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Thu Jun 27, 2013, 10:55 AM

I am the most politically depressed that I have been in a long, long time.

If I didn't know for absolute certainty that it would do more harm than good - I would withdraw my support from the Democratic Party. But more than 30 years ago I did the third party thing and needless to say, it did not work out well. I'm afraid ours system is simply configured for the two parties. Last time there was a truly successful and lasting third party effort was when Abraham Lincoln led the Republicans to power when the nation was on the brink of civil war. Even a party led by a former President under Teddy Roosevelt could not last. Even a party led by a former Vice President, Henry Wallace quickly faded into obscurity. We simply are and for the foreseeable future a two party system in the U.S.

It is not that I am so shocked and cannot believe the intelligence services are getting way, way, way out of control - even under a Democratic administration. It is not because I personally blame President Obama for this travesty. This is the results of bipartisan post September 11 madness fueled all the more by the explosive growth of the private surveillance industry of what Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson have called the Intelligence Industrial Complex. Just as there came a time when the Democrats realized that they had made a mistake in Vietnam - a mistake caused by cold war bipartisan madness - most Democrats eventually came to the realization that we had to get out of that terrible mistake - I cannot imagine why anyone who would espouse liberal or progressive or even basic eighth grade civics class values - cannot see how dangerous it is to continue down this road into an ever expanding Intelligence Industrial Complex. Quite likely the NSA are already keeping records of every time and place any of us communicate with anyone on the phone or on the Internet or by any electronic means. If they are not already doing this - there is a strong possibility that they are rapidly moving in that direction. Even if the Obama administration does not actively abuse the system very much - it is only a matter of time before it is abused by some future Dick Cheney or John Ashcroft. This massive growth of the Intelligence Industrial Complex can only mean that in time a whole web of clandestine surveillance and ultimately clandestine control will soon encapsulate all of us. Does anyone seriously believe that this meteoric growth of the clandestine services will stop at simply making records of who and when we call and who and when we send E-mails to and when or what websites we might be visiting or searches on the search engines we might be searching? The massive growth of the clandestine private sector industry and the boom of technology - what do people think the future bodes? The Snowden affair gives us the opportunity to stop, appraise and reverse the direction we are heading. But majorities in both parties - the media from Fox News to CNN as well as most of the liberal establishment - are not appraising the situation - Many liberals are now supporting that which only a short time they were denouncing with outrage and fury - So here we are as we sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science…”.


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Read the original Verizon/NSA Top Secret Court order in full:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jun/06/verizon-telephone-data-court-order





The National Security Agency is currently collecting the telephone records of millions of US customers of Verizon, one of America's largest telecoms providers, under a top secret court order issued in April.

The order, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, requires Verizon on an "ongoing, daily basis" to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the US and between the US and other countries.The document shows for the first time that under the Obama administration the communication records of millions of US citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulk – regardless of whether they are suspected of any wrongdoing.

The secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (Fisa) granted the order to the FBI on April 25, giving the government unlimited authority to obtain the data for a specified three-month period ending on July 19. Under the terms of the blanket order, the numbers of both parties on a call are handed over, as is location data, call duration, unique identifiers, and the time and duration of all calls. The contents of the conversation itself are not covered.

The court order expressly bars Verizon from disclosing to the public either the existence of the FBI's request for its customers' records, or the court order itself. The order, signed by Judge Roger Vinson, compels Verizon to produce to the NSA electronic copies of "all call detail records or 'telephony metadata' created by Verizon for communications between the United States and abroad" or "wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls".




http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order


Read the original Verizon Court order in full:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jun/06/verizon-telephone-data-court-order


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42 replies, 3334 views

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Reply I am the most politically depressed that I have been in a long, long time. (Original post)
Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 OP
sibelian Jun 2013 #1
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #4
sibelian Jun 2013 #7
siligut Jun 2013 #30
MotherPetrie Jun 2013 #5
sibelian Jun 2013 #8
Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #13
arely staircase Jun 2013 #17
Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #35
arely staircase Jun 2013 #36
Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #39
Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #40
Warren Stupidity Jun 2013 #2
Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #3
bhikkhu Jun 2013 #6
L0oniX Jun 2013 #9
silvershadow Jun 2013 #10
L0oniX Jun 2013 #11
arely staircase Jun 2013 #18
mike_c Jun 2013 #12
arely staircase Jun 2013 #19
Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #37
arely staircase Jun 2013 #41
snooper2 Jun 2013 #14
Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #15
LineReply ,
Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #16
Le Taz Hot Jun 2013 #20
Liberal_in_LA Jun 2013 #21
marions ghost Jun 2013 #23
Le Taz Hot Jun 2013 #24
marions ghost Jun 2013 #26
forestpath Jun 2013 #22
marions ghost Jun 2013 #25
Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #27
marions ghost Jun 2013 #29
alarimer Jun 2013 #28
Maximumnegro Jun 2013 #33
flamingdem Jun 2013 #31
Maximumnegro Jun 2013 #32
nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #34
Agony Jun 2013 #38
DevonRex Jun 2013 #42

Response to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:02 AM

1. Getting depressed about it isn't going to change it, is it? nt.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #1)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:16 AM

4. No, but I think being honest about one's feelings is in

 

general a positive. Denying one's feelings and staying Pollyanna-ish hardly seems likely to change anything either.

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #4)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:30 AM

7. True, feeling bad is an inescapable fact of reality.


I hope it doesn't lead into giving up, is all. Perhaps I was a little blunt!

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Response to sibelian (Reply #7)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 07:00 PM

30. It is difficult to think clearly when depressed

The worst of it is knowing you have to do something but not having the energy or clarity of mind to know what that something is. This is why the Russians made vodka part of the rations.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #1)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:18 AM

5. "Change"... gee, where have I heard THAT before....

 

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #5)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:31 AM

8. Arg! Cynicism makes things worse not better!


YES, things have a tendency to go wrong. No, that doesn't mean they have to stay that way! Says I.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #1)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:03 PM

13. no, but it does give me a good excuse to go buy another bottle of Glenlevit Single Malt

But other than that it does cause me to try reappraise the situation. I mean, I have accepted so many political realities that in the just world should not be acceptable. How do we mobilize a fight against an ever increasing Surveillance Industrial Complex - when many if not most liberals are now talking like conservatives talked back during the Bush years? Or they are so overwhelmed with concern about the short-term political consequences they are deluding themselves as to what his all means in the real world in the big picture for long term.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #13)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 04:23 PM

17. you don't ver need an excuse for that

nt

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #17)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 08:03 PM

35. with a 700 ml Glenlevit 18-year single malt costing almsot double the price of 1 liter Jack D - I do

need an excuse

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #35)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 08:07 PM

36. not generally a fan of blended scotch but

this is awesome:



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Response to arely staircase (Reply #36)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 08:24 PM

39. hmm,,, I'lll have to see if it is avaialble here

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Response to sibelian (Reply #1)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 09:49 PM

40. I am just aghast that people who certainly should better sounding like the airheads and blowhards

on Fox and friends did when the Bush administration was expanding the surveillance state. I honestly thought liberals were both smarter and more principled than that. Changing your position 180 degrees just to attack your opponents - I thought that's what right wingers do - not liberals.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:03 AM

2. it started with truman and continued unabated to the present moment. bipartisan cluster fuck. nt.

 

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:14 AM

3. "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

 

G B Shaw
& R

Politicians and their most ardent supporters are fond of pointing out that they cannot save us. If this is true, what good purpose do any of them serve?

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:28 AM

6. Lists of phone numbers have you depressed?

"Under the terms of the blanket order, the numbers of both parties on a call are handed over, as is location data, call duration, unique identifiers, and the time and duration of all calls. The contents of the conversation itself are not covered."

Call records, as far as numbers called, have been recorded for ages. How many times have we heard about suspects having made international calls, and how do you think we'd know if international calls were made if numbers weren't recorded? When you get your phone bill it gives you a list of numbers called. Its done that as long as I can remember - 40 years at least. Do you feel violated by that? Did you ever call the phone company for assurances that they destroyed all records of your phone calls after they sent you the bill?

I always thought call records were available to the police, myself, if they were investigating crimes. I always assumed, after 9/11, that call records were available to HS, as they planned hard to avoid another intelligence failure like that.

I would find some other reason to be depressed, myself, such as climate change or inequality, though depression does tend to render people ineffective...maybe do something instead.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:46 AM

9. I'm a Democrat Zombie voter but I will never trust this government ever again.

 

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #9)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 12:17 PM

10. Good Democrats like Russ Feingold, Alan Grayson, and a few others need to forcefully lead the charge

 

for drastic change. That includes within the party. I sure hope they are able to get some inertia.

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Response to silvershadow (Reply #10)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 12:19 PM

11. With all the infections in the Dem party ...they don't stand a chance.

 

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #11)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 04:23 PM

18. infections, who are they?

nt

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 12:52 PM

12. sadly, I agree...

...and I'm stunned by the number of self-styled "liberals" who accept and even embrace the surveillance and security state.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #12)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 04:26 PM

19. the ol' no true Scotsman fallacy wrapped in an ad hominem

no real liberal could disagree with me on X, therefore those who disagree with me aren't liberals. and they kinda just suck. gotcha.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #19)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 08:13 PM

37. real;liberals supported the McCarthy witch hunts - the Vietnam War. Real liberals played a major

role in all kinds of terrible things ...




Still just how desperate and disingenuous the arguments in defense of the ever expanding surveillance state coming from people who would railing against it if this was a Republican administration are jaw dropping.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #37)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 10:04 PM

41. we liberals have had our hands in some terrible things

McCarthyism was before my time but I think everyone was kinda complicit in that for a bit until even Ike (liberal by todays standards) had enough and shut the mofo down when he went after the Army.

We liberals had a big part in starting the Vietnam War but also stopping it when conservatives wanted it to continue, and we got Civil Rights done in between. We have fought for equal rights for women, gays and everyone..sometimes too slowly, but alone when nobody else would. I proudly call myself an American liberal Democrat, or progressive is fine.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:09 PM

14. This is why I have Dr. Moley on speed dial

 

&nofeather=True

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Response to snooper2 (Reply #14)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 01:50 PM

15. cool

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 04:33 PM

20. And I'm the most politically hopeful I've been in a long time.

Watching Democracy in action such as what happened in Texas on Tuesday night did my activist heart SO much good. I think of all the stuff that has happened in Wisconsin. The Good Guys don't always win but I hate it when we don't even try. I'm encouraged by the new firebrands bursting on the scene: Wendy Davis, Alan Grayson, Elizabeth Warren and so many others. These were all people not even on the radar 5 years ago and all of a sudden we're seeing some real movement. We're Americans. It's in our DNA to rebel. I know most people think we're too lazy and soft for rebellion but I refuse to believe that and I look around and it's confirmed. I'm seeing people more and more involved in all kinds of issues, including spying, drones, GMO's, even local stuff. We managed to push back privatization of our trash pick up recently and that's because the Democrats, the unions and a whole bunch of us working stiffs got out and worked our asses off to defeat a REALLY WELL-FINANCED campaign. Their contributions were in the tens of thousands of dollars. Ours was $5.00, $10.00, and a LOT of people hitting the streets.

I'm sorry that you're demoralized and I sincerely hope you get out of your funk. Me? I'm INSPIRED!

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #20)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 04:38 PM

21. nice to read some positive political chat

 

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #20)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 04:56 PM

23. That's all very positive

and I do feel encouraged by some of these new leaders--but I think we also have to ask why we are in the position of struggling for basic rights at every turn.

For all the gains you cite, there are just as many losses. It's like pushing the rock uphill.--you get it to the top and there's another one to push. If you go to some other countries where this is not the case, you realize the difference immediately. People are not jaded, burnt out, disgusted, depressed, like they are here. They can still believe the government does actually work for them. I'm talking about countries that have corporate taxes, for example.

I understand why anyone is depressed about what we are seeing today. Did you ever think we'd see voting rights in jeopardy? Did you ever think we'd see the government surveillance monster that has been created by the NSA and other agencies? Did you ever think we'd see whole states bought by a few greedy capitalists who want to slice them up as gifts to their friends?

I applaud your efforts, but in a country that really cares about the people, we should not have to push boulders uphill. We should be going beyond that and working for the general good, not fighting enemies within.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #23)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 05:01 PM

24. And I've read enough history

to know that the struggle is NEVER over. There will always be Robber Barons and there will always be a progressive push-back. The second we get too comfy and cozy it all starts all over again. I'm not discouraged by having to re-fight these battles. I'm just discouraged if we don't even try. It's something I accept as part of the process.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #24)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 05:29 PM

26. I understand your POV but

I think there are countries that are confronting this "old story" much better than we are, and their citizens are far less stressed.

But even though they are stressed & depressed, I think Americans put up with far too much before they begin to fight back. So am agreement with you there. I agree that in this country there is NO choice BUT to fight, or you WILL be run down. But it leads to a very adversarial society where the advantages of actually pulling together for the good of the many and not just the few, are rarely realized.

Life should not be a fight for basic rights. Too draining. We could do amazing and far-reaching things if we weren't having to fight the greedy rich takers who want it all. They will never share, they will never care.

I can imagine a different way of living.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 04:46 PM

22. I feel the same way. I never thought I'd feel worse than I did when Reagan and Bush were

 

president. But when you have a Democratic president who picks up where they left off, and the Democrats in congress are mostly DINOs, it's just realistic to see the Democratic party for what it has become.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 05:17 PM

25. You are depressed because this IS depressing

Anyone who is not depressed about these recent NSA revelations just does not know how to evaluate what is going on. They don't have the perception to see where this is going, and for the most part they don't have the technical understanding of the way the technology is being used. The NSA et al are taking full advantage of the naivete and the lack of tech savvy of most Americans.

You speak truth:

"This massive growth of the Intelligence Industrial Complex can only mean that in time a whole web of clandestine surveillance and ultimately clandestine control will soon encapsulate all of us."

--You know what depresses me? I think this whole NSA surveillance monster has been created to a large extent because the NSA and the agencies in collusion have railroaded their programs through and lied to Congress, the president, the FISA judges, the media--to anyone who buys their arguments. The government that is supposed to have oversight just is not equipped to evaluate what they are supposed to be overseeing. They have bought into a lie, and been taken advantage of. IMO some of them are ONLY seeing the hard, cold truth of this now. And that is scary.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #25)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 06:53 PM

27. what depresses me most - is that people who should know better are talking like the idiots on Fox

and Friends - during the Bush years.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #27)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 06:59 PM

29. They don't want to accept the truth that we

have been betrayed, mainly by the NSA but also by those who have not provided adequate oversight or controls for whatever reason. Easier to trash the messenger.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 06:58 PM

28. I've all but given up.

I'm no longer a registered Democrat. I'd compare Republicans to snakes, but snakes are useful creatures (many eat rodents). Democrats are spineless weasels. The exceptions are few and far between. Wendy Davis stood up against the evil empire that is Republican Texas, but will ultimately lose that battle. True progressives are constantly being thrown under the bus in the name of electability. If she runs for governor, you can bet Obama and other party "leaders" will pick some milquetoast mainstream, do-nothing, with the excuse that Davis is too "out there".

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Response to alarimer (Reply #28)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 07:24 PM

33. True progressives lack the ability overall

to stay united. And don't even for a second bring Obama into this. Because without him there would be no Elizabeth Warren and Consumer Protection Bureau or Senator Warren or a Latina Supreme Court Justice, etc. That's what I'm talking about. Progressives have only themselves to blame, because they always look to blame someone else instead of doing what Obama has been TELLING them to do over and over and that is to ORGANIZE and MAKE HIM achieve the things they want.

I am far left politically but I am fed up with a party that just whines all the time, while simultaneously castigating the very voices (Nader, Kucinich, etc.) that are trying to advocate for them, even if flawed (as we ALL are).

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 07:02 PM

31. We have a lot of other battles especially with Republicans, don't forget 2014 nt

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)


Response to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 07:26 PM

34. Perhas this will give you some hope

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023114411

We are getting one more leaker...now from real high in top brass land.

Something is happening here...

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 08:18 PM

38. This will soon be a lost opportunity like the lost opportunity to re-regulate Wall Street after the

fraud fest. ...a depression that comes from not knowing where to begin again, I share.

Cheers,
Agony

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Original post)

Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:20 PM

42. You mean this Joe who called Obama naive for not voting for Bush's war? And praised Hillary

for her vote? And whose wife made her living as a CIA officer and no doubt benefited greatly from the very technology they're bemoaning? Oh, and who campaigned against Obama. This is only one of several hit pieces he did in support of Hillary (who I believe was a fine SoS and would make a good president should she choose to run).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-wilson/legitimate-questions-of-j_b_100080.html

"Saddam was a serial violator of human rights, had started two wars in the region in the previous decade, continued to threaten his neighbors, including Israel, which he once said he would destroy with weapons of mass destruction. We may not have fully understood how little remained of his WMD arsenal, but were we really willing in the aftermath of 9/11 to give him a free pass, as Obama's rewriting of history suggests he might have done?

The approach of tough diplomacy backed by the threat of military action was the correct one and it yielded exactly the desired results, a unanimously passed U.N. resolution and the capitulation of Saddam when he readmitted the inspectors.

The betrayal occurred not when the president was given the tools he needed to secure international support for inspections, but rather when Bush refused to allow the inspectors to complete their work and decided preemptively to invade, conquer and occupy Iraq.

That decision and power was his alone -- not the Congress' and certainly not Hillary Clinton's. Obama is wrong to turn Bush's war into Clinton's responsibility. And Obama is dangerously na•ve in failing to understand the need in international crises to blend tough diplomacy with the other foreign policy tools at our disposal to achieve a strong national security posture."

Snip

He goes on to say stuff about Rev. Wright. Blah blah. BS BS.

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