Now that we've all hurled monkey shizz at each and other, exactly what changes do we want?

[struggle4progress]

8 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Require a warrant to grab emails over 180 days old
	0 (0%)
	Repeal the Patriot Act
	5 (63%)
	Either make the FISA court more transparent or hand their functions to our ordinary courts
	2 (25%)
	Recreate institutional rivalries between our various spy agencies so none can become too powerful
	0 (0%)
	Scrap the damn National Security Letters
	0 (0%)
	Abolish the Department of Homeland Security
	0 (0%)
	Reduce the allowed storage time for unused telecomm records
	0 (0%)
	De-privatize national security work
	1 (13%)
	Require a warrant to collect telecomm metadata
	0 (0%)
	Summer's here, and the time is right for fighting in the street, boys
	0 (0%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
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[99Forever]

1. Which part of this are you having difficulty understanding?:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[woo me with science]

2. Thank you. nt

[jazzimov]

3. You mean like this?

A communication identified as a domestic communication will be destroyed upon recognition

That's from one of the documents that Snowden "leaked".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jun/20/exhibit-b-nsa-procedures-document

[struggle4progress]

4. Which part of the evolution of the current set-up do you not understand? It's built from statutes

and court decisions stretching over decades, compounded by the lawless behavior of the Bush administration after 9/11 and some frantic political compromises during Bush's second terms in an effort to restore the rule of law

The Warren Court would, I think, have interpreted the Fourth Amendment in the way you want, but sadly it has been gone for decades now, and the tenor of the Federal courts has changed in the intervening years due to the disproportionate appointment of Republican judges

Therefore, any changes we want are unlikely to come from the courts: they must originate Congress

[emulatorloo]

14. Yes!

And a congress full of Tea Baggers aren't gonna do jack shit.

We have lots of work ahead of us.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

5. ^^^ THIS ^^^

Edward Snowden is a modern day Paul Revere with a thumb drive full of the news that Tyranny is coming!

[KittyWampus]

17. since you insist on posting that photo in your signature can you at least have the decency

to shrink it.

[yodermon]

6. "unreasonable" & "probable cause"

are pandora's box.

[Tx4obama]

7. ... meta-data collected by a 3rd party (tele-coms) is not protected by the 4th amendment. n/t

[struggle4progress]

8. But the Supreme Court decision, that held that, was not discussing dragnet records collection:

it contemplated the collection of phone records for one individual

I think the idea that the Supreme Court decision could be used to justify collection of huge quantities of phone records came from the Bush administration lawyers, whose theories of a unitary executive don't sit particularly well with me

[The Straight Story]

9. Ya still need a warrant (I am reading over one right now from May 1, 2013 for a yahoo email)

http://tinyurl.com/lwa6n3h


Edited to add - original order is older, this an update on it.

[The Straight Story]

10. Side note - this order was originally sealed

Is no longer (and an interesting read....)

[Parable Arable]

11. Like practically everyone here I voted for the repelling of the Patriot Act.......

That being said, I was soooooo tempted to vote for the option that quoted the philosopher Sir M. Phillip Jagger

[99Forever]

23. Says you.

And you are wrong.

[treestar]

13. How many times do you have to be told that it is not enough

to underpin any legal argument that it's unconstitutional? People doing that would come up with more and argue why the data would be covered by the Fourth Amendment based on precedent.

[jberryhill]

15. The Founder's Telecommunications Were Assumed Insecure

I posted a thread yesterday about the codes and cipher's Benjamin Franklin used in his "diplomatic work" in France.

All of them used encryption, such as it was at the time, because there was NO expectation that communications could not be intercepted and read. There was no US Post Office (and again, hat tip to Franklin) and getting correspondence around was a chaotic affair.

That is why they formed secret correspondence societies.

The people who wrote those words of the Fourth Amendment did not want their cipher keys taken from their persons, their houses, papers and effects. If they wanted to transmit something important to someone, they encrypted.

[struggle4progress]

19. Thanks. That was an interesting post. Probably none of those methods would be secure

by today's standards, of course, and the photos suggest the users made a number of mistakes that would help anyone attempting to crack their codes, if the person knew what they were doing

[jberryhill]

21. Standards change

It was state of the art back then, and it is most certainly true that Jefferson never intended anyone to publish his diplomatic dispatches either.

There are methods which are state of the art by today's standards and can be securely executed.

The Internet wasn't built to do many of the things which I am surprised to find people expect of it. I mean, good golly, don't people know who runs the root servers and thus automatically gets a load of traffic analysis data?

[struggle4progress]

22. Jefferson seems to have invented a clever, convenient, and rather secure cyptographic device

If I understand correctly, the disks all had different permutations of the alphabet upon them, and their order could be rearranged on the spindle. Then one spelled out the plaintext and read any other row as the ciphertext. To decipher, one needed the disks in the same order, but simply spelled out the ciphertext and then just rotated the device, looking for the row that made sense



Of course, one had to protect the device itself physically, and had to have some agreement about disk order, but if one swapped disks regularly and avoided long messages without changing disk order, this is pretty secure

[treestar]

12. A little of all of that

especially the dancing in the streets!

Pre-Patriot Act we were probably OK. It was Bush incompetence not making anything of the pdf, not the not having enough intelligence.

[mick063]

16. Abolish Dept. of Homeland Security

That has always been, and will always be, number one on my list with respect to our new found police state.

Ponder why they need 1.6 billion bullets.

Ask yourself what they could possibly need 1.6 billion bullets for.

All the other stuff is negligible compared to 1.6 billion bullets.

1.6 billion bullets are where the "rubber meets the road".

You can put four shots into the chest of each and every American with 1.6 billion bullets.

The final totalitarian coup does not happen without 1.6 billion bullets.


Now that the Federal government is supplying every police department with a bounty of tazers, we can witness autistic kids, 90 year old men, and arguing couples at the kitchen table being shocked into passive submission.

We can watch our "Occupy style mobs", otherwise known as peaceful protesters demonstrating their constitutional right to assemble and speak, get federally funded into oblivion. That is one form of federal "aid" that the GOP Governors will never deny "on principal". Now that we know that any form of assembly, regardless of the issue, will be labeled as an "Occupy mob" by the Rick Perrys of the world. He can unleash the federally funded, federally coordinated, militarized, friendly local police on any form of dissent.

[cherokeeprogressive]

18. DISBAND the FISA Court and write legislation pertinent to TODAY'S technology.

[moondust]

20. Pack the FISA court with civil libertarians.

Plus some of the above.