Study shows U.S. has engineering surplus; why the pressure to import more?

[flexnor]

"The study, "Is President Obama Right about Engineers?" is based on data collected by the Census Bureau from the American Community Survey. Dr. Steven Camarota, its author, found the following: 1) 101,000 U.S. engineers looking for a job can't find any type of work at all; 2) 244,000 engineers are unemployed and have stopped looking for work and 3) 1.5 million engineers have jobs but don't work as engineers."



http://www.nj.com/hudson/voices/index.ssf/2012/02/study_shows_us_has_engineering.html

[Enrique]

1. are we talking about the real world?

or the fantasy world Obama was talking about, as described to him by his corporate advisers?

the same people that told him this, which he then relayed to us:

[baldguy]

2. Because they can pay imported engineers w/H1Bs much much less.

[nanabugg]

8. And it's a back-door way to citizenship for holders and their families.

It's a kind of way to "nationalize" only those considered "desirable" for our society. Worked with them for years. Many of their family members act as though they are privileged characters here, having come from some pretty repressive societies in their native lands. It's really sad that many top American engineers and their families suffer because of this. It makes me angry so I can't talk about all that's involved in the benefits that these folks get from our government and our corporations.

[Zalatix]

3. We need to import more engineers or else the isolationists and xenophobes win.

At least that's what DU's free trader bloc has been saying.

I wonder if they'll show up here?

[flexnor]

5. today's free trader bloc

would make a 1980s Reaganite blush, in it's fawning over the richest 1 percent

[Zalatix]

7. Actually on the Democratic Underground, our free trader bloc has taken another tact.

They now say that every time an American gets a job that's not nailed down, we're taking a job away from the poor in other nations. Our opposition to offshoring American jobs and to importing H1B's is xenophobia and isolationism, in their eyes, and we're contributing to global poverty, too. To hell with America's unemployed and poor, we gotta lower our standards of living to help the rest of the world. And I absolutely kid you not, that was actually said on here, almost word for word.

You'll eventually run into the folks who said this, that is, once they get their self-esteem back up from the SEVERE shellacking they took over and over again from a number of us anti-offshoring DUers a few weeks back. They've been laying low ever since...

[AndyTiedye]

9. Free Trade Would be an Improvement Over What We Have Now

We currently have a tax policy that favors offshoring in preference to hiring Americans.
That is protectionism in reverse. Free trade would be a step up from what we have now.

We have been trying to change this since at least 2004. It was one of Kerry's campaign planks.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

10. I know DU's free trader bloc

is like liberals without borders.

[HughBeaumont]

29. DU's Free Traitor clown car makes me sick.

It used to be worse, once upon a time, hard as that is to believe.

What's sad is that many of them aren't hit-and-runners, but long-timers pushing the Big Tent to it's maximum capacity.

[Zalatix]

30. LOL Free Traitor clown car LOL!!!

I believe it used to be worse... most Americans used to drink the free market kool-aid.

I remember when I used to get SLAMMED, HARD, utterly ganged upon, on political boards, for opposing this free trade thing. I warned them, big time. It's a bitter sweet thing to be vindicated like this, but now that the opposition is in the VAST majority, it's only a matter of time before things change.

[flexnor]

34. I trusted Perot's opinion, he was actually a businessman, not a political class suckup

Perot wasnt perfect, EDS and Perot systems were far from perfect places to work, but the guy did know something about business. In 1992, he talk nuts and bolts, Bush and Clinton talked raw BS and smokescreen

Plus, I was just short of a minor in Econ - It was just common sense that demolishing millions of jobs and having a huge trade deficit would make us poor

[newspeak]

44. yeah, well some who have spouted how great free trade is

and how we need to lower our standard, so we will all be on the same playing field-all over the world, also spout how we'll have one government in the world. I think they've been watching one too many star trek movies.

So, what kind of government would that be? A bunch of sociopathic heads of the few global corporations left sitting at a round table?

The corporatists use nationalism to bamboozle the people-go USA!!!!-while they are slowly dismantling it and selling it to the highest foreign bidder.

[flexnor]

4. Operator of bogus IT consulting firm sentenced to prison

"U.S. District Judge James Moody sentenced Ravinder Reddy Allala to 40 months in federal prison for visa fraud and conspiracy"

"submitted fake H1B visa applications for Indian nationals between 2006 and 2010,"

"Allala submitted the bogus visa applications under a fake name and in many instances, also listed a fake workplace for the aliens, the statement said."

http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2012/02/15/operator-of-bogus-it-consulting-firm.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002315440

[tabatha]

6. There are engineers and there are engineers.

One has to have the right training. For our specialized product, it is almost impossible to find someone with the right training. So for now, we have to use a part-timer which wreaks havoc on schedules. One of the long term people has skills that are no longer taught. Employees are all American.

Obama has noted this a few times - the right training is needed. I think it may be a reflection of our education system.

[Nikia]

15. How do you encourage people to pay to be educated on skills only needed at a few companies?

That is a rather risky prospect for the would be engineer. It assumes that the three companies that actually require and want those skills will stay in the U.S., want to hire them, and not be terrible places to work.
Maybe it would be a better prospect if those specialized companies hired people with general or related engineering skills. They could start at low level assistants and be trained by the company. I know that it is risky for the company because the trained workers might want to go to the other company that needs those skills. I guess that is where working on creating a workplace where people want to stay comes in.

[FarCenter]

24. Engineering skills are both fundamental and specific to industries and companies

There are academic skills that you learn in college, and they consist partly in basic science and math as well as partly in technolgies that are current while you are in college.

There are engineering skills that you learn on the job, and they consist partly in things applicable to only the employers, partly in things applicable to competitors, and partly in things applicable to the industry.

There are business skills that you learn as you gain more supervisory and managerial responsibility. These also have varying applicability.

Engineering skills become obsolete rather quickly. About half what you know is out of date within 5 to 10 years. Typically, it is up to the engineer to keep up to date on their own time and money. However, they can benefit by seeking job opportunities that will keep their skills fresh.

Many engineers do not keep up, and by middle age they drift off to other occupations or they become unemployable at the salaries they are looking for, since obsolete or too specific skills will not be paid for by new employers.

[tabatha]

25. Keeping up has been the survival tactic in this company.

In fact, the technology is undergoing re-engineering almost every 5 years, as other technology improves - such that it is ahead of anything else in many areas. Breaking new ground all the time, so to speak.

It would be fun to write a book about how one has had to keep up with every iteration of hardware and software improvement over the years. But it would be too time consuming.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

49. So train them already

They have the basics of engineering, and they're obviously smart, having completed an engineering degree.

That "we don't have the exact same specialists in this country" is a lame excuse to hire cheap labor from overseas.

I've seen that tactic even in academia: write your job description so specifically that no one except the candidate you want fits it.

[Neue Regel]

11. We also had a surplus of carpenters, masonry workers, drywall hangers, and roofers...

Yet there was never-ending pressure to import more and to go easy on those who were already here, legally or (mostly) otherwise. What makes America's engineers so special that they shouldn't be subjected to the same competitive forces as those Americans who work (or, in many cases, used to work) a construction trade? After all, these foreign engineers are simply looking for a better life for themselves and their families. India has seen tremendous gains in the last decade or so, but it is still beset by crushing poverty. Why would anyone try to keep these poor people from fleeing the third-world conditions of their homeland?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India

Poverty is widespread in India, with the nation estimated to have a third of the world's poor. According to a 2005 World Bank estimate, 41.6% of the total Indian population falls below the international poverty line of US$ 1.25 a day (PPP, in nominal terms INR 21.6 a day in urban areas and INR 14.3 in rural areas). A recent report by the Oxford Poverty and Human Development Initiative (OPHI) states that 8 Indian states have more poor than 26 poorest African nations combined which totals to more than 410 million poor in the poorest African countries.

[Zalatix]

12. So you would drive Americans into poverty to help foreigners?

Answer that... yes or no.

[Fumesucker]

16. The point the poster was making is this..

There have been plenty of Americans driven into policy by immigration and trade policy, now it's starting to become a concern because the effects are moving up into white collar jobs.

Nobody cared when it was blue collar workers getting the shaft.

[flexnor]

17. 'Nobody cared when it was blue collar workers getting the shaft. '?

you call 19 percent of the vote for a new party (Ross Perot in 1992) that had been given terrible media bias against it, almost entirely because of NAFTA 'nobody caring'?

a large number of people (myself included) stepped out of their normal party to vote for Perot entirely because of this - the PARTY may have been 'ok' with giving blue collar workers the shaft, but the MEMBERS weren't. I know I sure as heck wasnt. And it wasnt even 'empathy' as much as it was enlightened economic common sense

i was a programmer analyst (white collar). I knew that if manufacturing were lost, I'd still have a job, but my taxes would go up, there'd be fewer programming jobs, and if even a small percent of manufacturing people retrained for tech (not having training doesnt necessarly mean have no aptitude), it would be more people competing for fewer programming jobs, ie, lower wages. and communities would be more tense as , and they became 'have a little vs have very little'

I understood the economic domino effect, and felt that any manufacturing person who wanted their job should be able to keep it. If they wanted to retrain for something else, that's fine, i just didnt want them to feel they HAD to

[Fumesucker]

18. The policies have only gotten worse since 1992..

Let's put it this way, nobody who was anybody cared while it was blue collar jobs disappearing.

Deeds speak more loudly than words, policy is deeds.

[flexnor]

19. first, you imply that white collar people didnt care about this until it affected white collar jobs

and then when i make the case that it wasnt so, and that i cared you say

'nobody who was anybody cared while it was blue collar jobs disappearing'

wow - you might work on your tact a little bit

[Fumesucker]

32. You were part of a small minority..

Being right too soon is socially unacceptable..

[Zalatix]

21. Nobody who was anybody? Who are we the people? Chopped liver?

[Fumesucker]

31. We don't even rise to the level of chopped liver..

The policies stayed the same or got worse.

Fairly significant evidence that no one who counted cared..

[Zalatix]

42. Then it's time to count them out. Out of office.

This is why I laugh at people who make fun of populism...

[Neue Regel]

48. For most of the past decade...

Anyone who was opposed to allowing millions of illegal aliens to enter the US from Mexico and Central & South America was accused by a large contingent on the left of being racist, inhumane, "nativist", and xenophobic. Economic arguments, such as simple supply and demand driving down wages for Americans who worked in the same industry, were dismissed as nonsense and a thinly veiled excuse for racism. However, now that white collar workers are being adversely affected by H-1B visa holders who are willing to work for less, certain immigrants are no longer people who are looking for a better life who should be allowed to work in the US. Instead, they are people who are undermining workers in the US by driving down pay and are taking jobs from Americans.

[Zalatix]

20. Nobody? Really? As a lifetime white collar tech worker, I and my friends CARED.

Perhaps it's still a selfish thing because all our parents were blue collar workers?

I was screaming from day one that these immigration and outsourcing policies were hurting everyone - in fact, back in H Ross Perot's heyday I was wondering why people didn't clearly see the damage this was going to do to white collar America.

In fact it baffles me to no end why there is even a distinction between white collar and blue collar. We're all American workers, we're all under attack.

[flexnor]

26. 'baffles me to no end why there is even a distinction between white collar and blue collar''->BINGO!

if there's a hole in the boat, the only question, is who gets wet FIRST

[Zalatix]

28. It's all about dividing the workers against each other.

Blue collar, white collar, unionized, non-unionized, private industry workers, government workers, etc etc etc

They'll all drown if the Plutocrats get their way.

[flexnor]

33. It's why both parties love social issues

1992:

Bush Sr: 'We need a constitutional amendment to protect the flag'

Clinton: 'We need gays in the military'

Perot: 'NAFTA will create a giant sucking sound of jobs to mexico'

social issues (while not invalid in and of themselves) divide people who are united by common economic interests

[FarCenter]

40. In almost all companies, there's no union/non-uniion divide

Since the percent of private companies that have union workers is so low.

[Romulox]

36. Let's not forget unionized auto workers! nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

50. Let them improve their own country

How does a "brain drain" help India develop?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

13. They don't want to pay good wages to experienced people.

Hubby used to be a chem E. His degrees are in physics (BS, MS). He wanted to go into research, for example, like what the Superconducting Supercollider at Waxahachie would have done. Our country throws away educated people and refuses to invest in R&D. He also has taken a lot of math, enough to be a double major.

But he got thrown away. He was learning visual basic to program at his engineering job (process engineering and estimating group supervisor). They were doing everything in DOS. He knew they would need to switch over to Windows. He bought VB with his own money and learned it on his own time. However, they fired him because they were trying to save money, and then had to hire a bunch of high school kids to rewrite all their software, even though he was preparing to do it.

I was in a totally different field. My BA in Biology and my Juris Doctor (law degree) did not ever get me a job either, along with my 20 years of experience as a court reporter from watching trials. If our country didn't throw away educated people, I would be training trial lawyers. But that didn't happen. I feel like my working career has been a complete fucking waste of time, since I spent 12 years in college wasting my time preparing for a career where somebody would see that I had great talent, and use it.
But no......

I'm retired now and can't deal with working for other people anymore. Too much trauma in the legal business with lawyers and judges who can't manage their anger.

[bhikkhu]

14. As published, that's a worthless piece of non-information

...as in - you don't know any more after you've read it than before.

The main problem is that there is no such thing as a generic "engineer" that you can fill a generic "engineering job" with. No distinctions or breakdowns are suggested in the article, so it really tells us nothing about the job market.

[redqueen]

47. +1

[Odin2005]

22. Because Americans are "too expensive" for the corporatists.

[krispos42]

23. We need more jobs that hire engineers.

That's the core of any national economy. That's how you DO stuff, rather than just move stuff around.

Half of all engineering degrees are handed out in China. They're DOING stuff, and I doubt we will ultimately like what they're going to do.

[flexnor]

27. Engineers have high status in Germany

and it's no coincidence, that their exports are net positive and high, and that their products are considered high quality

But in the US 'Dilbert' best portrays the status of engineers , and we've been sliding down the tubes as long as we've had that attitude (wasnt always that way, although engineers were more likely to come from blue collar families, which is why it's really unfair to say that they 'didnt care about blue collar workers getting the shaft')

[Romulox]

35. The majority of Americans drive foreign nameplate cars. Where did you think

your Hyundai was engineered, guys?

[flexnor]

37. chevy, buick, ford-only brands i've ever driven

any of those names sound foreign to you?

(I took pontiac out, because i've never had one as my primary car, more a toy)

[Romulox]

38. Well, SOMEBODY's buyin' 'em, so the point stands.

[FarCenter]

39. If the Detroit makes would put the engineers in charge, instead of the "designers", they do better

There seems to be some hope for that at Ford, although they seem to have blown it with their dual-clutch transmission in the Focus.

Engineers care more about quality, reliability, efficiency, longevity and other practical matters than on the style, shape, upholstery, and trim.

[Romulox]

43. And thus begin the EXCUSES.

I'm sure I feel the same way about whatever YOU do; namely, that somebody overseas can do it better, cheaper.

[flexnor]

41. Ever notice that neither party acknowledges a labor perspective in tech/engineering AT ALL?!?

(with the exceptions of Durbin and Grassley, and occasionally Kucinich)

that unlike auto manufacturing etc where they would (correctly) never take the word of the company ceo at face value without examination and a counter point of view from labor, when it comes to tech they take the word of guys like Bill Gates as gospel, speaking for ALL stakeholders in tech including labor, and fawn all over him?

[Taitertots]

45. Why? Because it fits in the narrative of blaiming the workers

Instead of blaiming the parasitic "investor" class. The people who actually caused all our financial problems.

When is Obama going to admit that the single biggest reason that we are having economic problems is that rich people are hoarding money.

[redqueen]

46. There are different types of engineers. But hey,

nobody bothers letting anything like pesky details slow them down.