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cliffordu

(30,994 posts)
Sat Jun 22, 2013, 12:38 AM Jun 2013

Real Questions: Is this the work of an artist or a rape culture perp?

I have my own pejorative, strict, opinions.

I'll not express these opinions, but want to see yours.

I could learn something.

http://www.messynessychic.com/2013/06/06/the-reclusive-peeping-tom-photographer-and-his-cardboard-camera/

PLEASE read the entire thing, and LOOK at all the photographs.

Where does art and simple exploitation and rape culture truly diverge? Can it?

And about Miroslav Tichý?

What about his OTHER obsession? Building his own cameras from tape and string?

Does this make a difference? Did I dishonor them? Did I steel

OK:

There was a film called "Pretty Baby" starring one of the Carradines, Brooke Shields, who, at 12 played a 12 year old prostitute, and Susan Sarandon.

Mainstream exploitation of Sarandon's fully naked body and the threat of Brooke Shields nude at 12 sold the film.

The film was about Storyville, Louisiana, the section of New Orleans where prostitutes worked their trade, and where a photographer named E.J Bellocq did his most famous work.

The actor playing Bellocq (Carradine, IIRC)had nothing to do with the real Bellocq, who was a dwarf and was hated by everyone, pretty much. Hollywood turned him into a 6 foot tall west coat artiste'



Go read 'Coming through Slaughter' by Michael Ondaatje for what could be the closest story of Bellocq, who had, perhaps the same obsession Miroslav Tichý did.

I have argued with myself about the difference between art and exploitation for a long time.

Is Miroslav Tichý's, or Bellocq's art any more exploitative than the goddamned photo I cannot post here as a result of being conned into accepting Google Plus - so posting individual photos instead of Facebook-like photo spam and personal information cannot be done....

Two end stage drunks: one is a Ma, a 300 lb woman smoking a joint and sitting on a box of wine. The other is a 70 year old Native American sitting on the sidewalk next to Ma with an Instamatic up to his face like he's taking a photo. Looking right at me.

Send me your PM and I'll send you a copy.

I gave Ma and Superchief that box of wine to watch the front door of the Storefront Actor's Theater, where I worked.

But, really, it was to take the photo, which i (guiltily) love.


They let me take the photo for laughs. Ma is sitting on the box, Super chief holding the camera.

They have been dead for many years, I had many fine nights drinking and goofing with them both.

(Unlike Carradine or the director of 'Pretty Baby')

I get the feeling that Miroslav Tichý would have been honored to find our little enclave.

As usual, YMMV






13 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Real Questions: Is this the work of an artist or a rape culture perp? (Original Post) cliffordu Jun 2013 OP
An intesting article. ZombieHorde Jun 2013 #1
I will recommend any post that advocates reading 'Coming through Slaughter' Tom Ripley Jun 2013 #2
I find this whole thing disturbing Number23 Jun 2013 #3
These are arresting photographs. Blue_In_AK Jun 2013 #4
This photographer was not a "rapist"... GReedDiamond Jun 2013 #5
I think for Tichy, context is everything. politicat Jun 2013 #6
Brilliant answer, thanks. cliffordu Jun 2013 #7
An arguably artistic product of a rape culture. At least from the limited and very slanted Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #8
He was an artist. rrneck Jun 2013 #9
Thanks for Posting. Sherman A1 Jun 2013 #10
it's both. it's art and exploitation cali Jun 2013 #11
Creepy as fuck... actslikeacarrot Jun 2013 #12
Voyeurism, exploitation and art justiceischeap Jun 2013 #13

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
1. An intesting article.
Sat Jun 22, 2013, 12:47 AM
Jun 2013

Art comes from the observer, and not the object or situation being observed. Being an artist is a motivation. It's a type of playing.

He could be both an artist and a rape-culture perp. Any value his photos have will come from the observers.

 

Tom Ripley

(4,945 posts)
2. I will recommend any post that advocates reading 'Coming through Slaughter'
Sat Jun 22, 2013, 12:55 AM
Jun 2013

a fine fine book

Also, thanks for the article

Number23

(24,544 posts)
3. I find this whole thing disturbing
Sat Jun 22, 2013, 01:33 AM
Jun 2013

The pics of the man taking pictures of unsuspecting women is disturbing. But a movie featuring a 12-year old girl playing a 12-year old prostitute is just insane. I'd only vaguely heard of Pretty Baby before but it won't be on my must see list of pics.

Having said that, I can't explain it but there is something truly arresting about this pic -

Maybe it's the bare feet? Or the double exposure? I don't know. But it's amazing.

Blue_In_AK

(46,436 posts)
4. These are arresting photographs.
Sat Jun 22, 2013, 01:46 AM
Jun 2013

I personally don't see them as particularly pervy. A lot of photographers, myself included, enjoy taking "stealth" shots where the subject doesn't know he or she is being photographed.

GReedDiamond

(5,316 posts)
5. This photographer was not a "rapist"...
Sat Jun 22, 2013, 01:59 AM
Jun 2013

...to even include the word in the OP title diminishes what rape really is, IMO.

His work appears to be that of an artist with a mission.

If that mission included photographing women in public, without their knowledge, show me where these women were harmed or damaged.

He ground his own (imperfect) lenses out of plastic which obviously contributed to his work's distinctive "look."

And it made his subjects essentially anonymous.

I did not see one picture at the link that one could categorize as pornographic, or evidence of rape.

Also, his work has nothing to do with the film "Pretty Baby," as it was a work of fiction, even if it was based on somebody else in "real life" doing similar work.

And I will PM you cuz I'd like to see your work.

Thanks for posting.

politicat

(9,808 posts)
6. I think for Tichy, context is everything.
Sat Jun 22, 2013, 02:57 AM
Jun 2013

He lived in a world where individuality and self-expression were devalued, so each photograph was a definite rebellion against that. The photos he took (at least those in the linked article) are all impressions of individuals living their own lives despite the repressive culture. While the nature of his instruments make positive identification and association with individuals difficult if not impossible, I don't get a sense of objectification. (That could be the result of the article's curation.) Those pictures are are of real women, not fetishized objects. There's grief and joy and boredom and fatigue and exasperation and impatience and bemusement and tolerance in those prints -- which, if they were more fetishistic, those negative senses would be less well represented. And the nature of his instruments and the poor focus are effectively protective, in that his subjects couldn't be easily IDed and officially harassed if some official took it into zir head to do so. (I don't know much about the communist regime in the Czech Republic, but I did know some women in Ukraine who were involved in sexually explicit photography in the 70s and 80s under the Soviet Union -- cheesecake and Vargas type. It was officially banned, unofficially tolerated, but they would sometimes get questioned when the local cops needed to look busy and their jobs/rations/housing would often be threatened.)

Is there kink there? Eh. Probably, but Byron's kinks don't diminish the beauty of his poetry, and I consider Byron the man to be a waste of hair and whiskey. That the artist (be it Byron or Tichy or one of many others who behaved reprehensibly in pursuit of art) produced art doesn't redeem his transgressions against his subjects, but those transgressions don't destroy the value of the art, either. From a purely historical perspective, Tichy's photos are documentation of a lost world that wasn't well documented.

As for his cameras, those are a spark of brilliance.

As for Belloq... I've seen a few of his photos. Lots of exploitation there, but he wasn't the one responsible for most of it.

cliffordu

(30,994 posts)
7. Brilliant answer, thanks.
Sat Jun 22, 2013, 03:08 AM
Jun 2013

I am not as clear a thinker as you obviously are, I mean I cannot write well enough to touch on all the points you have.

One thing about Bellocq:

The rumor is that he paid every prostitute he ever photographed, and never touched one.

I doubt it true but it begs interesting questions about what truly is exploitation.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
8. An arguably artistic product of a rape culture. At least from the limited and very slanted
Sat Jun 22, 2013, 03:15 AM
Jun 2013

perspective you have chosen as a frame.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
9. He was an artist.
Sat Jun 22, 2013, 03:53 AM
Jun 2013

A performance artist.



Tichý certainly preferred his subjects to be women, most of whom were completely unaware that they were being photographed. Some just didn’t realize that his camera made of plywood and tin cans was even real, and would smile simply to be kind to the crazy local man with the long beard and his toy camera.


The images are innocuous and merely a record of the actual art, which was the artist himself. A man who wanted to express his individuality in a repressive regime, he found a way to mock the system that stifled him. He made clumsy absurd cameras and used his seemingly insane appearance to spy on people who, if they noticed him, thought him too ridiculous to fear. He was a voyeur hiding in plain sight, and doing so under a political system that made voyeurism public policy.

Born in 1926, Tichý could have become one of the prominent painters of the modernist Communist regime. He was accepted to the Academy of Fine Arts in Prague, but after the Communist takeover in 1948, he grew defiant of requirements to draw socialist workers in overalls rather than female nudes and quit the prestigious school. Tichý was quickly identified as a rebel by the oppressive regime who began making attempts at “normalizing” him (whatever that entailed). After his compulsory military service, Tichý became more eccentric.


I think that he decided that if the state wanted him to conform, he would. He became his image of the state. He became a deranged lunatic with clunky cobbled together technology put to use spying on others.

Sherman A1

(38,958 posts)
10. Thanks for Posting.
Sat Jun 22, 2013, 04:13 AM
Jun 2013

I will leave it to others as to discuss and decide his motivations.

I think the photos are superb! I really enjoyed seeing the camera and lens, simply amazing what he was able to assemble out of pretty much nothing.

Goes to the saying.... The Best Camera You Have is the One You Have With You.

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
13. Voyeurism, exploitation and art
Sat Jun 22, 2013, 05:57 AM
Jun 2013

Every photographer I know is a voyeur. We watch the world and document it. Anytime I take a photo of a person for the sake of art, I'm exploiting them. It all comes down to intent, IMO.

An example: I participate in a genre of photography called 'street photography.' This means I take pictures of strangers on the street. Often there is something about them or the moment that captures my attention, so I am driven to capture it with my camera. There are some, that are well known in the genre, that are very agressive about it. They get right up in the subjects face, use a flash and take a picture. They are revered as great artists.

Bruce Gilden:




Garry Winogrand:




Martin Parr:




Joel Meyerowitz:




You can argue that all art is exploitation in some form. It also comes down to what an individual considers art. One persons may see it as exploitation, another may see it as the best thing they've ever gazed upon.

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