Who is a bigger hero? Wendy Davis or Edward Snowden

[Renew Deal]

34 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Wendy Davis
	30 (88%)
	Edward Snowden
	4 (12%)
	2 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
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[JI7]

1. i don't consider Snowden a hero at all

[Jeneral2885]

15. Neither do i

People fawn over him just because he makes George Orwell's 1984 look real. There could have been a Snowden from the past--the time when there was so such thing as the internet or social media or skype. In those days, the "government" and the spy agencies performed the same tasks as what Snowden exposed. Except there was no one to be a Snowden then--if one tried would he/she be called a hero?

[Gravitycollapse]

18. Excuse me, but what are you rambling on about?

[brucefan]

81. Yea

couldn't make heads or tails out of that.

[justiceischeap]

24. I think Wendy is a hero, Snowden, not so much so I didn't vote.

But it's sad that we have to applaud someone and hold them up to hero status for doing their job.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

26. a big +1! n/t

[Glorfindel]

58. I don't either

I hope he enjoys his exile, wherever he winds up.

[Dawson Leery]

2. Davis.

[Democracyinkind]

3. Can't we all just be friends again?

I deliberatily did not vote in order to pose this question.

[hack89]

4. Hero's don't run. nt

[aquart]

10. Heroes stand and fight.

Thank you, Wendy Davis.

[hack89]

22. Yes - thank you Wendy Davis. nt

[former9thward]

46. So when Nelson Mandela went underground he was a coward?

[hack89]

51. Nelson Mandela spent 27 years in prison nt

[former9thward]

53. Right like Snowden he was facing life in prison.

So he fled and went underground. He was captured eventually. But heroes according to you don't flee.

[PoliticAverse]

61. Also Daniel Ellsburg went underground right after the NYT published the Pentagon Papers. n/t

[hack89]

63. I suggest you review your history

here is a good place to start. Notice that his first conviction was due political organizing - he led mass rallies. Also note that at no time did he consider permanent exile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela#Revolutionary_activity

[former9thward]

64. He fled.

When you go underground because the police want you that is called fleeing. Doesn't matter where you go or whether you consider it "permanent" or not. I doubt Snowden thinks what he is doing is necessarily permanent either. Maybe a sane government that does not spy on everybody will come into being. I suggest you review your history before you start slandering people. (And for a change try reading history from something more intellectual than Wiki).

[hack89]

70. He stayed in his country to fight oppression

he did not abandon his supporters and run for safety.

[former9thward]

72. Actutally he didn't.

After his arrest warrant was issued he went to Ethiopia in secret. From there he travelled to Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco, Mali, Guinea, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Senegal, England and back to Ethiopia. He finally was ordered back to S. Africa by his party and was arrested. Keep digging....

[hack89]

73. So he was a coward and had to be ordered home to fight? Don't think so.

If you read my link, you will see that he went overseas to raise funds - he was then receiving military training in Ethiopia when ordered home.

Stop trying to smear Mandela - it is clear that he intended to return to fight. Snowden is just desperately running for his life.

[former9thward]

74. You are the one smearing Mandela by saying anyone who flees authority is a coward.

That is what you originally said. Then you shifted the goalposts. You said he never left. He did leave so now you shift the goalposts even more. You no longer are in the same stadium. What Mandela did was entirely correct. No one fighting oppression should have a suicidal desire. Snowden is doing exactly the same. It is much easier to rally your supporters from out of jail than in it for life.

Your posts have become a pretzel of logic. When you say anyone who flees is a coward you are saying Mandela is a coward. A new low from the Smear Machine. What new smears are you going to have tomorrow? Can't wait.

[hack89]

76. Mandela did not run away. The distinction is clear to most.

evading capture while organizing resistance and preparing to return to fight is one thing. Blindly running for your life with no thought other than your own safety is something else all together. Hence my comments that heroes do not run away.


Lets be clear - Snowden is no Mandela. My only point.

[former9thward]

78. "Snowden is no Mandela"

Not yet. Maybe we can agree on that.

[hack89]

79. Mandela showed moral strength at an early age.

Can't see it in Snowden yet - lets see what he does next.

[csziggy]

47. Even when they're wearing running shoes!

[MineralMan]

5. No contest at all.

[MineralMan]

6. Here's a Big Hero

I'm naming it the Wendy Davis sandwich.

[MineralMan]

11. And here's a baloney sammich.

I'm calling it the Snowden sammich.

[bigbrother05]

7. Wendy ranks with the Chinese guy staring down the tank

Standing tall against entrenched power making a difference. Not quite as dangerous, but you can never tell in a CCW state.

[handmade34]

28. ....

[Renew Deal]

33. That's a bit much

Tank guy put himself in great danger. No one knows who that person is, probably for a reason.

[bigbrother05]

87. Note my recognition of the physical risk difference

The commitment to stand up to overwhelming power and making a principled stance is the comparison.

Her determination to stick it out under the filibuster rules is the type of action that will inspire the Dems and help turn Texas blue.

[Godhumor]

8. Snowden is a criminal not a hero

So, no contest.

[mike_c]

14. Elie Wiesel was a criminal too, until he wasn't anymore...

...because the laws that made him a criminal were recognized as unjust. Rosa Parks was a criminal. Martin Luther King was a criminal. John Scopes was a criminal.

I am CERTAINLY a criminal, and unless you live in a monastery somewhere, you probably are too.

[JI7]

20. just gets silly comparing Snowden to Eli Wiesel, Rosa Parks etc

[mike_c]

23. where did I compare Ed Snowden to Wiesel or Parks...?

I did no such thing. I pointed out that the argument "he is a criminal" is shaky ground, at best. What's criminal behavior one day is often admired the next.

[Renew Deal]

35. Two posts up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023104912#post14

[mike_c]

43. reading comprehension isn't what it used to be....

eom

[Renew Deal]

48. Apparently

"Elie Wiesel was a criminal too, until he wasn't anymore..."

[mike_c]

57. what part of that statement do you disagree with?

They rounded him and his family up and put them into concentration camps. Sheesh. Rosa Parks violated segregationist city transportation statutes. MLK was arrested several times for violating various Jim Crow laws. And so on.

Now read this: the point is, that being labeled a "criminal" has absolutely nothing to do with heroism or its opposite, whatever you believe that to be.

[frylock]

66. is it more silly than calling snowden a traitor?

[baldguy]

21. Yeah, right. They're EXACTLY THE SAME!!!

Elie Wiesel was fighting against losing his life. Ed Snowden was worried about losing his internet connection.


This is the most pathetic comparison I've seen in a while. A very long while.

[mike_c]

25. and you missed the point entirely....

The point is that "he is a criminal" is rather devoid of relevance to the question of whether or not he's heroic.

[baldguy]

32. Snowden's a self-serving douchebag. Wiesel, Parks, King, Scopes, TR, Ellsberg, Sullenberger are not.

The real point is: Snowden CAN'T be a hero, because he's doing all this for his own megalomaniacal fantasies. Not for anyone else.

[mike_c]

41. you've spoken to him about that?

Or did you just make it up based on your own preconceptions? I mean, you know his inner motives and all!

[baldguy]

45. You've seemed to have been seduced by your own preconceptions, saying he's a hero & all.

All I've seen of him and everything I've read since this started indicates that he's a typical RW libertarian asshole.

I've never met Rand Paul either, and I have the same opinion of him.

[mike_c]

52. and you're still making stuff up....

Go up to the OP and click on Show Names. I voted for none of the above. I have said-- in other threads-- that I consider Snowden heroic, but that was early on, after the initial documents were released. And note that someone can be both heroic and a criminal simultaneously-- I've provided some examples. More recently I've written that I am reserving judgement until we see all the information that he releases. But I've also made no secret that I fully accept Brandeis' homily that "sunlight is the best disinfectant" so yeah, at the end of the day I approve of what Snowden has done-- but I'll reserve my thoughts on his motives and personality until I learn more about it, preferably from more reliable sources than the popular media. I'm much less concerned about Snowden than I am about indiscriminate electronic surveillance without probable cause.

[JI7]

44. not only that but he probably made things worse for the people of China

whatever he gave the chinese and how they could use to to make things even more restrictive for the people.

[frylock]

68. i'll just bet you know from self-serving douchebags

[avaistheone1]

80. Nelson Mandala was a criminal before he was a hero.

[mike_c]

9. who is the greater hero: Rosa Parks or Theodore Roosevelt?

Daniel Ellsberg or Chesley Sullenberger? It's apples to oranges. They're all heroes in different arenas.

[Gravitycollapse]

12. Stupid poll.

[quinnox]

13. Snowden

Not to diminish her stand, but Snowden is off the charts in terms of his impact, it could even have been a watershed event. Time will tell.

I have said it before, and will say it again - he deserves the presidential medal of freedom.

[NoOneMan]

60. Snowden also has pissed off the most powerful nation on earth with his neck on the line

Though, I think its ridiculous that people still need "heroes".

[cali]

16. this level of nonsense is just embarrassing to see.

[MjolnirTime]

89. I thought you had lost all ability to be embarrassed.

[Autumn]

17. I think they both did the right thing. My heros are dead.

[sibelian]

19. ???

[Renew Deal]

37. At least someone understands me

[carolinayellowdog]

83. if this is a joke it's a good one, flypaper in fact

if not intended as a joke, it STILL is a good one

[The Straight Story]

27. Who do you think would be a better president - her, or Obama? (nt)

[Renew Deal]

40. Do we actually know anything about her?

No one knew who she was until yesterday.

[MagickMuffin]

65. Well in Texas she is very well known as fighting for us

and in turn we fight for her!

[JI7]

42. lets elect her President so we can compare them

[Marrah_G]

29. Apples and oranges

I like what both did.

[still_one]

30. I am not a Snowden fan, but the fact is you cannot compare the two. It is not apples with apples

Wendy Davis is a senator, Snowden is not elected

[Gregorian]

31. This thread has the appeal of those cage fights.

Two go in, one comes out!

[idwiyo]

34. This is the stupidest OP I have seen so far on DU. IMNSHO

[The Straight Story]

36. You obviously have not seen many of mine

[idwiyo]

50. Link or it didn't happen!

[Cali_Democrat]

38. Wendy!

[PennsylvaniaMatt]

39. Without a doubt, Wendy Davis

Snowden isn't a hero at all

[hamsterjill]

49. Wendy's the hero; Snowden, I'm not sure about.

I'm waiting for the outcome.

[ZombieHorde]

54. Gary Gygax. nt

[graham4anything]

55. Wendy Davis, by far.

[Spirochete]

56. Davis

I'm not in doubt about her motives.

[Posteritatis]

59. Because it's obviously a competition. (nt)

[Arctic Dave]

62. Both.

For different reasons though.

[frylock]

67. i like turtles

[Douglas Carpenter]

69. Wendy Davis may be a hero too - But she did not have to sacrifice her former life for what she did.

Much of the establishment media will be showering her with praise. I am sure she will find fundraising for her future campaigns very easy. No doubt she will be the hit on the political cocktail party circuit. And quite frankly Wendy is on the side that is now winning. As the surveillance state grows and grows with the support of both parties and the support of even much of the liberal establishment - and apparently the majority of a very gullible and naive public - when these instruments of tyranny are turned on us - and they will be - then perhaps people will learn that standing up for freedom is not about personalities and popularity contests. Sometimes it is the opposite.

[Thinkingabout]

82. Wendy did not break the law, she did not steal and she has not peddle stolen files abroad.

[Douglas Carpenter]

86. and she did not do anything that required any sacrifice whatsoever. Her popularity is going to soar

No doubt she will be the toast of the town from Austin to San Francisco to Washington D.C. She will never have to left a finger again to raise funds for any of her campaigns. Having said that, I support what she did 100%. It was a brilliant tactic for sure.

To see so many siding against human rights tells me that many people here have no more depth to their convictions than junior high kids campaigning for prom queen or king. Whoever Mr. Snowden is, whatever he has done in the past or will do in the future, whatever his motivations - he has put everything on the line for his country and perhaps the whole world. Like with Paul Revere - also a party of a group of seamy characters who broke the law, stole things and certainly committed vandalism - the fate of our nation and perhaps the whole world is riding with him tonight. If his enemies succeed - the clandestine services of the government will continue to expand their ability to make records of every single electronic communication you or I will ever make for the rest of our lives. The growth of technology and the ever increasing budget backed by both parties including almost all of the mainstream media and most of the liberal establishment will continue to set up networks that will in time be nothing more than networks of control - control of you and control of me - building a society where no one is free. For whatever his motives, Mr. Snowden has thrown a monkey wrench into that system. The stand Mr. Snowden has taken for freedom is not going to win him any popularity contest - He will not be the toast of the cocktail party circuit - He will face a very difficult future - paying a very dear price for opposing the ever increasing expansion of the instruments of the authoritarian future that awaits all of his - should those who are behind the darkening of his name succeed in their agenda..

[Politicub]

71. Wendy's stand is what courage looks like

Snowden is a picture of cowardice.

[ohheckyeah]

75. The word hero

has been so over used and abused it no longer has any meaning.

[DCBob]

77. good poll.

well done!

[4bucksagallon]

84. Snowden is a traitor. Wendy's not a hero but someone to be admired....

I guess my definition of hero is not the same as yours. I think some people have too many heroes personally I don't like the concept of hero worship. I may admire a persons qualities without thinking of them as heroic. My hero pedestals are almost completely empty and I can't think of anyone offhand currently living deserving of that title, especially Snowden.

[railsback]

85. Ouch. SnowdenWald got blown away.

[davidpdx]

88. OMG DU betrayed its hero?

Fake outrage, fake outrage, fake outrage.



Ps-I did not vote because clearly this is no comparison