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Renaissance Man

(669 posts)
Tue Jul 2, 2013, 11:37 AM Jul 2013

Self-Defense and the "More Force Than Necessary Standard" - Zimmerman Trial

Being an attorney, and having read the statutes on self-defense, the most critical piece of evidence that will be considered in this case will be the "more force than necessary" standard applicable when a defendant asserts self-defense.

Second degree murder, under the Florida statutes, is as follows:

"Second degree murder occurs when a person is killed, without any premeditated design, by an act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind showing no regard for human life."

There is a lot of hand wringing that is going on about this trial on DU, but in considering Zimmerman's self-defense theory, the jury will most likely use the following in coming to their conclusion on whether to convict George Zimmerman for second degree murder:

the injuries he sustained;

how severe those injuries were;

whether or not the injuries he sustained from whatever alleged scuffle that happened are of the type that would place him in reasonable fear for his life;

whether or not he was in imminent fear of death or great bodily injury;

and whether the force that he used was necessary to combat the force used in killing Trayvon Martin (the gun).

Thus, like force with like force. This is the reason that Zimmerman's defense attorneys are attempting to assert that the sidewalk was a "deadly weapon."

Here's where the defense theory is weak:

George Zimmerman's injuries were not severe (at least not severe enough to where he felt the need to obtain medical attention for them on the night this occurred).

There was no evidence (blood or DNA evidence) obtained from the sidewalk or from Trayvon Martin's hands/fingers showing that there was any contact made between Trayvon Martin's hands and George Zimmerman's face.

Notwithstanding any screams (which has already been ruled out as unreliable both from evidence excluded and the voice recognition expert that testified yesterday) heard by witnesses near where the incident occurred, there is nothing to suggest that George Zimmerman was in imminent fear of death or great bodily injury. Remember, it's inconclusive as to who was screaming on the audio (even though the screaming stops after the gunshot).

It's very likely that Trayvon Martin (if he, indeed, was on top of George Zimmerman) attempted to hold Zimmerman's arms down because he noticed that Zimmerman had a gun, and that during this scuffle, Zimmerman may have actually banged his head on the concrete (himself, without any force applied from Martin) during the struggle and then momentarily was able to get to his holster and grab his gun and kill Trayvon.

This is where the "like force with force" self-defense theory comes into play. Zimmerman's defense theory is somewhat shallow. Unless the defense can somehow connect non-existent force (because there is no DNA evidence either from the sidewalk or from Trayvon Martin's fingers showing that he applied any force to George Zimmerman's head to bang it on the concrete) and justify the use of deadly force in combating it, Zimmerman's self-defense theory is weak.

This is how I view this trial. That's where I'm at right now on this, but there are more witnesses to call.

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Self-Defense and the "More Force Than Necessary Standard" - Zimmerman Trial (Original Post) Renaissance Man Jul 2013 OP
When has "reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury" ever required a person to Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #1
Did you read the typewritten text? Renaissance Man Jul 2013 #3
Yes, I did read the body of your OP. That's the part I found puzzling. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2013 #12
Z has also said that he thought TM had something in his hand Adsos Letter Jul 2013 #2
Being hit with a brick? Renaissance Man Jul 2013 #5
I didn't say I believed him (I don't) Adsos Letter Jul 2013 #7
What if he feared that TM was going after his gun? dkf Jul 2013 #4
That's not the story on which he bases his defense theory. Renaissance Man Jul 2013 #6
Is that defined in the opening statement? dkf Jul 2013 #15
no martin DNA on the gun noiretextatique Jul 2013 #13
How does Florida's "stand your ground" statute affect this? Geoff R. Casavant Jul 2013 #8
This message was self-deleted by its author Renaissance Man Jul 2013 #9
Following does not mean attacking though. WHo intiated contact and why would jmg257 Jul 2013 #11
I think this would be the sections: jmg257 Jul 2013 #10
it is very weak noiretextatique Jul 2013 #14
What was Trayvon going to do? Hit him over the head with an iced tea bottle... EdwardSmith74 Jul 2013 #16
Yes, but who started it? Nine Jul 2013 #17

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
1. When has "reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury" ever required a person to
Tue Jul 2, 2013, 11:40 AM
Jul 2013

first be severely injured before taking action to defend themselves? That makes no sense.

Renaissance Man

(669 posts)
3. Did you read the typewritten text?
Tue Jul 2, 2013, 11:46 AM
Jul 2013

Did you read the typewritten text? I wrote "being in imminent fear of death or great bodily injury," not that someone has to be severly injuired before taking action to defend themselves.

Reading is fundamental.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
12. Yes, I did read the body of your OP. That's the part I found puzzling.
Tue Jul 2, 2013, 01:06 PM
Jul 2013
There is a lot of hand wringing that is going on about this trial on DU, but in considering Zimmerman's self-defense theory, the jury will most likely use the following in coming to their conclusion on whether to convict George Zimmerman for second degree murder:

(1) the injuries he sustained;

(2) how severe those injuries were;

(3) whether or not the injuries he sustained from whatever alleged scuffle that happened are of the type that would place him in reasonable fear for his life;

(4) whether or not he was in imminent fear of death or great bodily injury;

(5) and whether the force that he used was necessary to combat the force used in killing Trayvon Martin (the gun).


(numbering added)

Criteria 1, 2, 3, and 5 are non-existent with regards to the statute and are actually nullified by point 4. No person need be injured or assess their degree of injury in order to be in a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury and I defy you to find a FL statute that says as much.


Here's where the defense theory is weak:

George Zimmerman's injuries were not severe (at least not severe enough to where he felt the need to obtain medical attention for them on the night this occurred).


Irrelevant. Nothing in the statute requires a person to suffer near-deadly injuries in order to respond with deadly force.

There was no evidence (blood or DNA evidence) obtained from the sidewalk or from Trayvon Martin's hands/fingers showing that there was any contact made between Trayvon Martin's hands and George Zimmerman's face.


But he did sustain numerous injuries while Martin did not, per your own statement. You have to explain away those injuries as well as explain why Martin was not hurt if the defendant had no right to self-defense.

Notwithstanding any screams (which has already been ruled out as unreliable both from evidence excluded and the voice recognition expert that testified yesterday) heard by witnesses near where the incident occurred, there is nothing to suggest that George Zimmerman was in imminent fear of death or great bodily injury. Remember, it's inconclusive as to who was screaming on the audio (even though the screaming stops after the gunshot).


I presume, being a lawyer, you have a secretary handle your written correspondence because sentence structure is not your strong suit (Get it? "lawyer" "suit" I crack me up!). A rather odd state of affairs for someone whose entire career relies are the parsing of text and testimony.

The statute reads --

776.012?Use of force in defense of person.—

A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1)?He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2)?Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.


"Fear of imminent death," not "imminent fear of death."

Fear of being on the verge of death is the issue, not being on the verge fear of death. I assume it's simply hurried typing on your part, such is the interwebz.

But to the substance of the law, the only thing that applies is if he had a reasonable belief. As you know, all that requires is for reasonable people to agree they themselves would feel similarly in similar circumstances. For that the defense need only hold up the photos of the bloodied Zimmerman and say, "Would you fear for your life if you were taking this kind of ass-whipping?"

It's very likely that Trayvon Martin (if he, indeed, was on top of George Zimmerman) attempted to hold Zimmerman's arms down because he noticed that Zimmerman had a gun, and that during this scuffle, Zimmerman may have actually banged his head on the concrete (himself, without any force applied from Martin) during the struggle and then momentarily was able to get to his holster and grab his gun and kill Trayvon.


Irrelevant and speculative. A lawyer should know better. I'd be amazed if the prosecution would even come close to asserting such silliness in court.

This is where the "like force with force" self-defense theory comes into play. Zimmerman's defense theory is somewhat shallow. Unless the defense can somehow connect non-existent force (because there is no DNA evidence either from the sidewalk or from Trayvon Martin's fingers showing that he applied any force to George Zimmerman's head to bang it on the concrete) and justify the use of deadly force in combating it, Zimmerman's self-defense theory is weak.


"Like force with force" should not be in quotes because it does not exist in the law. You inserted it without basis.


Here are the instructions to be given to the jury WRT Zimmerman's claim of self-defense --

FLJI 3.6(f) JUSTIFIABLE USE OF DEADLY FORCE

State: Florida


Florida Standard Jury Instructions for Criminal Cases

FLJI 3.6(f) JUSTIFIABLE USE OF DEADLY FORCE


Because there are many defenses applicable to self-defense, give only those parts of the instructions that are required by the evidence.

Read in all cases.

An issue in this case is whether the defendant acted in self-defense. It is a defense to the offense with which (defendant) is charged if the [death of] [injury to] (victim) resulted from the justifiable use of deadly force.

Definition.

“Deadly force” means force likely to cause death or great bodily harm.

Give if applicable. § 782.02, Fla. Stat.

The use of deadly force is justifiable only if the defendant reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to [himself] [herself] while resisting:

1. another’s attempt to murder [him] [her], or

2. any attempt to commit (applicable felony) upon [him] [her], or

3. any attempt to commit (applicable felony) upon or in any dwelling, residence, or vehicle occupied by [him] [her].

Insert and define applicable felony that defendant alleges victim attempted to commit.

Give if applicable. §§ 776.012, 776.031, Fla. Stat.

A person is justified in using deadly force if [he] [she] reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent

1. imminent death or great bodily harm to [himself] [herself] or another, or

2. the imminent commission of (applicable forcible felony) against [himself] [herself] or another.

Insert and define applicable forcible felony that defendant alleges victim was about to commit. Forcible felonies are listed in § 776.08, Fla. Stat.

Aggressor. § 776.041, Fla. Stat.

However, the use of deadly force is not justifiable if you find:

Give only if the defendant is charged with an independent forcible felony. See Giles v. State, 831 So. 2d 1263 (Fla. 4th DCA 2002).

1. (Defendant) was attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of (applicable forcible felony); or

Define applicable forcible felony. Define after paragraph 2 if both paragraphs 1 and 2 are given. Forcible felonies are listed in § 776.08, Fla. Stat.

2. (Defendant) initially provoked the use of force against [himself] [herself], unless:

a. The force asserted toward the defendant was so great that [he] [she] reasonably believed that [he] [she] was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and had exhausted every reasonable means to escape the danger, other than using deadly force on (assailant).

b. In good faith, the defendant withdrew from physical contact with (assailant) and clearly indicated to (assailant) that [he] [she] wanted to withdraw and stop the use of deadly force, but (assailant) continued or resumed the use of force.

Force in resisting a law enforcement officer § 776.051(1), Fla. Stat.

A person is not justified in using force to resist an arrest by a law enforcement officer, or to resist a law enforcement officer who is engaged in the execution of a legal duty, if the law enforcement officer was acting in good faith and he or she is known, or reasonably appears, to be a law enforcement officer.

Give if applicable.

However, if an officer uses excessive force to make an arrest, then a person is justified in the use of reasonable force to defend [himself] [herself] (or another), but only to the extent [he] [she] reasonably believes such force is necessary. See § 776.012, Fla. Stat.; Ivester v. State, 398 So. 2d 926 (Fla. 1st DCA 1981); Jackson v. State, 463 So. 2d 372 (Fla. 5th DCA 1985).

In some instances, the instructions applicable to §§ 776.012, 776.031, or 776.041, Fla. Stat., may need to be given in connection with this instruction.

Read in all cases.

In deciding whether defendant was justified in the use of deadly force, you must judge [him] [her] by the circumstances by which [he] [she] was surrounded at the time the force was used. The danger facing the defendant need not have been actual; however, to justify the use of deadly force, the appearance of danger must have been so real that a reasonably cautious and prudent person under the same circumstances would have believed that the danger could be avoided only through the use of that force. Based upon appearances, the defendant must have actually believed that the danger was real.

No duty to retreat. § 776.013(3), Fla. Stat. See Novak v. State 974 So. 2d 520 (Fla. 4th DCA 2008) regarding unlawful activity. There is no duty to retreat where the defendant was not engaged in any unlawful activity other than the crime(s) for which the defendant asserts the justification.

If the defendant [was not engaged in an unlawful activity and] was attacked in any place where [he] [she] had a right to be, [he] [she] had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand [his] [her] ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if [he] [she] reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to [himself] [herself] [another] or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Define applicable forcible felony from list in § 776.08, Fla. Stat. that defendant alleges victim was about to commit.

Presumption of Fear (dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle). Give if applicable. § 776.013(2)(a)-(d), Fla. Stat.

If the defendant was in a(n)[dwelling] [residence] [occupied vehicle] where [he] [she] had a right to be, [he] [she] is presumed to have had a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm to [himself] [herself] [another] if (victim) had [unlawfully and forcibly entered] [removed or attempted to remove another person against that person’s will from] that [dwelling] [residence] [occupied vehicle] and the defendant had reason to believe that had occurred. The defendant had no duty to retreat under such circumstances.

Exceptions to Presumption of Fear. § 776.013(2)(a)-(d), Fla. Stat. Give as applicable.

The presumption of reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm does not apply if:

a. the person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in [or is a lawful resident of the [dwelling] [residence]] [the vehicle], such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or

b. the person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or

c. the person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the [dwelling] [residence] [occupied vehicle] to further an unlawful activity; or

d. the person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, who enters or attempts to enter a [dwelling] [residence] [vehicle] in the performance of [his] [her] official duties and the officer identified [himself] [herself] in accordance with any applicable law or the person using the force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.

If requested, give definition of “law enforcement officer” from § 943.10(14), Fla. Stat.,

§ 776.013(4), Fla. Stat.

A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter another’s [dwelling] [residence] [occupied vehicle] is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

Definitions. Give if applicable. § 776.013(5), Fla. Stat.

As used with regard to self defense:

“Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent or mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.

“Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.

“Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.

Prior threats. Give if applicable.

If you find that the defendant who because of threats or prior difficulties with (victim) had reasonable grounds to believe that [he] [she] was in danger of death or great bodily harm at the hands of (victim), then the defendant had the right to arm [himself] [herself]. However, the defendant cannot justify the use of deadly force, if after arming [himself] [herself] [he] [she] renewed [his] [her] difficulty with (victim) when [he] [she] could have avoided the difficulty, although as previously explained if the defendant was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where [he] [she] had a right to be, [he] [she] had no duty to retreat.

Reputation of victim. Give if applicable.

If you find that (victim) had a reputation of being a violent and dangerous person and that [his] [her] reputation was known to the defendant, you may consider this fact in determining whether the actions of the defendant were those of a reasonable person in dealing with an individual of that reputation.

Physical abilities. Read in all cases.

In considering the issue of self-defense, you may take into account the relative physical abilities and capacities of the defendant and (victim).

Read in all cases.

If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on the question of whether the defendant was justified in the use of deadly force, you should find the defendant not guilty.

However, if from the evidence you are convinced that the defendant was not justified in the use of deadly force, you should find [him] [her] guilty if all the elements of the charge have been proved.

Adsos Letter

(19,459 posts)
2. Z has also said that he thought TM had something in his hand
Tue Jul 2, 2013, 11:44 AM
Jul 2013

as he (TM) was punching him. On at least one occasion he said it felt like he was being hit with "a brick."

I don't know if the jury will buy any of that.

Renaissance Man

(669 posts)
5. Being hit with a brick?
Tue Jul 2, 2013, 11:53 AM
Jul 2013

"He said it felt like he was being hit with a brick."

This could have easily been Zimmerman banging his own head on the concrete, or Zimmerman lying (remember, he lied in his bail hearing). It's hard to punch someone on the face (and not leave DNA evidence) with blood streaming down their nose without actual contact with a fist or some other item hitting them. The only thing Trayvon was armed with was a can of tea, which was in his pocket.

This is why I don't buy the "being hit with a brick" story from Zimmerman.

Adsos Letter

(19,459 posts)
7. I didn't say I believed him (I don't)
Tue Jul 2, 2013, 12:01 PM
Jul 2013

but this is something Z has tried to include in his explanation to the cops, and I suppose it goes to his state of mind during the incident.

If the defense chooses to emphasize it, and if the jury believes it.

Renaissance Man

(669 posts)
6. That's not the story on which he bases his defense theory.
Tue Jul 2, 2013, 11:55 AM
Jul 2013

That's not the theory on which he bases his defense. He bases his defense theory on him being in imminent fear of death or great bodily injury (as a result of his head "being banged" on the concrete sidewalk).

Geoff R. Casavant

(2,381 posts)
8. How does Florida's "stand your ground" statute affect this?
Tue Jul 2, 2013, 12:03 PM
Jul 2013

You analysis of traditional self-defense is thorough, but does SYG affect it, or does it only affect the duty to retreat?

Response to Geoff R. Casavant (Reply #8)

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
10. I think this would be the sections:
Tue Jul 2, 2013, 12:17 PM
Jul 2013
776.012?Use of force in defense of person.
—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1)?He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony;
or
(2)?Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.



776.013?Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.
[(1)?A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a)?The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
...
(3)?A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Doesn't sound like there should be any "presumption of fear/death" (No dwelling involved), but certainly no duty to retreat.

Then there is this:


776.041?Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1)?Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2)?Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a)?Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;
or
(b)?In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
14. it is very weak
Tue Jul 2, 2013, 01:31 PM
Jul 2013

getting out of that car...with a gun...was an act of aggression. martin had every right to stand his ground against an armed attacker.

 

EdwardSmith74

(282 posts)
16. What was Trayvon going to do? Hit him over the head with an iced tea bottle...
Tue Jul 2, 2013, 01:51 PM
Jul 2013

... and shove Skittles up his nose? The poor kid was unarmed and assaulted by a racist vigilante. Besides, going for 2nd degree murder was wise. Even if he gets convicted of lesser charges he's still facing 25-life. That's one asshole who needs to be taken off the street for good.

Nine

(1,741 posts)
17. Yes, but who started it?
Tue Jul 2, 2013, 01:54 PM
Jul 2013

That, to me, is the important point. Did Martin bizarrely jump out of the bushes, as Zimmerman claims, and attack him as he was writing down a street name? If it didn't happen this way, then how did Zimmerman and Martin come into contact with each other? There are lots of innocent ways this could have happened but if Zimmerman's story is a lie, it's reasonable to assume that the truth does not put Zimmerman in a good light - for example, it's plausible that Zimmerman followed Martin, chased him, confronted him, and possibly threw the first punch but also possibly put Martin in fear for his life so that Martin was justified in throwing the first punch (and by first punch I mean generally the first aggressive move, whether shoving, bumping, tackling, or whatever).

I think of it this way. You could walk in on a scene where two people, A and B, are pointing guns at each other. At that point both A and B are reasonably in fear for their lives and perhaps both might seem justified in firing in self defense. But more information could put a different spin on things. If A and B were having an argument and A drew first, I don't think A should be able to claim self defense. If B is a cop doing his duty, I don't think A can claim self defense. If B is a homeowner who discovered A breaking into his home, I don't think A can claim self defense. Maybe SYG says you don't have a duty to retreat but common sense tells me you can't have "started it" either, otherwise anyone could pick a fight with someone and then pull a gun if the fight isn't going his way.

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