Being skeptical of government doesn't make me a "Paulbot". Fuck anyone who thinks it does.

[cherokeeprogressive]

Blankets with smallpox
Wounded Knee
The Trail of Tears
Testing LSD on military personnel without their knowledge
The Bay of Pigs
The Gulf of Tonkin
Chicago 1968
Kent State
Watergate
ABSCAM
mkultra
Cointelpro

Jesus the list goes on and on and on and on... Yeah, forgive me if I'm not first in line to take the Loyalty Pledge because a Democrat I voted for is in the White House. That's not how it works. Well, I guess it DOES work that way for some, but not for me.

I'm not a "Paulbot" though just because my distrust of most things government goes back to my pre-teen days.

[backscatter712]

1. The shit-flingers are going to have to come up with a new epithet soon.

"Racist" backfired, and "Paulbot" has already gone stale.

[cherokeeprogressive]

2. True that. n/t

[HumansAndResources]

5. Its the Terrorism, Now ...

... just ask the Nancy Pelosi / Lindsey Graham team, when they aren't pretending to be on opposite teams, and laughing at those who buy the wedge-issue bull used to form the hallucination - as they work together to END the US Middle Class AND the Bill of Rights.

To Your List, add:
The CIA's "Operation Gladio" - blowing up train-stations in Belgum, and generally massacring innocents across Italy and the rest of Western Europe to "false-flag blame" any political party not run by the Transnationals.
Also, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff's proposal to Kennedy called "Operation Northwoods" - to attack American passenger planes, navy ships, and blow-up shopping malls to blame on Castro. Kennedy / McNamara said, "no."

On that tangent, show any daylight between actual foreign-policy decisions - not speeches - between Rethugs and Democrypts with the exception of the last Kennedy year? And we saw what happened when daylight appeared, in that case (though he had plenty of other enemies). The fact that the Council on Foreign Relations has staffed key positions in the State Dept for both 'parties' for the last 100 years - an organization formed and run by Rockefeller, and having directors like Cheney, and harboring war-criminals like Kissinger and Brzezenski - might have something to do with it. Also consider US press-leaders participation in that organization (CNN's Amanpour, long-list-here), and their scripted coverage of US-wars, CIA-supported death-squads, and other forms of US-state-sponsored terrorism.

[loudsue]

17. Very well stated.

Unfortunately, the list could go on and on.

[HiPointDem]

18. Gladio & Northwoods are two that demonstrate how government (or elements within government)

operate to manipulate the population. Governments (or elements within them) do indeed 'murder their own populations' & that includes western governments.

The Bologna massacre (Italian: Strage di Bologna) was a terrorist bombing of the Central Station at Bologna, Italy, on the morning of 2 August 1980, which killed 85 people and wounded more than 200. The attack has been attributed to the neo-fascist terrorist organization, Nuclei Armati Rivoluzionari, and connected to Operation Gladio, which has been investigated by the EU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladio_in_Italy

[reusrename]

38. Shadow government seems to be the appropriate terminology.

Most of the convicted Iran/Contra criminals, you know, the ones who were actually convicted on conspiracy charges, are at large and continuing on their mission of terror. They continue to have their hands on the levers of power, even after their trials and convictions.

This transcends administrations.

People should be aware.

I think the new pejorative is CT'er, and I hope it will not be effective.

We do know that the Iran/Contra thing really did happen. Not some wacky theory at all, but more outlandish than much of the stuff going on now that folks refuse to believe in.

[DeltaLitProf]

87. Operation Northwoods was turned down flat

. . . by a Democratic president.

[HiPointDem]

91. that it was even conceived and presented to the president is enough to prove my point.

[tblue]

48. And this:

From "Fahrenheit 911."

[cheapdate]

82. When she was the Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi was relentlessly demonized

by the US Chamber of Commerce, the American Enterprise Institute, et. al., and their allies in the Republican Party. As Speaker and as a member of Congress, Nancy Peolsi fought for the American middle class, and especially for American manufacturing jobs.

For example, in 2010 Pelosi and Democrats in the House introduced the Buses, Rail Cars, Ferryboats: Make it in America Act of 2010 (H.R. 5791).

The purpose of the bill is described well in it's summary statement:

"To amend title 49, United States Code, to eliminate waivers to Buy America to strengthen the requirement that steel, iron, and manufactured goods used in a capital project are produced in the United States."

Here’s the U.S. Chamber of Commerce arguing that “offshoring isn't the cause of manufacturing job loss” and lobbying against the bill. At the end, they brag about how much money they’re spending on political campaigns.

http://www.uschamber.com/press/opeds/making-it-america

*****************************************

Another example of a bill introduced by the Pelosi and the Democrats is The American Jobs and Closing Tax Loopholes Act of 2010 (H.R. 4213). (signed into law July 22, 2010)

The bill stregnthens American industries and ends many tax loopholes that multinational corporations used to skirt U.S. tax law (see link below)

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=56411d05-f379-4cc4-993f-1d3e573d6077

Here’s the U.S. Chamber of Commerce arguing that the bill would “affect the competitiveness of American worldwide companies”

http://www.uschamber.com/issues/letters/2010/letter-opposing-hr-4213-american-jobs-and-closing-tax-loopholes-act-2010-1

Here’s the Chamber on a list of registered lobbyists against the bill:

http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/billsum.php?id=113886&lname=H.R.4213

**********************************************

I could continue to list many more such measures that Pelosi and the Democrats have pushed that seek to stop the hemorrhaging of American manufacturing jobs; the kinds of jobs that have been the foundation of American economic strength for generations -- for example the CURRENCY REFORM FOR FAIR TRADE ACT (HR 2378), which passed the House on September 28, 2010 but was blocked in the Senate by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and their Republican allies.

The point is that the US Chamber of Commerce, the American Enterprise Institute and their Republican allies in Congress fiercely resisted nearly all of these efforts. They spent millions of dollars, much of it from foreign sources, in vicious, negative political campaigns and multi-million dollar lobbying and advertising campaigns designed to vilify Pelosi and any other elected officials who support the kind of legislation that closes tax loopholes exploited by corporations who set up offshore subsidiaries, or legislation that seeks to restore the competitive advantage of manufacturing and production on American soil by American workers.

Your idea that Nancy Pelosi is "teamed" up with Republicans to "work together to END the US Middle Class" is awfully hard to square with her actual record, as I see it.

[DeltaLitProf]

86. You just got TOLD.

See cheapdate's comment below. Mercy.

[BehindTheCurtain76]

14. ditto

So tired of the gullible wanna be's that think they are on the winning team so that means every thing is just fine. History shows these are the people that are manipulated to achieve an ends. And now with all the sock-puppet technology we dont even know who is who so I say trust your instincts, think for yourself and question every thing.

[MannyGoldstein]

3. Did the voices coming from your fillings tell you that?

That list you posted? Never happened.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

12. Neither did that whole "WMD" thing.

[nashville_brook]

69. nor Tuskegee

[kas125]

70. Nor the military releases of zinc cadmium sulfide in St. Louis

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/researcher-to-discuss-military-testing-in-st-louis-in-the/article_c7be3f5c-c2df-5cc4-91eb-70386fb37250.html

[DeltaLitProf]

88. So what is the conclusion based on these mistakes

. . . that require the exercise of government by US the voter? Do we just decide government is worthless and not to do anything that requires government action?

[kas125]

92. I don't know how we fix it, but pretending that these kinds of things didn't and cannot happen

doesn't help anything, and too many people refuse to believe they'd do those kinds of things. What I do know is that they are supposed to work for us, they're our representatives and our employees, not our kings. What they do to us, or do in our names, should not be secret.

[MNBrewer]

79. Evolution is a lie

and the earth is flat.

[grasswire]

4. I'll add to your list.

PROMIS

Echelon

[HardTimes99]

6. One more item: Operation Northwoods - nt

[DeltaLitProf]

90. Never implemented

Shut down by McNamara and JFK.

I refer you to James Bamford's Body of Secrets, pp. 80-ff.

Conclusion: don't condemn all government. Work to elect people who'll shut corrupt and inhumane practices down.

[alp227]

7. Ron Paul has too many kooky positions for us progressives.

Such as supporting the Evangelical Agenda and this whole "End the Fed" hyper-individualist shtick.

[HardTimes99]

8. Forgot Gemstone (from Watergate days) - nt

[patrice]

9. If you're not necessarily a Paulbot, though there are such things, then neither are Obama supporters

necessarily Obamabots, though there are such things.

If it's not possible for there to be free-thinking Obama supporters, then neither is it possible for their to be free-thinking anti-government advocates.

.....................................

Personally, I wonder how much of what you listed isn't the result of culture and that includes government. I think that a significant minority of "us" never got over its Tory LOVE affair with royalty and, then, there's another significant minority who NEEEEEEEEEEEEED authority, wearing ANY political label that works, as long as it reduces anxiety and increases gratification.

[ErikJ]

10. Who said "government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem"?

Ronald Reagan.

[HiPointDem]

19. as he led the government & expanded it.

[ErikJ]

21. And put the corporations in control

of the government which is corporatocracy/fascism.

[gtar100]

27. Yes, that was such bullshit when he said it and it's still bullshit today.

Government is a tool in which problems can be solved. Like anything with great power it is abused and perverted by those who take selfish advantage of it. But that doesn't mean government is bad, just the people who are in it. And Reagan was one of the worst. A deceiver of the highest order.

Our distrust should go straight to the characters who make it suck so bad (Scalia comes to mind), not the mission and purpose of having a government, particularly a Democratic one. We mustn't forget that only a government so organized can limit the strong arm of corporations who would be just fine with us sending our kids off to swim in sewage.

[Enthusiast]

28. Government in the hands of the corporations is a major problem. It has destroyed democracy.

Government as the founders intended is not a problem.

Reagan sucked, still sucks to this day. There is nothing admirable about Reagan.

[pampango]

31. But he was right in this statement - just for the wrong reason? His line is one that the republican

base still uses today. Room for some bipartisanship on this one?

[Enthusiast]

32. No, he was wrong. Dead wrong.

His various memes set the stage for massive deregulation and decades long supply-side economics that have destroyed the nation.

We are supposed to have "representative government". We don't. We don't largely because the nation embraced Reagan's trickle down and deregulation meme.

Not only that. His administration carried on a huge treasonous black ops called Iran-Contra. These Reagan Administration abuses set the stage for Bush v Gore, 911 and the Iraq War. This also paved the way for the NSA abuses we have today. Frog, slowly heated water.

Just because the "right" has given us bad government this is no excuse to give up on government. Either you will have government by and for the people or you will have corporate rule.

[ErikJ]

47. NSA Privatization-70% of NSA budget now privatized

The spies are not NSA anymore-its the corporations.

[Union Scribe]

11. skepticism is healthy.

Government has the capacity to use its power to do amazing good, but too often it misuses that power. They're like one of those shopping carts you get with bad alignment--you have to keep pulling on it to keep it moving ahead properly.

[jberryhill]

52. Skepticism IS healthy

Paranoia is a disease.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

13. Forgot "Northwoods".

[Iliyah]

15. 1965 VRA

Loving vs. USA

[Th1onein]

16. DITTO, my friend. Ditto.

[99th_Monkey]

20. It's sad (and somewhat revealing) that you even have to post this.

But you do. I know, from my own experiences here ever since the Snowden thing
broke into the news cycle. It's totally like "if Obama does it, then it's legal, ethical,
and the American Way".

POTUS deserves a reasonable amount of respect, just for holding that office, which
was always a challenge with Bush, but now its a very different kind of challenge
with Obama, because I fucking VOTED for Obama, TWICE.

[Cha]

22. Fuck paulbot Snowden.

[cherokeeprogressive]

40. Who said anything about Snowden?

[Romulus Quirinus]

56. No, fuck you.

Read the article before commenting!

[Romulus Quirinus]

73. How do I know that you aren't actually a dog?

Or a Lyndon LaRouche supporter?

Do you not see how sterile these lines of thought are?

Supposing that you're a human being who likes poor people and not living in a police state, why should anyone put up with assholes like the parent poster diveboming threads they don't like with swear-filled non-sequiturs? Does that help? There are easier ways for said poster to find catharsis.

[Recursion]

23. Maybe government should be made much smaller? Sounds like it's a problem

rather than a solution?

[KauaiK]

24. You forgot the shameful overthrow of Hawaii....

[Fire Walk With Me]

25. Google "Pruit Igoe spraying". n/t

[Newest Reality]

26. Libertarians may not like being called on this, but ....

they are ECONOMIC ANARCHISTS.

The word "anarchist" has become so maligned and disjointed that it is like a grenade that blows up whenever it is used. Yet, make no mistake whatsoever about it, the current, (not older) version of Libertarians is nothing more than an anarchistic movement that focuses on the economy.

While I am and support anarchists, we really don't want to have our understanding of the terminology and meaning subverted by people who would like to pretend they are in line with the ordinary, everyday capitalistic and conservative Republican way of thinking in a way that gets most people to overlook the underlying content of their real goals and motivations.

There are deeper and more meaningful forms of Anarchism that are not based on such covert means and that is why there reacted to in such ways as to make them seem detrimental to the current system of politics and economics. And what would you expect, then? Where do you think the potential transformation and transition of all that is wrong with your own culture-at-large would come from -- the Status Quo? Yeah, right.

It is going to come, potentially, from what you were told, over and over again, what was considered by your owners and controllers to be most dangerous and subversive to their agenda, not yours. So, inspiration can then flow from what the controllers and deciders and those who prospered most had decided you should not think, belief or even know.

[MNBrewer]

80. As there are various types of Democrats

i.e., ranging all the way those who would have been considered a moderate Republican 25 years ago to actual liberals, there are various types of Libertarians.

So fuck the idea that anyone with any type of viewpoint that happens to correspond to some type of Libertarian viewpoint is beyond the pale as far as the Democratic Party is concerned. We certainly make room for pseudo-Republicans in this party, why not pseudo-Libertarians?

[Fumesucker]

29. You could add the Tuskegee experiment and J Edgar wiretapping MLK Jr

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment

The Tuskegee syphilis experiment[1] was an infamous clinical study conducted between 1932 and 1972 by the U.S. Public Health Service to study the natural progression of untreated syphilis in rural African American men who thought they were receiving free health care from the U.S. government

[hobbit709]

30. +1 million.

[ileus]

33. Nope you must have 100% faith and support when we're in control.

and they're never going to get coordinated enough to ever have control again...

[bcbink]

34. more than skeptical

government for the people, we pay for it and are not allowed the information our government used to establish policies and procedures. We don't even know many procedures. There was supposed to be some light let in.
Getting weary.

[randome]

35. Being skeptical without evidence to support your skepticism is counterproductive.

The NSA is not tapping your phone. How do I know that? I don't. But I have no reason to think they are doing so.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[rhett o rick]

42. "The NSA is not tapping your phone." Wow, what loyal certainty. Ah to be so absolutely positive.

Skepticism is always healthy. And after you have the evidence, it's no longer skepticism. More and more people that know more than you about it, like Ms. Plame and Mr. Wilson say there is a lot of reason to be skeptical.

Skepticism is an attribute of the open minded while denial is an attribute of the conservative.

[randome]

50. Did you skp this part of my post? "How do I know that? I don't."

Doesn't sound like 'certainty' to me. Skepticism is indeed a good character attribute. But you can be skeptical about anything and everything in the entire world so most of us limit our skepticism to those instances where it appears there is malfeasance.

This entire 'The NSA is tapping our phones!" is based on what Snowden said without any evidence to back up his contention. Not only is the evidence lacking, he has proven himself to be without honor or character himself by giving away national security secrets to other countries, threatening to release the names of agents and running away to hide in Moscow after stating he wasn't trying to hide from justice when he was in Hong Kong.

I will have no problem believing the NSA taps everyone's phones. If someone shows me the evidence of them doing that. I will never give in to irrational fear. Never.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[rhett o rick]

61. "If someone shows me the evidence". Have you looked at all on the internets?

How many whistle-blowers does it take to get you skeptical?

26 Senators are skeptical. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/28/senators-james-clapper-nsa-data-collection

[randome]

65. Um, I don't think anyone on DU is against more transparency and less secrecy.

But did Snowden need to throw away his life, give secrets to other countries, put the lives of agents at risk to get that conversation started then run and hide after telling us he wasn't trying to hide from justice?

If that's the only thing that occurred to this poor fool, then I say let Russia keep him.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[rhett o rick]

75. "give secrets to other countries, put the lives of agents at risk " Where do you get this? nm

[randome]

81. Well, the Hong Kong media say Snowden gave them information.

And Snowden says he has detailed lists of agent info that he threatens to release.

Of course he's full of shit just like all his other paranoid claims but still...

I guess you'll say that the HK media can't be trusted and just because Snowden says something doesn't make it true?

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

63. That ignorance is blinding

Eh?

[geek tragedy]

36. "Distrust of most things government" is the Goldwater position

If one distrusts government in general, why give it expanded taxing and regulatory powers over citizens?

Why trust it with your money, your financial information, your medical care, regulating with whom you can bank, employment, labor. Why let the government tell you what you can do to your own house, etc.

[JoePhilly]

43. YUP ... we better cut taxes, shrink government, and drown it in a bath tub.

If we believe that the government can in no way be trusted, that is.

The GOP would absolutely love for everyone to adopt this mind set of total government distrust.

[flamingdem]

55. +1

[Jamaal510]

66. You've just won this thread.

[Romulus Quirinus]

77. I think everyone here, OP especially, understands the difference between the kind of people

who would be in charge of a National Heathcare System and the Peace Corps, and the kind of people who inhabit more action oriented parts of the government, and the differing values and responsibilities of those organizations.

Why make that kind of insinuation that you did, other than to stir up anger?

Example: Say, why do all Philly fans hate Santa Claus and throw batteries at people?

[baldguy]

37. Right. Obama is responsable for all of that & is a evil fascist.

[LondonReign2]

58. The OP didn't say Obama was responsible. Nor imply it

But that's how you took it, again. Of course.

[Waiting For Everyman]

39. As broken as government is right now, a whole lot of skepticism is warranted.

It's very, very broken and corrupt. But that can be fixed, and it has to be, because government IS necessary.

Nobody should be calling you a Paulbot though, that is absurd. If I see that on a jury, I'll be voting to hide it, in a heart beat.

[Recursion]

41. Well, health records are much more sensitive than logs of whom I called

This doesn't look good for our agenda, does it?

[WilliamPitt]

44. The replies to this thread are either excellent satire

or I'm going to throw up.

[randome]

45. You can multitask.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Orsino]

46. Only letting skepticism turn to apathy or sabotage would be Paul-botting. n/t

[Karmadillo]

49. Stop it. No independent thought. Think what we tell you or don't think at all.

[graham4anything]

51. Who is calling you those names??? Link please.

[great white snark]

72. I've seen others called "Paulbots" and judging from their posting history deservingly so.

Not just because they dissent.

[LeftishBrit]

53. We should be sceptical of all organizations

And most governments are incompetent at best, oppressive at worst.

The problem is with those who think that governments are the ONLY organizations that one should distrust, and that if you just put everything in the hands of the holy free market, everything will go fine.

Also I think that in some (many?) cases saying that 'the government shouldn't be trusted to help people' is really an excuse for saying 'people - or at least poor people - should never be helped'. That is certainly the attitude of the Pauls.

I am extremely sceptical about my own government, and with good reason; but I would not go from there to 'abolish public services, and make everyone fend for themselves'.

[Romulus Quirinus]

57. Are you responding to the right OP

Because no one said anything about abolishing social services.

[freshwest]

89. You got it. Thanks.

[janlyn]

54. Don't forget

it's also to some, un-american to distrust the government. I love my country but, I have what I consider to be a normal amount of mistrust for our government.

It doesn't make me a paulbot, it doesn't make me un-american, it is plainly stated my right to question my government and their actions. Exactly when did it stop being government for the people and by the people? Longer ago than most people realize.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

59. Forced sterilization of poor (primarily black) women in North Carolina...

can be added to the list.

No Money For Forced Sterilization Victims In North Carolina
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/27/no-money-for-forced-steri_n_1630417.html

Skepticism is healthy. And I can't think of much in this world I care less about than being called names by the childish Crap Bloggers who have overrun this site since 2008. In their honor:

[Hydra]

60. OMG, it's the same damn people, and they even posted in this thread

With the same stuff!!

The stuff the gov't is floating is unbelievable these days. We're supposed to trust them 100% or we are with the tea party??

The Ministry of Truth is getting lazy. Either that, or they think we're not paying attention.

[bvar22]

62. None of them really "think".

They are just thoughtlessly repeating the Talking Points Du Jour.
It doesn't have to make any sense.
They can claim to be pro-sense or reality-based,
but they aren't.
It is a mistake to take any of them literally.

[nashville_brook]

67. +1

[Douglas Carpenter]

64. indeed, fuck them

[LanternWaste]

68. Paulbots on one side, Authoritarians on the other.

Paulbots on one side, Authoritarians on the other. Many other terms and phrases that have zero meaning other than to trivialize or minimize the target rather than any actual premise being made.

Neither really means anything other than a lack of actual substantive points on the part of the speaker. "Goebbels would be proud", "if you don't like seeing it, change the channel"... the list of meaningless phrases is almost as large as the number of people petulant enough (or thoughtless enough) to use them.

[OnionPatch]

74. Yep.

I support the good things Obama does and speak out against the not so good things. Simple as that. I don't automatically support everything a Democrat does, nor am I automatically against everything a conservative believes (tho I've never had so much in common with one to actually vote for them.) As for Paul: even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[villager]

76. And Operation Paperclip...

...where we brought Nazis into our government...

[backscatter712]

83. Venn ze rockets go up, who cares verr zey come down.

Zat's not my department said Wernher von Braun.

[b.durruti]

78. Fuck ANYONE who says it does. ~nt~

[DeltaLitProf]

84. The founding fathers themselves counselled a skepticism of government.

But as a skeptic, we also need to be skeptical of those calling themselves skeptics. Many of them do not draw their conclusions about government efforts based on real evidence but based on heresay, mistakes that don't represent the whole effort, etc. If you are skeptical, be skeptical even of your own side.

[cherokeeprogressive]

85. There isn't a whole lot I take at "face value" but I want to be clear on one thing...

There are parts to the government puzzle we could never do without. In my mind, there are two governments: Politicians, and Civil Servants. Almost to a person, Politicians are in it for purely egotistical and self-aggrandizing reasons. The Civil Servants (where the rubber meets the road) are by and large good people with good hearts. The problem as I see it is that the Politicians direct the Civil Servants and those Civil Servants are pretty much between a rock and a hard place when it comes to doing what they're told and keeping their jobs.