Fingerprints identify Michael Hastings body. Leaves more questions than answers.

[Cleita]

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/la-coroner-ids-body-journalist-michael-hastings

CORONER IDS BODY OF JOURNALIST MICHAEL HASTINGS

LOS ANGELES (AP) — The Los Angeles County coroner's office confirmed Thursday that a body removed from the burned wreckage of a crashed car was that of Michael Mahon Hastings, the journalist whose reporting on U.S. Army Gen. Stanley McChrystal ultimately led to the resignation of the U.S. commander of coalition forces in Afghanistan.

Coroner's Lt. Fred Corral said an autopsy was performed Wednesday but findings on the cause of death were deferred pending the results of toxicology tests expected in eight to 10 weeks.

Hastings, 33, was identified by matching fingerprints to prints the FBI had on file, Corral said.

Say what??? For those who haven't seen the photos of the fire and the shell of the burnt out car, it's hard to believe that the body had any identifiable fingerprints after that charring. Strange that the FBI was so cooperative in providing the prints being Michael had said they were after him, according to his friend Staff Sgt. Joseph Biggs.

For those who haven't seen the videos, go to this link:

http://www.mediaite.com/online/home-video-of-buzzfeed-reporter-michael-hastings-car-in-flames-surfaces/

[Warpy]

1. Considering what Mythbusters had to do

to get a car going off a cliff to explode into flame at the bottom, I'd strongly suggest the ME also search for explosives residue.

Well, unless he was driving a 70s vintage Pinto and backed up at high speed into whatever it was he is supposed to have crashed into.

[hack89]

2. Google "car fires after crashes" - it appears to be a common occurrence. nt

[Warpy]

4. Yes, but they're slow to get started and people escape

This car exploded into flames and was fully engulfed immediately. A Hollywood fire like that takes help.

[Nevernose]

5. Look up the pimps shooting each other on the LV Strip

The taxi that was rear ended practically exploded into flame, killing the occupants.

[Warpy]

7. This car wasn't rear ended.

I don't generally believe in conspiracy theories, either. In fact, I hate most of them. I simply find this just a little suspicious and hope they check all angles, including explosives residue.

Hastings was a big enough pain in a lot of butts that it's not completely out of the question, although it is far fetched.

[sabrina 1]

90. 'He generally drove like a grandma' according to those who knew him best. So what caused him

to act so out of character on that one night?

[Nevernose]

94. No idea.

I was just speaking to the exploding car thing: it does happen.

[hack89]

6. The first page of results shows three fatal crashes with fires.

perhaps you should take the time to look carefully at the Google results.

[Cleita]

18. If you want anybody to look at your proofs, you should post links.n/t

[hack89]

42. I posted exactly what you have to google

in the time you took to write your post you could have copied and pasted it right into Google.

[Cleita]

65. I don't have to google anything for you on your demand. Who do think you are, the Queen? n/t

[zappaman]

72. Not to mention that googling will show you are misinformed.

[Cleita]

74. Yes as you yourself have personally found out with your misinformation. n/t

[zappaman]

76. Such as?

Please show me where I have posted misinformation.

[Cleita]

77. OMG. I'm not going there. It's cocktail time. buh by.

[zappaman]

79. Cut and run again?!?!

This is getting to be a habit with you!
Enjoy the drink and maybe later you can come back and show me where I posted misinformation.

[Cleita]

81. Probably not. You know what you posted and I have other things I would

rather research right now.

[zappaman]

84. Good luck on the research!

And yes, I'm fully aware of what I have posted...and stand by it.

[Cleita]

86. Well, my research is on Bronze Age warfare, so I don't think you'd be interested. n/t

[zappaman]

87. Actually that does sound interesting!

[Cleita]

88. Well, maybe we can have a discussion on it some day, maybe in one of the other forums. n/t

[hack89]

89. Since I was not talking to you to start with

why don't you mind your business and stick your head back in the sand.

[NutmegYankee]

43. Not always.

Plenty of people die in auto fires, and they don't wait around just to burn to death. In this case, he was probably not conscious after hitting the tree. That's a brutal crash.

[zappaman]

3. "it's hard to believe..."

Apparently to you, everything about this accident is "hard to believe".

I look forward to hearing more about your theory concerning "Hollywood stuntmen".

[Cleita]

12. You just can't help throwing out your straw men there can you?

This post is about how one obtains fingerprints off of a charred corpse. If you have anything to contribute to that conversation, I'm all eyes.

[zappaman]

13. Sure. No strawmen here.

Google.

http://www.smn-news.com/st-maarten-st-martin-news/10582-bush-fire-victim-identified-through-fingerprints-foul-play-suspected-criminal-investigation-started-mos.html

http://www.kens5.com/news/Bexar-County-forensic-investigators-are-using-fingerprint-technology-to-identify-bodies-161627205.html

This link might be particularly helpful to you...
http://forensicj11.imascientist.org.uk/2011/06/if-a-finger-print-gets-burnt-can-you-still-identify-it


Many more cases if you care to look.
You act like this is some kind of impossibility.
It's not.

Let me know if you need any help understanding anything else about this case.
Happy to be of service!

ETA: post #11 is helpful as well!

[Cleita]

16. None of your sources are very good I'm afraid.

And the circumstances are quite different than this one.

[zappaman]

20. If you say so.

My apologies.
I did not know you were trained in fingerprint technology.

[Cleita]

27. You haven't been either, smart ass. n/t

[Buzz Clik]

9. Whoa!

[msanthrope]

10. Degloving would have produced workable prints, IMHO. nt

[Cleita]

28. For the uninitiated here, what is degloving? n/t

[msanthrope]

91. Try Google. nt

[Cleita]

92. Nope. If someone throws something out there they can either explain it or post a link.

My googling is strictly for my own research and pleasure.

[elehhhhna]

95. yep. prints are deep. and you only need one, really.

[REP]

11. If he had a California drivers license, it's likely his prints were in AFIS

A thumbprint is required for a CADL.

If one has been fingerprinted for any reason - such as to exclude a homeowners prints when investigating a break-in - those prints are likely in AFIS as well.

As for retrieving fingerprints from burned bodies, there's nothing new there. The fingers are removed and rehydrated, either by soaking and/or injecting with a solution. The process takes time, and once the fingers are sufficiently "plumped up," they are inked and rolled and then routine fingerprint analysis is done.

[Cleita]

14. Okay, that's interesting to know. But considering the intensity and duration of the fire, is it

not possible the flesh was burned off to the bone? I'm bringing this up because it's been brought up in other conversations about this elsewhere. I didn't put it in the original OP because the Coroner really hasn't told us just how badly burned the body was so it's just speculation at this point, but shouldn't be ignored.

[zappaman]

15. "Coroner really hasn't told us just how badly burned the body was...

...so it's just speculation at this point, but shouldn't be ignored."

I doubt the coroner is ignoring this.
Do you?

[Cleita]

17. No I don't and he's not telling us either, hence the hammering here.

We need answers and if they have them, they need to let the public know.

[zappaman]

19. I would prefer for them to finish their investigation...

...which they have already said will take a few weeks.
Don't you?

[Cleita]

23. No I don't. Not in this case. It's a good way to make it go away and publish the results

on the tenth page of the sports section of the local fish wrapper if at all in a couple of months. It probably won't even be mentioned on broadcast news. If there was a hit and a govt. agency was involved, you can be sure there will be an attempt to bury the truth and if people don't keep it at the top of the heap, it will be.

[zappaman]

29. Seems like you concluded your investigation then.

Thanks!

[Cleita]

34. You see, I haven't. That's the problem.

No one is putting out any information so we can lay it to rest. I would love to have all the facts and conclude my investigation. Since you live in LA, you could help me. You are close to the Police department and the Coroner's office. Make phone calls. Ask them to see the body. All you need is to file the freedom of information act forms to do that. You could find out if you weren't spending all your time on this message board stirring up shit with me.

[zappaman]

37. Why would I do ANY of that for an investigation that is ongoing?

[Cleita]

40. Because if you are the fountain of all knowledge and think you can swoop in and insult people

all the time who are trying to discuss something and maybe get to the truth, you have to do better. There was a Mexican guy in one of the videos named Jose who witnessed the whole thing. He can probably put a lot of this to rest, but he didn't speak a whole lot of English so the person interviewing him couldn't get any info. So if you speak Spanish or know anyone who does, go look for Jose and ask him exactly what he saw. He apparently works on that block so shouldn't be hard to find. Otherwise....

[zappaman]

44. Oh please

You have done nothing but insult me when I have corrected(numerous times) your misperception of the simple and most basic of facts of this case..like where it occurred.
Why should I let you or anyone else spread bullshit when the facts are easily obtainable?

You had no idea where it occurred yet you go on and on like you have some sort of knowledge.
Now you claim the body was too badly burned to provide fingerprints even though you have no idea how badly the body was burned.

If you want to come down and investigate this accident, since you can't wait for the authorities to finish theirs, come on down and I will show you where the accident happened...since you still seem unsure.

[Cleita]

50. Wow! Project much? n/t

[zappaman]

52. !!!

Thank you from going from "staggeringly mis-informed" to "downright funny"!

[DevonRex]

22. OMG. So you're spreading a RUMOR the flesh was burned completely off all his fingers

so it's not possible for prints to have been taken. AND that the FBI is lying about not investigating him since they had his prints. People are printed for LOTS of reasons. Journalists who work in war zones, for one, are printed so their bodies can be identified later if they're killed. Anyone who's been arrested has been printed. Those prints go into AFIS, which can be gotten from the FBI for identification of bodies by coroners. Security clearances, Bar Exam applications require fingerprinting. If you've been printed the prints go in a big database in the sky. Wôoooooooooooo!!!!!!!!

[zappaman]

24. To be fair

this poster is not getting even the most basic of information right about this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023143042#post119

[Cleita]

30. That's Huff Po, quoting Richard Clarke, not me, but

I'm flattered that you think I wrote that.

[zappaman]

33. Do you ever tire of making things up?

Here's the link to the HUFFPO article.
I quoted the part that shows you made it up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/24/michael-hastings-car-hacked_n_3492339.html

"Hastings was driving a 2013 Mercedes C250 coupe when he crashed into a tree on Highland Ave."

Any more help I can give you?

[Cleita]

38. You were the one who said he was going 100 miles an hour. It turns out the

engine block got thrown 100 feet and you said 100 MPH. At least the cops said he wasn't going that fast.

[zappaman]

41. So now you are attacking my info?

You really have problems keeping up don't you?

http://laist.com/2013/06/20/coroner_confirms_michael_hastings_died_in_crash.php

"A witness said the vehicle was traveling about 100 mph shortly before the crash. "

Here's a link to someone who believes in conspiracies.

http://snarkypenguin.wordpress.com/2013/06/21/was-michael-hastings-murdered/





Still wondering if you will admit you really don't know much about this accident, do you?
I have to admit, your posts are amusing since you really are flailing about with the facts.

[Cleita]

46. Caught red faced and you won't admit it. How does it feel when you come up with 100MPH and it's

so wrong

btw if you and your buddy think you are going to embarrass me off this board like you do to others who are real contributors because sometimes they make mistakes because the information on a developing story can be murky and change, you aren't. Both of you need to get a social life, truly.

You know sometimes just throwing ideas around is what people do to puzzle out mysteries, hence the stuntman thing, which even I know is far-fetched, but you have to be rude and run all over the place making fun of me and others who want a real discussion. You must be so proud of yourselves.

[zappaman]

48. I provided a link where a witness said 100mph.

Wow.
No offense, but you might want to actually read it before making yet another mis-statement.

And as to "how it feels to be caught red -faced"...you tell me.

So far, you misread the HUFFPO article AND proclaimed the accident happened on a street where it didn't happen.

Will you be telling us more of your "Hollywood stuntman" theory.

[Cleita]

56. Cops say he was going more than 60 MPH but not 100. The engine block was thrown 100 ft &

the reporters picked it up as 100 MPH.
Oh, on stuntmen have some fun and read this.

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/stuntmen5.htm

Car chases and crashes
Stunt driving is a very specialized skill. Cars used in stunt scenes aren't "off the showroom floor" stock models. They're modified with added safety equipment such as a roll cage and on-board fire extinguishers, rigs for placing cameras and any gear needed to accomplish the stunt itself. If the car needs to flip or jump, a large pneumatic air ram is bolted into the car. If the ram points down, it can be triggered by the driver to fire a pole at the ground, propelling the car into a flip. An air ram pointing backward can launch a car into an impressive jump. While not all car chases and crashes involve fire, many will end with the car crashing and causing a huge explosion or catching on fire.

more at link

[zappaman]

60. "The engine block was thrown 100 ft & the reporters picked it up as 100 MPH."

Again, you are making things up.
I linked to a witness that said 100mph (which is over 60mph, by the way).
But in your head, I guess the reporters got it wrong because...ah...because you say so.
Got it.

[Cleita]

63. Have it your way.

Thanks for helping me keep the post on the first page. You do have your uses, but now I have to tell you to run along. Look for my new posts tomorrow. U can insult me all you like then cuz it means nothing to me.

[zappaman]

71. I eagerly look forward to whatever "facts" you will be posting tomorrow

and will stand by to be my helpful self and correct you.

[Cleita]

73. Back atcha.

Better make sure your sources are better than the ones you threw at me today.

[zappaman]

78. I did find other links that had the same questions as you regarding fingerprints.

But since they were from FreeRepublic, I didn't bother linking.

[Cleita]

80. I found those too and didn't bother linking for the same reason.

But there are other websites on the left that are saying the same, but since they aren't mainstream like AP or Huff Po I didn't link to them either.

[DevonRex]

31. I saw that and laughed. Posted like 10 times, omigosh have you SEEN this??????

Yeah, like over and over and over again. Good god somebody make it stop. It's embarrassing. Unless we use the idea I came up with today. If we have to talk about DU to other people, we explain it as a satire site. We're satirizing ourselves. As if, of COURSE we don't believe this shit. Who COULD?

[zappaman]

35. It's funny but it seems this poster has conducted their own investigation from 200 miles away

and concluded that "hollywood stuntmen" could be involved.

[DevonRex]

67. HOLLYWOOD STUNTMEN!!!!! Why those bastards.

And they're union, too!

[Cleita]

26. Wow, you read that into my post? You must have because my words certainly

weren't those.

[DevonRex]

32. No, you openly doubted what the FBI said. And you posited the burned-off flesh scenario. nt

[REP]

39. And still going for it, despite someone patiently explaining how things work on Earth.

[zappaman]

51. The poster has been all over the map on this one.

But can't stop...

[DevonRex]

62. Let's make up our OWN conspiracy theories! It could be fun!

[zappaman]

68. If you can come up with a better one than one involving "hollywood stuntmen"

I'm all ears!

"Somebody like that doesn't suddenly turn into a NASCAR driver unless he's being chased and there are no witnesses that saw him being chased, which leaves open the possibility somebody far more reckless that he was driving and jumped the car just before the explosion and crash. And don't think it can be done. Any good movie stuntman can do it and Hollywood is full of stuntmen."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023143042#post63

[Liberal Veteran]

70. I found a tennis ball in my back yard. I have identified it as a Penn brand, but...

....it raises more questions than answers.

How did the ball get there? There are no tennis courts nearby.
Was the tennis ball remotely controlled to land in my yard?
It was obviously placed there, yet no one witnessed it. How can that be?
Why does the ball look like it has teeth marks? Could a roaming pack of pit bulls be trying to frame me?

I demand an investigation to get at the truth and congressional hearings.

[Cleita]

82. Congress would love to hold hearings on your tennis ball dilemma instead of

actually doing their job of keeping this country from slipping into the drink.

[DevonRex]

93. Definitely roving Pit Bulls!!!!! OMG!!!!! Run for your lives!!!!!

I bet they've been specially trained by NSA, too!!!

[DevonRex]

61. But but Obama bombed the MOON!!!!!! He DID!!!!

[treestar]

53. I'm actually kind of amazed there is not, or am expecting

and outrage over AFIS. It seems once fingerprinted, even if for non-criminal reasons, prints are retained forever as a sort of metadata. That would seem prohibited under the Fourth Amendment to some of those here.

[DevonRex]

64. Shhh!

They're out to GET US!!!! WHO you ask? I don't know. Somebody, though.

[Cleita]

75. z has left the building. Shouldn't you? b.t

[REP]

96. You're expecting people to know what AFIS is

Many on this thread are demonstrating an astonishing lack of knowledge of basic police and forensic procedures. I mean real-world stuff, not CIS Miami bullshit.

[REP]

21. To completely burn a body to ash, it must burn at 1600-1800F 1 hour per 100 lbs

So it's VERY unlikely his corpse was incinerated to that degree. He was in a car; the car itself kept his body from being directly involved in the hottest part of the fire.

[Cleita]

25. These are fingers, not the whole body. They can burn faster. Even you can't deny that. n/t

[REP]

36. Depends upon how the body was positioned

Most people instinctively throw one or both hands over their face in a crash. Additionally, fire causes the body to assume what is called "the pugilistic stance," which draws the hands towards the body. If his body was thrown so he was lying on his hands, they would have been protected as well.

It's all right. I just know a lot about this sort of thing. It's not unusual for people to be mystified by it. I read a lot.

[Rex]

45. I guess he had fireproof fingertips left

on his burnt to a crisp hands? Ya sounds like garbage.

[Recursion]

47. Not to me, and I had mortuary duty in Iraq

Bodies do burn unevenly.

[Rex]

49. I guess the coroner could clear this up in a heartbeat.

Probably won't.

[NutmegYankee]

57. Several possibilities here.

For instance, he could have had a death grip on the steering wheel. That would have protected the skin on the inside of the grip.

Or he could have been wearing driving gloves.

[pnwmom]

54. It will be simple enough to confirm this with dental records. n/t

[Cleita]

58. Yes, which makes one wonder why they aren't using them or if they are why they aren't

saying that they used fingerprints and dental records to identify him.

[pnwmom]

66. Have they released a full autopsy report? I would think that would

be up to the family to decide. And if the family wasn't satisfied with the identification, don't you think they'd be saying something? I suspect they're waiting for the toxicology reports, which always take a long time.

[Cleita]

69. They won't for a couple of months when the toxicology reports come in, however,

since they went as far to confirm his identity and the means by which they did so, it struck me odd that dental records hadn't been used. It seems like a weird piece of information to withhold unless he had been shot and they didn't want that information out yet.

[pnwmom]

83. I don't think it's odd that they didn't mention it. They didn't mention a lot of things.

Most people will be satisfied with the identification by fingerprints, especially since the family isn't questioning the ID.

[Cleita]

85. There is some stuff out in the blogs that his wife thinks he was murdered.

However, how verifiable this is, I don't know. Unless some mainstream blog reports the same then maybe there is something there.

[pnwmom]

55. The FBI having his fingerprints is not surprising. Most states have signed onto the

FBI's national fingerprint system. He would have had his fingerprints taken when he was arrested for his DUI, if nothing else.

[WillyT]

59. K & R !!!