Here's the problem: Even if you stop the NSA surveillance now, how do you prevent it in the future?

[The Stranger]

Apparently, if you believe them, Congress didn't know about the program. Now that they presumably just learned about it, they are going to set in motion legislation to rein it in or undo it.

But the results of this simply cannot be tracked and verified. You have to take their word for it. Worse, even if they shut it down in one place (NSA), it could be launched again in another. The government -- and its contractors -- are too big.

Electronic surveillance -- by its very nature -- isn't something that ordinary people can detect, and therefore prevent.

So that it's very existence was revealed becomes even more important. It's a form of eternal recurrence. Essentially, even if Congress or the courts or the people somehow shut this surveillance enterprise down, another would inevitably spring up.

And you wouldn't even know about it.

[alsame]

1. That toothpaste is never

going back into the tube. Never, no matter what they tell us.

[randome]

2. How would you EVER know if your phone is being bugged, your trash being cataloged?

Laws prevent nothing, they only serve as a deterrent for those who care. Would you make a law that forbids spying? Ever?

Right now, the law says data cannot be accessed without a legal warrant. Until we see evidence that this is not the case, why worry about it?

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[geek tragedy]

3. Make it more difficult to get vacuumed up. nt

[pnwmom]

4. Congress does know about it -- they just didn't know about the false details

because they were false.

But you are perfectly right. Any change that occurs now in the Obama administration can be completely undone in any future administration.

The technology is what has made this all possible, and the technology isn't going away -- it's being perfected.

[reformist2]

5. More and more people are going to go off the grid, or at least cut back sharply.

[think]

6. Right now US Senators can't even tell us the Fisa court has ruled that the NSA has violated the law

without getting clearance. (Bold added for emphasis.):

Justice Department Fights Release of Secret Court Opinion Finding Unconstitutional Surveillance

~Snip~

But in July 2012, Wyden was able to get the Office of the Director of National Intelligence to declassify two statements that he wanted to issue publicly. They were:

* On at least one occasion the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court held that some collection carried out pursuant to the Section 702 minimization procedures used by the government was unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment.

* I believe that the government's implementation of Section 702 of FISA [the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act] has sometimes circumvented the spirit of the law, and on at least one occasion the FISA Court has reached this same conclusion.....

Full article:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/justice-department-electronic-frontier-foundation-fisa-court-opinion

This can change. America can put an end to the era of secret law:

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-senate-bill-nsa-disclosure-20130611,0,4687672.story

It's not perfect. But it's much better than what the fuck is currently going on IMO....

[The Stranger]

7. Agreed, but I'm speaking of the nature of electronic surveillance.

By its very nature, it is going on (we now know) but cannot be detected by anyone except those directly involved.

It is going to be perfected after this episode, and will become even harder to detect, monitor, regulate.

Any law that you pass is going to be powerless to stop it because of this.

[think]

9. I'm a bit more optimistic but completely understand your concerns

Electronic surveillance is pervasive in this modern society yet I hold out hope for the white hats who; with the opportunity to disclose abuses of this surveillance without fear of insane retaliatory practices written into law; might be able to keep some checks and balances on the system.

One can hope if nothing else.....

[blkmusclmachine]

8. .

.