DU you believe that most people who oppose expansive NSA surveillance are libertarian trolls?

[Douglas Carpenter]

or some other kind of disruptor/troll

35 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes, that is obvious most people who post here who oppose the expansive NSA surveillance program are libertarian or some other kind of trolls
	0 (0%)
	Actually it is about 50/50
	0 (0%)
	No ,most of them are not trolls, They are just naive
	1 (3%)
	No, very few if any of them are trolls. They have a very legitimate concern about an expanding NSA surveillance program like almost eveyone here did during the Bush years.
	34 (97%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[ram2008]

1. No, It's just another attempt at deflection from people who cannot rationally defend the NSA/PRISM

Some people have such emotional investment in President Obama that they cannot attack the governments actions without taking a swipe at their own egos.

At the same time any rational person can see that what the NSA is doing is horrible for the country and a gross violation of privacy. No true liberal can defend it without appearing like a hypocritical neo-con.

So they are left with attacking the messenger calling everyone a libertarian, paul bot, etc. It's sad.

[RC]

35. +1000 Many here agree with what you said. The DU poll shows that.

No one truly Left of Center can support our government's wholesale spying on everyone's communications. Those around the Center have to be uncomfortable with it. And those that support and defending that spying, what are they doing on DU in the first place.
Our government's spying on us violates most of the Articles of the Bill of Rights. More people need to read it with comprehension.

[idwiyo]

2. No, but at least one of them is a COMMIE! There are some socialists in the mix too... The HORROR!!!

PS. I am that dreaded commie.

[leftstreet]

4. +2

[idwiyo]

7. OMG!1!!1! Existence of 2 commies is proof of Konspiracy to take over the Worl... err I mean DU!

ALL YOUR DU DEBATES ARE BELONG TO US!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!1!!1!

[Douglas Carpenter]

8. I'm used to being called a Communist - and I REALLY am not -at all

and I actually know what the word means and have discussed the matter in pedantic detail with real live Communist on countless occasions. But being called a libertarian is something new to me. Looney left - far left - one poster who used to be prolific here called me and others "Fringe McGovernites" -- but libertarian - I don't know what on earth would make anyone think that - especially if we are arguing a point of view 100% exactly the same as they would be arguing too if there was a Republican in the White House

[idwiyo]

14. I am a Communist, but I don't belong to any party and my idea of what Communism is might be

very different from mainstream.

I believe in "from everyone according to their abilities, to everyone according to their need/wish",
Universal Human Rights without any exceptions (and including some non-human species, and AI), Nationalisation of all natural resources, and all essential services, absolute transparency for government, borderless and classless society, etc., etc.

Its more like a set of moral and ethical values I try to live by and some goals I think would be worth implementing IRL.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. We are at Orange on the color coded authoritarian histrionics chart.

On the other hand they have now become my favorite amusement.

[marmar]

23. ^ Awesomeness.

I'd buy you a drink just for that post if we were in the same bar.

[quinnox]

5. Its just more paranoid crap from the faithful believer types

"Anyone who opposes our divine hero on this issue must be a stealth libertarian!"

[Savannahmann]

6. That is a common meme.

The idea that anyone who is suspicious of Government spying is somehow a RW or Libertarian Troll. Yet I've explained my own motivation many times, and I feel it is set into historic and basic liberal principles. From the anti-war demonstrations at the 1968 Democratic Convention, to the anti-nuke rally's in the 1980's. This has been a common and respected thread joining all progressives, working towards a better world. We contribute, campaign, man (woman) phone banks in an effort to get the vote out. We aren't doing this difficult and exhausting labor, in my case always for free, so my government can spy on everyone.

I did it to help elect people who would help people. We don't want a secret police, no matter how secret. We want a government that will strive for a better world. A better educated world where children from all neighborhoods get the education that the best schools provide to the heirs of the rich. We want to have health care for all, the basic human right of decent food, and decent care.

There is a facility about to go online, it cost $2 Billion and it is dedicated to spying on us all. How many hungry people could have gotten decent meals from that money? How many people could have gotten decent medical care for that money. Do you realize that is more money that the GNP of many countries? All to spy on us, not to help the people, or care for the people, but to keep an eye on the people so they can identify shadowy dangers lurking in the night.

I can think of a lot of good that could be done with $2 Billion. We could feed Africa for a year or more. We could fire up a second or third Mercy Ship to bring medical care to the same region.

This is not what I fought for, argued for, and sacrificed my time to bring forward. We are approaching Independance Day. Do you think those men froze at Valley Forge to break away from a Monarchy just so we could have a Plutocracy?

I argue for civil rights, because if we don't fight for them, we will lose them forever.

Everyone who objects is not a Libertarian. Some of us are wondering where our Party went, and we worry what will happen if a Republican wins in 2016. We will have given a facist incredible power we will be powerless to resist.

[Mnemosyne]

9. K&R ^^^ needs to be an OP. nt

[marions ghost]

10. Well said! ^^^^^^^^^^^

As we approach the 4th, I too am ashamed of this country's priorities as exposed by the NSA story.

The only thing I celebrate is that enough people might wake up to what is going on and object to it.

[bvar22]

17. One clarification:

If you were "suspicious of Government spying" when Bush-the-Lesser was President,
THEN you're cool,

BUT if you are "suspicious of Government spying" NOW,
THEN you are a "RW or Libertarian Troll"
AND a Racist to boot....

....because [font size=3]What else could it be ?[/font]

[We People]

19. Poll answer no. 5 should have been a HELL NO!

And all the while I've been reading the comments I was thinking the same thing as you, bvar. This poll feels like we're now squarly in an "up is down, bad is good" world now.

[Douglas Carpenter]

21. I would have - but I wanted to make the survey as clear and upfront as possible

[LisaLynne]

31. I second the call for this to be an OP.

Excellent, intelligent post.

[Apophis]

11. It's sad that this is even being discussed here.

Of course they're not Libertarians.

[backscatter712]

12. That's this week's talking point by the authoritarian ratfuckers.

Last week, they were calling people supporting Snowden "racists." They had to scramble to change their ratfuck talking points since the racism accusations backfired on them bigtime!

[OilemFirchen]

20. Don't know why I'm bothering to respond to one of your asinine posts, but...

you really need to learn what the term ratfucking means.

It might help in your discourse. Honestly.

[Douglas Carpenter]

13. with numerous posters making this claim - how come nobody is voting yes?

[Bobbie Jo]

15. Oh I don't know, maybe.....

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[Douglas Carpenter]

16. you think?

[Union Scribe]

18. Yeah there are some missing names up there!

Oh, I get it. They like doing the accusing but not admitting they do it.

[progressoid]

24. +1

[MrScorpio]

22. I oppose expansive NSA surveillance and I'm no libertarian troll

I oppose it for reasons that I've stated many times before.

[treestar]

29. i guess "expansive" is the term here

What is too expansive? That's what the trolls don't want to discuss. They go off with hair on fire to assume that it is "too much" and questioning that makes you "authoritarian."

[baldguy]

25. No, but they all sure do have the libertarian CTs well memorized.

[think]

26. Which libertarian conspiracy theories are you refering to?

Not saying there aren't any as I'm not looking for them. But I am curious as to what they are.

[baldguy]

33. Like saying Snowden's concerns about being assasinated by Obama should be taken seriously.

Or that Obama is listening to your phone calls.

Or that the NSA can see every email as the sender is typing it.

Or that anyone questions the truthfulness of Snowden's allegations and Greenwald's presentations of them are simply fascist brownshirts.

How that for starters?

[tridim]

27. I have yet to meet a DUer who doesn't oppose "expansive NSA surveillance"

Your lopsided poll result is proof of this.

It exposes the strawman that Snowden fanatics use all the time to disparage smart DUers with differing opinions.

Thank you!

[treestar]

28. Depends on how they put it

The ones who do not trust the government at all - why would they be in favor of social programs then? Having a database of phone calls is something they cannot be trusted with yet they should run the medical system? I hear right wingers who are against single payer or Obamacare because the government can't do anything competently.

There are a few - you know there are. This is a board for Democrats. The louder they claim to have voted for Obama (without mentioning any other Democrats) the more suspicious they are.

[randome]

30. Do you believe that trusting anything Snowden says is making good use of critical thinking skills?

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Just Saying]

32. No,

And I also don't think people who don't think it's not a huge scandal are authoritarian puppets or Democratic apologists.

Why has labeling people replaced debate on this issue?

[Douglas Carpenter]

34. ..