Look no terrorist is going to kill as many Americans a year as the gun goons

[malaise]

but the same folks defending the invasion of privacy for 'national security' (read as vested special interests) do not even want a data base to prevent criminals and mentally unstable folks from purchasing weapons.

There is more to fear from gun goons than from any amorphous notion of terrorism.
The only thing being protected across this globe is the fugging market and the criminal banks.

[xchrom]

1. du rec.

[malaise]

3. Morning sis

[xchrom]

5. morning!

[malaise]

6. Ha!

Is that Snowdon in drag?

[xchrom]

14. he asked whether i thought polka dots and leopard print were too much...

i said -- of course not!

[malaise]

16. ROFL

[bobclark86]

22. Oh, that's trashy...

everyone knows it's tiger stripes with polka dots (too many spots that clash otherwise).

[xchrom]

27. I am nothing...if not Trashy.

[Democracyinkind]

2. This is a very good point.

Unfortunately, snooping on the American people is good business.

Protecting Americans, not so much.

[malaise]

12. Someone should ask John Boehner why he described Snowdon as a traitor

but has never had a harsh word against Wayne LaPierre. Indeed LaPierre is one of the heroes of the ReTHUG party.

[reformist2]

4. Excellent point.

[In_The_Wind]

7. Kickin' it for: Ain't that the truth!

[madokie]

8. Spot on

A big ass rec from me
Rhetorical question. Why is everything 'big ass' with me when in actuality I have right the opposite??

[malaise]

9. ROFL

[el_bryanto]

10. That is a strong argument

Even with the references to Gun Goons - but it sort of works both ways - I would argue that we need to take sensible steps to protect ourselves from gun violence and we need to take sensible steps to protect ourselves from terrorists.

Bryant

[malaise]

11. Define terrorists n/t

[el_bryanto]

13. I would define terrorists as any organization, foreign or domestic, that uses targeted killings

in which the goal is to kill civilians, to effect political or societal change. So those guys who assassinate doctors who perform abortions would be on the list.

Some would argue that the United States is a terrorist organization - I would argue that they do not purposefully target civilians as a policy - but the shocking loss of civilian lives in some of our actions is reprehensible.

Bryant

[malaise]

15. That's a good definition

The problem is that for more than a few Western governments, the goalposts shift at will, so that anyone who does not accept their view of reality as the only possible solution can be defined as a terrorist.

These days the West is prepared to overthrow governments covertly, overtly or even fomenting civil wars to ensure that their 'ally' is in charge.
It cannot be that there are only a few sovereign states on this planet. The US will today is not any more sacrosanct or honorable than was the dogma of the 19th and 20th century British imperialists. Indeed the Brits are confessing to their reign of terror in places like Kenya.

[el_bryanto]

17. The problem is that's a third discussion

We can talk about the need for stronger gun control. We can talk about what level of surveillance is acceptable to protect United States citizens. Or we can talk about United States foreign policy, which has some real problems.

Unless the overall argument is that the United States is a sick society, which I guess might be the real argument.

Bryant

[malaise]

18. Actually I think there are very few

Last edited Wed Jun 12, 2013, 10:55 AM - Edit history (1)

'well societies' on this planet. I live in a very sick one.

I do agree with you that these are three separate topics but sick is the word.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely whether it's British, American, German, etc. It breeds arrogance and hubris.

[RC]

20. But our government does target civilians as a policy.

Almost none on those so-called terrorist we kill are in any countries military. They are civilians, with jobs, families, a home - At least till we blow the home up - sometime in the middle of the night.
The main difference between being killed by a suicide bomber and a drone, is the method of delivery. I doubt the victims really care much.

[el_bryanto]

23. I disagree with your assessment, but I see where you are coming from. nt

[ErikJ]

19. almost 40,000 a year

in the US die from guns.

[nineteen50]

21. And they are

the power elite meta-data mining is being done for.

[Fuddnik]

24. Or, for that matter, corporations killing workers.

Think of how many lives could be saved if OSHA had teeth, and 10% of the funding Homeland Security has.

[hack89]

25. Registering gun owners makes sense.

A firearms identity card should be required to purchase guns an ammo. It should apply to private sales - make such an ID card required for all sales. Make training a requirement to get one would make a huge difference.

Couple that database to a database of people that are ineligible to.own guns and you have a tool to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people. Putting mental health data into this database would go a long way towards reducing gun deaths considering two thirds of gun deaths are suicides.

[Just Saying]

26. I'm not necessarily defending

The Patriot Act, I just don't see how a law passed in 2001 by Congress is a big scandal for President Obama now.

And I'm for a data base and background checks for weapons.

[Sheepshank]

28. Does the Gov't use surveillance to gather data on some extreme hate militia groups?

It seems I have read several news releases in the last few years where phone and e-mail were used to arrest and disarm some extremist groups.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/28/arrests-alleged-militia-activity-midwest/

Seven men and one woman believed to be part of the group called Hutaree were arrested over the weekend after raids in Michigan, Indiana and Ohio. The ninth suspect was arrested Monday night after a search in southern Michigan and was expected to be arraigned Tuesday.

FBI agents moved quickly against Hutaree because its members were planning an attack sometime in April, prosecutors said. Members had been undergoing paramilitary training, including learning how to shoot guns and make bombs, since 2008, according to an indictment. Authorities seized guns in the raids but would not say whether they found explosives.

Prosecutors said suspected Hutaree ringleader, 44-year-old David Brian Stone of Clayton, identified law enforcement officers as potential targets. He and other members discussed setting off bombs at a police funeral, using a fake 911 call to lure an officer to his death, killing an officer after a traffic stop, or attacking the family of an officer, according to the indictment.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2013/05/07/reported-minnesota-militia-member-arrested-in-terror-plot/

“The FBI believes that a terror attack was disrupted by law enforcement personnel and that the lives of several local residents were potentially saved,” the agency said in a statement.

A federal criminal complaint says “agents conducting the search located several items including Molotov cocktails, suspected pipe bombs and firearms.” The suspect was arrested at his home, which is about ¾ of a mile from his father’s home, where the explosive devices were found.

The explosive devices — some packed with nails and others types of potentially lethal shrapnel — were detonated nearby by a bomb squad.

We honestly don't know the full scope and breadth of activities foiled by gunmen vs. international terrorists. To attempt to compare the success rates of killings as the reason to move focus from terrorists to gun deaths (until the 2nd A issues and gun regulation issues are established) is extremley silly. I find it amusing when I read on thise types of threads that since only a handful of international terrorists were successful that means surveillance should be cut off

[malaise]

30. I have no problem with watching hate groups

None whatsoever. It has stopped more than a few attacks and assassinations

[rrneck]

29. Kick for alliteration.

Last edited Wed Jun 12, 2013, 02:31 PM - Edit history (1)

So, what is a "gun goon" anyway? Terrorists are pretty clearly defined but "gun goon" isn't even in the Urban Dictionary yet. May be a glitch though, the Google entry for "gun goon" in UD says, Someone who sneaks gun talk politics into most any topic of discussion. And it's the first entry, so there's that.

I heard on Diane Rehm this morning how they were only tracking "metadata", which is public knowledge and quite benign. So what is "metadata" and what does it tell the NSA? Well, it's a record of who you call, text, or email. There is no evidence they have collected the content of those communications that I know of. The NSA obviously thinks this information is useful or they wouldn't be collecting it. But what information are they actually collecting? They are collecting a record of your relationships with others. They know who you know. And the last I heard they will keep that data forever. Now, that information is useless to counter an immanent threat unless it is used immediately, so why keep it? And if you're trying to solve a crime since relationships are transient and they are ostensibly not collecting content, the older the data gets the less useful it will become. It seems to me that collecting and keeping metadata would be most useful when someone wanted to ask you questions like, "Are you now or have you ever been a member of...?" That's pretty scary.

Now, it's pretty obvious that gun registration won't work without chain of custody documentation. If you transfer a gun you have to be required to document it or they won't be able to prosecute anybody for improper transfer. And your average gun lasts about a hundred years, so any record of chain of custody is forever. So now you have an object with a unique serial number that is associated, through documentation of transfer, to everyone that has owned it. It's a tag, just like a phone bill or an IP address. It's a record of a relationship. Only much more personal and specific. You can loan a cell phone or a laptop, but loaning guns is a no no.

So, when we look at the term "gun goon" again, it starts to look like the term "terrorist". I said "pretty clearly defined" above because even the ubiquitous term "terrorist" is fungible.

The use of the label "terrorist" is often controversial or subjective, since one person's terrorist may be another's "freedom fighter", and vice versa depending on somebody's personal ideology of beliefs.

See how easily the issue flips depending on ideology? You're a right wing fascist loon if you defend NSA spying, but every good liberal supports firearms registration OR you're a left wing gun grabber if you support firearm registration, but collecting metadata is perfectly legal and keeps our country safe. And the talking heads, bloggers, and other assorted bloviaters clamber up another rung on the ladder to onepercentdom by telling you what you want to hear in exchange for your right to privacy. And they are able to do that because the one percent owns the bulk of that communications network, and ain't nobody tracking that.

[MichaelSoE]

31. knr