Would it be better if everyone on DU agreed on NSA?

[kentuck]

That the data collection was necessary and no one should be concerned about privacy or the Constitution? We should support the President 100%? What would we be discussing instead?

[el_bryanto]

1. Or alternatively we could all just agree that Pres. Obama is a traitor

The spying on Americans is Terrible and must stop, and anybody who supports this program is an administration lackey.

Bryant

[kentuck]

6. Yes. That is another option.

But I don't think either position by itself would help our Party or our country.

[Puzzledtraveller]

8. Snowden 2016!

Is he even old enough?

[graham4anything]

2. Winning back the house in 2014 and hold the senate and get 4 more SCOTUS to overturn the 2nd.

reinterpreting the 2nd to show militia=national guard and stop the insanity of Zimmy's in the street

and electing Hillary Clinton in 2016 to keep Barack Obama's agenda for another 8 years after 2017 and to change
the court to 6 to 3 or 7 to 2 liberal with more great SCOTUS like 2 of the best ever, Sonia Sotomayer and Elana Kagan.

and making sure that the BUSH/PAULfamilyinc never step foot near power again.

along with 1000 items like hoping zimmy is found guilty and sentenced to the max.

[HooptieWagon]

43. The Bush admin...Cheney, Ari, etc. support the surveillence state.

Grayson, Saunders, Chomsky, Gore ,etc have condemned it.
So the question is: Should Democrats support other Dems in condemning surveillence, or should they support the GOP toture regime?

[kentuck]

44. Your money or your life?

Hmmmm...let me think.

[graham4anything]

50. we should get rid of all paper money and coins. There would never be another robbery of cash then.

thanks for reminding me.

Money and guns are passe', relics of another time, another place a long time ago in a galaxy so far far away

If you get the guns out of the street, and get rid of paper money, ALL street crime would be eradicated as there would be nothing to steal.

[Junkdrawer]

3. I'm conflicted....

Not sure if I should say Mooo or Baaa ?

[redqueen]

4. Poor framing. How about just not calling othet DUers "shitbags", "authoritarians",

"swooners", "the BOrG", etc. etc. ad nauseam?

[Recursion]

10. ^^ That

Also, some of the woo that's being thrown around, we could really do without ("The NSA downloads all Internet traffic constantly!!! ZOMG! Snowden is going to be assassinated!&quot

[Buzz Clik]

11. Well, I don't know. Some of the insults have been quite creative.

For instance, I learned that I lick Stalin's ass. What remarkable imagery!

[Just Saying]

15. Exactly.

I don't know how calling each other names helps anything. We don't have to agree but surely we can debate without this type of thing going on.

[Marrah_G]

17. You know, it goes the other way too.

Lots of name calling on both sides.

Personally if I find someone to be so annoying that I want to call them names, I just put them on ignore.

[HappyMe]

18. I agree.

This has really gotten out of control.

In the meantime, I believe that there is an important vote in Congress in re to reproductive rights.

[sibelian]

24. Seems reasonable.

acerbic I may be but I try to avoid flat-out namecalling (not always successfully...)

[treestar]

26. Yes, I've seen all that

Merely for questioning and pointing out the absurd exaggerations.

[backscatter712]

30. Let me get this straight...

A large group of DUers (and their socks) engages in a McCarthyist campaign of character assassination and poo-flinging against a person who sacrificed everything to blow the whistle on Stasi-style police-state surveillance, and the people who don't like character assassination and similar sorts of behavior are told to chill out and be civil?



That's rich!

Character assassins deserve to get their heads bitten off here. Why should I be civil to those who behave so reprehensibly?

[kentuck]

33. If you can't take the heat...?

Then get out of the kitchen?

[redqueen]

35. I'm shocked. Shocked.

Do I need a sarcasm tag?

Yeah. Your framing makes it clear.

[kentuck]

37. Sometimes I will play the devil's advocate?

And sometimes I am just the devil.

[backscatter712]

41. Oh I can take plenty of heat.

I'll be dishing it out too!

[CakeGrrl]

42. This is why DU has all the gravitas of a schoolyard lately.

But as has been pointed out elsewhere, it's a bubble.

The whole 'Snowden is a savior, and you'll be flamed if you disagree' mindset is eroding the overall appeal of this place as one for a reasonably open-minded exchange of ideas.

There's a whole world going on out there that is appropriately NOT obsessed with the NSA issue. Here, you'd think it's just about the ONLY thing to worry about. That says a lot.

[CakeGrrl]

32. +1000

The namecallers don't brook those who aren't in lockstep with their thinking.

Ironic.

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. Ayup

[randome]

5. Outside the DU bubble, I really don't think anyone cares.

Metadata. It's encrypted. Includes no identifying information. You don't own the phone number nor the metadata. It belongs to the telecoms.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[kentuck]

9. Belongs to the telecoms?

Or the government?

[Recursion]

12. The telecoms

When I dial a number, I'm asking my carrier to route a call. Their log of that fact is their information, which is why it's not Constitutionally protected (though it is partially protected by statute).

[randome]

13. Belongs to the telecoms. They can do with it what they want.

The alternative is to have the NSA check every single telecom in America when they have a warrant. It would probably take weeks to get through them all.

Much more effective -and safe seeing as how it's encrypted- to have the data in one place.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Buzz Clik]

7. What's the point of this, kentuck?

[kentuck]

16. That marching in lockstep is not healthy.

No matter your position. Where would our country go without this debate? In my opinion, it would be a fatal mistake. I have no option but to take the position I take.

[Buzz Clik]

19. Is that a problem here? Are we not experiencing a rigorous debate on this subject?

All subjects?

[kentuck]

22. I hope so.

I think it is good to have.

[redqueen]

36. Oh, I think it's pretty obvious. nt

[Marrah_G]

14. We should be discussing how cute the first dog is

and Michelle's latest awesome dress.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. for the record

Bo is cute

[HardTimes99]

20. Hell no! But I assume you were asking the questions rhetorically - n/t

[kentuck]

21. Eternal vigilance.

...is a necessity. Somebody has to always question those in power.

[HardTimes99]

23. +1. The ancient Roman poet Juvenal said it best: "Quis custodiet

ipsos custodes?" ("Who will guard the guardians?&quot

[Enrique]

25. yes, because then we would win the 2014 elections

[gcomeau]

27. It would be better...

...if everyone at least bothered dealing with the facts before forming their opinions instead of large groups of people running around with their hair on fire because they're just naturally so inclined and see an opportunity to let loose.

[H2O Man]

28. No.

(Recommended)

Social lobotomies have been proven to reduce anxiety and tension in some instances, but as we can note within the republican population, it isn't 100% successful.

[bhikkhu]

29. In order of importance:

Wealth and income inequality is the big issue in the US

Health care costs are the second biggest issue

Third may be arguable, but gun violence is what I would say. We have the possibility of passing meaningful legislation on background checks at least.

I have to say, for the NSA thing was always old news, easily explained and easily justified for me. That sort of thing has been going on under every president since FDR, at least. I don't mind if things change for the better, but its not even an interesting topic.

[CanonRay]

31. Everyone on DU will never agree on anything

including the sun rises in the east.

[LanternWaste]

34. I would imagine that many people posses many opinions

I would imagine that many people posses many opinions. Some of the opinions, regardless of whether we agree with them or not, are presented logically, rationally, and as objectively as possible.

Other opinions however, regardless of whether we agree with them or not, seem little more than an excuse for the petulant-minded to call others "authoritarians", "terrorist-lovers", and a host of other ineffectual labels which do no good other than to self-validate the person using the pejoratives.


"What would we be discussing instead?" Anything you want I would think, unless you feel obligated to deny yourself a valid topic of discussion else someone may disagree with you...

[WovenGems]

45. Perspective

If you are being investigated then your computer and cell phone records can be seized. Right? But given how many companies are involved in communications and the variety of retention policies they have a central collection point is needed. The point is even though the data is being captured a warrant is still needed to view it or use it. In the NSA history no instances of having to show in court to explain where evidence came from. Why not?

[kentuck]

46. When you give a cop a taser...

He has an almost uncontrollable urge to use it. That is the natural inclination of authoritarians. Give them a 3-D printer and they want to print a gun. Give the government the technology and the opportunity to spy and to eavesdrop and they will do it. That is their first inclination - to suspect people of wrongdoing and to punish, rather than to reward.

[WovenGems]

47. Logic?

Using that line of thought we should have a really cool yard sale. Wanna buy an aircraft carrier? After all, if the bad guys are use whatever they then we need to take away all military toys.

[rrneck]

48. Nah. At least it beats talking a bout Olive Garden and pistol grips on rifles.

[Raine1967]

49. Sometimes DU reminds me of this book:

Lord of the Flies.

This entire NSA debacle is like an artistic interpretation of the book right here on DU.