Do you think Snowden may be naive about how the government works? Putting together...

[Hekate]

... some of the pieces we know about him, what we have is this:

high school GED
highly intelligent
high-achieving but narrowly focused
self taught (and/or learned on the job)
seems to have a cyber-based/internet-based ethos, rather than a recognizable political ideology

What he has missed in his education, quite likely, is the classroom work we used to call Civics, as well as history of any kind. What he has missed is real-life experience outside of the logic of his head and his chosen work.

Greenwald, as we know, has an agenda of his own. I don't know how those two hooked up, but Greenwald may have filled a gap in Snowden's thinking and provided him with a focus for his anger. Or maybe Snowden's thoughts had already clicked into place, and Greenwald just presented him with an ideology that sounded like it fit.

I'm just trying to work out why it is that Snowden seems to be all over the place, and not just geographically.

Hekate

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. For somebody who missed civics

He knows the Fourth Amendment.

So how about do we talk of NSA abuses and the USPA?

Is it ok to spy on your own citizens? What say you?

[Hekate]

3. I say a person may be furious at what his government is doing and go about it a different way

I say that if he is surprised at how this is playing out, he is lacking real life experience.

I, for one, would never take a government job and be sworn to secrecy with the intent of stealing and disseminating all the info I could get my paws on unless I were ready to spend the rest of my life in prison or worse. The glow of righteousness might not be sufficient to see me through, otherwise.

If I were determined that this were the only course of action, I would most certainly plan for my exit more thoroughly than he seems to have.

Nadin, we know each other of old. Please don't use that "What say you?" on me.

No one realizes more than I that our intelligence-gathering agencies have gotten out of hand, and I believe that the citizenry should be using every available means to make our elected officials rein them in, including measures to stop outsourcing/privatizing what is an essential government function.

In my opinion, some intel gathering is an absolute necessity for national security, and I am sure that Richard "Hair on Fire" Clarke would back me up on that. The FBI and local police need some of that as well, for crime-fighting efforts.

But it needs to be completely reined in and controlled. More and more I wonder if the agencies are semi-autonomous, and that is just wrong in a democracy. Tell me how to get this done, and I will nominate you for the Nobel in something.

Snowden started out by claiming he wanted to expose government spying on citizens at home, a fairly noble goal, but he rather quickly dropped that in favor of damaging our foreign affairs and diplomatic efforts, boom boom boom. WTF is that about?

No one with an ounce of sense is going to tell you that we should be taking either China's or Russia's statements on anything at face value. Somebody here actually referred to them as our "allies" and I practically spit my coffee on my screen. Trading partners, yes, and we know how well that works with China. We need to know what is going on in those two countries, and if we fail to do that we are fools.

So is Snowden blissfully naive or maliciously traitorous? I certainly do not know the answer to that yet, which is why I did not join either bandwagon at the outset of this drama.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. I highly recommend you find out what happened to the other

Six recent whistleblowers, not to mention private manning.

I guess that is the new American way.

He's managed to do what the others failed...if nothing else that is impressive.

Regardless, I see him purely as a footnote...perhaps he will get a paragraph in a history book. Now can we talk of the USPA and are you ok with spying? That is what is at the heart of this. Though it has also revealed more than anything a declining impotent empire. So shall we talk about that? In particular what freedoms are you willing to give to feel safe?

Personally having all my interior calls, I find beyond disgusting and Dept of Pre Crime.

Now you may not, and that's ok.

So how about we talk about that?

[pnwmom]

8. I had the same reaction to hearing that we shouldn't spy on China because it was an ally.

How can anyone be so naive?

Is Snowden that naive? Maybe . . . when I read that he was chagrined to find out that prison would mean being separated from his beloved computer, that he didn't care if he was locked up in a small room as long as he had a computer, I had to wonder about the guy.

Meanwhile, the lesson I think we've all learned is that in a free society, neither our prisons nor our intelligence service should be privatized. Neither of these should be looked on as profit-making enterprises.

[Harmony Blue]

2. Let me address your post

The reason why I consider Snowden a hero is because he actually understands the history of the United States and what it used to stand for. You should be ashamed for insinuating he didn't take a civics class.

Maybe you slept through it, but let me fill in the gaps for you:

Ever hear of the constitution?
Whistleblowers called traitors later to be proven justified?
Democracy requiring transparency
Democracy forming because the oligarchs lost control and the population no longer feared losing anything
The American colonies revolting and called traitors for cooperating with France
etc, etc, etc

[Hekate]

5. I've read the Constitution

Not ashamed at all, thank you.

I have waited for facts -- and am still waiting -- in order to draw conclusions about Snowden. I have not jumped on either one of the DU bandwagons at this point, and am unlikely to in the future.

At this point I'm trying to figure out motive and inner narrative.

[Harmony Blue]

7. You explicitly stated that Snowden

is over his head and implied he didn't take a civics class. You clearly revealed where your opinion is heading, so save the kabuki theater for those that will buy it.

[Hekate]

13. He doesn't seem to know how the government works, nor how foreign affairs work

He doesn't seem to understand that China and Russia are not our friends, and will only be his as long as it suits them and not a nanosecond longer.

I am beginning to worry about the boy. Save your bitterness.

[Harmony Blue]

22. Apparently Kerry and Schumer

believe China and Russia are our allies and friends. I guess they are naive about foreign affairs too.

Snowden isn't a boy as he is 30 years old and a brave one too that understands American history.

[Progressive dog]

49. You might want to edit Wikipedia

And add your list of whistle-blowers to it so you can make this true.
"Maybe you slept through it, but let me fill in the gaps for you:
Whistleblowers called traitors later to be proven justified? "
I'll bet you took the same Civics Class as Snowden.

This didn't happen in the USA. You and your "hero" might want to retake your class in "Civics".
"Democracy forming because the oligarchs lost control and the population no longer feared losing anything "

This tops Palin's claim about the American Founders ending slavery.
"The American colonies revolting and called traitors for cooperating with France"

[okaawhatever]

6. I think Snowden did have some personal issues. I don't think it's the lack of a civics

class, but maybe not having the interaction of kids his own age during a crucial time. He dropped out his sophomore year and began living soon after in a condo his mother had purchased. It seems he was there by himself for a while. I'm not sure of the exact timing, but when his parents divorced, his father moved for his job and his mother stayed in Maryland. It seems the mother lived in the former marital home (perhaps waiting for it to sell?). What I've been able to put together is that during that time the mother bought and owed the condo but didn't stay there with Edward until later. He spent a lot of time online and probably leaned a lot about computers during that time as well. I know from his own statement and others that his failure to graduate high school weighed heavily on him. I'm sure it was difficult with his parents divorcing as well. Maybe his mother was going through a really tough time and was unavailable to help and/or parent him. Don't know that for sure, but I do know he made some posts about the school system that were incredibly negative. I've tried to find the story I read the quote in, but can't. He was obvious in the post that he blamed the school system a great deal so i'd like to know what caused him to drop out. Don't know, but it's important to understand where he's coming from mentally.

[Harmony Blue]

9. You are wrong and let me explain why:

"but maybe not having the interaction of kids his own age during a crucial time."

Snowden showed great empathy by coming out to the public with this information. Nice swing and a miss.

[pnwmom]

16. Actually, I think he's shown a lack of empathy in a number of ways.

He seemed to have little ability to anticipate public reaction to what he's done. He's said how surprised he's been by all the attention. What did he expect?

And he flew off to Russia, apparently having little idea that they might be seriously interested in interrogating him.

[okaawhatever]

20. Empathy .Clearly not his strong suit. Maturity and honesty even less so.

em·pa·thy (m p-th) n. 1. Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives.

[Harmony Blue]

23. That is why he came out with the information

for the public. That is the hallmark of empathy.

[Blue_Roses]

46. Depends on how you define "empathy"..

While his initial "info drop" may have appeared to be in the best interest of the people, he has since showed how naive and desperate he really is.

By sharing ANY document with other countries--especially, those who do not have the US's best interest at heart--is not only extremely naive, but very dangerous.

Snowden continues to snub his nose at the US, therefore, putting me and the rest of us who live in the US in a very unstable place with these countries. He has done NOTHING to help diplomatic relations with these countries. In fact, he has only hurt us.

How does that show empathy and caring to your nation when you continue to stir the angry pot?

[pnwmom]

11. Based on what you're read, do you think there's a possibility he's somewhere

on the autism spectrum? That could explain his combination of black and white thinking and an apparent lack of worldliness.

[okaawhatever]

26. That I can't answer. I thought initially his high school failure and then lack of follow

through with higher education was perhaps due to high intelligence. A function of boredom with course material perhaps. After I read his statements about the school system I became convinced it was something else. I don't know what though.

[pnwmom]

32. Of course, high intelligence isn't inconsistent

with a diagnosis of autism -- the combination is actually pretty common among computer people.

[BeyondGeography]

53. Young men with no meaningful human attachments

are more likely to do destructive things. Doesn't mean he was out to destroy the world, just that there was no one in the way. No one who cared about him as a person to talk him through a life-altering decision.

So when I saw he was a 29-year-old loner I had trust-in-judgment issues. One of his first reported quotes was something along the lines of, "Is this the kind of world we want to live in?" A worthy question always, but best asked by someone who has actually has some depth of human experience.

[randome]

54. Wow. Very astute.

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[JI7]

10. did anyone see the interview Lawrence Odonnell did with Snowden's friend ?

she sounded REALLY REALLY stupid. i think snowden is probably on the same level.

but all of this points to problems with hiring in govt , especially areas related to security and how outsourcing is a huge problem.

[pnwmom]

12. When I heard him speak he sounded very articulate, not stupid.

But he might have a narrowly focused intelligence, and maybe he'd rehearsed what he said in his interviews.

[treestar]

28. A libertarian thing

very intelligent about computers, so thinks that means he must know more about everything else than others do.

[JI7]

33. it's not just the speaking style , but more about them just not getting it

kind of being out of it. in over their heads i guess. there are people who are not articulate but they are still able to show they understand the situation . in this case she seemed to not really be there.

i do think snowden was rehearsed in that video though.

[pnwmom]

40. Did they say what kind of friend she was? Work friend? School friend? n't

[JI7]

43. i think they knew each other from work

[Harmony Blue]

14. So now Snowden's intelligence

hinges on the intelligence of his friends and family?

Shall we examine your family tree and friends to determine your intelligence? You object..I wonder why?

[Tarheel_Dem]

31. That was excruciatingly painful to watch. I felt sorry for her. Either she wasn't....

prepared for LO's questions, or she isn't very bright, and that could explain the association.

[Tarheel_Dem]

15. All I needed to know is that he's a Paultard, which are Republicans with loose screws.

Which might explain why he left this tyrannical, super secret surveillance state for that bastion of liberal open government called CHINA!

[pnwmom]

17. And now Russia! And then Ecuador, home of an (un)free press.

[Tarheel_Dem]

18. A world tour? I think I'd get a new travel agent.

[pnwmom]

21. Yeah, he's got a really bad one.

[Cha]

35. LOl.. and then off to Russia when China got tired of his leaker ass..

It really all goes back to that batshit libertarian thing doesn' it? racist homophobes..

I see where Leaker S wants to end up in Ecuador.. perfect.

Ecuador: Pres. Correa says he won't allow marriage or adoption rights for gays and will veto any gender identity laws

•He denied his government was pushing for marriage equality and highlighted the constitutional ban he once called unnecessary saying that no other type of partnership could ever be considered a marriage except for that between a man and a woman.

•He acknowledged there were current efforts in the national assembly to pass a gender identity law but mocked the legislator introducing the bill and promised to veto the bill if it ever reached his desk.

The shock and disappointment among leading Ecuadorian LGBT rights advocates was palpable on the social networks and many took to Twitter to demand an explanation from Correa on the eve of his inauguration."

http://blabbeando.blogspot.com/2013/05/ecuador-no-to-marriage-equality-no-to.html?spref=tw …

[Tarheel_Dem]

42. But...but...but...Julian Assange says Correa's a GOD. He's a big ol' "leftist" ya know.

Reports on NPR today, speculate that Correa would love to be the new Chavez. However, there's a trade agreement renewal coming up in July, and it's a boon for Ecuador. If Snowden does eventually find his way to Ecuador, I think we may not find out about it until after the trade talks.

[Cha]

47. Interesting, thank you, Tarheel.

Shows what Assange knows. Libertarians want their rights but everyone else's can go to hell.

Leaker without a country.

[Major Nikon]

19. How intelligent can one be to hand deliver his hacked materials to the Chinese government?

I hope he actually was on the Chinese payroll. Otherwise he is clearly into crème-de-la-dumb territory.

[Harmony Blue]

25. Where is your proof that he has done this?

Oh yeah you don't have it.

[Major Nikon]

27. Are you trying to claim he didn't travel to China with his hacked materials?

Because if you actually believe the Chinese would allow him to leave China without copying his material, you may be as naive as Snowden.

[Hekate]

45. There r corporations that routinely give their employees new, clean computers when they visit China

... on business. They are required to leave their personal and work computers at home. And why is this, you may ask? Because the Chinese have become very, very good at siphoning up data off hard drives without so much as a by-your-leave.

Schloop.

[baldguy]

51. Which means we can assume that every intel service in any country Snowden vists

Has all the information he's carrying.

But giving China, Russia and Cuba all our secrets is A-OK!

[pscot]

30. I seriously doubt Snowden could tell the Chinese

anything about us they don't already know. Plus, we're their meal ticket. China tossed Snowden like a hot potato. I think the Russian visit is a mistake. He's said to be carrying 4 laptops full of data. The Russians are old fashioned. Putin may not be able to pass up an opportunity like this. That would change the trajectory.

[Major Nikon]

37. Evidently Snowden didn't think so

He claims to be screening everything prior to releasing it.

"I carefully evaluated every single document I disclosed to ensure that each was legitimately in the public interest," he said. "There are all sorts of documents that would have made a big impact that I didn't turn over, because harming people isn't my goal. Transparency is."

In his interview with the Post, Snowden divulged information that he claimed showed hacking by the NSA into computers in Hong Kong and mainland China.

"I did not release them earlier because I don't want to simply dump huge amounts of documents without regard to their content," he said. "I have to screen everything before releasing it to journalists."

[pscot]

41. Do you believe he showed the Chinese

any thing they don't already know? They're building F35 clones. They know whatever Silicon Valley knows They've been dealing with barbarians for 3000 years. We're just a new flavor. Snowden was a hot potato. They dumped him.

[Major Nikon]

44. I have no idea what he showed the Chinese

And neither do you. I do know he believed he had, or likely had compromising information that could put lives at risk. Either that or he was and still is blowing smoke up everyone's ass.

What I believe is that there's no way China would have ever allowed him to leave without a copy of everything he had. The same goes for Russia.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. Far from it. He seems to be fully aware of how government works and is exposing it.

[marions ghost]

29. and people just can't stand that

so they have to tear him down, based on nothing. A "narrowly focused intelligence" as opposed to what? Leonardo da Vinci? There are some really weird theories flying around here....

[struggle4progress]

34. His Hong Kong lawyer has been giving interviews: he says the kid

hadn't realized he'd be imprisoned in Hong Kong while his extradition lawsuit played out and became upset when he was told his laptops would all be taken away from him during that time

[flamingdem]

38. That is wonderfully funny

in a nerd cliche kinda way!

[Cha]

39. Oh gaaaawd! More little thing... I hope he wasn't too

uncomforable.

Sounds like that "laptop" was his ticket to Russia.

[Tarheel_Dem]

48. And Pepsi. Don't forget Pepsi.

[flamingdem]

36. Good points. He can't be sophisticated about international politics

becausethat takes some time and study and it's not his bag.

[randome]

50. Aren't you assuming that he's highly intelligent? Why would anyone think that?

He apparently didn't understand what a secure FTP server is. He may have even started in the intelligence business because his parents had connections there, although that's only a guess.

I think Snowden is simply great at bamboozling people. He's been doing that his entire life is my guess.

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[font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font]
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[Progressive dog]

52. I think Snowden is ignorant about what government is

[KharmaTrain]

55. Does Anyone Really Know Where Snowden Is Right Now...

...that Snowden hasn't been taken into custody by the Russians. His value as "trade bait" for several Russian nationals they'd like to see extradited from the U.S. Since he's arrived, there hasn't been a picture nor other first-hand account of his whereabouts. who knows if he isn't already in one of those dark rooms...a pawn in a game he, as you astutely point out, is over his head.