. After my enlistment, I returned to college, switched my major to English, and decided to do pretty much whatever was appealing to me after that. I ended up doing many things, but writing was the common element in all of them.
I know that I have never second-guessed anyone's decision on how to deal with that draft business. Some chose one way and others chose others. In the late teens, I don't think many people are well-equipped to make life-changing decisions well. So, our youthful choices often don't matter much in the course of our lives over the long term.
I do know that the Vietnam War sucked, big-time. All of the guys I knew in that time period had that hanging over their heads. It was not a good thing in any way.
pinto
(106,886 posts)MineralMan
(146,329 posts)If anyone wonders about my slackerhood, I was still kept busy. The security clearance I held was almost all-inclusive, and someone in the building always needed a dogs-body to bring coffee and run errands. Since I could pretty much see anything and go anywhere, based on that clearance level, and since I was a lowly E-4, I played the dogs-body or gopher role a lot during my time in the building. And I was always willing, since I'm always interested in interesting stuff. So, when anyone needed someone who had a high-level security clearance to do menial stuff at a meeting or exercise, I often got summoned.
That led to some very interesting days in some very interesting surroundings. At one point, I found myself being introduced to Richard M. Nixon. The introduction went, "Mr. President, this is Sgt. MineralMan. If you need anything, he will get it for you." Being the polite individual my mother taught me to be, I said, "Good morning, Mr. President." Then, I brought him a cup of coffee. I wish I could write about some of those interesting days, but I can't, and never will be able to.
LiberalArkie
(15,728 posts)The funny thing is, the company I was working for 20 years later got a contract to work on PBX's at military bases.
Naturally everyone that had anything to do with it had to be cleared. 5 of us put in the paper work, I was cleared about 2 weeks later and everyone else about 4 - 5 months later.
They say they don't hold on to that information?
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)in later years that they were so cavalier about giving 19 and 20 year olds security clearances that were at an extremely high level. It didn't really seem to me at the time to make much sense. While in Turkey, what I was doing wasn't needed during the overnight shift. We worked rotating shifts, so the overnight shift was part of the rotation. It turned out that another body was needed to work in a locked, windowless room with its own armed guard in the building where I worked, and I was the only guy who didn't have an assignment during those hours, so I was the obvious choice.
That room, though, required a different clearance level, a couple of steps higher than the top-level one we all had. In a week, I was cleared to work in that room. I never figured out what it was that made me someone who should have that clearance level, and the time was so short for the clearance to come through, I had no idea what the process might have been.
Anyhow, clearances follow you around and tend to stay in effect. It's funny.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)moondust
(20,005 posts)1. Were you aware of any "spying on Americans" going on at NSA around the time you were there?
2. What was your general impression of the people you knew who worked there, military or civilian? Aggressive authoritarian types? Militarists? Rabid anti-communists? Right-wingers? Regular folks just making a living? Do you think the people you knew there would have objected to or protested "spying on Americans" or just gone along with it for fear of losing their jobs?
(I realize it was >40 years ago and you probably haven't given it much thought in the interim.)
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)1. Not my area. So, I have no answer on that one.
2. Most people who worked there were civilians. Nerdy, in general, talented, and hard-working. I had not much to do with anything outside the areas where I was involved, and have no information on any other programs. That stuff would have had a classification I wasn't cleared for. Very compartmented that agency is.
moondust
(20,005 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Or, hey, we could develop our own sign language, that would work!
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[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
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steve2470
(37,457 posts)If you can't say, I understand.