Misogyny, sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. and unconscious internalization.

[redqueen]

Last edited Fri Jun 21, 2013, 02:14 PM - Edit history (2)

Most women have internalized misogynist views. Most men do, too. That doesn't mean that they are actively misogynist. It just means they have internalized the messages we receive from all directions over the course of our entire lives.

It is not an accusation. It is not an insult. It is simply an observation. It is a fact.


It is exactly the same with racism, homophobia, transphobia, and every other bias against marginalized groups. We still receive many racist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. messages from all directions and we almost all internalize these to some extent, and if we aren't careful to take time to reflect on our thoughts we most certainly will not rid ourselves of these unconscious prejudices and biases.


Edited to be more inclusive, and also to explain why I started with misogyny. I'm a hard core feminist. Not as hard core as some, more hard core than most. But I still have to watch myself, because I still have those remnants of my upbringing lurking in my subconscious. These things will take generations to change. Thinking that any group is past any of this is foolish.

[Whisp]

1. First Rec! n/t

[redqueen]

19. Thanks!

[geek tragedy]

2. Yep. Even militant feminists and anti-racists will have those thoughts

pop into their heads. Doesn't mean they believe them, just how the human brain works--get exposed to stuff enough, it gets lodged in the neurons.

[redqueen]

23. Yep...

I'm mixed race and I'd love to say that I've never had a thought or reaction that was in any way influenced by racism, but that would be a self serving, ego massaging lie.

[sibelian]

3. No. I'm afraid that's not true.

It's certainly convenient to pretend it is, but you'll notice that the benefit from sustaining that position is that you don't need to be able to demonstrate it because it's "unconscious".

It's an avoidance strategy. The structure it proposes only appears (originally somewhat mysteriously) in cases where there are alternative explanations for the percieved "sexism" and the position is adopted only because the alternative explanations need to be managed out of the way to avoid painful criticisms which are "unfair". Typically the perception of unfairness is actually totally illogical and amounts to little more than "why should X minority have to feel even more bad", which is baby-thinking.

Sexism, racism, homophobia, these are all conscious processes, the unconscious does not habitally discriminate along the grounds of gender, race or sexual orientation, it isn't sufficently complex. Also, it isn't anywhere near as programmable as the conscious mind. It doesn't pick up signals from external sources and internalise them. It generates cognitive structures and manipulates them. It's only people who don't fully undertsand the nature of the unconscious that project their fears onto it and pretend it is a secret laboratory of prejudice. It's the conscious mind that does the thinking, not the unconscious.

Your postulate enables you to imagine you understand what someone else thinks better than they do, that's all. It's driven by a nebulous, unfocussed desire to get the better of people.

Trust me. I know what I'm talking about. I used to do exactly the same thing myself.

[galileoreloaded]

5. Correct.

The animus or subconscious merely exists to provide the hormonal "firmware" to the conscious "operating system". firmware has no opinion, only an endocrinology based output to affect, at its core, the fight/flight/freeze response and all the triggers that lead to sexual reproduction.

monkeys with thumbs, and an overdeveloped pre-frontal cortex that has generationally selected to solve complex militaristic strategies in order to ensure reasonably refined (pure) sequestered genetic content (tribalism).

and we thought we as humans were special...

[siligut]

53. The subconscious and unconscious are two different levels

But I believe you are actually referring to the limbic system.

The limbic system is a set of evolutionarily primitive brain structures located on top of the brainstem and buried under the cortex. Limbic system structures are involved in many of our emotions and motivations, particularly those that are related to survival. Such emotions include fear, anger, and emotions related to sexual behavior. The limbic system is also involved in feelings of pleasure that are related to our survival, such as those experienced from eating and sex.
http://biology.about.com/od/anatomy/a/aa042205a.htm

[galileoreloaded]

59. here and in this conversation I lump them together as one outputs to the other

in order to show the flaw in the OP's calculations, but they are very closely tied. whereas the consciousness that is being referred to here is, i assume being based on higher functioning and reasoning. most dont understand how the firnware and OS work in tandem to provide a computing platform, so i refer to the lowest denominator.

the vast majority of folks don't even understand what they do and feel much less how they do it, so i simplified.

you are, of course correct, and it really looks more like:

limbic=firmware

subconscious/animus=operating system

conscious/persona=software package like excel, word, etc.

[siligut]

61. Nice analogy

I recognize that it is loose, but it works on a simplified level and many people can relate to it.

Using your model, I would relate the unconscious to something like Cloud computing.

[galileoreloaded]

62. another good one. thanks. nt

[redqueen]

6. This isn't "my" postulate. nt

[cali]

14. this is a really good post. thanks.

[ismnotwasm]

15. Oh for gods sake

There are biases and prejudices embedded in how we interact every day. It may not be fully "subconscious" but it's certainly there. And when, say, a bias is institutionalized as the norm, no thinking is done about it is there?

[stevenleser]

40. I don't think I agree

I think that the conscious and subconscious affect each other. I think if you are taught to be prejudiced/biased against people of certain groups, that eventually becomes part of your subconscious reactions to them.

There is clearly more to it than what you write. I've noted people who have realized they were prejudiced against certain groups who have had to work hard to overcome their prejudices. If it was just a matter of the conscious mind, it would be easy to simply stop believing a certain way, particularly something as irrational as prejudice.

Also, in your model, where does sexual orientation live? If it's conscious, it can be changed, right? So it clearly cannot be that. But if it is subconscious which in your model contains no ability to have choices that indicate any kind of preference between two people, why isn't everyone bisexual?

[galileoreloaded]

49. Ingrained bias is a

Perfectly reasonable and well defined species survival strategy. What we have the capacity to do as humans( some of us) is to engage our higher functioning above the base morality we all posess (aversion to lying, aviodance to homocidal behavior) to combat these biases. From that perspective, racial bias can be seen as subconscious but only to the extent that it fulfills a biological imperative. Our society is in a lull from an evolutionary perspective where this bias isn't needed but we just dont physically evolve that quickly.

On purpose.

We have a civilization shaking event, and our ingrained strategies are still there, ready to repopulate in the way we did originally, that bias becomes healthy again.

Pretty simple.

[LittleBlue]

46. Jeez

That's probably one of the most articulate posts I've ever seen on this forum.

It's interesting to read about the subconscious and the way it works. Rec.

[AngryAmish]

47. You are making a lot of assertions about the nature of the human mind.

Citations please?

[opiate69]

52. And the OP isn't?

[AngryAmish]

60. Both of them are.

[siligut]

54. You used to do the same thing yourself?

Do you mean you used to blame your unconscious mind for things you felt but didn't like. While the unconscious mind is no secret laboratory, it does contain what we learned growing up. It doesn't "think", or differentiate good from bad, but it does influence feelings.

The unconscious mind (or the unconscious) consists of the processes in the mind that occur automatically and are not available to introspection, and include thought processes, memory, affect, and motivation.[1] Even though these processes exist well under the surface of conscious awareness they are theorized to exert an impact on behavior. The term was coined by the 18th-century German romantic philosopher Friedrich Schelling and later introduced into English by the poet and essayist Samuel Taylor Coleridge. The concept was developed and popularized by the Austrian neurologist and psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud. Empirical evidence suggests that unconscious phenomena include repressed feelings, automatic skills, subliminal perceptions, thoughts, habits, and automatic reactions,[1] and possibly also complexes, hidden phobias and desires. In psychoanalytic theory, unconscious processes are understood to be expressed in dreams in a symbolical form, as well as in slips of the tongue and jokes. Thus the unconscious mind can be seen as the source of dreams and automatic thoughts (those that appear without any apparent cause), the repository of forgotten memories (that may still be accessible to consciousness at some later time), and the locus of implicit knowledge (the things that we have learned so well that we do them without thinking).
It has been argued that consciousness is influenced by other parts of the mind. These include unconsciousness as a personal habit, being unaware, and intuition. Terms related to semi-consciousness include: awakening, implicit memory, subliminal messages, trances, hypnagogia, and hypnosis. While sleep, sleep walking, dreaming, delirium, and comas may signal the presence of unconscious processes, these processes are not the unconscious mind itself, but rather symptoms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscious_mind

Yes this is from Wiki, but it is actually what is generally accepted by people who study the mind.

[polly7]

4. Happy to say I'm not one of them.

and I really doubt that 'most' women have those views. Some, absolutely.

[redqueen]

8. Based on the fact that it is 2013, and we are only now seeing a noticeable pushback

against victim-blaming in the press and society in general (as candy crowley learned recently, things are actually starting to change now, finally) - I would say the vast majority still hold these unconscious views.

[JustAnotherGen]

29. +1

[Hydra]

7. It's hard to ignore the noise all of the time

That, and we're instinctively tribal- we've formed into bigger groups than we can really handle, and there's still that separation point once you get out of the group

That said, there's nothing really universal. I relate better to women than men, so you could say my sexism is bent toward my own gender. We love what we love, and we hate what we hate, and we try to justify all of it in our minds and to other people.

We'll never get to the point where everyone likes everyone, and maybe that's fine. It's a bigger issue the further you go out from it.

[redqueen]

9. It's not about liking people, though.

It's about treating people fairly.

When a victim of rape doesn't report it because they perceive these prejudices and biases, that's a real problem.

When sentences are based not on the crime committed but on the color of a convicted person's skin, that is a real problem.

These are both severe examples. There are millions of other examples of unfair treatment that is rooted in this kind of unconscious bias, prejudice, etc. Despite being less severe or even characterized as "little stuff", it adds up, and none of it makes the world a better place.

[Hydra]

20. Ya, we as a species have big problems with the concept of "fair" too

I'm just remarking that while much of it is organized and reinforced(Misogyny, Racism, and Homophobia for instance), even people who rise above those substitute them for hate of other people based on social stances, criminal status, etc. Consider these groups "acceptable targets."

I'm more or less of the Malcolm X school of thought- we're all human. Even so, there are people I don't want to associate with and don't want running things in our society. I've noticed that's pretty universal, but as long as it's an accepted hate, it's fine.

We should certainly try, but I'm seeing a hard point on universal acceptance that probably is there for a reason.

[HappyMe]

18. You make a pretty good point.

Every man and woman on earth has some sort of prejudice (or something similiar) in them to varying degrees. Some are successful in modifying their attitudes, some are not. I'm not saying that this is right, but a huge universal change in everybody isn't realistic. It's sad. Look at the huge fight for the lgbt community. They still can't get married everywhere.

[Hydra]

50. Hell, one of my friends was accused of "Lewd and immoral behavior"

By her boss for being seen kissing her girlfriend. We're SO far from getting past this is isn't funny.

That said, I see witch hunts here on DU all the time for "acceptable targets" and I see it in the real world too. It's hard to watch when people say we need to be more accepting of your fellow human and you see them go off the rails in other places.

Universal acceptance- good in theory, runs into bumps on large scale.

[redqueen]

58. We're all only human.

Some of us have hot button issues that we will go "off the rails" over. If it isn't fair then call it out. That's how positive change happens.

I have a small issue with the idea of acceptable targets. For instance, I don't agree with many people that overweight people are an acceptable target. I do agree that pedophiles, pederasts, and ephebophiles are acceptable targets. Consciously, actively racist/misogynist/homophobic views are acceptable targets. Rapists are acceptable targets. People who abuse their partners or children are acceptable targets. People who abuse animals are acceptable targets. Etc.

[Hydra]

63. That's the problem with "acceptable targets"

Meshing with non-bias. They don't mix. Everyone has a list of acceptable targets, and objectively it's not supportable in that framework.

Depending on who you ask, acceptable targets can be anything from atheists to meat eaters to people who wear thongs to people who play video games...it's endless, and it's all justified in their minds.

This is where it gets sticky- at some point there becomes a justification for hating various groups. At that point, we've LEGITIMIZED what we were supposed to be getting away from, and we're actually worse off than we started...so I say we go as far as we can, but accept that it's not going to work as a whole concept.

[redqueen]

64. And that is why we form communities, and value systems.

So that we can form a rough consensus on things like defining pedophiles and rapists as acceptable targets, and people who play video games or don't believe in god as non-acceptable targets.

[Hydra]

65. Right, and there is the definition of the bubble

And everything outside of it ranges from suspect to bad. Which is fine, but we're never going to have an earth sized bubble. Or when we start going outside of that, a solar system sized bubble. The only way to have either is to brainwash people.

Hell, we're finding out a USA sized bubble is too big.

[redqueen]

66. All true, yet none of that negates the importance of striving to improve society

by raising awareness of these issues.

[Hydra]

67. Right, I'm just pointing out

That there's a limit to how far we can go with this. Whether it's a hardwired survival skill or a simple way we sort people in our minds...we're never going to get to the point where everyone is included.

That's both sad and comforting at the same time. It's not that we could all get along and choose not to, it's that we're doing our best but it's simply not possible.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. homophobia too. nt

[redqueen]

11. Yes! Thank you!

And transphobia too.

[Recursion]

12. Well said (nt)

[cali]

13. sure. we all have biases and recognition of those biases is important but

that doesn't for one second excuse the accusations that have been flying here- and which I note you've recced and spoken of approvingly- that almost all criticism of President Obama is rooted in racism.

[redqueen]

16. Who said "almost all criticism of President Obama is rooted in racism"? nt

[cali]

22. oh please. those threads you've been reccing.

"It's racism, bigotry, hate, agendas, envy and jealousy, but a lot of it is based on race, even the envy.


Please, the denials are so lame, it's embarrassing. And you recced that thread and every other one with the same all too casual accusations.

[redqueen]

24. No, I didn't. I didn't rec KW's "you might be a racist" thread for reasons which should be clear.

There's a whole lot of kneejerking going on, and way too little thoughtfulness.

[cali]

28. no, you recced the one I pulled the quote from. not very thoughtful.

quite kneejerk.

I just looked and you recced "It's hate. Period"

[redqueen]

36. You are assuming that refers to ANY and ALL criticism. That is your mistake. nt

[cali]

39. lol. it's about as sweeping as it gets.

want me to post that quote again?

Here:

It's racism, bigotry, hate, agendas, envy and jealousy, but a lot of it is based on race, even the envy.

you can try and pretend that it's not a clear accusation that criticism of the President is rooted in racism, but it is.

I think your use of ALL and ANY, is quite amusing.

[redqueen]

45. "It" is not what you think it is.

And I'm done with this derail.

[cali]

17. If you are determined to see everything through a given filter

than that's what you'll see.

and I have no respect for the people here who are flinging the accusation of "racist" around in order to deflect and silence criticism of the the President's policies.

[allin99]

21. is this related to people here opposing the admin's policies/practices?

[redqueen]

25. No. nt

[allin99]

27. k. you might want to make that clear since there have been so many...

threads calling people racist for not supporting the admin's practices so it's easy to see them as related.

[redqueen]

38. I've only seen one thread implying that anyone "is racist". nt

[allin99]

51. um, look harder...

"it's hate"
"if it's not racism what is it"
and another one it's got the word racist in the title. They're very long threads, read through them.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

57. There is no thread calling people racist! That's wrong.

[cali]

30. considering the context on du and your history of standing with those

throwing around the label "racist" at those who criticize policies of the President's, I find that a little difficult to believe.

[JustAnotherGen]

32. +1

Folks aren't familiar with you redqueen. You are brutally honest.

Unfortunately - too many of your posts get hidden because well -you are honest.

[ismnotwasm]

37. Total derail

With a soupçon ( ok a little more) of out of nowhere verbiage

[HappyMe]

26. It didn't start out that way.

[dawg]

31. These things are all real. But now is a terrible time to try and discuss them seriously.

Because these unconscious views are *not* the reason for the recent criticism of the President on this board. The threads that have implied that DU'ers critical of the President are racists are a new low for Democratic Underground. And I am guessing that President Obama would be the last person in the world who would want to be defended by knee-jerk accusations of racism.

[Rex]

34. So it is now DU? I know a lot of it is racism

but that is a reference to outside forces (like some of my co-workers and relatives). I didn't know they meant people on DU. That is sick.

[redqueen]

42. I had wanted to avoid specific incidents but since this keeps coming up I'll just say this.

I think we should be able to discuss and disagree about these things thoughtfully.

I think DU is very different from the general public in many ways, but in many others we are not so different.

There were knock-down, drag-out brawls here in the recent past over the attempt to even discuss rape culture. Many people interpreted the term itself to be an insult against men.

I see these attempts to discuss the possibility that racISM might play a part in some of the more over the top attacks on Obama -- as well as those who still like and respect him despite his failures -- (NOT any and all criticism) as being reacted to in that same way. I have seen one OP implying that some people may be racist. Most of what I'be seen is more akin to discussing rape culture and its part in influencing people to blame victims.

[dawg]

48. I'm profoundly disappointed in President Obama.

At one point, I thought he might be something special, but now I feel very much let down. So that attitude may color and distort my views somewhat. But I took lots of those threads to to mean that all of our criticisms of the President were probably rooted in racism. There were thread titles like:"If it isn't racism, then what is it?" and "It's hate. Period."

The implications, to me, were that there were no non-racial reasons to be so upset with the policy directions this administration has taken.

I found those threads to be highly insulting.

You are a DU'er that I respect, and I understand you are coming at this from a different angle than me. But to say that you have seen only one OP implying that some people may be racist is a stretch. If you don't see it, then it is probably because it is ugly and you don't want to see it. On the other hand, maybe there are some racially motivated criticisms of the President on this site that I don't see because *I* don't want to.

But it is an ugly thing to accuse someone of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. because of policy differences. Most of us voted for President Obama twice. And it may not be racism.

It might just be disappointment.

It always hurts more when it comes from someone you trusted.

[rrneck]

33. I think generally speaking

that if one thing is used to explain a wide range of phenomena, it's a conspiracy theory. If many things are used to explain a single phenomenon, it's a valid theory.

[snooper2]

35. Is this a nice way to say we are all contributing to "rape culture"?

[The Link]

41. Do you have internalized racist views?

Internalized homophobic views?

[redqueen]

43. Your post highlights a huge part of the problem.

Not reading, let alone trying to understand, what other people are trying to say.

[The Link]

44. So, do you have internalized racist and/or homphobic views?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

55. Thank you so much for this. I wish that people, rather than being so defensive, would try and

understand the plight of these groups. Just because one truly believes that one is not sexist/homophobic/racist, etc. doesn't mean that these internalized messages don't manifest into behaviors or statements or sentiment against said group(s).

[redqueen]

56. It is my somewhat sad pleasure...

I think we're getting there... slowly.