Who did more damage to the security of this country: George W Bush or Edward J Snowden?

[kentuck]

In an interview yesterday, former PResident George W Bush said that Snowden had damaged our security that he had put in place to protect our country. Also, he said he had protected our civil liberties.

Who did more damage to our nation?

[treestar]

1. So far, it's looking like George W. Bush

but for entirely different reasons and from an entirely different perspective. GWB was elected or selected to an office that gave him more power than Snowden ever had.

[In_The_Wind]

2. Bush

[Pholus]

3. Obviously Snowden. We'd just be obliviously moving along if not for him.

Just inspired an OP. Thanks!

[think]

4. Snowden's illegal war, illegal spying on US, war crimes, and destruction of the economy

are treasonous...

[kentuck]

6. And he thinks the Constitution is "just a piece of paper"...

Clearly an enemy of the United States.

[think]

10. While Bush warned us that they hate our freedom and spoke truth to power to expose the excesses

of a secret religion gone rouge....

[Arkansas Granny]

5. GWB. Without him and the Patriot Act, the material that Snowden

had access to wouldn't be collected.

[Cleita]

26. Best reason and reply here. n/t

[baldguy]

7. Without W, there would be no Snowden.

He'd be the resident computer geek in a medium-sized cube farm.

[think]

9. Exactly. In light of this shouldn't we be working to curtial the abuses started under Bush?

That is what is the main issue in this heated discussion. The illegal spy program made legal by the Patriot Act is proving to be a tool not used as much for finding terrorists and rather more to spy on EVERYONE.

spying on everyone by private contractors run by the likes of the Carlyle group via Booz Allen. One may trust Obama and the even the govt. But does anyone especially in light of Snowden trust the members of the Carlyle Group to have all this data on us?

I'm sorry but the last people I would trust are ex govt officials with ties to the CIA who are making huge profits by building and maintaining the spy apparatus used to SPY on US.....

[kentuck]

11. You make a good point.

A very, very good point.

[baldguy]

15. Metadata isn't privileged info. Collecting it is not spying

any more than a cop sitting on the side of the road noting the make, model & color of the cars going by is spying on drivers.

Under Bush, they wanted to be able to listen in to listen in to anyone's conversation. Obama stopped that, and the warrant Snowden leaked proves that the NSA does not do it.

If you think having private contractors involved in the NSA's activities, fine. Let's talk about that. If you think the USA PATRIOT Act and FISA go too far, fine. Let's talk about that.

Unfortunately, nearly 100% of the pro-Snowden threads about this have been in the vein of "Snowden is Jesus Christ, and Glenn Greenwald is His profit" (the Carlyle Group isn't the only one) followed shortly by "Obama is Hitler", rather than addressing the real issues this story raises, or even acknowledging the very real damage Snowden has done to America.

[think]

16. Secret law is unAmerican. Gag orders hide the truth. Laws can be unethical & unconstitutional

Private contractors with access to everything we do in collusion with the US Govt for a profit is fascism and undermines the very documents written to protect the freedoms and civil liberties of Americans.

And there must be a very specific reason we are even having this discussion but I'll neglect to mention it for obvious reasons.

I'll start there.

[baldguy]

17. So you think that "Gentlemen should not read other gentlemen's mail"?

That sort of thinking is what allowed Pearl Harbor to happen. And no, that's not hyperbole.

And President Obama is not a Nazi, not matter how much you may wish it to be true.

[think]

19. Gag orders on whistleblowers prevent people learning how gentleman abuse the shit out of the law

When the fuck did I call Obama a Nazi?

[LondonReign2]

37. It's his schtick

Baldguy takes ANY issue you have with government policy as a pesonal insult to Obama.

[think]

41. So I've seen. Yet still I'm sure the OP & I agree on many other issues

but for some reason we cannot agree on the need to reign in the spying by the NSA and the private contractors.

According the NSA whistle blower Russ Tice, who exposed Bush's illegal wiretaps; the NSA spied even on Barack Obama:

#at=90

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/tag/russ-tice/

As well as all the supreme court justices, ruling embers of congress, journalists,......

[think]

21. Your insinuation that I am calling Obama a nazi is offensive and way off base /nt

[baldguy]

23. I apologize. You did not specify that Obama was a Nazi.

Because saying he's a fascist who repeatedly violates the Constitution & has sold our govt to the corporatocracy is absolutely nothing like that!

[great white snark]

24. Maybe not but you sure were blitzkrieged with bullshit.

[think]

36. The user name is fitting /nt

[think]

34. I refer to a system that has been in place for way before Obama

If YOU want to pull Obama into this that is your problem not mine.

I am pointing out the Carlyle Group's collusion with parts of the govt specifically and you twist it into a false equivalency of me saying "Obama is nazi!" Thank you.

I'd prefer you see it as I meant it though.

So if you can grasp what I am saying:

If you want to claim that I am saying there are people who were previously in power in the US Govt; along with others still working in the in the US govt but not beholden to Obama; and others with vast amounts of wealth who just have a ton of fucking money all of whom are in collusion to make profits from and have undue influence and control of the direction of this country; so be it.

If you have no trouble with private corporations working with the NSA to collect , store, and monitor your electronic life so be it also. I prefer safeguards and not paying people I feel undermine American Liberty & Freedom to further their desires, wealth, and power.

[Arctic Dave]

39. This goes way beyond "a cop taking down car makes/models"

This is a government tracking your every move, your computer habits, your telephone calls, what you buy, tracking your car.

Yes, that is a textbook definition of spying.

[baldguy]

42. Links?

Hard facts only, please. And current, too. Nothing from 10 yrs ago, no conjecture, no opinion pieces. And it goes without saying, nothing from the unreliable Glenn Greenwald.

[HardTimes99]

25. "used to SPY on US" and our taxes pay for it!!! Now how Orwellian is that? I wish

you would consider turning this reply into an OP of its own and building upon its themes (and maybe fleshing them out with a few more specifics).

In the meantime, consider your response firmly recommended by me! My compliments.

[ceonupe]

8. Barack Obama administration

Using Obama as the face but not really the man running the policies (thats mostly clinton and bush hold overs)

[gcomeau]

29. That's just incredibly delusional. -eom

[deutsey]

12. I don't know if we'll ever recover from Bush

He drove the train off the cliff...anything that hits us now is like debris falling on the burning wreckage.

[kentuck]

13. Excellent analogy.

"....debris falling on the burning wreckage"

[Tippy]

14. Agreed

[HardTimes99]

28. The only way we could have recovered from Bush would have been to place his

administration under criminal investigation for war crimes and crimes against humanity. When that did not happen, it was clear to me that your burning train would continue its flaming descent into the gorge of history. Oh well, America was a nice idea while she lasted. Sorry that Abe Lincoln gave his life to preserve the Union and that so many sacrificed to rescue it from totalitarianism in the 30s and 40s.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

18. As much as I'm not a fan of Snowden

the damage (in general) that George W. Bush did to the country was pretty severe, starting with the fact that his legitimacy even to occupy the office was immediately suspect for a number of reasons.

FWIW however, I don't think that what Snowden did was great either, particularly in terms of taking it upon himself to decide what kind of information to share with other countries about our clandestine activities.

[HardTimes99]

20. Kentuck, why are these kinds of questions raised on relatively obscure

bulletin boards like DU and not in the MSM?

I wish you had been conducting that interview yesterday.

I actually think, in a weird sort of way, that Snowden has aided our nation by showing the world that at least a few Americans are not afraid to 'throw it all away' for the cause of liberty.

I hope your thread gets massive exposure and discussion today. It deserves it.

[GeorgeGist]

22. Ronald Reagan.

[gcomeau]

27. Please... Bush has no parallel.

Snowden is a contemptible traitorous little weasel, but hard to top the damage done by the gross incompetent wielding the office of the presidency for 8 years.

[graham4anything]

30. the answer if President Obama gets torn down is easily JEB BUSH/RAND PAUL in 2016.

there are only two choices

[dionysus]

31. two worngs don't make a right, even if * wrong was on a much larger scale.

[on point]

32. Bush hands down. Snowmen on the other hand helped the country

Just because the PTB don't like being found out via Snowden doesn't mean it hurts the country. If it reduces their corrupt power it helps the country

[SamKnause]

33. Damage

George W. Bush.

War criminal.
Having the law rewritten to allow the U.S. military to torture.
Guantanamo.
Crimes against humanity.
Ignoring the numerous warnings about 9/11.


President Obama is continuing the policies of Bush.

[whatchamacallit]

35. Strange...

Even the foaming Snowden haters admit Bush did infinitely more damage. Yet, the calls for his arrest, prosecution and punishment are nonexistent. Maybe it's because he does photo ops with Obama... Welcome to the Twilight Zone of post 9/11 America.

[CakeGrrl]

38. Bush. But Snowden still needs to go to jail.

See what I did there?

One criminal not being as bad as another does not exonerate the lesser one.

[OilemFirchen]

40. Which did more damage to reasoned discourse in this country:

False analogies or begging the questions?

[EdwardSmith74]

43. I trust that's a rhetorical question. The answer is obvious.