Look, We all hate Zimmerman's actions

[DemocratSinceBirth]

But we need to gird ourselves for the possibility that he walks. I have watched the testimony and the commentary fairly closely and it looks like a uphill slope for the prosecution.

To most of us it seems like a open and shut case; a armed guy follows an unarmed kid, and ends up getting in a fight that ends with the unarmed kid dead.

But trials aren't about a rational and deliberate search for the truth. I'm not saying our adversarial system of justice isn't the best system of justice in the world; especially if you have the dough, but it isn't about a rational and deliberate search for the truth.

I have seen it all in civil trials. The defense throws up enough red herrings, straw men, and a plethora of barriers to to the truth until the jury is confused and incapable of rendering what most folks see as the proper verdict when the trial began.

I pray I am wrong. Because if Zimmerman walks , the inferences on why he did will rock this nation.

[Cooley Hurd]

1. I wonder if there will be a repeat of the Rodney King trial aftermath if he is found innocent?

The possibility is there. Couple this with what SCOTUS did regarding Section 4b of the Voting Rights Act, and African-Americans would have every right to be pissed off.

[bravenak]

4. I hope there is no riot.

I was in L.A. During the 92 riots and it was the worst experience. The innocent always suffer the most.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. I actually lived in that general area for most of my life and know some of the antagonists.

I don't expect much civil unrest.

But it still sucks if he walks.

[bravenak]

11. Especially since he was acting improperly. If he gets off, he better hide out until things cool off.

We will need to review our procedures in schools about stranger danger. Trayvon followed the guidelines of what to do if your in danger of abduction or are being followed. I did not work. What will we say to our teenagers? Just do what the stranger tells you? It's sad.
http://childparenting.about.com/od/healthsafety/a/Protecting-Against-Child-Predators-Beyond-Stranger-Danger_2.htm

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. That's what I am so fearful of

What does a parent tell a kid?

Running can almost be as dangerous as standing your ground.

[bravenak]

20. Can't give the bullet proof vests. They're illegal in some places.

Run, you look suspicious and get shot. Confront the person, get shot. Hide, they find you , you get shot. Fight back, get shot. A kid just ain't safe in a gated community anymore.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Bad cases make bad law

We can hope that this tragic confluence of circumstances is not duplicated or at the least is very, very rare...

[csziggy]

80. I think when Martin ran, it stirred up Zimmerman's hunting instincts

Zimmerman did not get out of his car until Martin ran, he mumbled "He ran>' more than once after he got out of his car - AFTER he acknowledged the request from the dispatcher not to follow. I think Martin attempts to evade Zimmerman caused a predator response and with his little gun Zimmerman felt invincible.

I don't think it would have mattered what Martin did, Zimmerman would have kept hunting until he found Martin or the cops arrived. At that point, Martin would have still been a "suspicious character" and HE would have likely been arrested. It happened to Dr. Henry Gates on his own front porch FFS - a black teenager with no ID whose parent was incommunicado at the time would have been provide no chances to prove HIS innocence. It doesn't seem as though the residents of that neighborhood know each other very well so they certainly would not know this kid who was just visiting.

No wonder kids today cultivate a veneer of hardness - they have to in order to survive!

[Jenoch]

52. Running is a good solution

to a situation in the dark when confronted with someone with a handgun. The likelyhood of getting shot is pretty small, of course depending on the distance. It isn't like the movies.

[RebelOne]

65. There will be guaranteed.

I lived in Miami at a time in the '80s when a white cop killed a black man and the cop walked free. The blacks rioted in the streets of Miami.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. Sanford is a small town.Miami is a big city

[Ninga]

2. I am waiting to the end, there is much more to be said. It may be premature to come to any

conclusions.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. I am hoping and praying for the best and preparing for the worst.

[Tippy]

3. And I will say it again..."Zimmerman is the product of the NRA"

[burnodo]

5. Oh I don't think a Zim conviction is a given

I think its very possible he'll get off scott free

[grok]

6. for reference, the law in florida

this pretty comprehensive explanation done by "leatherman", a law professor in favor of a guilty verdict. I may not agree with his conclusions, but his explanation of the law is VERY clear....

http://frederickleatherman.com/2012/07/12/zimmerman-jury-instructions-for-second-degree-murder-and-self-defense/

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. If you read the law literally it's crazy

And I have seen several former Florida prosecutors and judges explain it like that.

[BillyRibs]

8. We all hate Zimmerman's actions!?

No, "WE" don't.

[WinkyDink]

10. Not sure what you mean. That you personally don't, or that you've read others here who don't?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. My editorial "We" includes all "right thinking people"

.

[WinkyDink]

19. I was referring to the post above me, not the OP, with which I agree.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. Was he saying he didn't hate Zimmerman's actions or that others don't?

.

[BillyRibs]

94. Others,

Co-Workers who all have me fuming in Quiet solitude.

[GoneOffShore]

86. WTF? What are you saying, Sunny Boy Slim?

Or is this just a drive by post?

[BillyRibs]

95. Co-Workers who agree with Zimmerman,

and are pissing me off to no end.

[femmocrat]

13. I just started paying attention this week.... Questions:

Why are there only 6 jurors? I thought a jury was 12 people.

Suppose the jury deadlocks. Would there be a new trial?

Thank you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. If the jury deadlocks or hangs , a mistrial is called, and the DA can refile his or her case

The 6 juror requirement is a Florida thing.

[Travis_0004]

61. Flordia will use 6 member juries unless it is a capital case, then they use 12.

If the Jury Deadlocks, then the DA has the choice to start a new trial.

If the Jury vote is 5-1, with 5 voting guilty, you can guarantee there will be a new trial.

If they voted 5-1, with 5 voting innocent, then the odds of a new trial would be a lot lower.

[B2G]

15. I hate the fact that he was killed

The jury is still out on how that happened.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. We know that Zimmerman was packing and Trayvon wasn't.

Unless a person believes that Trayvon just started to beat Zimmerman to death for shit and kicks, in defiance of logic and all the evidence, I don't see how that person can absolve Zimmerman of all culpability.

[B2G]

21. WE know Zimmerman was armed NOW

But did Martin know it that night? My understanding is the gun was in a waisteband holster.

It certainly doesn't stretch the imagination much for Martin to attack first not knowing Zimmerman had a gun.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. For the sake of argument I'm willing to stipulate Trayvon was a tough kid.

But even "tough kids" don't go around beating up random strangers. What's Trayvon's motive? If he was with his friends you could argue he was trying to impress them but he was alone.

[B2G]

25. Tough kids DO go around beating up on random strangers

Do you read the news at all?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Yeah, I have read about packs of youths beating up homeless people to impress one another

But can you link all these news accounts of youths acting alone beating up strangers.

[Skittles]

78. Trayvon's "motive" was he was being stalked by a gun-toting vigilante

Trayvon feared for his life, and with good reason

[Mariana]

82. This was not a "random stranger".

This was the man who'd been following Trayvon in his car, and then chasing Trayvon on foot when Trayvon tried to get away from him. How the hell do you get "random stranger" from that?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

87. Please read carefully.I was rebutting the assertion Trayvon started the fight.

I was responding to another poster. I certainly couldn't find a motive.

[brush]

33. Come on.

Martin's hands had no bruises or evidence of being in a fight. There also was no dna from zimmerman on him. Both of these facts came out in the trial.

I thought you were following this?

If Martin was "raining down blows" on zimmerman as one witness (who had to recant his lie) said, Martin's hands and knuckles would have shown severe bruising from such a fight.

IMHO, zimmerman made that up to cover his ass after killing the kid.

[dkf]

27. This is where Jeantel's testimony hurt the prosecution.

She established that Martin was irritated at being followed. From that point who started the physical confrontation? There is definite room to believe Martin did so because he was annoyed this creepy ass cracker was following him. It's hard to make a judgment beyond a reasonable doubt that either of them threw the first punch.

[brush]

36. How do you explain this

Martin's hands had no bruises or evidence of being in a fight. There also was no dna from zimmerman on him. Both of these facts came out in the trial.

If you ever been in a fist fight you know your hands and knuckles get bruised, scarred and maybe even broken.

Doesn't seem like Martin threw any punches. If so, where are the bruises and zimmerman's dna?

[B2G]

37. I thought he had a cut on his finger n/t

[brush]

45. He had a slight bruise on one little finger

You must know this. I'm not the only one who has heard the testimony that his hands were virtually unmarked, showing no evidence of being in a fight.

And also there was no zimmerman dna on his hands, yet zimmy allegedly had the bloody nose and head. Blood is dna.

There was none on Martin's body.

Someone is lying.

[B2G]

46. Has that been testified to?

I didn't realize the forensic evidence was presented yet...and I've been listening all week. Guess I missed the coroner's testimony. Will go try to find it.

[csziggy]

81. Martin had an abrasion that was 2 centimetes long - about 3/4"

Indicated on the autopsy diagram on the left hand ring finger as abr 1/4" x 1/8". The right hand had a scar 1" x 1/3" - scar indicates a healed area so that was not fresh. Martin did not have other scars which might indicate a habit of getting into fights. I had more scars on my body by the time I was 17 and I was a girl who never got in a fight!

See page 7 of the autopsy, complete version here: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/trayvon.martin.autopsy.pdf

[dkf]

39. Leaks of the autopsy show broken skin on Martin's knuckles.

"WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles."

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/

We will get the forensic testimony next week. I think that will clear up a lot.

[brush]

47. I read the link

It said Martin had a bruise on one knuckle, not "knuckles", that could be consistent with defending himself. You'd certainly get more than a bruise on one knuckle if you were raining down blows onto someone's head and mouth and nose.

If you ever been in a fist fight you know your hands get battered, maybe cut, from hitting teeth and bone and causing blood to flow.

Yet there was no zimmerman dna on his hands, yet zimmy allegedly had the bloody nose and head. Blood is dna.

There was none on Martin's body.

Someone is lying.

[dpibel]

68. Small abrasion on one knuckle

Why go to a secondary source that misquotes the Medical Examiner when you could correctly quote the ME?

It's easy to find. I bet you've even read it.

It doesn't help your credibility much to pluralize the singular on a point like this.

[csziggy]

85. The REAL autopsy does not show "broken skin on Martin's knuckles"

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/trayvon.martin.autopsy.pdf

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

96. the sickening thing is not only will Tubby George walk, he'll be rewarded

with D-list celeb status, FOX guest spots, speaking gigs and a reality show.

He'll be the Mark Fuhrman of the 2010s.

[Jenoch]

53. I wonder if the lack of DNA

is similar to the lack of finger prints on a gun used in a crime. There have been cases where the public cries out that there were no fingerprints on the gun, so how could he have used the gun to murder someone? Well, the lack of DNA and bruising could be explained away as well, I suppose. The 'broken' nose (was it broken?) could have happened with a forearm, and Zimmerman claimed that Martin was slamming his head on the sidewalk. None of those actions would necessarily cause bruising to Martin nor would it necessarily transfer DNA.

[Little Star]

49. That remark didn't sound like Trayvon was irritated or annoyed to me. It sounded...

more like he was creeped-out and maybe afraid.

[dkf]

51. If you are afraid don't you go straight home?

That is what confuses me.

[Just Saying]

55. He thought he got away and was still talking on the phone.

I do that- finish my call before entering a house.

I don't think he was terrified at that point anyway. And Rachel testified that he said he didn't need to run because he was almost home.

[dkf]

56. This happened on his doorstep then?

[Just Saying]

57. He had gone between the buildings

And the place he was staying was ahead of him. It's what Rachel testified he said.

[dkf]

64. I actually wish we could get ahold of those NSA records.

And that phone recording.

[Little Star]

59. I heard someone say that because he was sitting a younger person with...

no one else at home perhaps he didn't want to lead Zimmerman to the residence.

[csziggy]

84. I think he did. I measured the distances and worked on a timeline

It's in another thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3129154

I think Martin went home, but Zimmerman showed up at the end of the block, just past where he was going, and Martin went the other way to avoid a confrontation. The timing works and that accounts for any slack time between the last time Zimmerman saw Martin and when Zimmerman got off the phone with Sanford PD.

I've also read speculation that Martin did not have a key to his father's fiance's house and that her son didn't hear if Martin knocked or rang a doorbell. The kid did not hear the gunshots or any of the sirens for the disturbance at the other end of the block.

[dkf]

22. It was an open and shut guilty if you don't understand the law in Florida.

When you do read the law it is apparent Zimmerman has a case but to point that out makes you a Zimmerman defender and racist.

To be bashed and reviled for a serious analysis of the facts before you is messed up.

[Chan790]

26. I do understand the law in FL...

and it should be an open-and-shut case.

George Zimmerman is textbook for who is supposed to be convicted under the statute as written. It's his defense attorney's job to muddle that and he's doing a good job...but it doesn't change that unless the jury seriously fucks up Zimmerman is dead-to-rights guilty.

[dkf]

28. If you believe that then you should believe he will be convicted.

I think that is questionable.

[Chan790]

30. You are correct.

I do believe he will be ultimately convicted. I respect that you're warier of that outcome.

[dkf]

35. His injuries make self defense plausible to me.

I suspect an all woman jury will work in Zimmerman's favor as men are more likely to think the injuries were minor.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. That's a good point

Or they could think what if Trayvon was their son?

I have seen a lot of discussion of Zimmerman's injuries. At the end of the day the consensus was it's subjective as to whether Zimmerman thought those injuries were consistent with impending death or great bodily harm.

Interestingly Marcia Clark didn't think they were.

[dkf]

43. Marcia Clark has probably seen a lot of deaths so she is more jaded.

For women with no history of violence the idea of being on the ground being punched is appalling and scary. At least it is to me.

I guess it then depends on how well you can see yourself as the mother of Trayvon or as Zimmerman being pummeled.

But the instructions will be to view Zimmerman, not Martin's family.

[dpibel]

69. As usual, wrong standard

The jury will be asked to evaluate Zimmerman's actions not from his point of view. Not from Martin's families point of view.

The standard, as we've discussed before is what a reasonable person would do under those circumstances.

[dkf]

70. And I am a reasonable person. I think other reasonable people could agree

That he was in fear of his life or severe bodily harm.

[riverwalker]

92. this is where Z's MMA training is relevant

Mixed Martial Arts 3 hour sessions, 3 times a week. Z would be used to being hit. I think Z tried to tackle Trayvon, or grabbed his shirt, did something aggressive. I want to hear more about Trayvons earpiece that fell out while talking to Racheal after he said "why are you following me". Was it a wireless one? One of those wrap around ones, or a tiny ear bud? Was it damaged or bent?
She said she heard him being hit, then wrestling in grass sounds.

[davidn3600]

38. With murder, the state must prove Zimmerman acted with a "depraved mind."

It's an additional burden on the prosecution that must be met.

So far, the prosecution has not met this burden. They have offered a theory that may very well be correct....but they must prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. They have not.

The only thing that can be proven is that Zimmerman and Martin got into a altercation. Zimmerman somehow got bloodied up, and a gun went off. As of right now, the only proof that can be realistically met is potentially involuntary manslaughter. Not murder. In fact it would not surprise me if the judge lowers the charge before the jury gets the case. Even if she doesn't change the charges, the prosecution would be completely stupid to not include manslaughter as an option for the jury. If they put all their chips in on 2nd degree murder....another Casey Anthony situation is likely.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Manslaghter is a lesser included offense

It gives the jury an out in the way of a compromise verdict.

[NaturalHigh]

90. Actually, I thought the state declined to charge manslaughter.

As I understand it, manslaughter is not automatically included as a lesser included offense. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, nor am I familiar with Florida law. I do know that to get a conviction for second degree murder, the state has to prove intent to commit murder.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

91. I believe it's up to the judge

Mr. Weiner suggested that the prosecutor might have “overcharged” to retain the option, should she feel a murder conviction is slipping away, of asking the judge to instruct the jury to consider lesser offenses, like manslaughter.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/us/zimmerman-faces-second-degree-murder-charge-in-florida.html?_r=2&

[brush]

29. If he walks . . .

he'll be taken care of. Nature kind of has a way of correcting wrongs.

It could be just a car accident, or maybe, irony or all ironies, someone with firearm will take it upon themselves to right an egregious wrong.

One way or another he'll get his.

[B2G]

31. Zimmerman acting like a vigilante - bad

Vigilantes taking out Zimmerman - good.

Got it.

[brush]

40. It's karma

Nothing new. Recent examples of karma correcting wrongs was the defeat of all the "legitimate rape" repugs in the 2012 election. Stuff happens and then there are corrections

I only gave an imaginary scenario of how zimmerman might get his comeuppance from an armed person. I'm not advocating that but it could be nature's way of taking him out to balance things.

It could be he slips and falls during a storm on wet concrete and hits his head. That would be another bit of irony.

We see what happens to him if he walks. I don't think he will though.

[RebelOne]

48. And if he walks, he better change his name and go into hiding for the rest of his life.

The blacks will be rioting in the streets of Miami as they did when a white cop who killed a black man was found innocent. I know as I lived in Miami at the time.

[qazplm]

50. wish it were true but it isnt

bad people can and do go on to have absolutely wonderful lives while good people have lives full of pain and suffering.

I don't believe in Karma at all. Great idea, wish it were true (then again, do any of us normal humans really want karma to be true?), but it isn't. Too many counter-examples.

[brush]

71. Good example

The recent repug candidates talking about "legitimate rape." They lost.

[Caroline-Vivienne]

41. Hopefully the Florida Law Will Be Modified

If Zimmerman gets off...the law needs to be adjusted.

That would be the ONLY saving grace in this nightmare scenario.

Just make sure it never happens again.

[alarimer]

54. If he walks, it will be because he killed a black kid.

He would never have gotten away with killing a white kid.

[Savannahmann]

58. I've been folling it only sparingly.

First, let me say, I don't agree with this expected outcome. But I do think this is going to be the outcome. Second, let me point out that I have never once posted a single pro gun thread. I am personally absolutely opposed to private ownership of guns.

That being understood, let me explain why I won't be surprised if Zimmerman walks. Because from what I've heard/seen, the Prosecution is doing a fairly weak job so far. Remember it is the DA's job to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant did the action indicated.

Right now, what we are sure of from following the trial, is that there was an altercation, we don't know who started it, who through the first punch, but we know that an altercation of some sort started. Witnesses are a little conflicted, but most of them seem to think that Travon was on top during part/most of this altercation. Self Defense means that the guy shooting was in fear of his life or limb.

At this point, all the defense has to do is show those pictures of Zimmerman's injuries, and put three medical experts on the stand. Number one, a brain injury expert who can testify that the nature of brain injuries is such that having your head banged on the ground is enough to cause temporary or permanent injury or death. Then a doctor to testify about the nature of skull fractures to testify on how easy it is to have your skull broken. From that a small sidetrack into neck injuries, and the second expert is off the stand and the point is made. Final expert, a Psychiatrist who can testify to the fear of such injuries and death that exists instinctively in all of us, and how any reasonable person would feel such fear, and naturally react.

Then all the Prosecution is left with is the image that Zimmerman was out looking for a chance to stop/harass, or even kill a young black man. But by now, the Jury knows the sequence of events, as much as they can be reconstructed.

The Prosecution hasn't shown motive, testimony, emails, text messages, or other documentation to show that Zimmerman was ala Bernie Geotz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz out looking for a chance to take on some thugs.

Remember, it is the prosecutions job to prove a case beyond that Reasonable Doubt standard. Not a shadow of a doubt, but right now, while I disagree, I am experienced enough to know that we haven't assuaged those doubts in the mind of the jury. That is before the Defense puts up their case, and if they don't use those three experts, or something along those lines, I'll be very surprised.

The way to do this is to spend a few minutes imagining you were in the place of the Defense attorney, what kind of case would you put on to prove your assertions? What kind of case would you put on to prove it if you were the Prosecutor, not the exact legal arguments, but the general approach? First, I'd establish motive. I'd use more than the words spoken in a single evening, but the closely examined events of a lifetime. I'd interview his friends, his associates, his coworkers. I'd examine and be able to deduce hidden patterns without news stories that he liked on facebook. Did he only like stories that were Whites defending themselves from Blacks? Did he buy/rent/prefer to watch movies like Die Hard? Was he a big fan of 24 where one guy breaks all the rules in the world to save civilization?

I'd establish motive as an absolute, or as close as an absolute as possible. I'd then talk to people who have been out blasting away at targets with Zimmerman. I'd see if he had delusions of heroics, what kind of targets did he shoot at. What kind of conversations did they have? Were they about how to shoot in a hostage or rescue situation? The self appointed expert of hostage rescue?

You see what I'm saying? The Prosecution hasn't done this so far as I've noticed. I've been too busy to watch the trial blow by blow, but they are starting with the events of that night. That doesn't prove motive. It doesn't show the frame of mind that is alleged to have been the driving force behind Zimmerman's actions.

The Prosecution is trying to make Trayvon a victim, a real person who's life ended, and that event alone demands justice. From the little I've read, the Prosecution has not gone the way I would, which is to point Zimmerman as a nut who saw himself as the next generation of lone heros who ends a horrific crime spree like in Hollywood.

At most, right now, I think we can expect nothing more than the least of the available charges, a variation on Manslaughter, and a very short jail sentence.

OK, start flaming that all of this doesn't matter and they are only pale excuses to allow me to hope for the racist verdict or whatever.

[Ninga]

66. I am astounded at all of the discussions that predict an out come.

The prosecution is far from finished.

There is much much more to come.

I would guess that what we have seen so far is about 1/3 of the entire prosecution/defense.

The prosecution called a defense witness this week because they wanted him out of the way and done, and have strategically listed witnesses as a method to build their case.

There is much much more to come.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

73. Predicting outcomes in big trials is fun

Let me preface my remarks by saying I hope he fries but I'm not confident of that outcome.

[Beacool]

60. The prosecution overcharged him.

I don't think that the prosecution will be able to prove that Zimmerman that night went on patrol intending to kill someone. The burden of proof for second degree murder is much higher than for manslaughter. I don't know if they'll reach that threshold. Their star witness was a wreck and there's a neighbor who seemed quite credible who testified that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman. Although, I don't think that Zimmerman will walk completely.

My personal opinion is that Zimmerman instigated the confrontation by following Trayvon around. At some point Trayvon must have had enough of it and confronted Zimmerman. A fight ensued which ended with Zimmerman on the ground and and Trayvon on top of him, punching him. At which point Zimmerman shot and killed him. A senseless death that didn't have to happen.

[Vattel]

62. The problem is that the prosecution lacks sufficient evidence to prove guilt.

I hope Zimmerman walks because that is the correct outcome given the evidence. If Martin assaulted Zimmerman just because Zimmerman had been following him, and the struggle that ensued happened roughly like Zimmerman claims it did, then the killing, though tragic, was justifiable homicide under the law. You and I don't know whether the killing was justifiable homicide, but the key point is that the prosecution so far has been unable to show that it was not, and I doubt that they will do so in the remaining part of the trial. So I hope that Zimmerman walks.

[MichiganVote]

63. Z did not magically get into a "fight". He provoked that situation.

And I think he still believes he was/is right which means if he walks, another and another and another person is unsafe.

[GeorgeGist]

72. Then WTF are you saying?

I'm not saying our adversarial system of justice isn't the best system of justice in the world; especially if you have the dough, but it isn't about a rational and deliberate search for the truth.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

75. As flawed as our criminal justice system is

As flawed as our criminal justice system is it's adversarial nature puts a check on the awesome power of the state; especially if you have the dough or you can find a sympathetic but great attorney who will defend you on a sliding scale. They are rare but they do exist.

[adric mutelovic]

74. In short, if the guy I'm against walks free, DU was right and the court system is rotten

Shocker.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. I don't always agree with DU but when I do they are invariably right.

.

[Hoyt]

79. Once again, I'm more concerned about the gun loving bigots if Zimmie gets his due.

Minorities won't riot, although I would not blame them. They'll just see it as more proof a bigot can shoot a kid and get away with it.

The bigots will buy more guns, push for laxer gun laws, etc.

[BainsBane]

88. That's going to happen regardless

It's their constant state of being.

[BainsBane]

83. Can we just wait for the trial to finish?

Please?!!!!!!! That's directed not just toward the OP but everyone insistent on litigating every last aspect of the case here on DU. Let the judicial process proceed and see what happens.

[stranger81]

89. IMHO, Zimmerman is definitely guilty, and

And based on what I've seen of the trial so far, he's almost certainly going to walk. Jury selected and locale of the trial make this almost a slam dunk for the defense, without even lifting a finger.

It's sick, it's sad, it's infuriating. And if and when violence breaks out as a result of the verdict, I can't say I won't sympathize and understand.

This is frankly the kind of shit that has me on the edge of abandoning a 15-year legal career. Jury verdicts almost invariably, in my experience, reflect more about the preexisting biases of the jurors (who were almost certainly picked to sit on the jury because one side or the other is hoping to exploit those biases, not eliminate them from the panel) than they do any of the evidence actually presented in court.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

93. I agree with the totality of what you're saying

But I think some folks are a bit rough on the locale. I lived within thirty miles of Sanford for most of my life and sometimes as close as a mile from it. It's no more or less racist than the rest of America.

The problem is the state's best witness, Trayvon, is dead and that allows the defense all kinds of leeway in presenting their case.

[Captain Stern]

97. In my opinion, a lot of folks are thinking this trial is about something that it's not about.

This trial is about whether or not Zimmerman's shooting of Martin falls into the category of self-defense under the current laws. That's all it's about. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's not about whether or not there should be more stringent gun control or not, regardless of how strongly one feels about the topic of gun control. If Zimmerman is found guilty it's not a "win" for gun control advocates, and if he's found not guilty, it's not a "win" for the people that are opposing gun control.

It's not about whether or not "stand your ground laws" are good or bad. This trial has nothing to do with that.

It's not about racism in America. There is racism in our country, and most people know it. If Zimmerman is found guilty, there will still be racism in our country. If Zimmerman is found not guilty, there will still be racism in our country.

It just is what it is. When it's all said and done with, six jurors will consider what they've heard and seen, and make a decision (or refuse to make a decision, I guess). They will decide whether or not Zimmerman shot Martin in self defense. That's all they will be deciding. All the other issues will remain the same.