Eyewitnesses describe Zimmerman as aggressor

[LanternWaste]

The first eyewitnesses in the murder trial of George Zimmerman testified Wednesday that they believe Trayvon Martin was yelling for help and being beaten by Zimmerman before he died.

Jayne Surdyka, a former resident of Retreat at Twin Lakes, testified that she believes she heard Trayvon Martin screaming for help shortly before being shot.

Manalo said she heard howling, then someone closer yelling "help." She said she looked outside through a door but it was too dark to make out exactly what was happening.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/26/trayvon-martin-murder-zimmerman-sanford-florida/2458133/




To be perfectly honest, my only concern was met when Z was arrested and indicted. Prior to that, I actually believed there would be zero consequences to his action, so I was thoroughly relieved when I discovered it would go to trial.

As the trial began Monday, I was so-so about any eventual verdict, thinking to myself that there was about a 50/50 chance he'd be found guilty. But as the trial continues, as the testimony comes out, and as the witnesses take their turns on the stand, I'm now thinking there's an 80/20 chance in favor of Z getting sentenced for shooting and killing Mr. Martin.

[DrDan]

1. that last witness has hurt the state imo

[LanternWaste]

2. How precisely do you think it weakens the prosecutor's case

How precisely do you think it weakens the prosecutor's case as laid out to date?

[woolldog]

7. It really hasn't, imo.

I think she's so unlikable that people seem to be making the logical leap that she hurt the case because she's an unsympathetic witness.

But in reality I think you could throw out her testimony and the prosecution still has a strong case.

[LanternWaste]

8. This was the third time today I've read on DU that she hurt the prosecution's case

This was the third time today I've read on DU that she hurt the prosecution's case, but no one appears very forthcoming in stating precisely how she hurt it.

So maybe you're correct. Maybe people are simply projecting their dislike of her onto the case as a whole.

I don't pretend to know either way.

[EOTE]

19. Likability of witnesses can certainly affect a trial's outcome.

Do you really believe jurors are immune to that kind of stuff? You tend to give less credence to the words of someone you really dislike. I'd think her complaints about being there would be a really big one, especially when the jurors are going to have to be there much longer than she'd have to. I'd also think that the jurors might have been expecting a witness eager to show Trayvon some justice, instead they got someone who couldn't even be bothered to speak up or not complain incessantly. I do believe she hurt the prosecutions case to an extent, though I hope I'm wrong.

[WovenGems]

29. Yea but...

That also applies to the defense attorney. And he came off looking Scrooge's younger brother. And that ain't good for Zimmerman in the least. It's a female jury and gals know a bully boy when they see one.

[EOTE]

32. But the defense attorney NEEDS to be an asshole.

I mean, how else can you defend this vigilante moron who went out looking for a fight and ended up killing someone? I mean, you really can't defend Zimmerman's actions WITHOUT being an asshole. But the prosecution here is in the right. They can be as pleasant as possible and still work toward justice for Trayvon. The prosecuting attorney has been great so far, it's just that their star witness seems to have no idea how to act in court. It's really sad.

[DrDan]

11. she has given 3 answers as to whether it was Martin's voice on the tape

"it is"
"it could be"
"I don't know"

definitely gives the defense some meat in offering doubt

[ksoze]

3. It should be 50/50 until you hear all the testimony as the Jury will

Otherwise, you will need to score each day and in the end, it will be the entirety of the case which the juror swill decide. There is a reason they don't deliberate after each day.

[LanternWaste]

4. Makes no difference if it's 50/50, 80/20 or 0/100.

Makes no difference if my prognostications are 50/50, 80/20 or 0/100. My opinions re: the case are not relevant to the trial, nor do I need to score each day, as my score is also irrelevant. I have nothing to do with the case, therefore my guesses too, have nothing to do with the case...

And if my opinions do change, those changes too are quite irrelevant. I don't require objectivity in informal and non-professional opinions. Hence, I may state, with oodles of bias and absolutely no objectivity, that I dislike pickled herring... because it's not relevant to anything of any substance.

[ksoze]

5. My hovercraft is full of eels

[LanternWaste]

6. Bless your little heart...

Well, bless your little heart...

[Lurks Often]

9. I've been following the case via tweets by reporters in the courtroom

and I expected the prosecution's witness's testimony to be more effective then I've seen so far. The police dispatcher, the police liaison to the neighborhood watch and HOA president actually seem to have helped the defense.

I think that the testimony of Manalo under cross examination may blow up on the prosecution when the defense begins it's case. I believe it was Manalo who testified that the one wearing the dark clothes was on top and also that the larger person was on top. When the defense gets to the evidence of who was wearing what, they are going to remind the jury that prosecution witness Manalo testified she saw the person wearing the dark clothes and then introduce defense exhibit # such and such, a dark grey jacket belonging to Martin. At some point expect the defense to point out that Martin was 5'11 to 6'2"* which would make him 3"-6" taller then Zimmerman's 5'8"


*Martin's height ranges from the 5'11" that the medical examiner measured after rigor had set in to the 6'2" claimed by the family and police measurements at the scene.

[ksoze]

10. +1

Opinions here appear set in place before the trial started and holding firm regardless of the actual testimony.

[yardwork]

12. The witness stated that the person on top was the person who got up.

That proves that Zimmerman was on top. Martin never got up again.

You can play with your tape measure all you like but the fact is that the witness said that the person on top was the one who got up. Zimmerman.

[uponit7771]

14. +1

[Lurks Often]

16. The witness also stated that the person that got up was wearing dark clothing

Martin was wearing a dark grey hooded sweatshirt according to the evidence.

Zimmerman was wearing something red and grey, primarily red by the photographs.

How do you reconcile the differing statements from the same witness?

[yardwork]

17. Red looks dark in the dark.

It's much easier to see somebody getting up than to tell colors in the dark.

Zimmerman got up. Martin lay dead.

[Lurks Often]

31. Which is something neither side has brought up

As far as I know, neither side has discussed how much ambient light was present. There have been State witness's that have said the person was wearing dark clothes and some have said the person on top was wearing red clothes, but neither side AFAIK has asked that same witness what the person on the bottom was wearing.

And yes, if it is dark enough one can not tell the difference between red and dark grey, so witness testimony based on who was wearing what is inconclusive.


Is there any evidence that will convince you that Zimmerman is innocent?

[yardwork]

39. I think that I will decline to help the defense.

Another poster stated that the are in direct contact with Zimmerman's defense. They posted that they sent the defense an idea and Z's attorneys thanked them.

The jury is sequestered. I don't think I will post any ideas to help the defense.

[Lurks Often]

42. Meaning that there is no evidence that will change your mind that Zimmerman is guilty? n/t

[Myrina]

38. Well, Z could have been on the ground ...

... Trayvon, having finally gotten the better of the creep that was following him, was holding him down & yelling for help.
Z could have shot him from on his bach if he could have gotten an arm free.


PLEASE READ MY SIG LINE. THANKS AND HAVE A NICE DAY.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

13. How in your opinion did the dispatcher, police liason and HOA president help the defense?

Just curious.

[Lurks Often]

15. I recall all three saying he was polite

The HOA president appreciated his hard work and volunteering to help the HOA with parking issues. (Having lived in a condo complex it can be very difficult to get people who work full time to volunteer their time for ANYTHING)

The Liaison mentioned that neighborhood watch were allowed to follow at a distance and that he was so good at the neighborhood watch that the the PD tried to get him into some civilian police auxiliary program where they would have given Zimmerman a police vehicle (I'm guessing absent lights & sirens, but with the radio and modified markings) and uniform and that Zimmerman declined.

The dispatcher stated that he did not and could not tell Zimmerman what to do and also that he could understand him asking Zimmerman which way Martin ran as a suggestion Zimmerman get out of his truck, even though the dispatcher didn't mean it that way

[yardwork]

18. Lots of killers are polite.

Ted Bundy was polite.

[Starry Messenger]

22. Yep.

[JustAnotherGen]

26. +1

[Lurks Often]

34. I see you responded to these least relevant part of my post

about their testimony and not the more important parts of the testimony of the dispatcher and police liaison.

[Trajan]

35. we see you responded to the response to the least post

Without recognizing that it was rebutted ...

[Lurks Often]

36. Is that the best you can do? n/t

[KurtNYC]

20. One person has a gun, martial arts training and an SUV. The other sees him and runs.

Seems pretty clear who the aggressor is.

[yardwork]

25. Especially since the one without the gun ended up dead

[yardwork]

41. You don't have a right to shoot somebody

Just because they are a black teenager wearing a hoodie.

[WinkyDink]

21. "too dark to make out exactly what was happening" does not = "Eyewitness." EARwitness, maybe.

[ecstatic]

23. I think Zimmer approached Trayvon with his gun already drawn

That's why the phone conversation ended so abruptly. Trayvon had to fight for his life.

[yardwork]

24. I've thought that since hearing the 911 tapes

Those are the howls of a teenager terrified for his life.

[WovenGems]

28. Always

The hunter is always the aggressor. 'Tis Nature's Way.

[Myrina]

37. Except for the one that's on the stand now, Mr. Good ...

... he seems to have "seen" the opposite of everyone else, despite it being (again) "too dark to see".

If I were the DA I'd be objecting to this cross-examination like a mo'fo because the Defense has Mr. Good 'speculating' and "I guess"-ing all over the place.

[LittleBlue]

40. Not looking good for the prosecution

I thought they would present a much stronger case TBH.