Fine, you despise Snowden, have nothing but contempt for the dishonorable, traitorous little fuck

[cali]

Now how about the issues he put in the spotlight?

How about a massive surveillance apparatus that is growing exponentially?

How about the incestuous relationship between corporation and the government in the National Security Sphere?

How about FISA being a weak protection for Constitutional rights?

How about the extreme secretiveness of this nation's national security agencies. And by that I mean, keeping secret such things as how many are employed by the NSA and what their budget is?

How about the endless lying/prevaricating/dissembling/equivocating on the part of government officials about these programs?

How about the potential for greater abuses?

How about the weak system of oversight?

How about Orwellian National Security Letters and whether they're unconstitutional? (one federal judge has said they are)

Fer fuck's sake folks, the Snowden affair has put all of these issues front and center and all you can do is fulminate about Snowden. Is he really more important than the issues involved?

[graham4anything]

1. Are you talking to me? nt

[premium]

17. As a matter of fact,

you're one of the ones that cali is addressing with your blind obedience to what this Admin. is doing.
I've yet to see just ONE comment from you criticizing this Admin for ANYTHING, just fawning admiration.

[Aerows]

21. +1 n/t

[railsback]

28. We all need blind obedience to The Snowden

…where ever he may be.

[premium]

35. I'll tell you what,

I'll trust Snowden over anything the NSA/Alexander has to say. I lived throught the Church Hearings in the mid 70's and was appalled by what our intelligence services were doing, and, I believe, they've never stopped stomping on the Constitution since then.

[railsback]

57. Didn't know you had such intimate detail of his mental capacity.

People keep saying its not about the person, rather its about the 'story'. Well, the story is being told by 'the person'. As we all know, Libertarians have a warped sense of reality, so the chances of embellishments are pretty much a 'gimme'. A document dump on WikiLeaks would help, which makes me wonder why this hasn't happened already since they apparently are engaged in dialogue. Until then, belief requires a leap of faith, which I'm not going to take.

[Grassy Knoll]

68. This ^^^^

[tavalon]

268. Wow, Irony.

I would suggest a name change during the next amnesty period.

[A Simple Game]

93. I get the impression you don't believe the story.

Tell me, what part of the story has the NSA denied?

[railsback]

103. Why would a spying apparatus deny they're spying?

[A Simple Game]

121. I'm sorry, I thought you didn't believe the story. My mistake. n/t

[rhett o rick]

259. The irony. So if the spy agency doesnt deny they're spying, why prosecute Snowden for exposing

their spying? Of course there is spying and there is spying. It appears to me that you have easily normalize the new revelation that the NSA is exceeding the FISA law. You seem to be saying, "So what, we know they spy."

I say let's go back to the Constitution and start again.

[xtraxritical]

105. Hey! You try and FTP that stuff and it will take months! They know he's got it too.

[railsback]

111. I upload/download gigabytes of art files every week

so that's just wishful thinking on your part. A courier/mule is the safest, simplest way.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

219. I've heard of people doing that.

[stonecutter357]

117. This ^^^^

X2

[Aerows]

153. Good grief

It takes a leap of faith these days to see that surveillance of all communications is a bad thing?

Preserve me from such horseshit.

[railsback]

158. Unless you can prove that ALL COMMUNICATIONS are being surveilled

then that's just bagger talk.

[Aerows]

160. Oh my goodness

Bless your heart.

[railsback]

174. So, no proof

Just tinfoil, which proves my point that the lines are completely blurred now. When Bush was trying to sell us the Iraq War, we DEMANDED proof. DEMANDED. Now those roles are switched with the Right, who took that leap of faith and followed Bush into Hell. Snowden makes accusations with tidbits of info here and there, and suddenly his words are the gospel truth. You can believe whatever you want as long as you make yourself believe it.

[Aerows]

177. Uh

You wanted proof? Proof has been provided. It's people that are trying to CONVINCE other people that the proof is false that are acting kind of funny at this point.

[railsback]

220. Pass the bong!

Apparently I'm not high enough to see those pink elephants.

[tavalon]

271. You aren't bothering to do the research

If you would shut up for a half hour or so and go do the research, well, it isn't hard and it's there.

[railsback]

307. I certainly am

I'm just not wearing tin foil and sporting knee pads.

[tavalon]

345. Tell me, seriously,

when you aren't on this tizzy of yours, are your posts ever long and thoughtful and worth reading because if not, I am tiring of you and you might just make it onto a very, very small list. I don't like ignoring potentially informational cohorts. I haven't seen this in you and am just wondering if it's just this topic or all topics.

Your rapid response is appreciated as I haven't much time to parse out who needs to be ignored and who should be watched for useful information.

[JDPriestly]

246. I think that now, at least three witnesses have come forward. They

speak out every few years. Snowden brought documents with him including the court order to Verizon that we have seen. This is a way overly broad program. At least two senators have also complained about the program, frustrated by the fact that they know a great deal about it and cannot share what they know. That is very remarkable.

There is no doubt that a vast and uncontrolled and invasive program is in place -- a program that our government knows is morally and legally wrong. But our government is too embarrassed by the fact that the program is so bad that it can't bring itself to admit to what it is doing.

If the program were not as bad as we doomsayers think it is, the government would disclose all the details. Fact is, the program is this bad. Maybe worse than anything we believe it to be.

It is simply naive for someone to think that it is anything less than we think it is. Naive beyond belief. I suspect that the people who are denying the truth about the program are current or former NSA employees or employees of NSA or military contractors who are afraid of speaking out. Snowden's statements along with those of earlier whistleblowers are pretty devastating for our government.

[tavalon]

270. Ah, I don't miss the south and yet,

yes, indeedy, bless his heart, he ain't all that smart but he's got tenacity.

Hah, hah, hah. Nice to be able to laugh amidst this insanity.

[neffernin]

201. Unfortunately it has become

a huge outburst against the fairy-tale that Snowden told and very little of it is based on anything other than the few tidbits of info out there.

IT IS NOT THAT EASY TO COMPLETELY MONITOR ALL COMMUNICATIONS! Such powers would require so much red tape and such a huge amount of infrastructure upgrades that this would have leaked ages ago..... oh wait.... it did in 2006.

*sighs*

[sibelian]

267. So anti-surveillance is "bagger", now is it?

I see that "positions" on this board are getting simpler and simpler.

[railsback]

309. Bagging is the process of hurling accusations before facts

like FOX. Yes, positions ARE getting simpler and simpler. Murdoch built his empire on the premise that you 'worry about facts later', so congratulations!

Fact: Surveillance has been around for decades.
Fact: We don't know how the NSA operates, other than from a 'source' who said he could wiretap anyone, which is a false statement. So, unfortunately for those who believe our 4th Amendment rights are being violated, Snowden has made himself an issue since he's the one making the accusations.
Fact: No one knows if Snowden had any previous relations with foreign governments and/or activist groups, but we do know, by his own admission, that his only intention was to download 'information'. As for what he downloaded, no one knows that, either, or what he intends to do with it.
Fact: As the laws are written, no evidence is admissible without having been obtained through legal means (Weeks vs U.S.). Fun Fact: The 4th Amendment was written by the Founding Fathers because they were actually smugglers. They also could never have imagined a world wide web of trade and communication that could be carried out in a split second. It would be interesting to see how they would react to the world today.
Fact: President Obama, who took the oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, the Constitution that gave the People the right to make their own laws, has no choice but to uphold those laws as written. Snowden violated those laws as they are written.
Fact: Snowden fled the country to escape those laws, assuming he wouldn't get a 'fair' trial - which would be true based on his interpretation of 'fair', meaning the prosecution would have to overlook the fact that Snowden broke the laws as written to illegally obtain information. Wouldn't that be a 4th Amendment violation in court if the U.S. was the defendant?
Fact: As the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan famously said, 'Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.' Since Snowden is making these accusations, its up to him to produce those facts, or they just remain 'opinions' and 'assumptions'.

[tavalon]

266. Gee, haven't heard a word from Snowden for days

But there is so much corroborating evidence coming to the surface, it boggles. It also boggles that you are not willing to even look at it. A wikileaks dump would make you less recalcitrant. Wait a week. It's coming. Or just start reading foreign newspapers. It's all over the world.

Snowden is done. He did what had to be done and now he will pay a horrible price. That's the chance that whistleblowers take. But Dog bless every one.

Stop posting so damn much and go do some research. Many if not most people here understand the concept of journalistic research. We seem to understand it better than the lap dogs who constitute our "fourth estate".

[ReRe]

225. That's right...

... about the Church Hearings. That seems to be when the NSA really kicked in full speed ahead... right AFTER the Church Hearings.

[premium]

226. Yep.

They probably figured that the coast was clear, now time to go full throttle because nobody would be watching.
Sadly, this seemed to be the case.

[tblue]

125. Not to Snowden. To the Constitution.

It's not about him except that our govt is going to put him in a gulag probably without habeas corpus, another violation of our Constitution.

Whoever might be making this about any one person, it ain't me.

[George II]

130. "our govt is going to put him in a gulag probably without habeas corpus"

And how do you know that?

[GoneFishin]

179. You mean beyond having eyes, ears, and memory?

[George II]

227. I don't recall ever seeing, hearing, or remembering it happening.

[christx30]

181. Due to NDAA,

they can hold someone indefinatly without trial. Obama said in his signing statesment that he wouldn't use it. But when a federal judge struck it down, Obama fought like crazy to get it reinstated.
So being that Snowden is wanted for this type of crime, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that he could just be disappeared. I honestly don't blame him for not trusting the federal government at all. He has no obligation to turn himself in or make it easy to get him.

[tavalon]

272. Probably is a word that means likely

It's an opinion, requiring little knowledge, except perhaps what has happened to whistleblowers like this one before. But that isn't absolute proof, therefore, the term probably. Perhaps he should have said IMO. Would that have worked out better for you?

[tavalon]

264. Yeah, it gives one great confidence in our banana republic,

That they can't catch him when he's in a Russian airport and can't leave. And they still can't find him. Keystone cops. And these are the people you are happy to hand over your personal records to? It's a hoot.

BTW, you are either being paid by the word or you are obsessed in a fashion that might make you consider therapy. Look back at your last thousand posts. And no, I'm not stalking you. You are fucking everywhere and Snowden bashing all the way. I haven't seen one post were you look at the incredibly important information we have received.

You may be too young for Daniel Ellsburg (I would put money on that) but this leak is even more important than his and his ended up changing America, for the better, for a while. Got rid of a corrupt President.

[sibelian]

265. No, I don't think so.... but then...

I don't think anyone's really "obeying" him, are they? It's not as if he's giving anyone any actual instructions.

Perhaps you meant something else?

[L0oniX]

33. +2

[boomer55]

59. +3 n/t

[TakeALeftTurn]

186. +1 nt

.

[Scootaloo]

197. Is that what he posts?

Grahams's posts remind me of the time I met up with a fellow from the Virgin Islands. I'm speaking English. He's speaking English. We both know we're both speaking English, but neither of us have any idea what the other is saying.

[premium]

198. Yeah

it's mostly word salad, but he loves the surveillance, he loves the drones, one of his favorite sayings is a Ben Franklin quote "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" which he equates to that if we have more surveillance, then future attacks or crimes will be prevented and life will be grand.

[Scootaloo]

199. The irony of quoting Ben Franklin there is lost, I guess?

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety

[premium]

200. That's been pointed out many times,

but he tends to dismiss it as it not meaning what it says.
But I have noticed lately that his posts are actually getting easier to read and understand.

[Dragonfli]

205. Once when waxing poetic about Bloomberg, he opined we should be surveilled everywhere

In our bathrooms even. "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" was the rationale and a rhetorical still living Elvis presley was given as proof, he argued, that had he been monitored on the toilet, big brother could have intervened somehow.

A camera in Elvis's bathroom might just have been able to revive him and knock some sense into him instead of his needless death.

Why is every ounce of wellness rebuked.
Reminds me of the old joke about the drowning man and someone throwing him a lifejacket, rope and helicopter. While he refused and waited for God to save him.

Gov cameras in our bathrooms is an "ounce of wellness"?

[premium]

206. Ah, I remember that little gem.

Thanks for posting that.
Good find.

[tavalon]

274. We should put him and Railsbeck in a room and see what happens

It might be funny? Never know?

[Dragonfli]

316. Only if we can put DUer Random Thoughts in the room with them

I suspect that not only will such a braintrust be able to work out the line of presidential succession for the Obama and Clinton royal families for the next two dozen elections and work out a proper hit list for any and all hippie traitors, they can also work out finally how to get the beer money and travel expenses needed for such an adventure!

[tavalon]

343. Well, two out of the three of those, I would love to see in a bloody battle, but damn, I like Random

Thoughts and he lives up here. One day, I'm going to get him that beer money and see about the travel expenses.

[tavalon]

273. Bless his heart, he lacks the irony button!

[quakerboy]

310. Thats funny. I understand his posts perfectly

They line up word for word with what I would expect a lunatic RW nutter pretending to be a liberal would say in his place.

The caricature of liberalism from the twisted view of a RWer is almost artistic, in a way.

I'm just amazed that he hasn't been TS'd yet. But, as they say on the Internets, Epic Troll is Epic.

[RetroLounge]

322. This!

+100

RL

[Jesus Malverde]

314. Love the description....nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

213. Ralph Nader!

[premium]

223. By Jove mate,

I think you've got it, it's all a plot hatched by Ralph Nader.

[tavalon]

275. Dayum, it took 213 replies to invoke the name of the devil!

[Egalitarian Thug]

308. I think I'm on it's ignore list. This usually evokes the funniest raves...

[RetroLounge]

319. +1000

"...For anything that Obama wants!"

RL

[tavalon]

262. Some people actually take you seriously

I see you as comedy relief, so while Cali may be speaking to you, you can be assured I have nothing to say to you.

[Pale Blue Dot]

2. Can I add one to that?

How about the fact that in our desperate desire to bring the leaker to "justice" we have become the laughing stock of the world?

They justifiably (IMO) hate us and now they think we're incompetent boobs. Great work, intelligence communities!

[xtraxritical]

106. "we have become the laughing stock of the world"

long time now...

[Civilization2]

221. people are not laughing, they are rightfully terrified, and more likely to pity the people here.,

terrified to see the rise of a corporate-mercenary military/intelligence force that works for cash and will flatten any country for a shekel,.

Most people are sympathetic and are more likely to pity the average American.

[ProSense]

3. "dishonorable, traitorous little fuck"

Is that your opinion of him?

[cali]

8. get this through your head: I don't see Snowden as the issue.

No, I don't want him returned to the U.S. for trial because I think odds are considerable that he'd be mistreated or tortured and I doubt that he could get a fair trial.

[dkf]

12. Only making us look worse too.

My god...we torture people. What has happened ?

[sibelian]

20. Of course he'll be tortured.

Michael Hastings dead, raped Iraqis, Manning tortured, we're all racists and commies and Rand Paul supporters, how much more obvious can it get?

[xtraxritical]

107. Gitmo his ass.

[Egalitarian Thug]

215. "get this through your head"

As the words left your finger tips, you should have realizes...


Believe me, it gets so much better once you quit.

[LondonReign2]

48. ITS. NOT.ABOUT.SNOWDEN

That's the whole point of the OP.

But all you can do is deflect, deflect, deflect.

[ProSense]

62. Clearly,

"ITS. NOT.ABOUT.SNOWDEN"

...others don't agree.

No, Edward Snowden Is Not a 'Traitor'
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/24/1218345/-No-Edward-Snowden-Is-Not-a-Traitor

Amnesty International: USA must not hunt down or prosecute whistleblower Edward Snowden
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023083345

White House petition to pardon Snowden crosses threshold
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023083231

NSA Whistleblower Snowden Forced to Seek Political Asylum
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/24/1218339/-NSA-Whistleblower-Snowden-Forced-to-Seek-Political-Asylum

[darkangel218]

84. Honest question, no pun intended

How do you find your LINKS so freaking fast?

[Agony]

87. it is in the software

relational databases can be Wicked fast esp with a good frontend...

that would be my guess...

[darkangel218]

88. I see..

That's a lil too technical for me, I'm not sure how that works but ok :/

[Agony]

95. I think that was my point... it seems VERY professional

sorry about the technical crap.

ProSense? will likely weigh in here? ...

[sheshe2]

112. Well I just googled

Edward Snowden Democratic Underground

and this header tops the page: 17,500,000 results 0.29 seconds

~ no staffing required

[In Truth We Trust]

131. just sayin'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x693536

[Fuddnik]

94. I always assumed an office staff.

[xtraxritical]

110. He uses other DU posts and finds their sources.

[bobduca]

216. "Clipboard of Pragmatism +2"

one section on the clipboard for each of the day's talking points.

[Logical]

263. Quoted all your 500 descriptions of him I assume! I bet it....

Really annoys you this has 200 recs!

[backscatter712]

4. You racist teabagger you.

How dare you bring attention to the man behind the curtain!

[cali]

5. or the issues behind the man

[backscatter712]

9. Yes! We must pay attention to Snowden!

I hear he drinks milk straight out of the carton!

We can't talk about PRISM or warrantless wiretaps!

[Aerows]

23. I hear

he doesn't wash his hands after going to the restroom in his own home. HIS OWN HOME.

[premium]

41. OMFG!!!

DRONE HIM NOW!!!
He's a dire threat to the national security of this nation (read,large corporations).

[Aerows]

47. DRONE HIM NOW!!!

He might cause a drop in someone's stock portfolio!

[premium]

56. LOL.

What's scary is that someone in this Admin. might actually be considering this as an option and drawing up contingency plans for it.

[GoneFishin]

185. Of course they are.

[sibelian]

100. It's worse.

When he finishes packets of food, he leaves the empty packets in the CUPBOARD.

[Aerows]

155. My word

He probably drinks straight from the carton. The horror and shame of it all.

[cui bono]

233. HE RUNS WITH SCISSORS!!!

Clearly too dangerous to be left in public.

[Enthusiast]

149. I have never heard anything so disgusting in my life!

Drinking milk right out of the carton. That's worse than double dipping!

[xtraxritical]

113. Glenda was good to Dorothy.

Obscure obfuscation is my forte.

[tblue]

129. Firebagger Rand Paul Lover!

With no liberal cred. I am patrioticker than thou!

(I'm with you. I am seriously tired of the name callers too. But the best defense is offense and that explains that behavior I guess. I have yet to see a true defense of these programs.)

[Swede Atlanta]

211. The problem is it doesn't matter which man/woman is behind the curtain....

We have created an Imperial Presidency that knows no bounds. He/she think they are God and should have be able to kill whoever they want, whenever they want even if it just some gas in their ass.

This was NOT what the founding fathers imagined for our country. In fact they wanted an executive that was subject to the vigorous oversight of the Congress (limp as wilted spinach) and the Supreme Court (bought and paid for by the corporations).

We are so totally screwed. I'm glad I am approaching retirement. My financial advisor has begun to move my funds to my offshore tax haven and upon retirement I am out of here.

[leftynyc]

6. Two separate issues

and both deserve discussion. Are you saying the issue of NSA spying on Americans hasn't gotten enough attention on this board?

[cali]

11. why yes, yes I am. Snowden gets 10x the attention, but that's not the point of the OP

To put it bluntly, the people on this board intent on focusing on and excoriating Snowden, are the people not discussing what they think of the issues I ask about in my OP.

[leftynyc]

27. I disagree with you

I think the out of control NSA and the piece of shit legislation called the patriot act are getting loads of attention, discussion and time. Snowden comes into the conversation for obvious reasons - he's still looking a place to land. Hypocrisy always gets a lot of attention here and having someone decrying the lack of transparency from our government while holing up in China and Russia is hypocrisy cubed.

[cali]

34. all you have to do is count the number of threads on Snowden and the number of threads

on the issues he put under the spotlight. Far more Snowden ops.

One poster has posted 70 about him.

[leftynyc]

63. To me, that doesn't mean anything

If there are 70 OP's with a few comments vs 25 with tons of comments - I'm not curious enough to do that homework. I simply think this issue (the NSA) has been covered from many different angles - I think we can all agree it's supremely messed up and something needs to be done but commenting on a discussion board is not going to get it done. Everybody needs to contact their congressional representatives.

With Snowden, more details about him come out every day. For instance, I just read that he got the job with the contractor for the express purpose of stealing the documents - so as I've been saying since the beginning, he's not a whistleblower. It's only because the news about Snowden changes every day that people are talking about him.

[Lucinda]

69. "It's only because the news about Snowden changes every day that people are talking about him."

Agreed.
We all KNOW there are very serious problems at hand, but he is uppermost in a lot of minds because there are so many questions, and info is slow in coming so each new thing gets digested.

[bobduca]

236. SEVENTY ORIGINAL POSTS

BY THE SAME PERSON

[leftynyc]

247. Then your beef is with that person

You can't say threads about Snowden are not news if something "new" comes out just about every single day. We already know what the documents he sold say, what we've learned from them and that is certainly a conversation that needs having. That hardly means we can't walk and chew gum at the same time and it also doesn't mean it's a distraction from what the NSA is responsible for - we can handle both.

[tavalon]

285. Block them unless the information contained in their OP leads to interesting conversation

about what really needs to be talked about and that's not Snowden, as you know.

[tavalon]

280. Railsbeck?

He seems well, a little off the rails right now, bless his tiny, tiny, heart.

[tavalon]

279. They are the only countries he can hope to get safety within

Sucky choices but he is quite the smart cookie and has decided that life in an authoritarian govt. who states up front that that is what they are is better than the US that lies about it's rapid descent into authoritarian govt. Actually, it's a marriage of a Republic and corporatism, also known as fascism.

[leftynyc]

284. See, I don't think he's very smart at all

He's given up his country, his family, his girlfriend and for what? And your hyperbole is boring.

[dkf]

49. Supposedly they support it..

Yet the poll which explicitly asked the question got 2 votes, one of which was Manny.

[xtraxritical]

115. What Snowden is SAYING is that THEY (contractors) can dig down to your passwords

if they want to. He said he could do the President of the USA if he wanted to, for starters.

[randome]

134. And yet he showed us no evidence of that claim.

He is not trustworthy, IMO.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[chimpymustgo]

150. Is Clapper trustworthy? Gen. Alexander? Really curious to know.

[tavalon]

286. There are many sources now for that very claim.

What specifically would help you understand the evidence? Since I work back to back 12 hour nights and this is how I relax in the morning, I don't really have time (nor inclination) to help you. Perhaps you could do that footwork? It's all there for the taking. Use foreign resources though. "When they control the flow of information, they can bend it any way they want. "

Extra credit for anyone recognizing that last statement. I use to hate that song. Now, I get it. Only too well.

[randome]

305. Snowden said he had the authorities to spy on the President's email.

He was a Systems Analyst, not an Intelligence Analyst. The fact that he did not provide evidence that he had these authorities makes him suspect.

He also said the NSA had 'direct access' to the world's Internet providers. All the companies involved say that's bullshit.

He said the NSA can watch our thoughts form as we type.

He said the NSA is downloading the Internet on a daily basis.

The only 'evidence' he showed was the legal warrant for phone metadata and the fact that we spy on other countries -both of which were already known.

So, no, I do not find Snowden credible. I'll believe anything he says provided he shows me evidence.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[tavalon]

347. I'll be expecting those links

As you of course know, they need to reputable sources and each must be double sourced. It's funny that I have to keep reminding people that as journalists (yeah, except for the paid moles, that's what we've become), we need to show veracity and extreme focus on the facts, not the fun.

DU used to be fun. Now we are in the middle of something huge and we need to start acting like it. We are the Fourth Estate. Either act like it or bow out. Admit you're paid so we can blow you off, if that's the case.

Otherwise, link or shut up.

Seriously.

[sibelian]

13. Everyone's gotta have a hobby.

Some people like watching the Kardashians. Whatever they are. Some TV show of some kind. People's lives are interesting.

[xtraxritical]

118. ^THAT^'s good!

[tavalon]

287. There's actually a TED talk about gossip

It's really good. Of course, saying a TED talk is good is like saying water is wet. Must head to bed soon, so I can't look it up right now. Sorry.

[tavalon]

276. yes

[sibelian]

7. They aren't interested.

It's THIS BOARD that's the focus of their interest.

[Maedhros]

143. Their posts are aimed at readers, not other posters.

They have no intention or interest in engaging on the issues. Doing so causes cognitive dissonance, so they instead target the personalities involved. That way if someone follows a link here to read up on the issue, they will be bombarded with an overwhelming number of posts ridiculing the notion that the government has done something wrong.

Attacking the messenger to obfuscate the message is a tried and true tactic - cf. the Dean Scream, "Al Gore invented the Internet," Obama is a Kenyan/Muslim/Fascist/Socialist, etc.

[sibelian]

167. Yes, I believe that.

However, it is a poor strategy. Their message is never without counter-argument.

[Maedhros]

210. Yes. And their message is also weakened

because they neither present good faith arguments nor provide evidence for their assertions.

[sibelian]

281. ... also their assertions are intensely repetitive and tend to degrade in quality.

they slowly start look sillier and sillier.

I saw several of them claiming Bradley Manning wasn't tortured recently. It's a matter of public record.

[tavalon]

288. Very perceptive Maedhros

[DonCoquixote]

10. k and r

the fact that 2+2=4
does not invalidate that 2+3=5

One fact does not disprove the other.

[xtraxritical]

119. Is it axiomatic or is there a proof?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. It's like blaming the guy who turned the light on while ignoring the roaches he exposed.

[jsr]

38. Perfect!

[Scuba]

60. Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.

[pmorlan1]

74. Great Line

That's great. I like that line. Fair warning: I will steal that line from you. lol Posting on Twitter now. lol Just teasing...I gave you credit for it (twitter pmcall). Thanks.

[hueymahl]

99. So Good! NT

[xtraxritical]

120. You should write a book.

[truebluegreen]

165. DUzy nt

[GoneFishin]

187. Awesome analogy!

[DeSwiss]

230. Excellent!!!

- COTD

[sibelian]

269. Exactly.

[tavalon]

289. Wow, that's good

[TeeYiYi]

294. Your analogy is so perfect!

TYY

[Dragonfli]

317. You nailed it! You always find the perfect quotes, this time the perfect quote is your own!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

318. "I endeavor to please, sir." Jeeves

[treestar]

15. How bad is it?

Before, when we didn't know about it, nobody noticed anything wrong. IMO this metadatabase doesn't have a big profound effect. People with problems with national security have not complained. Where are people from some mosque, for instance, hearing suspicious clicks on their phones? Everyone knows about the people at Gitmo and they've done a hunger strike. Who has been targeted due to their phone having called some number too many times? What politicians have gone down recently and why and how did the NSA have anything to do with it? Weiner? That was his fault.

Hell the only thing that's happened is the Marathon Bombing, from which the complaint was the government "dropping the ball" not that it had too much power.

What members of Occupy have been killed, jailed, or thrown under the bus.

[cali]

18. you mean YOU didn't notice anything wrong.

Plenty of people have never stopped noticing.

[xtraxritical]

122. Generally People stopped noticing a given.

[treestar]

176. This is a headache

Like a stress headache. People are trying to pretend it's a brain tumor. This can be dealt with.

If Snowden hadn't done this, the Republic would still be functioning.

[tavalon]

290. This Republic is joining with the corporatocracy

Do you know what that's called?

Fascism.

It's not here today, maybe not tomorrow, but we are on the well worn road.

[treestar]

330. Italy was fascist

The US is not. Mindless reference to "the corporatocracy" does not change reality.

[tavalon]

342. Those who choose to not learn about the past are doomed to repeat it.

The trains ran on time in Italy. Do you think the average Italian even realized they were in a vise grip? Thought about that much? No, probably not.

[treestar]

353. Of course they did

And nothing runs on time in the USA. And you can appeal government decisions. It may take a while. Nothing works perfectly. But basically, we live under the rule of law.

[dixiegrrrrl]

326. " the Republic would still be functioning. "

for whose benefit has the Republic been functioning?

Even if Snowden never existed, I can assure you the republic is not functioning in a healthy way.

[marions ghost]

22. "when we didn't know about it, nobody noticed anything wrong..."

logic?

[Maedhros]

144. When you pay attention,

you're only helping The Terrorists.

[treestar]

178. Shows the extent of the trouble

They have the database but they haven't been able to quell all criticism and dissent with it. They haven't taken out any political opponents with it. Mainly, because it can't be used for much other than to maybe look and see if person X has called person Y. And most of that information is useless.

Has anyone's affair been exposed so they got kicked out of office? Anyone lose their job for their political leanings? Anyone thrown under any bus anywhere?

People are calling on the doom of the Republic over this database that has not really got any real ability to take it all down. If it did, Bush would still be in office.

[marions ghost]

195. I can't blame you for not understanding

how this secret surveillance activity insults and abuses all Americans, and does the same to people in many other countries. A lot of people used to thinking of America as a free country, lack the capacity to fully grasp what is going on. All I can say is, stay tuned. Without writing a dissertation on it I can't fill you in. But here's my brief response to what you said. I have no desire to argue, so please consider it, that's all I ask:

--Just the fact of this secret activity chills communication & quells dissent.
--The information is highly useful to anyone who wishes to monitor others.
--Bush doesn't need to be in office as long as the Bushite policies remain.

The implications are profound. If the current policies are not changed we are open to future totalitarianism. Some would say we are there already. We are certainly a self-serving corporatocracy with an out-of-control NSA. The implications are frightening.

Thank you for an honest expression of how you think. We can disagree. But stay tuned, and do some outside reading on how we got to this crossroads. Because we are at a crossroads for democracy.

[quakerboy]

315. Not even a little.

Think about a police officer.

He has a gun.

If he is a good guy, he may never have to use that gun on anyone, and if he does, it will be against a bad guy.

If he is your average everyday dude, he may never have to use that gun, but he will if he feels threatened or runs into a badguy.

If he is a sociopath with anger issues, he may never have to use that gun, but he probably will, and it probably will cost someone their life, and it probably wont be a real threat or badguy.


This is like that. Best case scenario, Obama is the good guy. He's not going to use that gun except against bad guys. But there's always another McCain, another Romney, somewhere down the line. Hopefully not in 2016 or 2020. But say, 2024, the nation gets stupid and elects one of these republicans president. Is there even a crumb of doubt in your head that they WILL make use of this tool against their political enemies?

Worst case scenario.. How do you know? Quelling all criticism would draw backlash. Better to use such a tool to undermine Effective dissent, and leave the rabble alone to vent. You use what you get, gin up what you cant, and eliminate, say, the Spitzers and Siegelmans. You leave the Benjamin's and the Kucinich's, who are loud, but no real threat. It sure looks to me like plenty of people have lost their jobs over political leanings. But the whole thing is under this cover of darkness, so we have no way of knowing how far it has gone.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. Before the dermatologist found the melanoma on my nose....

I didn't notice anything wrong. Following your logic, instead of acting promptly to have it removed I should have fired my dermatologist.

[xtraxritical]

124. Possibly shoot off your nose to spite your face?

[treestar]

180. Better analogy might be something internal you cannot see

still, here the symptoms would have to be a real loss of freedom, no?

Since we can all still say what we want and do what we want and go where we will even when the government has this database, it's not really effective at creating the tyrannical state allegedly feared.

If it had come out where some group of people felt really oppressed, it would be different. If a mosque complained it was being spied on - many of them probably are yet no one here is outraged.

[GoneFishin]

191. There are pros among us. Nobody is that dense.

[tavalon]

291. But damn, they aren't very good

Is the best the intelligence community can send? I mean, really, without calling anyone out, clearly there are a number of professional trolls on this OP alone. Bless their hearts, they aren't exactly smart.

[Dragonfli]

320. the neo-liberal conservative authoritarian hobbyist plumbers are also pitifully ironic at times

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3089357

[progressoid]

139. holy shit

[TakeALeftTurn]

192. Plenty of people knew about it.

And plenty of people knew it was wrong and extremely dangerous.

[HardTimes99]

16. + Infinity! - nt

[BeyondGeography]

19. He's the one who made himself into a bright, shiny object

It's not just here. I know you understand how the media always works; there's a lead player in this drama so it's personalized. He will be personally destroyed (and it's becoming increasingly clear how easy that will be) and the important issues that he helped raise will take a back seat for awhile. But I do think that the mid-terms and 2016 will a) prove this was much bigger than Snowden and b) restore a semblance of reason to the discussion that is presently lacking.

[xtraxritical]

127. "...there's a lead player in this drama so it's personalized." Get over it please!

[Thinkingabout]

24. Cali, this scumbag probably has delivered your personal phone call records to whomever he could

peddle them, is this what you would like? At least within the NSA they are not peddling your records over the world. He does not care what he is peddling, this is not his place to deliver these records. It might sound good at the moment but you have to look at the larger picture, we don't know the results of his diarrhea of the mouth. He is not helping Americans, lots of us already knew these records was being collected if they paid attention. There is more to this story that we have heard, don't think we have heard the last of this, I think there will be more arrests.

[cali]

29. oh fer the love of reason

first of all you don't know that. secondly the incestuous ties between the NSA and corporate America hardly inspires any confidence in the NSA. Not to mention the revolving door between the NSA and corporations.

You don't know his motives or what he's done or will do. Now how about the issues in the OP?

[Thinkingabout]

45. And you don't know this has not happened. Do you know his motives? His actions sure has not been

with integrity.

[Warren Stupidity]

152. "And you don't know this has not happened" <--- works in the religion forum, not so much out here.

[Thinkingabout]

156. Do you know?

[Warren Stupidity]

161. i don't know a lot of things. For example I don't know if you are paid to post here or not.

But I don't go around here making extraordinary claims like you just did and demanding that others prove that your claims didn't happen.

[tavalon]

293. Duzy!

[backscatter712]

164. Guilty until proven innocent...

[Bluenorthwest]

40. Can you support the assertion he is selling our records OR that NSA contractors are not?

Of course not. Hurling a bunch of fiction does not make a case. Disgusting tactic.

[Thinkingabout]

51. Tell this to Snowden, the reasoning so far is not based on the laws of the US.

[Skidmore]

44. I agree with you.

He is not helping anyone, here or else where. Those who will treat their citizens poorly in other nations will continue to do so. They have no vested interest in doing more than digging a big hole to bury that information. There is no way that he is not being alleviated of information as he passes through these ports. And he has exposed every American citizen to who knows what. Now I don't agree that the NSA should have all the power it does and that those laws which govern it should be changed and oversight should be increased. Transparency in oversight is essential. However, this is not what Snowden has done. If Rand Paul is his hero, why didn't he take this to Paul to put out there? Or to another legislator to bring forward?

[tavalon]

295. Because he's smart and doesn't want to end up dead.

He probably will, but honestly, most of us have the drive and desire.

[Myrina]

50. ... and therein lies THE ENTIRE POINT

.... the the gov't has this mechanism - in collaboration with telecomms etc - to hire 'scumbags' to monitor any and everyone's data, which gives them totally open-ended opportunities TO peddle them to whomever, in direct conflict with the 4th Amendment to the Constitution that our President and every member of both Houses swore to uphold.

So thank you for making Cali's point.

[Pale Blue Dot]

53. +1000 nt

[sibelian]

101. +1 THANK YOU

[myrna minx]

250. +1!

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Why is the NSA collecting that data

From people who have done nothing to begin with? That is the freaking point.

Now if he delivered Cali's records or mine...I will be impressed as to the capacity of his thumb drive.

[Thinkingabout]

78. What about the laptops reported China has gotten the information. You don't know what he has passed

on to others.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. You said he passed our info

Free clue, industrial and military espionage of us on them, and them on us, is called Tuesday. It's not really news.

What is news is that our dear leaders are making US citizens suspects of the state like they do to theirs. The latter, as in China keeping tabs on citizens, that is Wednesday.

What is also news is that we have taken control of critical life support systems in Chinese hospitals. That is not either Tuesday or Wednesday. In fact, it could be seen, like blowing up facilities in Iran, as an act of war. For the Iran story read the Wired magazine story on General Keith Alexander's little empire. No leaks required...Stuxnet got loose. It really sent control systems f allied governments and companies just stir crazy.

You think they won't retaliate? Are you that naive?

Oh wait, it's a democrat doing it...it's ok.

[Thinkingabout]

116. Do you think this is evidence Snowden is innocent?

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. Try reading comp next time

This stopped being about the footnote a while ago...

This is about what DC is doing.

Are you that afraid of the comm....errr terrorist under the bed you are willing to justify acts of war? When they retaliate, it won't be a cyber Pearl Harbor on the US...we started this shit. General Alexander is right though....real people will die.

[tavalon]

297. Aw, aren't you just precious.

I'm guessing your critical thinking skills aren't up to snuff. Neither is your comprehension.

[tavalon]

296. It's called Tuesday

That was cute and true.

[bvar22]

64. Do you have ANY documentation at all to support the suspicions you are listing?

(Snowden) "probably has delivered your personal phone call records to whomever he could peddle them,"

Do you have any idea how absurd that claim is?

[East Coast Pirate]

83. By your logic I shouldn't care what happens in black neighborhoods

since it doesn't affect me.

[Democracyinkind]

252. Burden of proof

check it out, report back.

[tavalon]

292. You might add, "In my opinion"

because you have no facts to back up that assertion. Most DUers know better than that. At least the ones who have learned the journalistic skills that should be part and parcel with every journalist. We are now the journalists of the internet. Buck up and act like one. Learn about first hand sources, second hand sources. Never make absolute statements unless you have two unimpeachable resources.

When I got here so many years ago, I knew nothing (John Snow) but I learned and I learned.

[jwirr]

25. What we are doing is shooting the messenger.

[truth2power]

52. Of course we are! Diverts attention from the issues, don'cha know...

http://wikkorg.wordpress.com/2013/06/02/the-25-rules-of-disinformation/

[robinlynne]

26. who are you talking to?

[cali]

31. I'm talking to the people that are posting post after post

about evil Edward Snowden and ignoring the issues the whole affair has brought to light.

I don't see how I could have been much clearer.

[ProSense]

39. People are not

"I'm talking to the people that are posting post after post about evil Edward Snowden and ignoring the issues the whole affair has brought to light."

...going to stop talking about Snowden.

Snowden is one issue and NSA oversight is another.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023083231

[Warren Stupidity]

154. you mean these are all robo posts? well i guess Im not surprised at that revelation either.

[sibelian]

278. Indeed they are not.

Soon there will not be a single sentence typed on any computer that does not contain the word "Snowden".

[RetroLounge]

324. OMG! A link back to yourself

Fucking amazing!!!!



RL

[bvar22]

334. She does that a lot.

No sense of Shame.
No sense of Irony.

[railsback]

32. Drake, Binney and Wiebe ran away, too

Oh, wait, no. They stood and fought the good fight. Sorry. But they are sitting in jail cells, rotting away.. oh, no, that's not right, either.

[cali]

42. And they all support Snowden. Funny that.

And Drake didn't suffer at the hands of the government at all, right? right?

bzzzt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Andrews_Drake

Prior NSA Whistleblower Warns Edward Snowden: Government Will Seek "Revenge and Retaliation"
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/nsa-whistleblower-drake-edward-snowden-goverment-will-seek-revenge-retaliation

They all support his fleeing the U.S.

[railsback]

71. They're happy that they feel vindicated

but THEY DIDN'T RUN. I don't see anything in those links showing approval of fleeing the country. Apparently they actually love this country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. They fully support him

Since their lives were destroyed. So does a certain former CIA operative. Real people died on that one...when are we bringing Chenney to the court for charges of espionage and aiding a foreign power, particularly oh Iran.

[railsback]

75. I don't see them endorsing Snowden's flight

[TakeALeftTurn]

193. Binney & Drake's lives were wrecked by the state.

Drake was threatened with 35 years in jail under the Espionage Act until the charges were dropped because they did not hold water.

He was still under the cosh for several years until the charges were dropped.

If we are talking threats and how far the authorities will go - lets talk about Aaron Swartz.

[railsback]

196. Didn't run = MEN

[eridani]

237. Didn't run = very happy that at least other people learned from their miistake n/t

[cui bono]

239. That has no substance what so ever.

What difference does it make to the situation?

Whether he left the country or not and whether past whistleblowers approve of him leaving or not does not change what is happening.

[railsback]

244. He said he would 'die for this country'

..just not right now.. or in the near or distant future.

[cui bono]

245. Again, what does that have to do with the NSA spying?

How does that change things?

[randome]

251. He also said he was not in Hong Kong to hide from justice.

Last edited Tue Jun 25, 2013, 08:22 AM - Edit history (1)

Yeah, he's hiding.

The man is not trustworthy. He's not as good as his word and he is giving away secrets to other governments.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[cui bono]

311. Still has nothing to do with the NSA spying.

Amazing how people just won't let it go and focus on the important stuff.

[randome]

321. Since all we have to go on are his allegations without evidence...

...then yes, it becomes about his character and motivations.

Why didn't he provide evidence that he could hack into the President's email?

Why didn't he provide evidence that the NSA has 'direct access' into the world's Internet providers? (A claim roundly refuted by all the companies involved.)

Why didn't he provide evidence that the NSA can watch our thoughts form as we type?

Why didn't he provide evidence that the NSA downloads the Internet on a daily basis?

Why didn't he explain what he meant when he said he "saw things"?

Face it, other than the metadata warrant (which we already knew about) and the fact that we spy on other counties (also known), the rest of Snowden's claims are expected to be taken at face value without any corroborating evidence.

He was a Systems Administrator, not an Intelligence Analyst, so he never had the access he claimed else he would have provided evidence.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[cui bono]

328. The question at hand was him fleeing the country.

I see you aren't the original poster I was replying to so I see why you're going off on a tangent.

[tavalon]

298. He probably will

and he is not the question at hand. Try talking about that. It's far more important than the whistleblower.

[tavalon]

349. What, you don't think Obama's henchmen can get him?

They got Osama Bin Ladin, by impersonating medical personel (something previously banned, but hey, not much is banned these days). Surely Snowden can't be that hard.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Cause if we talk of Evil Snowden

We don't have to face to the monster in our midst.

It's a classic propaganda technique. What is frustrating to those using it is that it is not working.

[Myrina]

37. Just exactly how TPTB and their media toads want it.

They know a good majority of Americans are superficial as hell and can't think their way out of a dixie cup, and they're playing this for all the Reality-TV-ness they can get.

Meanwhile, the unjustified snooping continues.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. You have upgraded people

From wet paper bag to Dixie cup?

Thanks for the laugh.

[BrainDrain]

43. Dude it is far easier to.....

kill the messanger in this case than to look at the message.

Look at all the people here who would have to admit to what their hero president is presiding over.

NSA, Manning, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc etc etc.

Not much hope or change in all that is there?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

86. They're doing both. They are glad they know and hate who told them...

Also, as Stewart put it, it's not that the President broke the law, it's that he didn't have to.

[cui bono]

240. Which is worse.

Just because they made it legal on a technicality, it remains unconstitutional and therefore remains illegal.

The fact that Obama took an unconstitutional program of BushCo's and put it on steroids and then made it "legal" on a technicality is worse than leaving it illegal on the books, as it really is in practicality, and sneaking it past us. It's much bigger now and more entrenched in the NSA and it will be harder to break up and get rid of it.

So much for electing a constitutional scholar/lawyer.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

243. To think I once described Republicans as idiots for voting for an oil guy to lower the price of gas.

[DevonRex]

55. LOL you still believe everything the little sniveling scumbag told you.

Hilarious. Even after he admitted he only took the job at BAH to steal TSSI info and give it to all the other countries. Fucking hilarious.

You've been played like a fiddle by Greenwald the lawyer and a 2-bit hacker traitor.

That TSSI court ruling that sounds so damning, saying the system violated the 4th? That was the result of the periodic audit of records required by law. It was done and submitted to the FISA Court as it was supposed to be done. The court didn't like what they saw. So changes were made in the system to prevent too much data from being collected. Now the court is happy. They FIXED THE FUCKING PROBLEM. The oversight WORKED. Thast should make you happy.

But not when a sleazy journalist/ex-lawyer teams up with a traitor to the United States. Funny how that works. Next thing you know DUers are cheering on a traitor and China and fucking KGB Putin.

[cali]

66. whooshy, whoosh, whoosh

have I been played by Binney? By Drake? By Weibe? Have I been played by Senators Sanders, Udall, Wyden and Leahy? Have I been played by Plame and Wilson? Have I been played by my Rep, Peter Welch? None of the above think that "it's been fixed.".

Have I been played the none too stellar history of the NSA?

Grab a clue. or try to. Not about Snowden except in the sense that he brought this crap back into the spotlight.

You've been played like a fiddle by the administration, sweetheart.

[DevonRex]

82. You'd better check the whooshes flying over hour own head.

They've been whizzing by at a steady clip ever since Snowden popped up but you've ignored them all. He hasn't revealed anything I didn't already know, for one. And what he did say contained lies and exaggerations. Which was my POINT above in just ONE example.

It's time you did a little fact checking (with some legitimate resources, not Make-a-quick-buck-Greenwald) on your own. I'm not spoon feeding you guys anymore. You either give a shit or you don't. Looks like you don't from where I sit. You'd rather just run around with your hair on fire over lies than find out the truth.

Don't you understand? He lied about the PROGRAMS. He lied about the RULING. He lied about WHY HE DID THIS.

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1268209/exclusive-snowden-sought-booz-allen-job-gather-evidence-nsa

[cali]

96. hey, how about addressing what Plame and Wilson and all the others have said

which directly contradicts everything YOU claim?

[Puglover]

260. And the crickets are lovely here.

[sibelian]

283. They can't.

All they can do....

is point at Snowden.

It's all they've got.

They'll keep on forever.

[mshasta]

169. that's how I feel

Me with out having the proper education can read between lines...

*He's income was 200K , with just a GED?
My daughter, pays for a college degree and gets nothing but shit from a costumer service job

*He haven't show proof or any documents to us the American People, we pay for he's check.

*He had the perfect Medical Benefits ...401k..etc
In my household only one is cover...I haven't seen a dentist in years, I have a child that needs dental work, plus glasses,

*He's House in Hawaii very nice rental..trips to Europe pay by Taxpayers like us

*He's able to afford 3 weeks hotel room in Hong Kong with full room service? wow!!
plus he ask for a sick time and getting pay during that time with only being at that specific job less than 4 months?
my husband can take only 3 days tops in a 6 years old job!

*He run like a good coward instead of facing Congress and the American People

...he sign up for that job with the worse possible intention...motive...and that's all I need to know from this individual.

[cui bono]

241. If your point is that we shouldn't be paying people to spy on us,

especially contractors from private corporations, I agree whole heartedly.

Everything you listed is the reason we should not be contracting out govt work at much higher rates than it would cost if the govt did it themselves. But this whole program should be gotten rid of and rebooted as something that is actually constitutional and effective at nailing terrorists, which was the whole point of it.

[tavalon]

299. IMO, is your friend here

We all have opinions and we are entitled to them, even if they conflict. We are not, however, entitled to our facts. So use opinion words unless you have two unimpeachable resources and make sure you list them. We didn't ask for the job but since the press isn't doing their job, we need to take a crash course in appropriate journalism and use it without fail. We are the press now. Please don't create your opinion into facts.

[cynzke]

109. And now they plan to write a book.

Could this get any more contrived?

[DevonRex]

114. I'm sure they've contacted Oliver Stone for a movie deal already, LOL.

But I think Mr. Stone is smart enough to pass until this plays out a bit.

[Warren Stupidity]

157. as a fallback you could work Michael Moore into it too.

And then perhaps Taibbi. Greenwald is a freebie with this one. Anything to divert away from the actual issue. How about Nader? he's always good as a goto boogeyman.

[michigandem58]

58. Then get the law changed

That's your problem.

[Harmony Blue]

73. Actually what the NSA is doing is illegal

[randome]

81. Another 'back door access' for the NSA claim.

Without a shred of evidence to support it. And roundly refuted by all the companies involved.

This video just rehashes Snowden's claims for him. Hardly objective because an objective viewpoint would include reasons -evidence- to support the contention.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Harmony Blue]

85. U.S. government has admitted to this

watch the video again.

[randome]

90. There is no 'back door access'.

There are secure FTP servers on which the companies place data they are required to turn over to the government by way of a legal warrant.

What is so hard to understand about this?

Sure, everyone up and down the line could be lying to us but then so could Snowden.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[blkmusclmachine]

61. +1. Sock puppets/cheerleaders/apologists say: "Shoot the messenger, and ignore the message."

[LanternWaste]

67. Hence, an additional thread about people obsessing on Mr. Snowden rather than the issues.

"and all you can do is fulminate about Snowden ..."

Hence, an additional thread about people obsessing on Mr. Snowden rather than the issues.

[cali]

70. yeah, no issues whatsoever brought up in the thread

try fucking basic reading.

[LanternWaste]

79. The OP though, was indeed about Mr. Snowden, and merely used the issues to compare and contrast.

The OP though, was indeed about Mr. Snowden, and merely used the issues to compare and contrast the obsessions you perceive against the lack or attention being given to the issues.

I do enjoy "basic reading" but will most likely avoid "fucking basic reading", as it sounds both redundant and vulgar... which may or may not be par for the course for fat too many people.



If you are in fact, this frustrated with post re: Mr. Snowden, it it possible simply to ignore those posts and read past them for the information relevant to the issues themselves?

[cali]

97. no it wasn't. the body of the OP was about the issues that have been put under the spotlight

[tavalon]

300. Woah, reading comprehension bad

Read it again.

[Coccydynia]

72. I guess because we ignored the issues

In the past (the "old news" defense) we should ignore them in the present.

That kind of thinking would have kept slavery in place much longer. Maybe it did. That kind of thinking would have stalled the Civil Rights movement. Maybe it did.

[dkf]

76. Props to you Cali...

[Buzz Clik]

77. I am so relieved to see this post.

I was afraid we'd go a full 30 minutes without rehashing the same old shit in a brand new thread.

Whew. Just in the nick of time.

[AtomicKitten]

147. !!!

[Number23]

228. ha!

[tavalon]

301. If we are lucky, this will be the only thing on DU for some time to come

We're not likely to be lucky that way. Unfortunately.

[nineteen50]

80. For way too many it is not about issues it is about

protecting Obama and his legacy.

[RetroLounge]

325. His legacy is already fucked.

RL

[nineteen50]

327. Then why spend so much time protecting

him. For me he is part of the same power-elite as his republican opposition. They both belong to the same country club and are just fighting over who gets the tips at the club bar.

[RetroLounge]

336. Maybe you should ask the people protecting him?

RL

[nineteen50]

338. I thought there were people here.

[L0oniX]

91. Paul Revere was a leaker. The scum bag coward should have turned himself in.

[darkangel218]

92. Youre right on, Cali. nt

[Agony]

98. check.

spot on, Cali

Cheers,
Agony

[deurbano]

102. Exactly. See # 5 of "Five MYTHS about the National Security Agency"

By James Bamford, Published: June 21

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-the-national-security-agency/2013/06/21/438e0c4a-d37f-11e2-b05f-3ea3f0e7bb5a_print.html

5. Snowden could have aired his concerns internally rather than leaking the documents.

I’ve interviewed many NSA whistleblowers, and the common denominator is that they felt ignored when attempting to bring illegal or unethical operations to the attention of higher-ranking officials. For example, William Binney and several other senior NSA staffers protested the agency’s domestic collection programs up the chain of command, and even attempted to bring the operations to the attention of the attorney general, but they were ignored. Only then did Binney speak publicly to me for an article in Wired magazine.

In a Q&A on the Guardian Web site, Snowden cited Binney as an example of “how overly-harsh responses to public-interest whistle-blowing only escalate the scale, scope, and skill involved in future disclosures. Citizens with a conscience are not going to ignore wrong-doing simply because they’ll be destroyed for it: the conscience forbids it.”

And even when whistleblowers bring their concerns to the news media, the NSA usually denies that the activity is taking place. The agency denied Binney’s charges that it was obtaining all consumer metadata from Verizon and had access to virtually all Internet traffic. It was only when Snowden leaked the documents revealing the phone-log program and showing how PRISM works that the agency was forced to come clean.

[SCVDem]

104. Blame the GOP

They have taken over the government with their Dems are soft on terror crap.

The GOP appointees are still in place.

Moderate voices were voted out by the terrorist scare memes.

Watch how fast it comes back when we close these programs.

2016. Dems, soft on terrror!

Look how they scream over Benghazi.

[cui bono]

242. Oh gawd.

Yeah, let's all play victim and not allow ourselves to ever put the responsibility on Obama and the Dems for anything that they've actually done.

[Cali_Democrat]

108. You seem angry

chill out.

deep breath.

[booley]

126. he is easier to dismiss

Snowden is human and therefore no more without fault then anyone else (especially when he can't respond to every attack against him)

So they concentrate on him rather then on what he showed.

[Progressive dog]

128. Count me in for nothing but contempt for Snowden

who has demonstrated no ethics, no honesty, and no integrity.
If this data on us is so terrible, why the hell is he a hero for stealing it and giving it to other countries. He's like the guy who robs the bank and claims he did it to show the security is lax.
Why should we not talk about Snowden when this entire discussion is based on repetition of claims that he made?
If a real discussion is desired, then don't start with the expectation that the claims of Snowden will be accepted as fact.

[In Truth We Trust]

132. Snowden is a hero. Your name is not reflective of a true progressive, dog

[Progressive dog]

137. Sure he is and he fled to Hong Kong

like all American heroes. We could start a collection for a monument somewhere. I wonder if they'd let us put it on the National Mall.

[frylock]

145. so if that's the criteria, then surely you look upon bradley manning as a hero?

[Progressive dog]

146. No I don't and surely you couldn't

have thought I did.

[frylock]

151. so then you have no point?

got it.

[Progressive dog]

159. Snowden is not a hero-get the point

I don't see how that can be misunderstood to make Manning a hero. Oh well

[Warren Stupidity]

162. so never mind the first argument you made, re fleeing to hong kong. OK. very persuasive.

[Progressive dog]

255. I do not expect to be able to persuade the Snowden

fan club. I have found that they appear unable to understand when they are being mocked.

[tavalon]

303. You seem to be unable to understand that Snowden isn't the story

I hope it shocks the hell out of you when you figure out the real story. If you do, I mean.

[Progressive dog]

306. Snowden's veracity is the story

It won't shock the hell out of me, I've been paying attention as the opinions from the Paulite and CT sites are repeatedly posted as if repetition makes fact.
I've been paying attention as the claims of support for Snowden's disclosures have been shot down by the supposed supporters just to show up again and again. I've watched as the posts began to move away from the Nazi references and the attempts to prove it's all Obamas fault toward the usual CT stuff that never goes away.
Surprise me with facts, but don't claim Snowden isn't the story. He isn't the whole story, but he's a big part of it.

[tavalon]

346. His story has now been corroborated,

therefore his part is over (heck, his life is over and he knows it). Now comes the work of wrenching our republic back from true fascism. I thought this was going to happen under Bush and this caught me over a barrel. Much backtracking to do but focusing on the messenger at this juncture is obfuscation.

[Progressive dog]

350. Sure it has, by nuts who think the USA is fascist

I'm much more afraid of people who can't think than of spying by spy agencies ( who knew?). 1.5million people with clearances, so far a handful of leakers have come forward, and almost all are old news.
The USA government is much less threatening than the states that are run by the government haters. The unelected scotus is the most frightening branch of the federal government. Any state that is controlled by the Republicans/Libertarian/ teabaggers is much more likely to take your civil rights than the national government.
Snowden ended his life as it was without any help. I'm sure there are lots of morons just waiting to send him money because he gave up his great career.

[frylock]

189. so why would you reference other "heroes" if that's the case?

[Progressive dog]

254. Sarcasm? Obvious?

[tavalon]

302. Did you ever see the video he gave to wikileaks?

He was clearly appalled and wanted the American citizens to know what was being done in their name.

[In Truth We Trust]

163. "White House is waging an unprecedented campaign to criminalize whistleblowing;"

"Snowden’s decision to flee the United States has often been depicted as an act of treason unto itself. The idea is that whereas Daniel Ellsberg was a hero for blowing the whistle and remaining in the United States, Snowden is a coward for blowing the whistle and fleeing. Left largely unmentioned is the big change between the time of Ellsberg’s disclosures and today: this White House is waging an unprecedented campaign to criminalize whistleblowing; it sometimes tortures whistleblowers; and it claims the right to extra-judicially assassinate American citizens who criticize the government but haven’t even been formally charged for a single crime. In light of this, why have most media outlets not bothered to even ask whether Snowden’s location outside the United States is, unto itself, a response to these troubling changes in U.S. government policy?"
from:http://www.alternet.org/10-questions-david-gregory?page=0%2C1

[Progressive dog]

172. Opinion pieces prove that people have opinions

The "facts" used to support this opinion are either other opinions or in dispute with the preponderance of evidence against the claims.
Fact: Snowden's stolen data will be given to foreign countries if they want it.
Fact: Some specific data about US spying has already been given to authoritarian governments.
Fact: The government has not threatened Snowden's life and are acting through the same judicial system that is used to prosecute other criminals.
Fact: Snowden fled the USA to avoid prosecution.
Fact: this is distorted and exagerrated bullshit. "and it claims the right to extra-judicially assassinate American citizens who criticize the government but haven’t even been formally charged for a single crime."

[bvar22]

312. Facts?

[font color=firebrick]"Fact: Snowden's stolen data will be given to foreign countries if they want it."[/font]
That is NOT a "Fact". That is speculation.


[font color=firebrick]"Fact: Some specific data about US spying has already been given to authoritarian governments."[/font]
Can you document this?
Without documentation, this is NOT a "FACT", but a guess.



[font color=firebrick]"Fact: The government has not threatened Snowden's life and are acting through the same judicial system that is used to prosecute other criminals."[/font]
The aggressive nature with which the US Government has gone after this guy,
the track record of the current administration on prosecution of Whistle Blowers,
and the persecution of Manning and Assange is evidence that if Snowden returns to the US,
he will be given Special treatment.
I will concede that the US Government has not directly threatened his life.



[font color=firebrick]"Fact: this is distorted and exagerrated (sic) bullshit. "and it claims the right to extra-judicially assassinate American citizens who criticize the government but haven’t even been formally charged for a single crime." "[/font]
Not FACT.
There is proof to the contrary.
Our Unitary Executive has claimed that power,
and the NDAA has made it ALL legal.
You may trust Obama not to USE the power in that way,
but can you say the same about President Palin?
Many Government Officials, especially, but not exclusively Republicans, are flirting around the edges of designating Protesters as insurgents,
and some are calling protesters blocking the Excel Pipeline as "Terrorists".
That is ALL this or the next Unitary Executive needs to Take Them Out.

In a post where you claim to have the "FACTS",
it is a good idea to post FACTS.

No Charge (this time).

[Progressive dog]

323. You don't get your own facts

Fact: stolen data available to countries that want it per Snowden himself
Fact: making data pertaining to authoritarian governments public is fact
Fact: the government has not threatened Snowden's life and has done nothing that would not have been done to any other notorious fugitive from justice

Doubling down on nonsense doesn't make it true. You can repeat it endlessly, but when you make outrageous claims, you should be able to substantiate them.

[bvar22]

329. You will have to post some links supporting your "facts".

As per CNN latest update. June 25th,

"Snowden has acknowledged that he leaked classified documents about the NSA's surveillance programs [font size=3]to the Guardian newspaper in Britain and to The Washington Post.[/font]"

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/25/politics/nsa-leak/index.html

"Earlier, the Washington Post reported that U.S. prosecutors have filed a sealed criminal complaint charging Snowden with espionage, theft and conversion of government property. The Post also reported that the United States has asked Hong Kong to detain Snowden on a provisional arrest warrant."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-usa-security-snowden-charges-idUSBRE95K18220130621

There have been no charges filed against Snowden for Passing classified information to foreign governments, and Snowden denies this accusation.

Edward J. Snowden, the former National Security Agency contractor who has confessed to disclosing troves of highly classified documents detailing American surveillance at home and abroad, said Monday that he had not given any classified materials to the government of China.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/18/world/asia/nsa-leaker-denies-giving-classified-data-to-china.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Please produce a credible source that claims Snowden has passed classified data to any governments, "authoritarian" or otherwise.
Sorry, but posts to unsupported claims on DU, like your "FACTS", are NOT credible sources.

[Progressive dog]

331. Make it easy for you

[link:http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023093595#post3|

[bvar22]

332. Can you read?

"
Edward Snowden has told Hong Kong publication Sunday Morning Post the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) has been hacking Chinese mobile companies to steal text messages and attacking the servers at Tsinghua University."

---from the link YOU supplied

The Hong Kong Sunday Morning Post is not exactly a "Foreign Government".
The ONLY thing that can be inferred from Snowden's disclosure is a 3rd hand broad disclusure that, in addition to Domestic Telecoms, the US has also been spying on Foreign Digital Communications.
This in NO way can be interpreted as passing Classified Information to Foreign Governments.

Do you, or anyone in their right mind care to claim that China didn't already know this?
Like your gang was fond of saying last week, "That is OLD news,"
except in THIS case, the statement is TRUE.

Since that link did NOT support YOUR claims,
I challenge YOU to post a link to a source that DOES,
or consider yourself [font size=3]DEBUNKED.[/font]

[Progressive dog]

333. The point is releasing secrets to a foreign authoritarian government

You made an argument that releasing them so they become public knowledge is not releasing them to a foreign government. lol You don't know what secret means and you accuse me of not knowing how to read.

Then, when you realize that your argument is crap, you try to regroup with this
"Do you, or anyone in their right mind care to claim that China didn't already know this? "
There is a big difference between general knowledge and specific knowledge. He added to China's knowledge in unknown ways.

He gave secret information to foreign governments. There is no way to undo it or lie about it.

I did link to a source that does, and you know it.

[bvar22]

335. Again, you post NOTHING to support your claims.

All you do is stamp your foot.
You were challenged to produce corroboration and support for what YOU claim were FACTS.
You FAILED to do so.

You claim to have FACTS.
Facts are EXTERNAL.
They exist outside YOU and YOUR opinion.
"Facts" are EASY to support with outside verification.
If you actually had "Facts", you could provide links to credible sources supporting your claim.
I easily supported MY facts with credible outside sources.
This USED to be SOP at DU, before....

You have absolutely FAILED to accomplish that simple task.
The conclusion is clear.
You have NO "Facts",
and no credible sources beyond your friends on DU to support the Rumors, Suppositions, and Wishful Thinking you claim are "FACTS".


Bookmarking,
so that I have a link to THIS debunking when you show up in the next thread claiming to "Have the Facts".

Cheers!
---bvar22



You will know them by their [font size=3]WORKS.[/font]

[Progressive dog]

341. That is funny

When you learn to read whole sentences, I'll read your stuff.

[In Truth We Trust]

357. kudo's bvar! Slam dunk on the "facts". You will indeed know them by their works.

[bvar22]

358. Thank You.

When someone "claims" to have the "facts"
but can produce NOTHING to support their "facts",
that usually means that they just made that shit up,
as is clearly the case in this instance.

That shit flies at places like FreeRepublic and the Beavis & Butthead Chatroom at AOL,
but not at DU.

That guy's mother should have left the training wheels on a little longer before letting him try to ride with the Big Kids.
He Fall Down Go Boom.

[treestar]

183. Yes the real issue or outrage is that such a person got access

Our country keeps this data and having it from terrorists, not from the country itself. We know we don't see it but we decide who to entrust it to so that foreign terrorists/spies/etc. don't know about it. They act here like it's a lack of transparency not to let it all out!

[tavalon]

304. See Benjamin Franklin

And then access your inner rage. If you aren't enraged, you haven't been paying attention to the right thing.

[treestar]

313. Has nothing to do with it.

Franklin did not mean all troop movements had to be published for the citizens and the British to read. He wasn't an idiot.

[tavalon]

344. Obtuse much?

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin

[treestar]

352. Essential liberty?

What is essential? That would be the question. And he would not have approved of all spies work being published for the British to read.

[Galraedia]

277. +1000000

I wish more DUers would stop jumping on the Snowden bandwagon. He has made false statements and exaggerated claims. At first I thought he was paranoid but honestly concerned, but over time he has shown that he's nothing but a manipulative prick. There was no reason for him to steal information and then turn over documents to the South China Morning Post revealing that the United States has been hacking into Chinese computers or for him to leak documents showing that in 2009 the United States intercepted communications from then-Russian President Dmitry Medvedev if his concern is over the privacy of U.S. citizens.

[Javaman]

133. Sush, you! don't you know it's the national sport to attack the messenger??!!

instead of actually having an adult conversation regarding the actual issue?

Shame on you Cali, you should know better.

[olegramps]

135. I held a Top Secret Security Clearance.

I swore that I would not divulge any classified information. Even though that was many years ago, I still feel that I have absolutely no right to divulge any thing that I knew. Say what you may concerning the nature of the information that he released, to me it doesn't justify his disclosures.

I find it ironic that Democrats believed that Cheney should have been tried and convicted for exposing the identity of a secret agent, Plame, yet are will to excuse the same type of activity by someone who had swore never to divulge classified information. I also can't help from wondering just what the reaction would be if we were attack by terrorists only to discover that a program of this nature could have prevented it. Many have concluded that the lack of commitment by the Bush administration to listen to those such a Clarke who warned about the threat of a terrorist attack led to the 9/11 disaster. It saddens me that it is a sad state of affairs that we have to live with threats by fanatics. If I were in the position of being responsible for the protection of the citizens, I believe that I would error on the side of being overly cautious.

The over site of these agencies is the responsibility of Congress. Unfortunately, the members most consuming activity is getting reelected so they can suck on the big tit until they have enough influence to resign to take a multi-million dollar position as a lobbyist.

[Shadestorm]

138. Cheney/Snowden

Dear Gramps,
Cheney exposed Valerie Plame to punish her husband and to gain political power. To compare a war criminal to a leaker is unsound thinking.

[In_The_Wind]

256. Hello ~ Shadestorm

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[sibelian]

140. That's a well-observed, consistent position, thank you.

Some here feel that Snowden's revelations are of a different sort than Cheney's as Cheney's are thought of as vindictive and malicious in intent and had no value to the country, whereas Snowden's actions will hopefully bring about positive change. Of course, its not simple to argue such positions so peopel tend to the point that will close the argument: "he should go to jail because of...". You are right that there would appear to be an inconscistency in the willingness to apply the law equally to Cheney and Snowden.

Given my ignorance of the information you safeguarded, I am probably in no position to discuss your opinions of Snowden's oath and his breaking of it with you, but I hope that his actions prove fruitful enough to provide a system that circumvents the possibility of such information as the NSA appears routinely to gather being used against the citizens of the US for purely political or oppressive reasons, which I do not believe is outwith the scope of possibility at all, particularly in the light of the Bush administration. Discussions of the actual threats that the NSA's current leader contends were thwarted by his information monitoring network seem to show that the network itself was of little value without other means of identifying the potential source of the threat.

I think it unlikely that you and I will ever agree, but thank you for your careful, considered response to this thread.

[olegramps]

204. I would have greater respect for Snowden if he wasn't on the run.

Last edited Tue Jun 25, 2013, 08:51 AM - Edit history (1)

I had great respect for those such as Ali and those who were willing to go to jail for opposing something that they thought was morally wrong. I can't help from thinking that Snowden's credibility is being compromised by turning to countries that absolutely no respect for human rights, freedom of the press and have extensive histories of atrocious treatment of anyone who dared to speak out against the government. As in regard to Cheney, he revealed information that could, and according to some, lead to the exposure of secret agents. He thought that he was doing a patriotic thing in stopping any criticism of the war in Iraq by destroying the credibility of Plame's husband.

Just because I believe that Snowden was wrong in the manner in which he addressed this issue doesn't necessarily mean that I am not very concerned with the abuse of government power. This is why were have intelligence committees that are charged with fully exploring and guaranteeing that our freedoms are not compromised. What we have is a dysfunctional government that is unable to pass any meaningful legislation.

[KauaiK]

136. Snowden & Manning are charged with crimes but not Cheney for outing Plame?

I am more fearful of US Gov't than terrorists.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

141. How about all the Constitutional rights and ideals of this country

are turning into lies.

[Enthusiast]

142. If it was only the Snowden revelations.

It's the Snowden revelations plus EVERYTHING ELSE. Like the TPP that no sane working class American citizen wants but will have to accept because we now have corporate rule. Like KLX that we don't want but must accept. Like MASSIVE, UNJUSTIFIED military spending that the American people do not want. It's the Wall Street fraudsters that are going entirely unpunished. I could go on and on.

[cali]

148. absolutely.

[BlueNAlabama]

166. The Man Told The Truth

As college students in the late 60's & 70's we cheered Daniel Ellsberg's act of courage and conviction. Snowden deserves nothing less. If the truth hurts, tough.

[Aerows]

168. And people want to burn him at the stake for it

Which doesn't make sense to me.

ETA: Unless it's an uncomfortable as hell truth he's telling.

[mshasta]

171. I haven't read any of he's proof anywere

he RUN....he didn't face the USA government...
I still waiting to read about any documents of proof that he has...by the way China and Russia already have.

[Aerows]

173. That didn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

That didn't get through to me due to the fact that I speak English on a daily basis, and in the other languages I speak it made no sense either.

[Egalitarian Thug]

170. The endless pursuit of distraction and poo-flinging by the Home Team is just

parody of a caricature at his point.

"What elephant?"

[Aerows]

194. I tell it like the cow ate the cabbage

which is the unvarnished truth, but has it's roots in an old Southern joke about calling the police about a cow eating all the cabbage by an near sighted person "His tail, it's grabbing it all up, And you wouldn't believe where the cow is putting the cabbage!"

It was an Elephant in the garden.

[Egalitarian Thug]

212. LOL! That's a funny version I've never heard before, thanks. n/t

[Aerows]

214. It's indeed funny

and I'm glad you found it so! It's a legend in Southern Mississippi.

[intaglio]

175. In the order you wrote them

What's new? Nothing, Snowden revealed precisely nothing about US data gathering around US citizens that is new.

What's new? Nothing, because the amount of data is also growing exponentially.

What's new? Nothing, check on what IBM or Rand Corporation or Standard Oil used to do and, guess what? They were thought patriotic.

What's new? It has been like this ever since FISA was brought in. If it's that bad get the Republicans in Congress to vote to tighten it up. Good luck with that.

FFS!

the extreme secretiveness of this nation's national security agencies

Name just 1 country where security agencies are open about any part of what you want the US security groups to open up about. Name 1 country where there is more oversight of espionage. Being secretive is part of what they do.

What's new? Nothing, officials do not want to risk revealing information in public that might aid or assist the countries enemies. Name one country that is more transparent that the USA.

Whats new? Nothing, any security measure that a nation uses can be abused. I believe the Juvenal had a phrase, "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" and it refers to exactly the same problem.

What's new? Nothing, it is a repeat of other points and it is covered by my other responses.

With this you plumb a depth of ignorance I thought reserved for the no nothings on other message boards. National Security Letters are not "Orwellian": the bureaucrats of Oceania were not required to issue such documents because everything including the actual content of communications were already monitored and recorded. If they are, as you believe, unconstitutional then get the Supreme Court to rule; but as there is currently no injunction preventing the issue of these documents and as they do provide a "paper trail" as well as allowing some minor limits on the activities in question they might be a good idea.

FFS the M$M has put all these matters front and centre, Snowden and his babbling and treason were just a convenient excuse.

[mattclearing]

182. Identity politics > Issues n/t

[phleshdef]

184. Orwell would've really hated the way people use the term "Orwellian"....

Just saying...

[Uncle Joe]

190. It rolls off the tongue easier than 1984ian, also kicking and recommending the thread.

Thanks for the thread, cali.

[NutmegYankee]

188. Time to finally repeal the Patriot act. Nt

[cantbeserious]

202. + Infinity - Defending The 4th Amendment From Assault Is No Laughing Matter

eom

[DeSwiss]

203. Sorry, but as with sycophants.....

...the Unawakened don't roll that way.

- It requires courage, principles and above all: THOUGHT.

K&R

''...the literature of the Party will change. Even the slogans will change. How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished? The whole climate of thought will be different. In fact there will be no thought, as we understand it now. Orthodoxy means not thinking -- not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.''

~George Orwell, 1984

[kardonb]

207. how about

calming down and considering national security , for a change ! You are playing right into the hands of our enemies , here and abroad, with your hysterical reaction .

[Joey Liberal]

208. I do not despise Snowden

We needed to know what our government was doing to us with our own tax dollars.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

209. Examining the Espionage Act and the reason it came to be

This needs to be broadened to a topic far greater than Snowden. As long as he is at the center of debate, nothing will happen to remedy the need for and cost of the Act.

From Wikipedia: Espionage Act of 1917

Signed into law by President Woodrow Wilson on June 15, 1917

The Espionage Act of 1917 (Pub.L. 65–24, 40 Stat. 217, enacted June 15, 1917) is a United States law passed on June 15, 1917, shortly after the U.S. entry into World War I. It has been amended numerous times over the years. It was originally found in Title 50 of the U.S. Code (War) but is now found under Title 18, Crime. Specifically it is 18 U.S.C. §792 et seq.[1]

It originally prohibited any attempt to interfere with military operations, to support U.S. enemies during wartime, to promote insubordination in the military, or to interfere with military recruitment. In 1919, the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously ruled in Schenck v. United States that the act did not violate the freedom of speech of those convicted under its provisions. The constitutionality of the law, its relationship to free speech, and the meaning of the law's language have been contested in court ever since. Among those who have been charged with offenses under the Act are German-American socialist congressman and newspaper editor Victor Berger, former Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society president Joseph Franklin Rutherford, communists Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, Pentagon Papers whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg, alleged Cablegate whistleblower Bradley Manning, and NSA leaker Edward Snowden. Rutherford's conviction was overturned on appeal.[2] The most controversial sections of the Act, including the original section 3, under which Rutherford was convicted, were repealed in 1921.[3]

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/wilsonwar.htm

At 8:30 on the evening of April 2, 1917, President Wilson appeared before a joint session of Congress and asked for a declaration of war against Germany in order to "make the world safe for democracy." On April 4, Congress granted Wilson's request.

America thus joined the carnage that had been ravaging Europe since 1914. Germany's renewal of unrestricted submarine warfare and the revelation of a proposed German plot to ally with Mexico against the US prompted Wilson's action.

http://www.kpfk.org/programs/188-letters-and-politics.html

This morning after Democracy Now, was a program discussing the creation of the Espionage Act. The guest talked of the number of Socialists there were in the nation - and in public office - along with your average pacifist. They were numerous and endangered the vote for the declaration of war against Germany in 1917.

I wish I got the name of the guest, but it may show on the link above in "letters and politics"

[cstanleytech]

217. Its not an issue of the NSA revelation because its not a revelation as the news

that the feds were trying to gather all sorts of data dates back to 1997 with Carnivore.
No, the reason why some people consider his actions treason is that he is also leaking information over government efforts at spying on other countries.
Its a crime cali, just like it was a crime when Bush was bypassing the FISA courts because he thought he had the authority to do so.

[YOHABLO]

218. Well all that privatized intelligence gathering sure put a damper on 9/11 ..worked well!

[indianjoe3295]

222. YES,...

I would say he's equally important. Particularly after reading articles like this,...

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1268209/snowden-sought-booz-allen-job-gather-evidence-nsa-surveillance


If any of this is true,...he has damaged the security of this country beyond imagination.

[marble falls]

224. The Snowden circus is not the real issue. Privacy concerns are.

[George II]

229. If our government is so bad.........

........why not join him in Moscow, Quito, Caracas, or in whatever city he finally decides to cowardly hide?

[premium]

232. Why not stay here and try to fix the problems

that Mr. Snowden has brought to light.
Don't tell me you're one of those love it or leave it types?

[bobduca]

235. Its a big tent

held up by birch poles?

[George II]

258. No I'm not one of those, but it just seems.......

......that to the original poster there are so many (vague!) things wrong that there is no possible solution other than just leaving for him/her.

Lots of different things "wrong", but few of them are substantive, just either speculation or presumptive.

Funny how there have been few or no discussions about the actual material that Snowden leaked, just the blanket "oooh, the government is bad, yadda yadda yadda"!

Where I come from, I was taught that if you want to complain about something, at least accompany that with a sensible alternative. Unfortunately all we get here are the complaints, never any sensible solutions.

[cali]

282. I answered that. how come you won't respond to my post?

And you won't respond to my not vague in the slightest bit list of concerns about the encroaching national security state. btw, all three of my reps in Congress have expressed great concern over many of the items on my list. Gonna ask Senators Leahy and Sanders and Rep Welch why they don't just leave the U.S.?

Your accusation of vagueness is false. I was specific.

And as far as a sensible solution? I support Senator Leahy's proposed legislation. It's a start.

YOU are the one being vague and well, ridiculous, with your dog shit love it or leave it.

[cali]

253. Love it or leave it? I'll give you a serious answer

lots of them.

My family is here.

I live in Vermont which I love and which is a very liberal state.

I couldn't afford to.

[RetroLounge]

337. User name is a british king and avatar is a canadian flag?

Pardon me if I don't take anything you say seriously about "our" government'



RL

[George II]

340. I'm a native born American.............

I was born in Brooklyn NY and have lived in the US my entire life, more than 60 years. I'm also, due to Canadian law, a citizen of Canada since one of my parents was Canadian. I also served in the United States Navy and am a public servant in my community.

So, why don't you simply go fuck yourself with your condescending and judgemental attitude!

[RetroLounge]

351. Feel better now?

RL

[George II]

354. Never felt better in my life, even before I posted it, pinhead.

[RetroLounge]

355. Pinhead?

Hmmm, Bill O'Reilly uses that a term lot.

Feel better now?



RL

[George II]

356. He probably learned it from me when I was calling him that!!!! Still feeling great!

[DallasNE]

234. It Is Not Either Or So Do Both

Snowden did us a service by putting the spotlight on the huge excesses of the Patriot Act, although much of this was already known.

But Snowden is also beginning to look like a mole planted at Booz-Allen, possibly by China and/or Russia and that makes him a foreign spy. He was only at Booz-Allen for 3 months so planning for this had to begin from his date of hire. You may not think it is a big deal that China and Russia have this data but I think it is a very big deal.

So you do both. You continue to work for major change in the snooping operation and you prosecute Snowden for espionage as that is what this case has turned out to be. Just hope that this doesn't re-ignite another cold war that lasts for 50 years or more. That is how serious this is.

[cali]

248. Fair enough.

My point was that many people are focusing solely on Snowden and ignoring the issues or defending the massive surveillance. You don't seem to be doing that.

I disagree about this igniting another cold war, and no, I don't think that Russia and China having this information is going to do that.

[iamthebandfanman]

249. I agree people are missing the big picture..

and totally agree with all you said and do think people are fixated a lil too much with the person and not the actual 'revelations' ...

with that being said tho..
if they can prove he gave information to foreign governments..
he did commit treason..

he should have stayed where he was at and stuck to his whistleblower status..
by running hes opened himself up to all sorts of accusations

I most certainly don't hate or despise the man tho.. why would anyone feel that way ?
he was brave to speak out.
I just don't think hes handled it very well and didn't think out what he was doing.

[dotymed]

257. I was discussing this

with some of my lowbrow friends at the pub yesterday.
They too, whom I often differ in opinion with, thought that the facts that he brought forth, and made Americans aware of, were
the only reason he is a fugitive.
Most of them have no time for politics and they only know what the MSM tells them. I was happily surprised that most of them (even the retired military guys) thought that Snowden's message was much more important than any perceived laws he broke.
The consensus was that he is only "a fugitive" because he shed light on the spy apparatus that is America's government.

They were a group of pissed off, uneducated, low earning, good ol' boys..

[tavalon]

261. Thank you, thank you, thank you

I can't quite remember right now the times we've disagreed. This certainly isn't one of them.

[Logical]

339. Great post! n-t

[tavalon]

348. And again, I spent my 45 minutes home from work, before bed

on your thread. I hate putting people on ignore, but the game is getting silly.