I want to welcome all of the new posters who have shown up recently

[snooper2]

Sorry this "spying scandal" isn't shaping up to what you may have heard on some other talk radio outlets and a few crazy people who have youtube channels, but. We hope you stay around and discuss other topics of importance!



Like, climate change, that's real and we should have ongoing discussions about it-

Health Care, one place where the President needs to do more because I think these insurance companies have fucked us over long enough- And drug companies, they need some reform-

And taxes, fucks like Mitt Romney should never pay under 40%- time to look at all these thousands and thousands of deductions

[FSogol]

1. This: "Sorry this "spying scandal" isn't shaping up to what you may have heard"

could be pinned as the welcome message.

[Agschmid]

17. Hey did you hear the new amazing revelation!

We spied on other countries as well... The horror.

[VanillaRhapsody]

28. The oath he took to even get his job....prevents him from admitting such...

lying when signing that oath is a crime...

[Agschmid]

37. What are you talking about... it makes no sense.

I guess I should have added to my previous post huh?

[VanillaRhapsody]

43. Oh k....gotcha!

[NCTraveler]

2. Now that is how you do passive aggressive.

Job well done.

[JDPriestly]

11. What was passive about it?

I note that, with the exception of the usual suspects, most of the people defending the NSA surveillance extremist program have low post counts. It's really funny. I hope they at least spend some of the money NSA pays them in salaries on donating to DU.

[Android3.14]

24. Yup.

Passive aggressive, the first outlet for people others ignore for a reason.
Kind of sad.

[lpbk2713]

3. You could have found a spot for *Benghazi* in your subject line.

Guaranteed to get attention from any who may spend any time at the other side.
Another one would be *Obamacare*, Bachmann has all but worn that one out.

[giftedgirl77]

21. Bahaha nope Bohner's still using

the Obamacare bs, he sent out a letter to young voters attempting to highlight why ACA needs to be repealed (38's the charm), why the baggers plan for student loans is the best, & why can't anyone see howmuch they are trying to help the younger generation.

Just more of the same bs, it's a sad day in the world when this is what represents us.

[JDPriestly]

23. And our government is spending incredible amounts of money,

a disproportionate share of our tax money, on this surveillance and on x-ray or whatever machines plus the salaries for the people who man the x-ray machines at airports. And the numbers of people who just "might" be terrorists increases incrementally every time we send a drone or drop a bomb. There is something stupid going on here.

Keeping Americans safe is the most important job for our government. But the most important work that needs to be done to keep Americans safe is to provide affordable healthcare and medicine and GOOD jobs. That means manufacturing our own products to be sold in our country and educating our children without making them into life-long indentured servants and feeding all of us.

Free trade is making us less secure because it makes us less independent.

We have to have shoes to be able to walk outside our houses safely. And if we have to import almost all of our shoes, we are dependent on the countries that make our shoes. Our independence and therefore our security depends on having industry in our country. But, oh, it is so much more interesting to snoop on the internet and phone call database in the country.

It's all relative, but to me, snooping on our phone calls and e-mails is a far, far, far, far lower priority than producing enough shoes IN THE USA to keep America walking should we need to leave our homes.

The priorities are all askew in my view.

[mountain grammy]

32. That's exactly how I feel! Your post is clearer than I could say it.

The worst part to me about this data mining mess, aside from the fact that it's done at all, is the massive amounts of public money being paid to the private corporations who are doing it.

It's a distraction from the real problems facing America and the world, like climate change and the "free market" scam.

Priorities!!

[JDPriestly]

39. Thanks. Security is not just stopping bombers although

that is an important part of it. But we are spending too much to stop bombs and not enough to stop the desecration of our environment. What good is an intact body if you can't afford clean water?

[timdog44]

42. I like that.

"Keeping Americans safe is the most important job for our government. But the most important work that needs to be done to keep Americans safe is to provide affordable healthcare and medicine and GOOD jobs. That means manufacturing our own products to be sold in our country and educating our children without making them into life-long indentured servants and feeding all of us."

Because the things you mention are for the protection of our people. I saw a number that was supposed to be the number of people working for the spy thingy dingy. One and one half million. The number doctors in our country - about 800,000. Sad

[JDPriestly]

89. The figure on the number of people working on the spy thingy

dingy is surely too high. That many people?

That I can't believe.

If that were true they could actually subpoena a lot of specific records and review them. Horrors!

[timdog44]

91. The Wikipedia article

shows about 854,000 holding top security clearance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Intelligence_Community

So I think that would mean a whole lot more in peripheral positions.

Horrors indeed.

[bvar22]

46. Excellent post.

Please make this an OP.

[giftedgirl77]

4. I'm new a newbie

I think everyone is losing sight of the big picture.

While all the drama is spinning about this issue all of the items we should be focusing on are getting either passed under the table or not worked on at all.

Assistance for low income families are being cut in the name of sequester, the Keystone pipeline is still being pushed , our infrastructure is falling apart, student loan rates are about to double, a group of men are deciding women's health issues, and... there still isn't a damn thing going on to boost the lower & middle class.

Before we know it all of the issues we consider serious are all going to be signed, sealed, & delivered & everyones going to be stuck cleaning up the mess.

[marions ghost]

5. welcome

Girl, someday you will realize it's all related.

[annabanana]

7. Everything you've said is right as rain..

The mess is Aegean in scope.. And the only possible Hercules is people united.

AND: Welcome to DU

[giftedgirl77]

15. Thanks

I arrived shortly before this madness began & really hope people don't lose sight of the big picture.

[1StrongBlackMan]

31. Absolutely ...

While all the drama is spinning about this issue all of the items we should be focusing on are getting either passed under the table or not worked on at all.

And I suspect that is the whole point of this exercise in distraction.

[giftedgirl77]

34. I'd put $$ on it

& it's working. There are multiple bills in the works that screw us all over in one way or the other.

[1StrongBlackMan]

48. And why not ...

Corporate "america" has.

So long as they can keep Democrats (and Democrat-leaners) arguing about this, nothing will get done and they have hope for 2014/2016 ... because the Universe knowing, the gop candidates and their platforms, give them none.

[AsahinaKimi]

51. Welcome to DU!

DU e Yokoso! Irasshaimase!

[Politicub]

55. A tell for the new concern troll posters

is the lazy effort exerted to increase their post count.

You know something's up when a new poster has 200 posts on random threads that consist of nothing more than one or two messages with, "I agree," or "interesting," except on the NSA threads where they post paragraphs to express their poutrage at the president.

[giftedgirl77]

58. Not one of my posts has been a

poutrage for the Pres. The only items I have posted regarding this issue involve procedural issues & trying to explain how the legal/intel community operates.

My bad for not posting a reply to every single post that gets put on DU, if you bothered to read any of my posts you would know that I respond when I have something worthwhile to add, not just to start shit or nod my head in agreement.

My bad for not finding DU sooner.

[Raine1967]

60. Let me give you something:

You are just fine in my book! This place is unfortunately tough for newer people.

[giftedgirl77]

62. Aww Thanks

[Politicub]

61. Way to obfuscate the issue

Did I say my post was about you?

[giftedgirl77]

65. Sorry, if I misunderstood

I have very few posts, not sure how many & you did reply to me. One kind of has to infer at that point. I apologize if it was not intended.

[Politicub]

83. I can see why there was a mixup

I did reply to you, but it wasn't directed at you -- I agreed with the content of your post, and wasn't intended to be a gotcha. It's hard to get across tone on the forums.

I was agreeing with you that there's a lot going on with the social safety net and the economy, but the focus is so intense on the NSA issue that everything else is getting little to no attention.

Sorry about that!

[giftedgirl77]

84. No biggie, it has been kind of cut throat lately.

[Fumesucker]

90. Fascinating

[HappyMe]

49. I mentioned some of those things yesterday.

I was told that this surveillance stuff effects us all!!1


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3034927




When people finally wake up the "nightmare" (aka shiny new toy) a lot of things will have happened right under our noses.

[giftedgirl77]

85. It's amazing

how common sense is now being thrown out the window & the same ppl who were laughing & making fun of the nut jobs over the other scandals are taking this one hook, line, & sinker.

We just can't get right, scandalmania finally hit. I guess one of them was bound to stick eventually.

[jberryhill]

103. +1

Welcome to DU

[Cha]

106. Hey giftedgirl.. I like your style.

[BrownDoggie]

109. Are we to the point gov't is comparable to the environment-- "We've gone too far to turn back now"

Assistance for low income families are being cut in the name of sequester, the Keystone pipeline is still being pushed , our infrastructure is falling apart, student loan rates are about to double, a group of men are deciding women's health issues, and... there still isn't a damn thing going on to boost the lower & middle class.

^^^This.

The student loan issue is scary as hell; at this rate, I'll be lucky if I can someday buy a house.
http://www.yda.org/tell-congress-dont-double-my-rate/

And in regards to the boosting of the lower/middle class, ugh. I just don't understand how if '99%' of us are in a similar position, why are we allowing all of this nonsense to continue?? So sad.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/18/minimum-wage-worth-less-than-1968_n_3461568.html?ncid=txtlnkushpmg00000037&ir=Politics

[Civilization2]

6. Why do you Obama-is-without-fault folks think the NSA thing is about him?

Seriously, this has been going on since 9/11 (bush Jr), and long before,. some of us are not "blaming Obama" we are asking why we need all this data on law-abiding American citizens.

Do you not see a trend of increasing military/police/state control in the service of the corporate 1% that ACTUALLY run things??

No, really I am asking,. because is sounds like you don't ,and I find that extremely hard to believe.

It is not an attack on Obama, it is an exposure of a much larger system, grabbing at un-democratic power. Is this not important?

[snooper2]

8. I have no problems with what the NSA is doing

because unlike some folks I know they aren't (listenen' to all me phone calls and they got me email ma!)

[giftedgirl77]

16. Hear Hear

I've even gone so far as to try & use logic & reason but it's not working...

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. You forgot

"It's legal"

I have a deep problem with any government deploying authoritarian tools, even the United States. This can easily keyed up, and with the enactment of indefinite detainment of Americans and the gutting of posse comitatus.

If this was not so face palm worthy.

Perhaps the only way Americans will learn that these are not cute chicks is to live through them.

And yes, those who have lived through it recognize this for what it is.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/europe-must-stand-up-to-american-cyber-snooping-a-906250.html

It is not theory over there.

[premium]

22. Well said. nt.

[Whisp]

26. and I have a deep problem with fake journalism.

anyone with a keyboard is some kind Cronkite these days if they say what the gullible want to hear.

fix the media and you can fix most everything else.

[Vanje]

73. Der Spiegel

is not just some guy with a keyboard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Spiegel

[Monkie]

96. anyone with a keyboard and a magazine with a circulation of 1 million copies a week

there is gullible, and just plain ignorant, in germany politicians of all parties have complained about the editorial stance of Der Spiegel, that is normally a sign of a healthy democracy, when politicians of all stripes fear a magazine?

so how exactly do you suggest the media in germany is improved?


thanks for this, i needed a good laugh.
oh btw, can someone explain to me what a DUzy is?

[Whisp]

97. I was talking about the media in America. the Foxes and the CNNs and all the rest

the so called 'established' that have turned to protecting the 1%.

and now the newer crop of keyboard warriors that just can spit out anything they like and will net some believers no matter how outrageous their claims are.

[Monkie]

98. my deepest apologies

i hope you can forgive me.
its no excuse, but earlier there was someone seriously brushing aside the article from Der Spiegel as if it was just another blog on the net with no credibility, obviously without knowing what it was or even looking at it.
but thats no excuse for misunderstanding your post.
sorry again.

[Whisp]

99. are you sure?

I'm not used to apologies here. And I don't give them out all that often either.

No harm done and easily accepted, but it's good of you to do so.

[Monkie]

102. 100% sure, what is the shame in admitting one is wrong?

i have never understood that, the shame is in continuing knowing one is wrong or have made a mistake surely?
so to repeat that, i was wrong to mistake what you said and i should of taken more care before replying the way i did.

[The DUzy Awards]

110. Here ya go...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023031737

[wilsonbooks]

27. And let us also not forget that it has often happened in foriegn countries with the aid of our

military industrial complex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_disappearance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_americas

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Oh trust me, I know

As a young Red Cross (Mexican) worker one of my jobs was debriefing victims of our loving policies.

The Guatemala file were dusted off when Rioss Mont was convicted of war crimes...I wish El Salvador, Guatemala and yes, the US was next.

I got some personal experience with dictablandas...Mexico was one when I was growing up as well.

[wilsonbooks]

35. the links are for those who are too naive to see what happens

when people are spied upon and lists are drawn up. It has happened over and over, just not here. We are moving closer to it all the time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. I know

I have posted them as well...some people just need to live through them...it can't ever happen here, we are pure as snow, and...what is the word I am looking for? Exceptional.

If it wasn't so comical.

[JDPriestly]

41. They are applying logarithms to your e-mails and phone calls.

That is my opinion. It is a waste of money and an invasion of privacy and I object strongly.

It is just one baby step from applying logarithms to your e-mails for language that they don't approve of at this time to applying logarithms to your language for any political content that "they" don't like.
"They" are the self-appointed, wealthy politicians who manage to buy elections for themselves.

[snooper2]

44. They are! Damn, I just sent a bunch this morning...

I hope my work knows about this, this is horrible!


I didn't know the NSA could tap within our MPLS VPN. Fuck, who the hell gave them the VRF info!

[graham4anything]

77. What I don't get is, do you think Ronald Reagan was good or bad for the last 50 years?

[JDPriestly]

92. Ronald Reagan was a liar and a cheat.

[jeff47]

86. I don't think that word means what you think it means.

A logarithm of a number is the exponent to which another fixed value, the base, must be raised to produce that number. For example, the logarithm of 1000 to base 10 is 3 (usually written as log10 (1000) = 3)

An algorithm is a series of step-by-step instructions used by a computer system to process data.

[JDPriestly]

87. I meant algorithm.

[backscatter712]

78. That's what they said about the Stasi. n/t

[Civilization2]

94. Corporate "Contractors" secretly monitoring and logging domestic communication is great?

Ok, I guess we have rather different ideas of what a free and open society looks like.

For me the corporate/military seem to be grabbing at power at a logarithmic rate, and this is a huge problem when they also run/control the energy, food, water, prison, school, transport, etc., systems,. .

Seems to me like a 1% taking democracy from the people, and putting power in the hands of the few,. but by all means support that, if you do not like to live in a free and open democratic society.

[snooper2]

104. you need to be more specific

You do know when you pick up your cell phone and call someone vs. replying to me on DU those packets travel a different series of tubes right?

[Politicub]

57. Why do you think the ignorant are solely blaming Obama

It's an uninformed position and indicative of a troll.

But liars usually are devoid of a conscience, but at least they're pretty easy to figure out.

If I may paraphrase your post - Obama Obama Obama is to blame. Except when he's not, which is never.

Seems about right.

[treestar]

107. Because it is called "Obama's spy network" and Obama is

directly blamed for it by many posters. Eddie said it was because Obama didn't do enough to suit him. This is really disingenuous.

[frylock]

9. funny thing, the majority of surveillance supporters appear to be new posters..

rather than long-timers. and I keep hearing the term "GOP scandal" bandied about, when the GOP actually SUPPORTS the program.

[snooper2]

10. your observations I believe to be flawed

The far left and far right, (remember where the political circle completes Alex Jones is at the bottom) are the ones crying fowl.


They LOVE a government scandal, just like the IRS "scandal" that came out to be nothing- One dude trying to make his job easier by using some keywords like "teabagger" to search. I think I'll go find some of those threads just for fun.

(They can do it to teabaggers when a repuke in office they do it to me!)


That's the problem running off half-cocked without understanding all the facts

[frylock]

20. and you would be incorrect..

here's a partial list of those speaking OUT against the program:

Bernie Sanders
Mark Udall
Ron Wyden
Rand Paul

Supporters of the program:

Dick FUCKING Cheney
Al Franken
Diane Feinstein
John Boehner
Mitch McConnell

Again, this isn't a "GOP scandal," unlike the IRS "scandal" which was completely manufactured. the Sensible Centrists here couldn't jump aboard that bandwagon fast enough, and of course Obama was front and center with an apology, almost like he was half-cocked and without understanding all the facts.

[vi5]

36. Bingo

The IRS thing was ridiculous and there was every bit of evidence to support Obama going out there with facts and defending the IRS and pointing out why it was a bullshit scandal. But no, as per his usual he couldn't get out there fast enough to apologize to his unrequited loves and crushes on the right.

But on this, what is an actual scandal and violation of the constitution he digs in his heels and stands strong for the status quo and the surveillance state and military industrial complex.

Beyond pathetic as are those spinning to justify.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. I gotta admit

Franken surprised me. Given his righteous rants on Air America...

Since I have put his predictable requests for money and updates (give once can't get rid of them) in my spam folder.

[bvar22]

50. Minnesota is a BIG (Monsanto) CORN state.

Agriculture Support Bills is one of the MAIN channels of Public Money into the Private Pockets
of Monsanto, or into the pockets of the HUGE Corporate Frams (the new Plantations), complete with (wage) Slave Labor .
Anytime a Minnesota Congressman of Senator votes "strangely" or Out-of- Character if can usually be traced back to Factory Farm Welfare, or Monsanto.

The same is true for Iowa.

[think]

56. Al Franklen is 1 of the 8 Senators introducing a bill to End Secret Law

So he may support the program as a whole but he's all for reigning in the NSA and putting an end to the era of secret law:

Senators Introduce Bill To End Secret Law That Enabled NSA Surveillance

A bipartisan group of eight Senators have now introduced a bill to end the secret interpretation of the law which enabled the NSA, via the rubber-stamping FISA Court, to claim that the FISA Amendments Act enabled them to sweep up basically all phone call data on everyone.

The measure, coming amid daily revelations about the extent to which the National Security Agency is monitoring communications by Americans, would require the Attorney General to declassify significant Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) opinions. The senators say the move would allow Americans to know how broad of a legal authority the government is claiming to spy on Americans under the Patriot Act and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).

“Americans deserve to know how much information about their private communications the government believes it’s allowed to take under the law,” explains Oregon Senator Jeff Merkley, a Democrat who has been an outspoken advocate for congressional oversight of surveillance programs. “There is plenty of room to have this debate without compromising our surveillance sources or methods or tipping our hand to our enemies. We can’t have a serious debate about how much surveillance of Americans’s communications should be permitted without ending secret law.”

The bill will be put forth by Merkley, but co-sponsored by Senators Patrick Leahy, Dean Heller, Mark Begich, Al Franken, Jon Tester and Ron Wyden. Leahy, being the chair of the Judiciary Committee, is important, suggesting that this bill isn't automatically dead in the water. ...

~Snip~
Full article:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130611/12413623412/senators-introduce-bill-to-end-secret-law-that-enabled-nsa-surveillance.shtml

[frylock]

63. that is good news..

I can't tell you how disappointed that I've been with his reaction to these disclosures.

[Raine1967]

66. I missed this information.

has this been posted anywhere other than here on DU? If not, it should be an OP.

I especially liked the last paragraph:

And, in case you're wondering, yes, Congress can order the executive branch to declassify anything it wants, though obviously it needs to pass the law (and get past any potential veto). Declassifying how the FISC has interpreted the law should not be controversial. As we've been pointing out for years, under no circumstances would it make sense to claim that the official interpretation of what's legal and illegal should be classified. Yes, certain techniques or methods might need to remain classified, but the law must be public. Hopefully, others in Congress will finally recognize that basic fact.

I think sometimes this is a conversation that is lost among some arguments here at DU.

Thank you!

[VanillaRhapsody]

30. surveillance supporters?

uh no....I don't....and No I've been around awhile. I just happen to recognize when I am being "zoomed" by someone with an agenda or axe to grind.

[frylock]

33. what agenda?

[VanillaRhapsody]

45. Does the name Greenwald or Snowden ring a bell?

[Hydra]

52. Waiting for substantial facts to refute the evidence revealed

Rather than the "feeling" that Greewald and Snowden hate Ameria

[VanillaRhapsody]

54. Not what I said is it?

nothing about a "feeling" or hating America....

Unless Snowden provides some of this "massive amount of proof" to the American people (and how many days has it been....he has seen fit to provide it to Chinese and and the Russians though?) he is a criminal not a "whisteblower". How much time are we expected to wait for him to provide evidence he had access to anyone's phone and internet activity?

[frylock]

68. you know, I think I may have heard those names mentioned in this debate..

so I ask again; what is the agenda? to prevent Obama's third term? what power do they have to create and shape laws that effect us all? why obsess on those two when the enemy in congress supports this program?

[VanillaRhapsody]

74. I don't seem to be the one obsessed by them...others want to turn them into digital saints though...

I disagree with that...AND I think the problem is MUCH larger than the NSA focusing on that misses the overall big picture....been trying to point out you gotta go further than the NSA...and even if you can stop them.....the problem isn't resolved. But I also think that giving data that you were sworn to secrecy to foriegn nationals is a crime. He hasn't provided ANYTHING of substance to the American people so far except for words....I haven't seen anything snowden provided to the American people....in fact funny he seems to be more worried about the Chinese people than us.

[frylock]

75. what disclosures did he provide to foreign nationals that he hasn't provided to us?

[VanillaRhapsody]

79. I haven't seen the documents he showed to the Chinese press.....have you?

it gave specifics on Chinese people and Universities etc....this was his own claim so....perhaps this is another of his massive exaggerations???

[frylock]

80. ooooooooooohh... so this is nothing but speculation on your part..

got it.

[VanillaRhapsody]

82. It's nothing but speculation to believe he could do what he says he can....

according to other sources no he couldn't. As a matter of fact....I think the fact that HE worked for the NSA through Booz Allen Hamilton is the real problem with this data. That's what's screaming out to me....to me the bigger issue is how much we have privatized the govt....and how much more we are paying for that. He proves how dangerous THAT is!

[backscatter712]

67. They're getting more skilled at aging their accounts before trolling.

They know MIRT will nuke them if they troll from a brand new account.

[frylock]

70. i'm sure it comes from experience..

I imagine many on their third or fourth accounts by now.

[adric mutelovic]

69. did you conduct a survey?

If so, in your survey, what percentage of older members comprise the universe of pro-Snowden people?

[frylock]

81. Member since: Sat Jun 1, 2013, 05:52 PM

are you for or against the NSA's surveillance program? do you believe that snowden has an agenda?

[JimDandy]

12. How F@$#ing ironic! A Snoop Denier called snooper2.

You keep it up there, oh non-vigilant one!

Don't worry newbies... the rest of us got your back and will do what we can to recover our constitutional rights and our democracy.

[snooper2]

13. It was actually the name of my first cat, a black and white kitty

who "snooped" all the time

What do you do for a living? Ever run a wireshark?

[VanillaRhapsody]

47. So the NSA is not SUPPOSED to be snooping at all?

[JimDandy]

111. The NSA is not supposed to be

doing blanket 'snooping, scooping and cooping' the data of ALL American citizens and businesses. In addition to the ACLU, I imagine U.S. for-profit businesses are also getting ready to sue the government over this.

[VanillaRhapsody]

112. they are not....that's the point!

[indianjoe3295]

14. too late !

It's too late ! This "spying scandal" thing has been coming since someone figured out how to store and retrieve data electronically. There is no putting that genie back in the bottle. Our enemies use it to communicate and plan. If we ignore it in the name of "freedoms",...we ignore it at our own peril,...and will pay for it in a horrendous manner. We must use it and monitor it for our own safety. The question is how to control it so that it doesn't become abusive. As for the rest of what you said,... as long as Corporate money controls Elections,...none of that will get fixed. We are feelling the effects of that in Wisconsin with our current State Legislature. Citizens United and any similar Legislation needs to be defeated.

Thank you for the Welcome.

[JimDandy]

19. OMG a NSA apologist working hard to convince us we

can't do anything about the government spying on ALL of us! Oh I am soooo dejected now. I truuuuly believe and worship the NSA [genuflect, genuflect].

Really damn PATHETIC!

eta: I've seen you post the same thing on other threads. We can use a lot more of your positive aggressiveness (displayed at the end of your post) and a lot less of your negative passivity (at the post's beginning). This is a FIGHT for our RIGHTS so bring the best you've got. Safeguarding our 'freedoms' and keeping our country safe aren't mutually exclusive endeavors.

[Rex]

25. In all the years I've been here, I've never seen you so happy!

Finally get to talk shop in GD donchanow!

Better watch out, sooner or later people will be calling you Agent Mikes's assistant snooper.

[Buzz Clik]

53. Whenever DU heats up, the assholes show up in force.

"How DARE you call me out for my low post count!!!11"

Yeah, well, trolls and moles are pretty easy to spot when they are making a spectacle of themselves.

[MjolnirTime]

59. the Old Elm giveth and the Old Elm shall taketh away.

[Number23]

95. ROFL!! Although I thought that tree got chopped down several eons ago?

Considering how many "super duper We mean it! This is a SERIOUSLY emergency!!1" fund drives they were holding, I thought it was just a matter of time before someone took a chain saw to it.

[DirkGently]

64. The spying scandal is shaping up pretty well all over. Nice try.

So, no, the issue isn't being raised by a new crop of rightwing trolls. Take a look at the Greatest Page and tell us again how infiltrating newbies are driving the NSA stories.

So sad, all these poor attempts to discredit and accuse people who have the audacity to think something others would rather they not think.

It's extremely childish, and it's not working.

Try making an argument if you have one. This just seems like petulance.

[snooper2]

71. I've made a whole host of arguments

Didn't see you post in any of them-



You know how the NSA actually gets the "content" of a phone call when under warrant?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023035179

Minutes of Use (MOU): 2.321 trillion; June 2011: 2.251 trillion (3 percent increase)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023037317

So what do you think the NSA are doing with the multiple call segments/copies
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023009976

Remember when everyone made fun of Senator Ted Stevens "series of tubes"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023008395

[Politicub]

88. Have you seen this?

Good research and informative posts, BTW. There's so much data out there about each of us -- years and years of it -- that there's no telling who has their hands on it.

I thought the arguments in this article were thought provoking. People are peachy keen with handing over their privacy to Google, Facebook, Visa, Verizon, etc., so it stands to reason that it's pretty much open to the taking for those who are motivated enough be they governments, criminals or corporations.

http://www.infoworld.com/d/security/its-over-all-private-data-public-220901

To wit, in a world where every single entity is thoroughly hacked, it is naive to try and determine how ethical or legal it is for a particular custodial entity to hold a particular database by considering only individual circumstances or scenarios. It's wrong to ask if Google, Facebook, our government, your hospital, or your bank should be allowed to collect and store personal information about you. That's the old way of thinking.

Instead, we must ask ourselves if the database in question should be collected or created if we knew that information could be seen by the world -- because it will be or already has been.

No custodial entity can ensure the data it holds will remain private. We must instead assume that information can be stolen by unauthorized parties. If you ask security experts, every database worth stealing is already in the hands of someone who shouldn't have it. This is not wild conjecture; this is the general, well-understood consensus of the world's best computer security experts.

[BrownDoggie]

108. So, I'm a Verizon customer w/ an iPhone...

Do you Apple will release an app to protect our data?

[DirkGently]

93. But here you falsely imply newbie trolls are driving the issue.

That's childish and false.

Moreover, the issue has hardly blown over in the real world. It's an ongoing issue and it isn't going away because a lot of twitchy Obama partisans find it personally insulting to their politically motivated wishful thinking.

[snooper2]

105. Oh no they are just helping

We have our own collection of folks who are chomping at the bit to bash the Administration-

Go read some of the IRS threads...

"they doin' it to teabaggers they will do it to us!"

A non-story with shitty "reporting" just like this one. You'll notice all those threads are gone since, as we were told, it was one dude trying to make his job easier by searching for "teabagger".


It's the summer of 2013 though, we need something to keep people worked up LOL

[polynomial]

72. Actually this scandal is way over due

Right now my view is something like half full or maybe half empty, not always on the neutral side. Now you probably think this guy is nuts.

It was years ago that I picked up a book written by Alasdair Roberts, called Blacked Out, Government Secrecy in the Information age that really opened my eyes to what “might be” happening, this is the 2006 edition. Eleven years ago. Mr. Roberts is Canadian doing research about American data base systems.

This thing called “Metadata’ has me going to what it really is or means. In his index Mr. Roberts says for Metadata look up digitization of government documents, unstructured data, and metric martyrs.

The Metric Martyrs are a British advocacy group based in the United Kingdom who campaign for the freedom to choose what units of measurement are presented. Moreover I have a laugh and a very hard chuckle when someone says there is nothing to this metadata stuff.

In his book Mr. Roberts writes about the election of 2000. Yowee, just do a Google about Choicepoint one of the most prominent data business types during that time. Get this; ChoicePoint, was accused of cooperating with Florida Governor Jeb Bush, Secretary of State of Florida Katherine Harris, and Florida Elections Unit Chief Clay Roberts, in voter fraud, conspiracy involving the central voter file.

It was also accused of having a bias in favor of the Republican Party, for knowingly using inaccurate data, and for racial discrimination. Heck you don’t hear too much about that do you. Likely Bush money scrubbed that away.

Another good section says that metadata companies sell driver’s license information on the open market to retail companies. Or, how about running a match of your records to court records. Hope no mistakes are there. Yikes.

It gets better with metadata file where Mother Jones magazine matched data from three different U.S. agencies and found major contractors who worked for government while flouting its environmental and workplace safety rules.

Here is the kicker, how, after all, can citizens be expected to participate actively in politics, if critical information is being with-held from them?

How can citizen understand the actions of our representatives if we have incomplete knowledge of our representatives? All of these combined to for what is called ethics when failed leads to a system that fails in that the citizen cannot engage in active political affairs. Accountability does not exist.

Here the mainstream media as key players in this information process is the primary failure. You who, that is why we need to debate to talk about this.

[okaawhatever]

76. Not to mention, people aren't looking for other alternatives for some of the internet programs. NSA

doesn't just attempt to protect from terrorist attacks. There are also cyber terrorists who are attacking our nation's security, medical, and military computers regularly. Why isn't anyone looking for other reasons for the data mining of American computers? That's a real and grave threat to the security of Americans. Interestingly enough, when Obama finally had the proof to call China out on it the Snowden event happened. Those claiming Snowden is some kind of hero for outing what we do as a nation, doesn't blink an eye at what China has done to America citizens via their cyber snooping. He's standing up for a nation that has spied on Tibetan activists, the Dalai Lama, government protestors, whistle blowers etc. Snowden produces a document showing the UK spied on G20 countries, while conveniently ignoring the other spying at these conferences. Why no outrage when Azerbaijan was caught spying on Western countries during the internet summit?

As for Snowden's motivation. Shortly after the Mandiant report came out, Snowden went to work at the NSA in Hawaii. Hawaii being significant because that's where intercepts from China and China operations are based.
Excerpts from the report:
In this report, the research firm exposes massive corporate espionage schemes along with many indicators that link these processes to a Chinese government office called Unit 61398. Referring to these people as an Advanced Persistent Threat (APT), for seven years now, Mandiant has been monitoring the hacking activities against hundreds of organizations. Of course with the latest news from the New York Times, Wall Street Journal and Apple, all this month and all pointing at hacking attempts from China, the picture seems quite dark from the world’s most populous country.

In its report, Mandiant points at over 150 victims of this hacking group yet they say this is only one of over 20 different groups operating as a direct result of resources provided by Unit 61398. Calling this group APT1, researchers monitored the activities that they conducted from an office next to a government complex hosting Unit 61398 in Shanghai. All of this is done through a special link that China Telecom, the government owned national telecommunication company, provides in the name of “national defense”. The researchers observed APT1 break into at least 141 organizations spanning 20 industries, and they periodically revisit the same companies every few months in order to steal as many secrets as they can. The tools they use seem to be well known in the hacking underground and used by many Chinese based hacking teams. They have transferred many terabytes of stolen material, with 6.5TB coming from a single organization.

To be employed by APT1, one of the requirements is to speak English, and judging from all of its victims, the vast majority are in the English speaking world, which paints a clear picture of China’s intended targets. This is a vast campaign aimed at Europe and North America, with the US in particular, by highly trained individuals who have significant backing. The hacking group has over a thousand servers and dozens if not hundreds of individuals conducting the operations. Mandiant also tracked individual hackers by code names and the contributions they did to the hacking group, including phone numbers they used, email addresses they registered to send phishing emails, and malware code that they created (see the Ars Technica story about the coincidental help of Anonymous in possibly identifying individuals). Overall, the report is an eye opening account of the amount of online hacking that is going on from China.

Yeah, but they're looking at US based accounts you say? Well, maybe this is why:
Now however, as we can see from this report, the landscape has changed completely. These groups are fully integrated on the net, they are using Google services like the rest of us, they have US based IPs, hostnames, email accounts, and are even embracing the cloud.

It seemed to me the timing was suspect at best, by design at worst.

[davidn3600]

101. Who the hell said living in a free country doesn't have a cost?

People have DIED for this country to remain free. And then people like you are willing to sign away the Bill of Rights in exchange for an illusion of security.

You have no right to take my rights away just so you and your family can feel more safe.