BREAKING: Venezuelan President Maduro WILL GIVE political asylum to Snowden (updated)

[Catherina]

Last edited Sat Jul 6, 2013, 06:16 PM - Edit history (6)

Also see: Nicaragua's President Ortega says Edward Snowden applied for asylum, which would be granted

Anonymous ?@AnonOpsMob 1m

BREAKING: Venezuelan President @NicolasMaduro announces Venezuela WILL GIVE political asylum to Edward #Snowden

https://twitter.com/AnonOpsMob/status/353305623326232576

WikiLeaks ?@wikileaks 27s

Venezuela's President Maduro says he has decided to offer asylum to NSA leaker Edward #Snowden #nsa #prism #maduro #venezeula

Asylum granted to #Snowden by #Venezuela. Before granting it, Maduro hinted he needed Snowden in .ve soil... Interesting. Expect surprises.

Venezuela's Maduro offers asylum to U.S. fugitive Snowden
Fri Jul 5, 2013 8:16pm EDT

by Miraflores Palace June 25, 2013. REUTERS/Miraflores Palace/Handout via Reuters


CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro said on Friday he had decided to offer asylum to former U.S. intelligence contractor Edward Snowden, who has petitioned several countries to avoid capture by Washington.

"I have decided to offer humanitarian asylum to the young American, Edward Snowden, so that in the fatherland of (Simon) Bolivar and (Hugo) Chavez, he can come and live away from the imperial North American persecution," Maduro told a televised parade marking Venezuela's independence day.

Snowden is believed to be holed up in the transit area of a Moscow international airport.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCABRE96500420130706

[hr]

President Maduro made this decision after consulting with other regional leaders. I'm guessing that was yesterday in Cochabamba. He is making the offer in the name of the DIGNITY of Latin America.

VIDEO at the link

....

"In the name of the dignity of Latin America, I want to announce as head of the Venezuelan State and Government, I have decided to offer humanitarian asylum to the young Edward Snowden so that he can come to the homeland of Chavez and Bolivar" he said.

Maduro said that with this decision, Venezuela rejects the pretensions of certain governments to try to convert the peoples of America into colonies. "The people reject the cowardice of that empire where countries are turned into colonies. The madness of persecution was unleashed against the governments of the world, even against European governments themselves."

...

http://www.telesurtv.net/articulos/2013/07/05/venezuela-y-nicaragua-ofrecen-asilo-humanitario-al-exagente-edward-snowden-9276.html

[hr]
EDIT/UPDATE

and shortly afterwards, an extradition request was sent to Venezuela. Full text of the extradition request here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jul/06/us-request-extradition-edward-snowden


Unfortunately for the US, the 1922 US/Venezuela extradition treaty excludes political crimes and can be declined in many cases. Then there's that pesky matter of all the anti-Castro and anti-Chavez terrorists, assassins, bankers and other trash that the US has refused to extradite.

[hrmjustin]

1. Now the issue is getting him there.

[reformist2]

166. I'm sure Russia and China will be more than happy to oblige.

[hrmjustin]

167. I think they would be too. If Russia wants to be gone with him I think they would

just put him on a plane or a boat.

[MADem]

188. VZ needs to issue him a safe conduct pass, like Ecuador did to get him out of Hong Kong.

If they don't do that, they're just stylin'.

Putin is not going to give him anything.

[xtraxritical]

270. They need to issue ES a passport, that's all he needs to clear Russian

customs.

[MADem]

275. If they were doing it right, they'd need the legislature to vote on it, I would imagine.

Or they could just do it by decree, I suppose...?

[xtraxritical]

289. I dunno, all I know is the Russian's want a valid travel document.

That means a passport.

[MADem]

296. He went from Hong Kong to Moscow on a travel authorization from Ecuador.

Surely Maduro could give him a note if he was serious...?

[JDPriestly]

309. Here, courts decide.

I would suppose that they will get Snowden to Venezuela (if he isn't already there) and then arrange it according to Venezuelan law.

In Venezuela, the Organic Law on Refugees and Asylees was published in the Official Gazette on October 3, officially bringing the law into effect. The law establishes the right to seek asylum in Venezuela, and outlines asylum procedures and the rights and responsibilities of the state and of refugees in Venezuela. Venezuela's National Assembly had passed the law on August 28 (2001).

http://www.unhcr.org/3bc6deb08.html

I can't find a copy of the law.

[MADem]

311. You don't need to find a copy of the actual law--that's well sourced info in and of itself.

I'd be willing to bet that your cited paragraph is accurate. Apparently they have a Refugee/Asylum Commission that reviews and approves applications. I would guess they'd have the bulk of their work done should he ever be wheels down in their country:

Established in July 2003, the National Refugee Commission is the first such institution in Venezuela. In addition to reviewing individual asylum applications and determining refugee status, the commission oversees the government's efforts to provide protection and assistance to those seeking asylum. For victims of the Colombian conflict, the granting of refugee status is important because it opens up the possibility of rebuilding their lives in Venezuela.

http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/search?page=search&docid=4028c69314&query=venezuela%20asylum

[JDPriestly]

312. Morales was not the only South American leader in Russia last week.

Madura was also there.

http://www.gulf-times.com/us-latin%20america/182/details/358227/-maduro-in-moscow

[MADem]

313. Maduro, yes.

It was a gas producers meeting, in essence. Like a mini-OPEC for gas.

[pangaia]

265. For starters--

a Dassault Falcon 900EX has a range of over 7,000 NM.
Moscow to Caracas is about 5300 NM. That's a pretty simplified bit of info..but---
I'm sure Cuba would allow a landing if needed... Several west African countries.. a tank if Jet-A and on the way...
Not so simple perhaps, but..maybe it is..

[99th_Monkey]

316. Wasn't there an issue with Snowden not having traveling papers, passport, etc.?

So he couldn't officially leave Russia until he got that squared away somehow?

I hope these offers are not just empty gestures. I guess we'll see.

[struggle4progress]

2. Maduro Rejects U.S. Extradition Request for Snowden

Created: 2013-07-05 17:34 EST

... The government of the United States presented to our foreign ministry, as we were flying in, a scrap of paper requesting the extradition of the young (Edward) Snowden...They do not have the moral right to request the extradition of a young man who is only warning of the illegalities committed by the Pentagon and the CIA and the United States. As head of state, I reject any request for extradition. They (the U.S.) are simply disregarding bilateral agreements" ...

http://ntdtv.org/en/news/world/south-america/2013-07-05/maduro-rejects-u-s-extradition-request-for-snowden.html

[Mojorabbit]

78. CBS has this

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/05/19309635-venezuelas-maduro-offers-asylum-to-nsa-leaker-snowden?lite
Venezuela's Maduro offers asylum to NSA leaker Snowden
By Reuters
Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro said on Friday he had decided to offer asylum to former U.S. intelligence contractor Edward Snowden, who has petitioned several countries to avoid capture by Washington.
"In the name of America's dignity ... I have decided to offer humanitarian asylum to Edward Snowden," Maduro told a televised military parade marking Venezuela's independence day.

[libodem]

238. Sweet

[Cleita]

3. So now he's got two offers, the other being Nicaragua.

I guess his problem now is to get out of Moscow without being kidnapped and returned to the US. It could be a possibility. You never know what our secret government has up its sleeve.

[Catherina]

4. Cleita.... What if he's already in Venezuela? Just a desperate thought lol. n/t

[Cleita]

6. At this point with all this cloak and dagger stuff, anything could have happened.

Wouldn't it have been funny if when all the focus was on Morales being accused of harboring him and suffering the indignities he did, instead all that time he was with Madura flying to Venezuela instead. That would have been the coup d' etat.

[arely staircase]

25. gras nt

[winter is coming]

58. grace.

"gras" means "liver".

[arely staircase]

69. coup de gras nt

[winter is coming]

76. It's grace. (Sounds like gras to our ears; "gras" sounds like gra.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_de_gr%C3%A2ce

[arely staircase]

90. you are right

thanks

[Cleita]

80. Actually, I meant coup d' etat as a riff on the overthrow of a state, but

in this case, the state of a stalemate being overturned if that makes any sense.

[arely staircase]

88. i think coup de grace "i mispelled it" makes more sense in the context of your post

A finishing stroke or decisive event. but I misspelled it so I'm not a fucking genious.

[Jackpine Radical]

174. Gras means fat.

Le foie is the liver.
La foie (I.e. fem.)=faith.

[winter is coming]

177. You're right; thanks.

[Eleanors38]

257. Sounds like a diet plan.

[idwiyo]

36. I would pay to know how trolled US about Snowden's presence on Morales' plane. Whoever it was they

managed to accomplish The Most Epic Troll Ever.

[JimDandy]

84. I think a well utilized bug did the job. n/t

[Jackpine Radical]

183. Hoist by their own petard.

Since this seems to be a night for pedantry, a petard is a small bomb. To be hoist by your own petard is to be blown into the air by your own bomb.

More? OK--"petard" literally means "little fart."

[JimDandy]

211. What a mighty wind from a little bug.

[formercia]

254. Petard is Firecracker in French (Canadian) n/t

[Jackpine Radical]

262. That's the modern usage.

In Shakespeare's time they were small bombs.

[xtraxritical]

271. A petard is a large hook for hanging things, like meat.

That's where the saying comes from.

[Jackpine Radical]

272. petard (n.)

petard (n.)
1590s, "small bomb used to blow in doors and breach walls," from French pétard (late 16c.), from Middle French péter "break wind," from Old French pet "a fart," from Latin peditum, noun use of neuter past participle of pedere "to break wind," from PIE root *pezd- "to fart" (see feisty). Surviving in phrase hoist with one's own petard (or some variant) "blown up with one's own bomb," which is ultimately from Shakespeare (1605):

For tis the sport to haue the enginer Hoist with his owne petar ("Hamlet" III.iv.207).

[xtraxritical]

291. I'm hoisted.

[MADem]

304. Jackpine has the correct meaning of the "hoisted on their own petard" term. nt

[idwiyo]

194. You mean something along the lines:

Putin in a known bugged location with whoever.

Putin: so was the package delivered to Bolivians without incident?
Whoever: yes Sir!
Putin: any chance Americans noticed that bird has left the cage?
Whoever: absolutely NOT, Sir!
Putin: Well done, comrade!

Putin leaves, cackling evily...

NSA bunker somewhere in US:
NSA: oh fuck, Snowden is one the plane! Lets tell CIA!
CIA: got some blackmail shit on France, Italy, Portugal, and Spain?
NSA: Sure we do! All curtesy of our 'anti-terrorism' program, LOL!
CIA: WICKED!

...

[JimDandy]

202. LOL Wicked

[warrant46]

251. Awesome !!

[Catherina]

128. Now THAT would be something!

I'm really hoping he's already there.

[malaise]

112. I mentioned a what if all the confusion was to obfuscate

the real moves - this is the perfect spy v spy

[Cleita]

116. Oh, yeah, but I wonder if they had the imagination to think of it and then pull it off.

If they did, this will go down in the history of spy stories.

[malaise]

119. Never forget Putin was KGB

[idwiyo]

150. I would put my money on Putin and FSB. I bet he is having good time laughing his arse off over

merde so many countries found themselves in.

I'd also like to know what is it that CIA/NSA have that would let them blackmail France, Italy, Spain, and Portugal into covering themselves with so much merde.

[sabrina 1]

222. I think they've already gone after Spain's PM with some corruption accusations, or maybe it was

Italy, hard to keep up these days. Maybe a promise to make those allegations go away. We'll have to watch and see.

[suffragette]

231. The center right is in power there

It looks like the Spanish Ambassador to Austria mentioned in the articles, Alberto Carnero (also listed in some places as Alberto Carnero Fernández) is a right winger who also held posts in Foreign Policy and Security previously. This would likely make him the same Alberto Carnero listed here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush–Aznar_memo

He also was connected to something called the FAES Foundation, which looks to be a neocon think tank.

[Catherina]

280. Well this is interesting. The little neocon offering Morales coffee, What are his ties to Otto Reich

He's not the only little neocon playing a part either.

During the last Venezuelan elections, when there was so much US interference, Colombian paramilitaries, Maduro (and before him Chavez) pointed their fingers at Otto Reich and his merry band of neocons. The day before the Morales plane incident, I bookmarked this link because I wondered why Spain was even reporting Otta Reich's opinion.

Otto Reich and other neocons heavily involved in the recent attempts to destabilize Venezuela have been very busy lately. One of their contacts, Alek Boyd, is another one who's been busy. And the same journalists who were subtly misrepresenting Latin American events before have now gone all out, in unison, with no subtlety whatsover. Remember the recent articles by Rory Carroll that Correa was cooling on offering Snowden asylum? All lies and cleverly re-arranged, snipped quotations, with old stuff mixed in with the new. The videos of the interview Correa gave that snake, disproving those "shameful lies" have repeatedly been posted underneath the article and sent to the journalist who wrote them. He refuses to correct his story. Correa finally denounced him for it publicly. Meanwhile the US and UK presses run with the lies.

Anyway, why is Otto Reich being dragged out to weigh in on Morales taking Snowden to Bolivia in his plane, the day before all hell breaks loose? And the little neocon Spanish Ambassador running around inviting Morales for :lmao: coffee so he can try to force his way on the plane?

Is Edward Snowden Bound for Bolivia? Evo Morales Sure Seems to Hope So
by Eli Lake, Mac Margolis Jul 2, 2013 5:48 PM EDT

The Bolivian president says he’d be pleased to give the NSA leaker asylum. And since he’s in Moscow, he could even give him a lift.

...

“Bolivia is one of the countries where we have some of the fewest pressure points in Latin America,” says Otto Reich, a former top American diplomat who has worked on Latin America for more than 30 years. “We have not had an ambassador in Bolivia in five years.”

[center] “He could just show up back home with Snowden and make a big splash.”[/center]

Bolivia has said it didn't receive an asylum request from Snowden. But for Morales himself, Snowden could provide a public-relations boost back home. A former Bolivian ambassador to Washington, Jaime Aparício Otero, said he wasn’t surprised Morales would hint that his government would grant Snowden asylum. “Granting asylum to someone like Snowden would guarantee him a place in the news cycle,” said Aparício. “He could just show up back home [on his presidential plane] with Snowden and make a big splash. Snowden might prefer to go to another country, but if he has no other possibility, who knows?”

A plus for Snowden of settling in La Paz: It would be very difficult for the U.S. to extradite him. The 1995 treaty between the two countries contains an exception for political offenses. This exception is assumed under international law to include “purely political” crimes like espionage. Last month, the Justice Department charged Snowden at first in secret with violating the Espionage Act by disclosing defense information.

...

Reich, the former American diplomat, says he thinks Morales might just be crazy enough to ferret Snowden to La Paz. “This guy is capable of harboring a Snowden,” he said. “It may also be that cooler heads in his government will prevail and say, ‘Wait a second, we have enough problems with America. Why are we doing this?’” Morales was scheduled to leave Moscow on Wednesday, according to Bolivia’s Ministry of Communication in La Paz.




Eli Lake is the senior national-security correspondent for Newsweek and The Daily Beast. He previously covered national security and intelligence for The Washington Times. Lake has also been a contributing editor at The New Republic since 2008 and covered diplomacy, intelligence, and the military for the late New York Sun. He has lived in Cairo and traveled to war zones in Sudan, Iraq, and Gaza. He is one of the few journalists to report from all three members of President Bush’s axis of evil: Iraq, Iran, and North Korea.

A longtime correspondent for Newsweek, Mac Margolis has traveled extensively in Brazil and Latin America. He has contributed to The Economist, The Washington Post, and The Christian Science Monitor, and is the author of The Last New World: The Conquest of the Amazon Frontier.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/02/is-edward-snowden-bound-for-bolivia-evo-morales-sure-seems-to-hope-so.html

[suffragette]

292. Good questions

Quite a bit of neocon involvement in all this, both behind the scenes and managing media portrayal of it.

The "pressure points" phrasing speaks volumes.

Also, in Spain, the Socialist govt got shoved out mostly because of the Austerity measures they acceded to, and the right wingers came back in. These are the same, including Carnero, who worked for Aznar and Aznar was the one who tried to stay in power by lying about the Madrid bombings.

[Catherina]

293. Snowden's leaks are exposing the international 1%. Endangering their profits

I of course, am loving it!

Carnero, Otto Reich... At the same time they dragged out Darth Cheney out of his bat cave and Bush to defend this program.

You know how sometimes you pull on one loose string on a bad sweater and it just keeps and keeps unraveling. That's the visual I'm getting here lol.

Carnero and Reich were heavily involved in recent attempts to put their rightwingers back in charge in Venezuela, Things are adding up very quickly for the little guys on the street.

[Cleita]

171. So maybe at this summit, there was a meeting in a back room with Putin, Maduro and

Morales and they shared a bottle of vodka and hatched this little plan.



There has been so much about what we have seen from Putin and the two So. Amer. Presidents that doesn't add up, especially Putin. He just seemed so unconcerned and just wanting him to leave Moscow that I really have wondered and still do, if this man ever went to Moscow. No one has seen him, not on the airplane from Hong Kong, not in the airport anywhere. It's like he's invisible. He's probably been hiding in Hong Kong all along and now they are going to move him over there to Venezuela while we are looking over here in Moscow.

[ReRe]

258. Can't wait to see this comedy in film, perhaps titled "Spies Like Us" ;-) n/t

[7962]

318. "Spies like us" which introduced the world to the beautiful Vanessa Angel

nuff said

[MADem]

199. And he still has a firm grip on security/intelligence services in Mutha Russia. nt

[malaise]

259. The GHW Bush of Russia

[MADem]

277. Precisely like the GHWB of Russia--only considerably more ruthless! nt

Last edited Sat Jul 6, 2013, 04:44 PM - Edit history (1)

[kentuck]

186. We shouldn't forget...

That Venezuela was in Moscow, along with Bolivia, for the "oil meeting".

The Bolivian plane could have been a decoy? Did anyone check the Venezuelan plane when it left?

The story that the Austrian ambassador heard - that Snowden was on the Bolivian plane - could have been planted so that the US and others would think Snowden was actually on the Bolivian plane?

While they were chasing the Bolivian plane, the Venezuelan plane could have flown out undetected and unscathed?

It's a possibility.

[Catherina]

200. Kentuck, you read my mind and several other peoples too (via pm)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3180039

[xiamiam]

230. you guys are so smart..i leave for a few hours and you figure it out..lol, nt.

[magical thyme]

267. that was my thought as soon as I read about the Bolivian plane issues

that it was a diversionary tactic.

Dawg our "elites" are so easily played

[sabrina 1]

221. I just thought of something. What if the calls claiming he was on Morales' plane were a diversion?

All focus was on Evo's plane, while Ven was taking him out on their plane, after an agreement with Russia?

Okay, I'm getting too involved in all the cloak and dagger stuff. Lol

I imagine Ven. consulted with all the leaders of Latin America and most likely, considering the insult to Morales' and by extension to all of them, they decided to get him to Latin America, and Venezuela volunteered.

Now they have let the world know that Latin America is not be trifled with anymore. The very best thing the US could have done would have been to ignore Snowden, to start investigating the crimes against the people, and begin the process of demonstrating to the world that we are not the hypocrites we appear to be.

[Catherina]

226. Hahaha lol

Great minds and all that lol. Check this out: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3180925 I'm all cloak and dagger tonight but it's from wanting him to be further along with some semblance of safety.

[xiamiam]

232. maybe that is why obama has been so quiet..nt

[nineteen50]

301. I think he is being quiet because he doesn't have Snowden and

can not talk about the issue until he has him and knows all that will be exposed else wise he could be caught in a lie.

[Catherina]

236. I'm sorry, I can't resist

This temper tantrum has gotten old-

According to Caprilles, the runner-up in the last presidential elections and governor of the state of Miranda, Venezuela’s president aimed to use the Snowden saga in a bid to “conceal the fact that he stole the elections,” asserting that the offer “does not grant him legitimacy,

http://rt.com/news/maduro-snowden-asylum-venezuela-723/

[kentuck]

10. I think he is out of Moscow already.

But he's probably still in Bolivia if he was on their plane. He may have been since it wasn't searched.

[idwiyo]

17. Nicaragua too? I managed to miss that one.

[Cleita]

23. There's another thread on it somewhere on GD. n/t

[idwiyo]

29. Just googled it. Thank you for the tip!

[JDPriestly]

310. Maduro was in Moscow with Morales.

http://www.gulf-times.com/us-latin%20america/182/details/358227/-maduro-in-moscow

[railsback]

5. Well, good luck with that

Venezuela isn't going to increase any exports harboring a fugitive.

[struggle4progress]

7. Mebbe. Except America sucks oil without ceasing

[railsback]

20. No country can rely solely on oil revenues

like Venezuela has been trying to do. One of Maduro's top priorities once winning the election was to drastically increase exports.

[galileoreloaded]

40. its fucking venezuela! hahahahaha

50% of GDP is petroleum and the US is their largest trading partner because we are fucktards.

their Rolex export business is really hurting!

[KittyWampus]

49. fucktard is kind of an unfortunate term, IMO.

[galileoreloaded]

51. meh, if the shoe fits. nt

[randome]

55. Not to mention it doesn't even make sense.

We're 'fucktards' because we trade with them?

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[formercia]

256. Contraction of Fucking Retard n/t

[Gman]

91. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and others do just fine

[quinnox]

104. exactly, Middle Eastern countries seem to get rich selling this oil stuff

Venezuela won't be having any trouble finding buyers for their oil, that much is certain. It is black gold and one of the most desirable commodities in the world, always has been.

[MADem]

205. They'd better find someone to fix their refineries, too....

I'll bet China will step up--they own Venezuela anyway, VZ is so in debt to them it isn't funny. Not "balance of trade," either--full bore loans.


VZ has "oil woes" and it isn't helping their bottom line--and they need the USA way more than USA needs them:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/09/world/americas/venezuelas-role-as-oil-power-diminished.html?_r=0

Venezuela’s annual oil production has declined since Mr. Chávez took office in 1999 by roughly a quarter, and oil exports have dropped by nearly a half, a major economic threat to a country that depends on oil for 95 percent of its exports and 45 percent of its federal budget revenues.

“Venezuela’s clout on OPEC and on world oil prices has been greatly diminished because of its inability to exploit its enormous resources,” said Michael Lynch, president of Strategic Energy and Economic Research, a consultancy. “In the 1990s, their production was booming and they could thumb their nose at Saudi Arabia and get away with it, but now they have become OPEC’s poor cousin.”

In a fundamental geopolitical turn, Venezuela now relies far more on the United States than the United States relies on Venezuela.

Venezuela depends on the United States to buy 40 percent of its exports because Gulf of Mexico refineries were designed to process low-quality Venezuelan and Mexican crudes that most refineries around the world cannot easily handle. But in recent years, the United States has been replacing its imports of Latin American crudes with oil from Canadian oil sands fields, which is similarly heavy.

[Democracyinkind]

245. Is being in debt to China a bad thing?

I know some other countries that should reflect on that...

[eShirl]

249. lol

[MADem]

303. See post 281. nt

[piratefish08]

250. good point. think how bad it would be to live in a country so indebted to China.

I'm sure glad we don't.

[MADem]

281. We have options, they don't. China will not cut off their nose to spite their own face.

China fucks themselves totally if they strong arm their largest market. VZ is not a player in that regard. That's Economics 101.

They pretty much sell one doggone thing, and production of that one doggone thing is down, dropping every year because they don't maintain the equipment needed to extract it, and the refineries that have the capability to refine it are either broken...or mostly in the US.

The Chinese might be willing to help them out -- but they're not gonna do it out of the goodness of their hearts.

They don't like that "colonial" stuff in VZ?

Meet the new boss...worse than the old boss!

[railsback]

132. Saudi Arabia can no longer depend on oil revenue to handle the growing population

Kuwait doesn't even count, being so tiny. Its like a tiny gas station.

[MADem]

198. Not so much, now--we've diversified. All that fracking. But we do REFINE their oil.

In fact, we're one of the few places that can handle their heavy, sour stuff. Their refineries tend to break due to poor maintenance...!

Notice two things about this chart: http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_epc0_im0_mbblpd_a.htm

First, that VZ is by no means a top or key supplier, and second, that if you look at the total "barrels per day" across the board, the numbers are going down, with the notable exception of CANADA.

When the price of oil goes up, as it has, unprofitable wells in USA suddenly become profitable--it becomes worthwhile to fire 'em up again. Plus, there's that fracking, as I said....and we're finally getting into the wind/solar thing...and then there's the whole shale oil business.

[Cleita]

8. China is more than happy to buy oil from them. n/t

[Benton D Struckcheon]

13. That oil has to make it out of the Caribbean first.

Sanctions on Venezuelan oil might wind up being enforced by the USN. They're not well-placed, geographically speaking.
As for that grade of crude they sell, the US has already been working on getting substitute sources. This will speed that process up considerably.

[arely staircase]

34. nobody is going to put sanctions on venezuela over snowden

nt

[Benton D Struckcheon]

83. Sanctions = US not buying any more Venezuelan oil

That would be for starters. It could get escalated. We'll see. First, let's see if he makes it there.

[arely staircase]

94. i don't think either are likely; him making it there or us not buying any more of their oil if he

does.

[Gman]

67. An act of war on the high seas???

You're saying the USN would do that? There not that stupid.

[warrant46]

252. "and live away from the imperial North American persecution" Maduro

[totodeinhere]

92. That would be a blockade which would be tantamount to a war. Do you really think that

President Obama would sign off on such a thing? After all he has already said that this whole affair is do big deal.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/06/obama-not-scrambling-jets-to-get-a-29-year-old-hacker-named-snowden/

[Scootaloo]

219. I don't think the US will do anything remotely close to such an idea

But that doesn't stop certain DU'ers from going all Strangelove on us, does it?

[railsback]

21. Can't live on oil alone.

[Cleita]

27. Oil isn't the only resource Venezuela has. It's just one of them. n/t

[railsback]

35. Venezuela focused on oil exports

Now they're scrambling to pump up the others sectors they've been neglecting for so long, like agriculture.

[Cleita]

48. Actually they have a successful stock exchange too.

I once interviewed for a job (I didn't get) with one of their branch offices in Los Angeles.

[railsback]

56. Trade sanctions and no Pacific Alliance just spells doom

Capriles will bang him over the head with this 24 hours a day.. if Snowden does actually get in.

NOT a wise move.

[flamingdem]

201. Populism and snowden will not save him

He. Lacks chavez, charisma this is an attempt to keep the mantle

[railsback]

204. Snowden would be a virus

Correa had to do some fancy dancing to escape the Snowden games. Maduro may have to follow suit.

[flamingdem]

207. Maybe he just wants to speak with

Joe b. now that could be smart end hostilities

[railsback]

213. Yeah, maybe Snowden is actually improving U.S. relations with Latin America

I say he ends up in Nicaragua. They can't do any worse than they're doing now. Problem for Snowden going to a really poor country, though, is that there's a lot of desperate people willing to do whatever's necessary for money. Since Snowden seems to be ALL about self-preservation, this would be just another ill-advised move.

[N.I.B.]

243. You mean like Cuba? Oh that's right Cuba is still around isn't it?

How long has Cuba's embargo been now 50 to 60 years? What is their main product? Isn't it sugarcane?

[Kolesar]

60. The refineries for that highly viscous oil are on the US Gulf Coast

It is a unique 90 million year old petro product and cannot be refined "just anywhere".

[Cleita]

73. Why you think they are going to refuse to refine it?

I doubt if the big, bad oil companies are going to turn down business just because Washington has their panties in a wad over a political incident that is their fault for privatizing our security and intelligence operations.

[Kolesar]

81. The refineries are owned by oil companies, not by the Venezuelan government

Those oil companies have no incentive to move product to another continent and idle a multibillion dollar refinery.

[Cleita]

97. We'll see. I doubt if they don't have some back up plans and deals. n/t

[Cleita]

113. I thought that is what I was saying. They aren't going to throw away profits.

They will refine the oil IMHO.

[Gman]

123. You did

Sorry, I think I clicked the wrong reply. (Sorry, wrong number!)

I'll delete it.

[cali]

103. So China is just buying Venezuelan oil for the heck of it?

[kentuck]

14. They own 7/11's, don't they?

And sell a lot of gas in this country.

[Egalitarian Thug]

26. Used to own Citgo. Not sure if they still do. n/t

[arely staircase]

37. yes, they do

nt

[HooptieWagon]

164. Sort of.

Citgo Oil, yes. Many of the retail outlets have been sold...some remain in corporate hands. Gas they sell at stations isn't necessarily from Citgo Oil. And Citgo Oil sells to many other gas stations. IOW, when you fill up your car, you have no idea of the source of the gas.

[arely staircase]

165. makes sense

nt

[Gman]

18. Totally irrelevant. Remember it was the US that wanted a global economy

So it don't make a bit of difference.

[randome]

22. So because Venezuela wanted a global economy...

...that makes the U.S. responsible for the global economy?

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[Gman]

46. I think you may have misread by post

[Major Hogwash]

53. Rule #1 at the DU3, Obama is responsible for everything!!

If you break a nail, it's Obama's fault.
If your sister gets knocked up, it's Obama's fault.
If the neighbor's fireworks display caused your house to catch on fire last night, it's Obama's fault.

[tblue]

191. Sorry. Nothing is Obama's fault.

Nada. Zilch. Rien. ???ό???. Niente. 少しも～ない. Nothing. He is without fault. Don't you DARE say that again.

[railsback]

24. If it was totally irrelevant

then Maduro wouldn't be seeking to increase exports.

[Gman]

44. Are you saying Maduro was selling oil?

There are plenty of countries that will buy their oil. LOL like they're going belly up if the US doesnt buy their oil or ag products. No, the US has little if any economic advantage here. Russia, China and India will more than necessary make up the difference. I think it's hilarious.

[railsback]

65. What's hilarious is thinking a country can rely solely on oil revenues

Maduro wouldn't show any interest in seeking to drastically increase exports, or being an observing nation of the Pacific Alliance (which is being run by the U.S.). Just being logical.

[Gman]

137. No, it's not funny at all

Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq and others do just fine. What? That's like saying the US going to embargo Iran's caviar and bring them to their knees?

[railsback]

148. Read up on Saudi Arabia

They're not dumb.

[totodeinhere]

64. Fine. Let us stop buying oil form them and see the price of gas at the pump shoot up.

I'm sure that the American people will be fine with that.

[railsback]

72. Yeah, that's pretty simplistic

Not exactly how the world works.

[totodeinhere]

118. Not really. Take away one of our major oil suppliers and see what happens. n/t

[railsback]

147. We have plenty of other resources for oil

Venezuela exports the biggest chunk of their output to the U.S. Cutting down 100,000 to 200,000 barrels would have a severe effect on their economy, already suffering from hyper inflation.

[MADem]

282. They are not a big part of our oil picture at all, and their contribution gets smaller every year.

They need us WAY more than we need them--we have the working refineries that refine their heavy, sour oil. Not all refineries can process that stuff. One of theirs recently blew up because they didn't maintain it properly. They're having the same problem getting their oil out of the ground--shitty maintenance, lousy management, corruption, graft and greed.

We could do without VZ oil and not even feel it, particularly as Canadian product enters the market in increasing capacity.

[totodeinhere]

306. We get about 5.9% of our oil from them. That might not sound like much but the way oil markets

work it is more significant than might seem obvious at first. And as far as their needing us goes, China can pick up the slack and they have the capacity to refine that type of oil.

[MADem]

308. We'd get more from Canada if we had the transshipment capability and refining capacity.

And that will happen, quick as a wink, if needs must. Canada has greater oil reserves than VZ, actually, and we get along better with them. Further, there are billions of gallons of oil under North Dakota and Montana, and we now have the capability to get to those. It will likely be worth our while to expand capacity in that area eventually--we were going to do it anyway, now is as good a time as any if shortages arise (and I don't think they will).

I did not know China could refine heavy sour oil at home in any appreciable bulk. My understanding is that most of their refinery capacity was acclimated towards Middle Eastern product, which is almost all sweet, and much of it light or medium grade. I know the Chinese had some heavy capability, but not a lot of heavy/sour capability--and I have a feeling VZ will have to deeply discount their prices if they expect China to bring their stinky, raw product all the way home. China has invested in a refinery in Costa Rica (I think) that has the ability to process regional (heavy/sour) oils, but I don't know its capacity.

That said, the Chinese would be better off taking control of some of VZ's failed refineries, and then demanding a cut of the product in exchange for their "benevolent management." In any event, the Venezuelans need buyers more than buyers need them. There just isn't an oil shortage anymore. The price is such that people aren't wasteful with the product like they used to be, and there's enough to go around.

Also, much of the oil that we "import" from VZ is turned into gasoline and motor oil...and we ship it right back to VZ. We do this because they don't have the refinery capacity. It's still called an "import" but we're not actually using or consuming the stuff. If we're not processing their stuff in our refineries, we can process Canada's....or our own.

[Gman]

86. You also assume that the oil companies given a choice between

Their profits and the US will choose the US. You are sadly mistaken.

[railsback]

149. They'll have NO choice with sanctions. See: Iran.

[Gman]

162. Good luck with that

as the rest of the world say, "I think we'll pass." Big difference.

[rpannier]

193. okay i see Iran. What do u want me to see

China Defiant on Iran Oil Purchases

BEIJING - The Chinese government has indicated it has no plans to change its position on oil purchases from Iran, a day after the United States left Beijing off a list of economies that are exempt from U.S. sanctions on Iranian oil imports.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Weimin Tuesday rejected a question about whether China will reduce its oil imports from Iran and said these purchases are necessary.

China needs to import crude oil from Iran, Liu said, because of its economic development, describing it as “a completely legal” matter. China's purchase channels are normal, open and transparent and do not violate United Nations resolutions or harm the interests of any other party, he added.

http://www.voanews.com/content/china-defiant-on-iran-oil-purchases/1206271.html


China buying oil from Iran with yuan

China is buying crude oil from Iran using its currency the yuan, an Iranian diplomat has said.

Oil transactions are usually settled in dollars but US sanctions make it difficult for Iran to accept payments in the US currency.

Iran is using the revenue to buy goods and services from China, Mohammed Reza Fayyad, Iran's ambassador to the United Arab Emirates, confirmed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17988142

China Oil Tanker Seen at Iran Port for First Time Since EU Ban

Exclusive: Indian shipping firms to carry Iran crude despite reduced insurance

[railsback]

203. Sanctions cut Iran's oil exports in half. Iraq now exports more.

[MjolnirTime]

9. He'll never make it there.

Sorry, fans.

[hrmjustin]

11. He can go by boat.

[winter is coming]

32. From Moscow? I think you need to find a different map-reading instructor. n/t

[hrmjustin]

38. Russia has ports.

look at the north country. Then there is the east coast of the nation.

[winter is coming]

41. To reach them, he'd have to leave the transit lounge and formally enter Russia. n/t

[hrmjustin]

43. I am sorry but I am ignorant on international law on this case. Has he not already entered Russia?

[winter is coming]

50. My understanding is that the transit lounge is a legalistic limbo and that he's "not"

in Russia.

[hrmjustin]

54. I am sure they can figure something out thast does not require them to go over US airspace.

[Gman]

57. In airports there are points where international travelers

Can change planes without going through customs. It may be on Russian soil, but its, if anything, considered part of the travel route without entering the country.

[hrmjustin]

59. Thanks!

[Gman]

63. Once you clear customs you have formally entered the country, or not

If you don't make it through as Snowden likely would not.

[hrmjustin]

71. So he is sleeping in the airport then. I should have been paying more attention.

Well then the problem because finding a flight plan to get him there.

[Gman]

77. That's what thought for a while until

I saw pictures of a really nice hotel that's part of this international area if the airport somehow.

It will be a challenge to get him out.

[totodeinhere]

105. Russia has already said that if he is transported in an embassy vehicle that vehicle would

not be considered Russian territory.

[winter is coming]

108. Ah. I'd missed that detail. Thanks. n/t

[allin99]

241. do you have a link for this?

[totodeinhere]

260. Here.

http://digitaljournal.com/article/353102

[allin99]

263. Thanks.

[quinnox]

28. It would really piss you off if he makes it there, wouldn't it

What an embarrassment to the United States, how could one man defy our big and bad selves...

[cali]

95. oh, I wouldn't bet on that, apologist dear.

[morningfog]

122. I think he will unless Obama scrambles jets.

[Gman]

12. I don't know if what he did was right or wrong but

I hope like hell he can get to Venezuela just to stick it up the secret government's ass.

Seems to me Venezuela is one of the safer places in Latin America for him to be. I think it would be a less likely chance there of getting snatched. Cuba would be best. Because rest assured, it will NOT be over. These assholes will try to snatch him. Count on it.

[idwiyo]

15. K&R !!!

[quinnox]

16. The plot thickens...

Excuse me, I mean, how dare Venezuela, that tiny South American foreign country full of insignificant brown people, oppose the will of the big and bad number one power in the world, the United States of America?! Just who do they think they are anyway? Damn them!!

[dixiegrrrrl]

47. Getting pert near uppity, ain't they?

The nerve......
And after all we DID for them.

[quinnox]

61. exactly, those ungrateful SOBs

and after we bought a ton of their oil too!

[mitchtv]

190. Oh My!

chuckle

[dixiegrrrrl]

210. I think I was channeling Paula Deen there, for a minute.

[truedelphi]

237. Now I am confused. Is the oil Venezuela has

Motor oil or Butter?

[MotherPetrie]

19. K&R

[ProSense]

30. Why didn't he take Snowden out of Russia when he was there?

Will Edward Snowden fly to Venezuela with President Nicolas Maduro?
http://www.mercurynews.com/nation-world/ci_23583906/will-edward-snowden-fly-venezuela-president-nicolas-maduro

[totodeinhere]

111. He had to return home and consult with other members of his government first. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

126. We hadn't pissed off all of Latin America at that point.

He now has pretty much everyone behind him.

[MannyGoldstein]

139. The White House hadn't forced down the plane of a head of state at that time

Mooning countries has consequences.

[ProSense]

155. That

"The White House hadn't forced down the plane of a head of state at that time"

...disn't happen, but we'll see what comes of this, won't we?

[Zorra]

31. I wonder if a certain

Argentine businessman by the name Ernst Schneithöhle is already sipping the perfect Mojito on a beach in los Roques.

[Catherina]

100. We were going to meet and hang out at the beaches remember?

Let's go my friend!

Ok, gotta calm down. He's not there yet. And maybe they'll never tell us. Does whoever gets him even have to own up that he's on their soil?

[Zorra]

192. Oh...I'm ready!

The Summer beach.


The Winter beach.

Maybe we will enjoy a few Mojitos and discuss world affairs with our new friend, Eddie!

[Catherina]

195. Yes lol!

He will need tour guides and Spanish lessons

[Zorra]

284. Muy cierto, hermana!

[Catherina]

294. Just let me know when

anytime after October! Gorgeous!

[magellan]

33. K&R

He could do it too, with the help of the Russians. They have long range aircraft that can avoid the need to fly over US-friendly countries...provided he isn't already in Bolivia, that is!

[quinnox]

45. true, but then you would have the "I hate Snowden!" crowd lobbying to engage the Russian plane

and risk World War III, just to get their man. Ok, maybe not, but I would not bet against it. Snowden has obviously driven some of these folks insane.

[HooptieWagon]

79. There's direct flights from Moscow to Havana.

From Havana its a short hop to Venezuela or Nicaragua.
Great circle route from Moscow to Havana probably just misses US overflight.

[quinnox]

85. good point

Havana seems like a good waypoint.

[Catherina]

101. airspace issues? Or did the Morales fiasco smooth all that out? n/t

[HooptieWagon]

127. Should be clear airspace...

The shortest route is a great circle. That probably takes the flight just north of Scotland, across the Atlantic, and gradually turning south and paralleling the NA coast, a couple hundred miles offshore. There will be overflight of Bahamas, but that shouldn't be a problem. Weather and location of jetstream could alter route a bit, though.

[Catherina]

131. HooptieWagon, I want to know everything lol! When he gets there, if he's there already etc n/t

[HooptieWagon]

145. LOL, we'll probably learn the news from you!

Good job posting news updates, and countering the mis-information campaign.

[pangaia]

268. UUEE to SVMI is 6162 NM great circle

A Falcon 900EX has a range of about 7400 NM--depending..usually stated in 'no wind condition and at gross weight. That might be the longest range 'private' jet. I'm not 100% sure..
You are right.. overflies Scotland which COULD be a problem. Also a few caribbean Islands. Seems to miss the Bahamas. Here is a link.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=UUEE+-+SVMI&DU=mi&SU=mph

Havana would be a tad closer if needed...

Bon voyage !

[HooptieWagon]

283. Aeroflot flies 5 weekly non-stop flights Moscow to Havana.

Boeing 767s and Airbus 330s. No reason not to take a commercial flight, at least that far. I doubt any country is going to force down a Russian commercial jet. Really dumb to do that. Cuba is very friendly with Venezuela and Nicaragua...I don't see why they wouldn't allow Snowden a plane transfer there.
I think Falcon range is shorter, I saw 5000 mi mentioned in an article. Falcon would probably need a fuel stop ....which would probably be Newfoundland. I don't think Canada would permit that due to pressure from US.

[Catherina]

154. I just saw your post. Yes indeed they could. This is awesome n/t

[magellan]

168. Mucho awesome!

And that's pretty much the extent of my Spanish apart from the curses my best friend taught me. lol

I hope he makes it. Moreso after what they did to Morales. To paraphrase another DUer on this thread, you couldn't write this stuff. No one would believe it!

[xiamiam]

39. k and r..i hope he is not in moscow and somehow already in south america

He's shown remarkable skills in being able to evade them for this long. At this point, nothing is going to surprise me.

[Warpy]

42. Their best bet might be to smuggle him on a cargo ship

The more comfortable transport is probably not going to work.

[Kolesar]

52. Venezuela gets to host the little snot and gets nothing for it

I was a defender of Hugo Chavez. This asylum, if it is true, does nothing to help the Venezuelan people. It just opens another wound with the USA.

[magellan]

66. Latin America can survive without the US and its brand of help. n/t

[HooptieWagon]

96. Yep. Since Obama gave SA the middle finger...

...I'm sure China and Russia are more than willing trade partners. Chomping at the bit even.
I wonder how many more continents Obama will piss off in remaining 3 1/2 years?

[allin99]

82. The wound was opened when the U.S. told other countries ...

that Snowden was on the President of Bolivia's plane.

[alcibiades_mystery]

62. "See, you know how to take the reservation, but you don't know how to HOLD the reservation..."

"And that's really the most important part of the reservation: the holding.

Anybody can just take 'em..."

President Maduro is just taking reservations.

[silvershadow]

153. Ok, that brought a belly-laugh. I miss that show.

[cali]

70. good. now here's hoping he gets there safely because

it's clear there's little the U.S. wouldn't do to stop it.

[winter is coming]

98. If they're clever, he's already somewhere in South America. n/t

[backscatter712]

74. KICK ASS!

Best way to go is to send a chartered plane to Moscow, with papers to make it a diplomatic plane, and openly escort Snowden to Venezuela under diplomatic protection. Just openly dare the U.S. to violate every treaty under the sun by intercepting him.

[xiamiam]

89. i think its more than just setting an example

and its already been said that he has given the un-encryption key ( or whatever its called) to others for the files he has yet to release in the event something happens to him. wtf is going on?

[allin99]

75. President of Venezuela yesterday: "Whoever picks a fight with Bolivia, picks a fight with Venezuela"

I guess so! lol.

link with the quote:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2013/07/20137555926652236.html

[magellan]

160. Nice! Thanks for sharing that

And since I don't think I've had the honor yet, welcome to DU!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

87. Bravo! Maybe Venezuela can give him citizenship and a passport like they attempted in Iceland.

[winter is coming]

93. I don't think a valid passport will stop the U.S. from trying to nab him en route. n/t

[allin99]

107. i don't see how they can do that without scrambling jets...

oh, well that was for a 29 year old hacker and ES is neither a hacker nor 29, so maybe they will.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

109. I don't know. The sledehammer style has landed them in Der Shitstorm as the Germans call it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3174936

[winter is coming]

115. And there are probably some advisors claiming that the shitstorm couldn't get any worse,

and the U.S. will look bad if they don't capture Snowden.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

125. Probably the same ones who advised him that it wouldn't occur at all.

[HipChick]

110. I think they will try to intercept him...there are probabely a few CIA agents staying in

that transit hotel...would not shock me

[CakeGrrl]

130. I would think so.

He's probably been on watch at least by the time it was made public he was in Hong Kong, probably before.

[HooptieWagon]

133. I'm sure the Russians know exactly whos in transit zone...

...and will escort Snowden directly on to the plane.
And even as ham-fisted Obama has been, I doubt hes stupid enough to force down a Russian commercial jet. But maybe he is...we shall see.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

144. Are they wearing blond wigs? Will Putin release them after they're arrested?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/redhanded-russia-catches-cia-spy-on-moscow-recruitment-mission-8615709.html


Red-handed? Russia ‘catches CIA spy on Moscow recruitment mission’

Shaun Walker on the scarcely believable tale of the wig-wearing diplomat expelled from Moscow

[totodeinhere]

114. President Obama already said that they would not try to do that.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/06/obama-not-scrambling-jets-to-get-a-29-year-old-hacker-named-snowden/

[LittleBlue]

99. Awesome! K&R!

Great news! Now let's hope he gets there before the CIA assassinates him.

[carolinayellowdog]

102. anyone who thought spy thrillers were passe is wrong

this is more convoluted than any LeCarre novel

[rury]

117. I hope the cowardly, treacherous, racist Snowden is arrested and tried

For his crimes.
He donated money to a white supremacist and now he's trying to embarrass a black president.
To me he's no better than the Bu$h war criminals who outed Valerie Plame.
He is as about as far as you can get from a "hero!"

[Catherina]

120. Just when you thought surveillance state lovers couldn't sink any lower. PLONK n/t

[quinnox]

124. wow, I feel the opposite, and consider him a modern day Paul Revere

[CakeGrrl]

134. Karma may eventually catch up

To someone who hates social well-being programs like Social Security the way Snowden does, a place like Venezuela may not be the Utopia that some wish for him.

[cali]

146. and President Obama has been pushing the chained CPI. So karma going to catch up

with him too?

gad. you guys just get increasingly sillier with every passing hour.

[CakeGrrl]

169. You seem very, very invested in protecting Snowden from ANY criticism

He has broken laws and he has a dubious political past.

People have the right to question his motives based on his documented previous actions and to NOT be a cheerleader for his theft of information and subsequent flight from responsibility.

You seem to be very bothered by dissenting opinion about him. Any particular reason?

[frylock]

229. you honestly believe that this whole thing is simply a plot to make obama look bad?

[Democracyinkind]

246. It seems to be the new narrative.

[backscatter712]

136. I'm with Catherina. *PLONK*

[quinnox]

143. LOL, I love the Star Trek clip there

excellent

[magellan]

223. lol, now I get the *plonk* reference!

Being married to a Brit, I thought it was short for plonker, someone behaving stupidly, as in "You're such a plonk." It's a gentle goad, not mean-spirited. But this kind of *plonk* is more fitting.

[backscatter712]

224. It was originally USENET slang.

Back in the early days of the internet, the *PLONK* was the sound of some douchebag falling to the bottom of your newsreader's kill file (an early ignore list.) Sort of the sound of getting dropped in a very deep bucket (USENET kill files get very long, very quickly, given their lack of moderation.)

[magellan]

225. Ah. Even more apt. Thanks! n/t

[cali]

138. .....

so over the top that it made me laugh.

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. Shall we talk prism?

Oh well...good bye

[NorthCarolina]

317. I think the goal for some around here is to supress ANY discussion of PRISM,

so in a nutshell if you don't have anything derogatory to say about Snowden, then it's preferred by the administration and their dispensers of propaganda that haunt these boards, that you don't say anything at all.

Of course if you resist the temptation to be silent, anything you do say will be promptly recorded and stored in case you ever become a nuisance that needs to be dealt with. Then that info will be retrieved and constitutionally manipulated to find you in breach of something-or-other.

[cherokeeprogressive]

218. Rery, rury?

[kentuck]

220. A DUzy!

[sibelian]

255. ...

[MNBrewer]

121. This is good news

I hope he will continue to "leak" the information that's damaging to the Surveillance State from Venezuela. My concern about Putin's offer was that he stop "leaking". Maximal damage to the Surveillance State is all to the good.

[99Forever]

129. So authoritarian apologists...

... how'd that dissin', threatening, bullying, and then lyin' about a foreign Head of State work out for ya?

[backscatter712]

142. I'll take "Blowback" for a thousand, Alex! n/t

[Catherina]

135. Just updated the OP with the video (Spanish) n/t

[CrispyQ]

140. I hope he makes it.

It's like watching one of the little kids in the school yard push back at the asshole bully.

[Recursion]

141. Good

The sooner and more quietly this happens, the better.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. Venezuela and Nicaragua

Blowback to a certain AF-1 being pulled down

[HooptieWagon]

157. When he makes it, hes still not in the clear though.

He'll still have to constantly watch his back. Lots of CIA and DEA assets in Venezuela and Nicaragua. They might view a successful hit as a good career booster.

[nadinbrzezinski]

159. That goes without saying

[HooptieWagon]

172. I was mistaken for CIA when I was in Venezuela.

This was 20 years ago, before Chavez. It was the best spanish I ever spoke, explaining to a half dozen soldiers pointing AKs at me that I was merely tourista de bota. My companion, a Caracas based publisher, was screaming insults at them. That terrified me more than anything.
We were driving from Puerto La Cruz to Caracas. The highway (one-lane) goes through the mountains, where there was guerilla activity at the time. Army check points every few miles. We were in a 4x4 Toyota van (4 wheel drive popular with the guerillas). Gear sticking out of my bag looked somewhat weaponish, and then when I showed my US passport they freaked out.

[woo me with science]

152. Excellent news!

It is good to hear he has some choices. Now to get him there safely...

[UTUSN]

156. Bwah-ha-HAH!1 Let it BE!1 Let it HAPPEN!1 Let it whatEVER!1

*********QUOTE********

http://ggsidedocs.blogspot.com.br/2013/01/frequently-told-lies-ftls.html

[font size=5]Frequently Told Lies (FTLs)[/font]

by Glenn GREENWALD

.... I'm a right-wing libertarian
Ever since I began writing about politics back in 2005, people have tried to apply pretty much every political [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]label[/FONT] to me. It’s almost always [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]a shorthand method to discredit someone without having to engage the substance[/FONT] of their arguments. It’s the classic [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]ad hominem[/FONT] fallacy: you don’t need to listen to or deal with his arguments because he’s an X. ....

**********UNQUOTE**********

[flamingdem]

175. Welcome to your LIbertarian Retraining Camp in Caracas Eddie

Hope you like the peoples revolution. Hint you will not. Snowden is such a patsy and a sweat rag to assange maduro putin greenwald etc

[99th_Monkey]

161. I love that Venezuela is the one stepping up on this ~nt

[flamingdem]

178. Me too. Shows what a joke this is Snowden despises big government

He wil have to wear a.mask as well as security hood

[99th_Monkey]

239. Where do you look to find out what Venezuela is REALLY like?

besides Free Republic ... from all appearances.

[flamingdem]

244. No, I look at my experience in Cuba, there are many similarities and I experienced

eavesdropping, visits by the Ministry of the Interior, being dragged to police stations due to the simple act of walking with black friends, and all kinds of things that would send any US Citizen through the roof as far as civil liberties go. Venezuela is not the same but they've borrowed much from Cuba.
I understand the reasons why they do. A libertarian won't accept the justifications

If you haven't lived in Venezuela for at least a year, fluent in Spanish I don't think you can weigh in at all about the country. Have you? It's funny how time in the place can change your politics, especially when you feel the weight of another legal system

[99th_Monkey]

279. No, I have never been to Venezuela

Though I'd love to, if I could afford such things .. however I
do not feel this somehow "disqualifies" me from having a well-
informed opinion about the ongoing Venezuelan socialist
experiment.

Part of how I came to believe what I believe about Venezuelan
politics is from watching this amazing documentary, by a film
crew that just happened to be guests in Chavez's Presidential
Villa when the CIA-inspired coup attempt occurred, so they
just kept their cameras rolling, all the way through the entire
failed coup affair, exposing the incredible solidarity and love
of the poor for Chavez and what he represented.

I'm just happy that the era of US Puppet-states in Latin America,
led by corrupt & brutal dictators, are becoming a thing of the past.

Transitioning to healthy democracies from such a past is not easy or
without it's own risks and downsides, but the statistics as to poverty
levels, health care and education for the underclasses are pretty much
indisputable; i.e. the poor in Venezuela & Cuba, for example, are much
better off.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/oct/04/venezuela-hugo-chavez-election-data#_

[HooptieWagon]

286. I was there about 20 yrs ago, before Chavez.

Much poverty and crime, but people were wonderful. Thousands of poor people living in tarpaper shacks and cardboard crates in Caracas. Chavez arranged for cinderblocks and cement so poor people could build themselves better housing. He also arranged for Cuban doctors to live in Venezuela to provide free medical care for the poor. Controversial, he confiscated unused agricultural land and gave it to poor people to grow their own food...although cost of living is very inexpensive by US standards.
I understand crime is still a problem, but no question that Chavez made big strides in bringing up the standard of living for a majority of Venezuelans.

[Warren Stupidity]

290. Cuba: traditional 1960's vintage communist state. Venezuela: democratic socialists republic.

Other than both governments are ruling from the left they have very little in common. Venezuela is a democracy, Cuba is not. Venezuela, despite propaganda to the contrary, has a vibrant private sector, Cuba is experimenting with limited market based enterprises, and that only in the last few years. Cuba is a police state, Venezuela, despite what you've been told, is not. Cuba is dirt poor with few natural resources and its agricultural export economy crippled by the 50 year economic embargo by the US. Venezuela has a vast oil resource that provides, like other oil exporting nations, a base level of economic stability.

[DeSwiss]

163. K&R

[center]Oh, the weather from Washington is spiteful
Venezuelan citizenship is so delightful
And now that he has a place to go
Let it Snowden! Let it Snowden! Let it Snowden![/center]

[flamingdem]

170. How undignified nt

[Catherina]

173. Breaking: White House: no comment on Venezuela's asylum offer

White House: no comment on Venezuela's asylum offer to Snowden

WASHINGTON | Fri Jul 5, 2013 9:09pm EDT

(Reuters) - The White House on Friday declined comment on an offer of asylum for former U.S. spy contractor Edward Snowden from Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro, referring questions on the matter to the U.S. Justice Department.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/06/us-usa-security-venezuela-whitehouse-idUSBRE96500I20130706

[Little Star]

261. So much for the "I welcome this conversation" crap.

[xiamiam]

285. the silence is deafening..and shocking actually

I keep waiting for some backpedaling or other lame excuse which I wont believe.. but nothing, just silence is ridiculous

[20score]

176. Good!

[Number23]

179. lol! Works for me!! See ya, Eddie

[flamingdem]

182. Hasta la vista snowball

.. As his libertarian dreams melt into the blazing Sudamerican sun

[840high]

180. Good.

[bvar22]

181. Venezuela is a stunningly beautiful country,

....with stunningly beautiful people.
I will be forever grateful for the time I was able to spend in Venezuela,
and the opportunity to get off the path and see the REAL Venezuela.
I fell in LOVE with this place.

Our neighbors in Latin America have given us a successful Blue Print for "CHANGE".
When the US Working Class & Poor realize we have more in common with each other
than we have in common with the Ruling 1% and their Mouth Pieces in Washington,
then WE can have "change" too!


VIVA Democracy!!!!
I pray we get some here soon!

[font size=3]Run, Eddie, RUN!![/font]
Don't let those sick bastards catch you!
You're gonna LOVE Venezuela!

[Catherina]

184. Yes indeed he is! I love that country

In a few years, we'll be moving there for good. Right now, I go as often as possible to visit relatives and just love it. It is nothing like the US press says.

[mitchtv]

206. never been sad to say

but I know the beautiful Andes country on the entire west coast I love everywhere I've been in SA. tho Uruguay is a gem. thanks for the updates all we get is Zimmeman trial.

[Catherina]

227. I haven't visited that region yet

I hope it can happen in a few months when a friend comes down. The films I saw of it were stunning. Lucky you. Did you live there?

[mitchtv]

273. kind of hung around

and visit when I can. I hitchhiked from Colombia to BsAs and took the train/bus back, just missed the CIA sponsored murder of Grl Rene Schneider in Chile,I was in Lima. Bolivia had 4 president in 48 hrs. We almost didn't get out of Puno in Peru with the barricades on the streets. each country was stunningly beautiful, but since I was poor and uneducated I had to come back to support myself, ( and smuggle my Arg lover across the border(statute of limitations apply)

[Catherina]

287. You were there during exciting times!

I'm jealous lol. I'm also sorry you couldn't stay but you got your lover across. WOW!

What's BsAs?

[mitchtv]

288. Buenos Aires of course,

during the military times , once my US passport got me and my party of Argentine gays a pass, during a roundup, it was lucky.In Lima I got caught up in a raid on a coffee house. Luckily I was with the son of a general, and two aristocrat girls. Had to run for my life in the barrio above La Paz, those were the days(when I could run uphill at 12k feet above sea level!

[Catherina]

299. I'm having flashbacks of the Motorcycle Diaries lol

Have you written your memoirs? It sounds like you have fascinating stories to share

[bvar22]

274. The ignorant fantasies from the bigoted, close minded, conservative DUers above...

...were very revealing.
They know NOTHING about our World and the Peoples who live here.
This thread has stuff in it that rivals the bottom of the scum barrel at Free Republic.

Nauseating, IN-you-Face IGNORANCE up thread,
and they are acting like they are PROUD of their ignorance.

They are smearing it on their faces, pointing to it,
and congratulating each other.

I don't understand it,
but it makes me sad.

[rso]

185. snowden

This is an issue where I part ways with my DU friends. I am a progressive who joined DU last year and enjoyed reading posts and opinions from like-minded individuals. However, I most vigorously disagree with the Snowden love-fest that I see here. He is nothing but a self-serving, headline hunter who admits that he obtained his job for the sole purpose of betraying the Nation. He escaped to China and is now in Moscow. Of course, we all know that China and Russia are beacons of freedom and transparency !. If he had genuinely committed his act for idealistic reasons, he would have turned himself in. But Snowden is in it for the fame, the headlines and for what he hopes will be a comfortable life somewhere in exile. I sincerely hope that his escape plans fail and that he is brought back to the US to face justice.

[hardcover]

240. I'm with you

I'm shocked at the support for this traitor on this thread.

[Kurovski]

242. You both look exactly alike. How perfect is that?

I don't think there is any definitive proof that he's a traitor. But John Wayne would just say so anyway.

I support the revelations. that's what most DUers support, bottom line. So your shock over support of Snowden is...weird, pointless.

[flamingdem]

187. Venezuela and Cuba 2 peas in a pod. Minit in cuba taps calls. You want authoritarian?

That is the hypocrisy of this situation. Get to. Know about it to laugh at the idea of privacy under a real authoritarian government

[Galraedia]

189. Wait...I THOUGHT THIS WASN'T ABOUT SNOWDEN.

So if a a thread is 100% PRO-SNOWDEN it's OKAY

Anything that is not 100% PRO-SNOWDEN is NOT OKAY and is seen as ATTACKING THE MESSENGER by Snowden's cult following.

Gotcha.

[djean111]

196. I don't think this thread is really about Snowden himself.

To me, this thread is about machinations of all the countries involved.
There are comments here that are anti-Snowden.

[CakeGrrl]

197. Looks

to be the case.

[backscatter712]

208. Snowden's become a symbol. Embrace it.

He's a symbol of resistance to the surveillance-industrial complex.

And his story's got us hooked.

You know what I think?

I'm gonna roll with it!

Just with the caveat that when you talk about Snowden, brink up NSA and PRISM.

We can't waste a good symbol, can we?

And damned fucking straight I'm going to fucking cheer him on. All the bashers can suck my dick!

[SunSeeker]

314. "All the bashers can suck my dick!" Is that what passes for discussion on DU now? nt

[kentuck]

215. Is it about Snowden, the NSA, or the Constitution?

Insomuch as many believe Snowden is on the side of our Constitution moreso than the NSA, then it is about Snowden's present predicament.

[sibelian]

247. Well, we TRIED, honey, really, truly, we really, truly did try... but...

You know.... some people, people inordinately fond of links, just don't seem to be able to let go...

[RedCappedBandit]

295. This is about South American nations standing up to the US, imo.

Snowden is an afterthought afaic.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

209. There are times I love what my Goverment does, then they are times I love when other countries

flip off Washington and tell them to go get fucked.

Chavez did it all the time!

[stevenleser]

212. If true, I guess we'll see how bad the US is.

Snowden better hope that Obama and the US are not nearly as bad as the place whose airport he chose to hole up in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko

Alexander Litvinenko was a former officer of the Russian Federal Security Service, FSB and KGB, who fled from court prosecution in Russia and received political asylum in the United Kingdom. According to his wife and father, he was working for MI6 and MI5 after receiving the asylum.

In the UK, Litvinenko became a journalist for a Chechen separatist site, Chechenpress. Litvinenko wrote two books, Blowing up Russia: Terror from within and Lubyanka Criminal Group, where he accused the Russian secret services of staging Russian apartment bombings and other terrorism acts to bring Vladimir Putin to power.

On 1 November 2006, Litvinenko suddenly fell ill and was hospitalized. He died three weeks later, becoming the first confirmed victim of lethal polonium-210-induced acute radiation syndrome. According to doctors, "Litvinenko's murder represents an ominous landmark: the beginning of an era of nuclear terrorism".

Subsequent investigations by British authorities into the circumstances of Litvinenko's death led to serious diplomatic difficulties between the British and Russian governments. Unofficially, British authorities asserted that "we are 100% sure who administered the poison, where and how", but they did not disclose their evidence in the interest of a future trial. The main suspect in the case, a former officer of the Russian Federal Protective Service (FSO), Andrei Lugovoy, remains in Russia. As a member of the Duma, he now enjoys immunity from prosecution. Before he was elected to the Duma, the British government tried to extradite him without success.

[dbackjon]

214. Why the celebration?

Venezuela is more repressive regime


Stupid to cheer this

[Galraedia]

234. Still wont faze Snowden's cult following as he hops from one authoritarian country to the next...

Anti-American activism is like an orgasm to his fanbase.

[kentuck]

235. They could be cheering for the NSA...

and against America and our Constitution. Everybody has to choose a side.

[ProSense]

216. Will Venezuela follow through on Snowden offer?

Will Venezuela follow through on Snowden offer?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023180464

[Rain Mcloud]

217. Is that fireworks?

or is it the Koch Bro's heads detonating?

[Catherina]

228. heads exploding lol n/t

[suffragette]

233. I was visiting with family and came back and lo and behold!

K&R

[Catherina]

269. Here's to hoping Edward Snowden will soon be able to see his girlfriend!

[SunSeeker]

315. I'm hoping the minimum wage gets raised and arbortion rights are protected.

But to each his own.

[Judi Lynn]

248. Great thread, Catherina. Thank you. n/t

[rtracey]

253. good

Good riddance, hope you enjoy your ummmm freedom of never coming back to your home...heros don't run away dude, they stand up for what they believe in and fight, not being a little pussy and hide behind a computer screen and the diplomatic pouch of a Latin country. I remember another group of "patriots" who when trouble it ran off to Argentina......

[7962]

319. I feel the same way. If youre gonna blow the whistle, do it on your own turf

Dont give it away to enemies of the state.
I wonder if he really knows how he'll be living in a year or so. I think he's very naive.

[celticnachos]

264. Awesome news!

[gopiscrap]

276. That ought to be interesting

[Progressive dog]

278. No more Hong Kong Eddie, he's moving

to anyplace that will take him.
Bye bye Hong Kong Eddie.

[Katashi_itto]

297. K&R!

[midnight]

298. K&R will read later..

[limpyhobbler]

300. awesome news. love it. nt

[Catherina]

302. Just updated the OP with a link to the immedate extradition request and the extradition treaty

and shortly afterwards, an extradition request was sent to Venezuela. Full text of the extradition request here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jul/06/us-request-extradition-edward-snowden


Unfortunately for the US, the 1922 US/Venezuela extradition treaty excludes political crimes and can be declined in many cases. Then there's that pesky matter of all the anti-Castro and anti-Chavez terrorists, assassins, bankers and other trash that the US has refused to extradite.

[LovingA2andMI]

305. K/R~~~

Number 150 and proud of it! Go Snowden go!