Zimmerman Defense Attorney: ‘Trayvon Martin Did, In Fact, Cause His Own Death’

[kpete]

Treyvon caused his own death by being black and walking after dark, (in his own neighborhood) without Zimmerman's permission, and defending himself against the stranger who approached him with a gun.

truthfully, i am not watching any of this....

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/07/06/2261201/zimmerman-defense-attorney-trayvon-martin-did-in-fact-cause-his-own-death/

[warrior1]

1. I wonder how this is playing with the jury.

[Callmecrazy]

40. The jury never heard it...

They had been dismissed for the day.

[Ruby the Liberal]

41. Yes, the jury certainly did hear it

That wasn't the first time he made that allegation on Friday. It was his THIRD.

They were in the courtroom where he was badgering Sybrina to agree with him about Trayvon causing his own death. I watched it live and could not believe how callous he was.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023174362

[lumpy]

51. The defense failed to explain how Martim managed to cause his own death.

I certainly would like to hear that sort of rationalization ?????

[Ruby the Liberal]

57. He shouldn't have run smack into Zippy's gun?

Not sure - but this week will likely be a true circus.

[Voice for Peace]

119. he has explained it many times, it just is bullshit.

Trayvon Martin attacked Zimmerman, without
any provocation whatsoever. Zimmerman was
attempting to return to his car to wait for police,
when suddenly and with no warning, Trayvon
jumped out of the bushes and punched
him in the nose, knocked him down on the ground,
pummeled him repeatedly on his face, bashed
his head into the concrete somewhere between
10 and a zillion times, told Z it was his (Z's)
time to die, and so on and so forth.

That's how Martin caused his own death.
According to them.

[JackN415]

2. He reminds me of the subtext of Al Pacino/Keanu Reeves' The Devil's Advocate...

Do lawyers like him go home eat, drink, and be merry like nothing happens? may be devils are real after all.

[pipi_k]

6. You know, years ago...

I wondered the same thing.

How can these guys live with themselves...

But if you look at it in a larger sense, their job is to force the state to prove a defendant's guilt.

Without defense attorneys, any of us could be charged with a crime by the government and have absolutely NO protection at all. If the government says we're guilty, then we're guilty.

Really...isn't that a better deal than being charged with a crime and having a "trial" in front of a tribunal whereby everyone knows how it will end?

[Voice for Peace]

121. you are too kind.

it's not necessary for lawyers to be slimy or
hostile creeps. otherwise you are absolutely
right.. good point.

[pipi_k]

3. So...

I don't agree with him on that.


But, OTOH...

He's a defense attorney. Not sure what else he's supposed to say.

His job is to defend his client, as distasteful as people may find his statement

It's just all so tragic and senseless

[Politicalboi]

19. It should be just the facts

They shouldn't be able to twist things like they do. If I were arrested for a crime, and I know I didn't do it, I would rather have an attorney who focuses on the facts. It's attorneys like these clowns and Johnny Cockroach that get away with twisting things. Had the cops planted evidence for OJ, they would face the death penalty. Both were going to retire soon, so framing OJ was ridiculous. And the Mark Furman shit shouldn't have been allowed. OJ was guilty, IMO. It was just a jury that didn't look at ALL the evidence, and wanted to go home. 9 months of evidence, and they decide in an hour and a half. Itto should have fined each juror, and called a mistrial. Especially when the jury foreman Brenda Moran says "We was deliberated". That was just

[KinMd]

32. Alan Dershowitz said if there were only innocent clients..

there would be 12 lawyers in the country

[pipi_k]

38. From what I've seen

over the years, both sides get somewhat...creative...with the facts.

There are prosecutors who can make Jesus look guilty, and defense lawyers who can make Satan look innocent.

Nature of the job...

[Bodhi BloodWave]

97. considering your sentence, allow me to toss in one of my favorite quotes :)

A man who was handsome, intelligent, and elegant, was asked who he was. "I am the Devil", he replied. "But that cannot be," said the questioner, "for the Devil is evil and ugly!" "My friend," was the reply, "you have been listening to my detractors."

[lumpy]

55. I watched the entire OJ debacle..and it was a circus of a trial.

The jury might have had the verdict in mind before they even took a seat. The defense was on their toes with every trick in the trade. The evidence all led to OJ's guilt. I expect there were many many people who had satisfaction that some sort of justice was served.

[riverwalker]

83. Kardashian was the worst

and now his daughters have a TV show, go figure. Maybe West and his ice cream idiots are hoping to do the same.

[lumpy]

52. Some attorneys are underhanded. That is no reason to put forth statements

that don't make any sense in hopes that some on the jury might not have much ability or perception.

[Voice for Peace]

123. the entire defense is an insult to the jury's intelligence.

in my opinion.

[Ruby the Liberal]

4. And he hasn't even really gotten started yet

Two quick witnesses to "discredit" Sybrina's testimony then the show is his starting in the morning.

[jwirr]

5. Well I guess that ends the idea of going for a walk in our neighborhoods. To dangerous - we may be

causing our own deaths. That is idiotic.

[superpatriotman]

7. What if...

Trayvon had disarmed and killed Zimmerman in self defense? Would there be charges?

Stand Your Ground allows self defense on both sides, and surely an armed individual who is trying to kill me could be disarmed and killed by his own weapon.

[magical thyme]

8. I trust this was not in front of the jury, but in the motion to dismiss,

which failed.

But I do hope they are stupid and arrogant enough to say that to a jury of 6 women, at least some of whom have probably been followed by some predator-creep at one time or another in their lives. Because I know I have been followed by a predator-creep, and I know that I did, in absolute desperation to protect my home, turn and confront him before leading him to my home. And I know for a fact that the creep who is following, and in Martin's case, chasing and killing is the *only* one to blame. You chase somebody to ground, expect a fight to the death because that is what you are looking for.

Jeantel's lies all point to somebody hoping to avoid pain and public humiliation.

Whereas Zimmerman's known lies, every one that I'm aware of has been intended to make it look like self-defense. All of them.

And there are numerous claims that don't "add up," such as his claim to having his head bashed repeatedly but the injuries just not supporting that, also point toward him trying to make it look like self-defense.

[TorchTheWitch]

9. He actually asked Trayvon's mother that

when she was being questioned about the screaming voice. I'm sure that made the jury of 5 women, most if not all of whom are mothers, go over bigger than the lead balloon the knock knock joke did.

Neither of these defense attorneys seem to be able to see it when they say things that will obviously piss off any jury. The most difficult thing about being a defense attorney is trying to discredit any witness that makes the client look bad while still not making the jury hate you. Neither O'Mara nor West seemed to ever get that one figured out. Very early in the trial I can't see how these two didn't manage to have the jury totally despising them yet they continue to dig themselves deeper in that vein.

[Ruby the Liberal]

10. That clip was the motion to dismiss argument, THIS one is him badgering Sybrina

to try to get her to say it with him, "Trayvon caused his own death".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023174362

[RGR375]

65. If Zimmerman's story is true he may very well have.

[Ruby the Liberal]

68. Define. Exactly how did this kid cause his own death.

We are all ears.

[RGR375]

76. If and i said if

Zimmerman's story is true and martin doubled back around and confronted him. Then punched him in the nose and got on top and started beating him. Then yes he did. If he had zimmerman in that position he would have triggered the use of deadly force.

[yardwork]

80. No. IF all that had happened, Zimmerman would have been justified in punching Martin or pushing him.

We know that Zimmerman didn't do that because his lily white hands are clean as a baby's in the photos after he murdered Martin. Zimmerman didn't bother to try to fight Martin. He didn't need to get his hands dirty. He just shot the kid dead.

[RGR375]

96. This is what I'm talking about

Learn your states self defense laws. Once you put your hands on somebody and put them in a certain position scenario you may cook your own goose. that is the point I'm trying to make . You do not have to have a scratch on you.

[yardwork]

100. I don't think you understood my post.

My point is that if Zimmerman actually was attacked by Martin (which I don't believe for one minute, since Zimmerman was the one with the gun who had been pursuing Martin), then why didn't he fight back? Why did he pull out his gun and shoot the kid dead?

Martin was armed with iced tea and a bag of candy. Suppose he hit Zimmerman. Why didn't Zimmerman hit back, instead of using lethal force?

Zimmerman is a coward.

[Voice for Peace]

126. he couldn't fight back because he had only one hand.

his other hand he had to keep on the gun.
so he probably felt really helpless trying to
protect himself one-handed.

[RGR375]

135. Coward pussy (sorry) I understand

But My point is that is irrelevant under the law. If he was on the bottom getting beat and was in fear of death or great bodily harm then he could use deadly force. It may not matter under the law how he ended up in that position just that he was there. Now i must go to bed, early day. I would like to continue this another time. But for now good night Yardwork.

[Ruby the Liberal]

99. So "SYG" only goes for those with firearms?

No such thing as standing your ground if provoked by an unidentified stranger in the dark at dinnertime?

[yardwork]

103. Not if you're wearing a hoodie. It's a little known Florida law.

[Ruby the Liberal]

109. Noted.

*sigh*

[RGR375]

137. No

You can kill with a paper clip if you have to.

[yardwork]

71. Nothing about Zimmerman's story is true. He's been caught in lie after lie.

[RGR375]

84. Sorry man

I watched the trial all last weak and all the prosecution did was support his case. I mean the talking heads are ready to slit their wrists because they are afraid he will walk. Look at Florida's law and ask yourself why did they not go the normal route to a grand jury?

[yardwork]

86. I'm a woman, and I noticed that you didn't respond to my post.

Who cares what the talking heads say. The prosecutor didn't have to go to grand jury. "All the prosecution did was support his case" is talking head talk.

[RGR375]

92. No offense please accept my apology i did not see your post and i mean that.

Most self defense shootings go to a grand jury if there is a question if they are justified. That way time and trouble is not wasted on a trial. In florida if they took the case to the grand jury and zimmerman was no billed. He would have been immune to prosecution and civil law suit. They did not go to the grand jury because they did not have the evidence and he would have been no billed. They wanted to take him to court and hopefully they could get a jury to convict. But the evidence they have still would not have made it past a grand jury.

[yardwork]

95. No offense taken. It doesn't bother me to be mistaken for male, just wanted to clarify.

We're all the same here behind the computer.

I disagree with you about this case. I think that there is no evidence justifying what Zimmerman did. He's been caught in a huge lie - that Martin slammed his head "20 or 30 times against the concrete sidewalk." That's blatantly false and calls everything else Zimmerman says into question.

To believe Zimmerman you have to believe that he was in fear for his life. I can't see that at all. Martin was in fear for his life, for good reason.

[RGR375]

114. We do disagree

I have no problem with that or do i think you are wrong on some of your views. I can see an honest jury coming back with manslaughter or acquitting on self defense. depending on how certain things are viewed. My point in posting in these forums is that most people have no idea how wide the latitude is in some states when it comes to self defense.

[Just Saying]

120. The laws are too lax.

This case is a prime example of that and hopefully will be a catalyst for change.

Just because you have the right to carry a gun shouldn't give you the righ to play cop or use it because you start something you can't finish.

[Voice for Peace]

127. This judge seems to be comfortable that the prosecution has a case for 2nd degree murder.

The prosecution has an elegantly simple and solid case.
The defense is just trying to make it muddy.

[Punkingal]

79. Good grief!!!!!

He did not cause his own death. An idiot with a gun caused it. I don't know how anyone can say someone caused their murder, especially to the victim's mother. The real punk was the one with the gun who should have stayed in his damn truck. That is who caused Trayvon's murder.

[Scootaloo]

110. "If Zimmerman's story is true"

That's a really gigantic "if" at work, there.

[hfojvt]

11. "defending himself against a stranger who approached him"

Most people are approached by strangers all the time, without feeling the need to "defend" themselves by going on offense.

Trayvon - he approached me, so I had to defend myself
Zimmerman - he had me pinned to the ground and he was pounding on me, so I had to defend myself

Seriously?

Trayvon had over a one minute head start, and he could not have just jogged home? A person being followed needs to defend themself, but a person pinned to the ground does not?

The defense argument is that Trayvon caused his own death by punching Zimmerman, knocking him to the ground and continuing to attack him. Not by being black. Not by walking at night, but by assaulting somebody and battering somebody.

Tragic as it is for a young person to die, it happened because of his own choices.

He chose to not run home,
He chose instead to attack.

In the advice of Robert Heinlein "Never frighten a little man. He'll kill you."

[yardwork]

13. There's no evidence that Martin laid a hand on Zimmerman

As for the question, "Why didn't Martin just go home?" - everything indicates that he was trying to do that until a 200 pound man accosted him and shot him dead.

[kudzu22]

16. Apart from the bloody head and broken nose

Are you saying that 17 year old athletic teen can't outrun a 200 lb tub of lard with a minute head start?

Sorry there's a lot of holes in the state's narrative, and plenty of reasonable doubt. None of this would have happened if GZ weren't at least a little racist, but that doesn't equate to murder.

[Rex]

17. There was no DNA from Zimmerman on Martins hands or body and he had no open wounds

on his hands, so there is NO evidence that Martin hit or beat up Zimmerman.

[kudzu22]

18. So what caused Z's injuries?

Touching something doesn't always leave DNA. And John Good actually saw TM on top of GZ raining down punches. Or is he lying too?

[Rex]

20. Well witnesses say two different things, are you going to believe one and not the other?

Touching someone? Funny I thought it was more like 'he was slamming his head against the concrete'. I wish people would make up their minds.

[kudzu22]

21. What witness said anything different?

Moya saw GZ on top but AFTER the shot, which is exactly consistent with GZ's story. Good was 15' away and the only one to have a clear view. Also says the guy in red on the bottom was the one screaming. That, plus GZ's injuries, plus GZ's account to the cops, all add up to a pretty strong case for self-defense.

I want to be clear, I do not think GZ is without blame here. TM would be alive if GZ hadn't thought a black teen was "suspicious". But it doesn't add up to murder and it doesn't negate self-defense.

[Rex]

22. Why do you assume GZ got his wounds from Martin? They could not have come

from falling down in the rain? Why did GZ refuse medical treatment? I've read contradicting reports as to who was on top and who was on bottom. I think there is a strong case for second degree murder and I think that will be the verdict.

GZ has constantly changed his story, so it is no surprise that most think he is a liar.

[kudzu22]

24. So he hit both the front and the back of his head from falling down?

And that seems a reasonable explanation? I do think TM initiated the physical confrontation. If he thought a creepy guy was following him he could easily outrun GZ especially given his head start. I don't see GZ chasing down anyone who isn't on crutches. Also remember GZ gave his story without knowing what any witness had seen. And when the cops told him they had video of the whole thing, his reaction was "thank God." That's not the reaction of someone who made up the whole story.

I predict acquittal. I give a 50/50 on the Martin family's civil suit against GZ, because he is at least partly at fault. Just not a murderer.

[Rex]

25. Ya I think if there is an acquittal, they family might try a 'wrongful death' lawsuit.

Kinda like OJ was not a murderer imo. We shall see what unfolds.

[GreenStormCloud]

134. If Z is aquitted, FL law gives him immunity from civil suit. N/T

[lumpy]

60. What video are you taking about? The video of the murder or what; videos of

witness statements ?

[kudzu22]

108. There was no video, but the cops told him there was

as part of an interview technique to get him to change his story. If someone is lying and then told there is video contradicting them, they frequently change key parts of their story. They don't say "thank God!"

[Voice for Peace]

129. would you have expected him to say "uh oh, I'm in trouble!"

?

He probably knew exactly what to say
for the self defense claim.. having studied
the subject and gotten an A.

[lumpy]

42. An eye witness saw who had to be on top the last few minutes before the shot.

She saw 2 people struggling on the ground, then the shot. Right after the shot the person on top of the other got up and walked away and left behind a motionless person on the ground......in other words, there were 2 people, both living on the ground moving, then a shot and the shooter, gun still in hand, arises from the dead person on the ground. If this witness is to be believed, there is no doubt who had the upper hand in the struggle on the ground. The person who had his adversary secured could have gotten up and walked or ran away without leaving a dead person behind. There were other options besides using the cowards way out by using a gun.
Putting all this shit together, Zimmerman's embellishing of the truth to further make his case, his reckless pursuit of the victim, his reasons for wanting to nab a criminal made for a tragic death of a young person who was screaming to save his life.
I'll say it again, Zimmerman was craving celebrity and heroism, his selfish reason for taking this tragic route was the reason behind the entire tragic affair.

[GreenStormCloud]

139. There is a huge problem with her testimony.

She says that the person on bottom was face down, then she heard three shots. That would mean TM was shot in the back three times. But he was only shot in the front once, and only one shot was fired. On cross examination she was aked how she could reconcile the difference between her testimony and the physical reality. She replied that she can't.

You can be sure that the defense will use that to discredit her entire testimony.

[Ed Suspicious]

28. 17 year old minding business with a hand full of snacks and a cell phone ends up dead after

confrontation he didn't start. THE END.

[kudzu22]

30. No argument that he was minding his own business

But someone threw the first punch and I don't see how it could be GZ, unless TM waited for him.

[lumpy]

45. Obviously Zimmerman was not incapacitated ( if Zimmerman's account is the truth).

Zimmerman was able to get on top of his prey, pinning him down on the ground and like a coward, shot him. If he not had a gun what would have been his recourse? Maybe he would have taken the help that was offered by the resident to secure the his victim. But he did have a gun, easier to kill his victim rather than continue the struggle that he created.

[lumpy]

63. Rational thinking says that Zimmerman got his bloody nose when Zimmerman

had Martin pinned on the ground struggling before Zimmerman shooting him. Most likely Zimmerman was trying to make an arrest on Martin when he caught up with him ; Martin questioned Zimmermans authority and decided to leave; Zimmerman went after Martin and threw him to the ground ; Martin struggled to get away screaming (perhaps he saw Zimmerman's gun); Martin threw a punch to Zimmerman's nose in the struggle ( perhaps that is when Zimmrman was in fear for his life) so to end his fears Zimmerman pulled the trigger.

[Ron Quixote]

43. It's debatable who started the confrontation

No one knows who threw the first punch.

[Just Saying]

122. I think the confrontation started

When Zimmerman decided to chase down an unarmed kid trying to walk home.

[nenagh]

31. Only problem with the tub of lard statement, IIRC, is that his physician's assistant testified

that Mr Zimmerman told the clinic that he was doing mixed martial arts training 3 times weekly for 3 hours each session
for aerobic exercise.

[kudzu22]

33. I'll wager I could outrun Zim given that head start

and I am pretty far out of shape LOL.

[nenagh]

34. It's pretty hard to believe looking at the man today... but I must say as a Canadian...

that I was astounded by the amount of recorded information the medical people had.

I don't think here that my Dr would have recorded such detailed notes.

The physician's assist. must have quite the intricate medical record system on their computers.

Amazing ...

[kudzu22]

35. I agree that was surprising.

Makes me wonder what's in my medical file and if it will ever be used against me if (God forbid) I'm ever involved in a criminal case.

[Nine]

37. You sound skeptical.

When I go to the doctor they always have me fill out plenty of forms. I could see them having a form that asks what sort of exercise I do and how often. I could also see them asking me that directly during my appt. It doesn't seem astounding at all to me.

[nenagh]

39. No, no, no....not sceptical at all...actually filled with admiration for the detail

and symptoms covered. I felt she must have a very good system that details every symptom and reason for the next step.

Here, if it's a first visit there a lot of information to cover..and lab results generate it's own set of data.

But to have the detail of questions asked and recorded shows extremely good care and was so helpful

in the trial, because, as we are often told, "If it is not recorded it didn't happen"...

That is we must record everything, which for me is on prescriptions.

I'm in Ontario... so comparing systems.

[anneboleyn]

53. Don't bet on it. He was in much better shape then

People often overestimate their own ability to outrun an attacker or to escape an attacker once an assault is in progress. Obviously we don't know when or if Martin was running full-speed from Zimmerman or how exactly Martin perceived the threat. I think it is also crucial to remember that Martin was a teenager being followed by an adult male he did not know. Everyone assumes that they would be able to evaluate instantly, run away, or otherwise escape a situation like this but so much depends on intangible factors -- the element of surprise (which Zimmerman may have had along with the gun), how one would react to a loaded gun pointed at them, etc.

[kudzu22]

115. Exactly -- we don't know

We don't know who was running, who was hiding, or how they came into contact with each other. It all adds up to reasonable doubt. GZ didn't sound like he was running on that phone call, and didn't get out of the car until (he claims) he lost sight of TM. If the state's position is that TM with that much of a head start was chased down from behind by GZ, I'd find that very hard to believe.

[Just Saying]

125. It depends on what route each person took.

Trayvon said on his phone call he thought he lost the creepy guy. I've seen maps that theorize Zimmerman ended up in front of Trayvon. Do you know which routes both took? You don't because the only witnesses are the accused and the victim. You have to be more specific about details if your going to make assertions like this because it's just not believable.

[avebury]

58. Zimmerman weighed over 100 pounds less then he does now at the

time of the incident. I would expect that someone who was that MMA classes 3 days a week, 3 hours a class would have been in a lot better shape then the shape he is in today.

[yardwork]

59. We don't know how Zimmerman's head and nose got scratched

Medical Examiner says scratches. Trivial injuries requiring nothing more than a bandaid. EMTs at the scene agreed. No proof that the nose was broken. My own eyes look at Zimmerman's injuries and I'm not impressed. Definitely not a head beaten 20-30 times on concrete as he claims. Zimmerman lied about his injuries. I don't believe anything he says.

[RGR375]

69. You do realize

To employ deadly force you do not have to have a scratch on you.

[yardwork]

70. Big man with a gun had to kill a child because he was scared of the black kid in the hoodie.

Zimmerman is a vile murderer and his supporters make me sick.

[RGR375]

89. Take some ex lax to your constipated

If Zimmerman's story is true and most people can not comprehend this it did not matter whether if martin was 17 or 77 or somewhere in between. Holy shit people look at your own states self defense laws. Most of you would probably have a coronary.

[Ruby the Liberal]

111. Why in is this so important to you that he get off?

Seems rather gun-fetishish to me, but thats just me.

[RGR375]

128. It's not

I can see a jury communing back with manslaughter or self defense depending on how they view the law and some other aspects. My whole point in posting in these forums is a lot of people think it is ok to do x,y or z and i have friends think that would be ok to do x,y or z until i showed them the law. Then they were what? i could be shot for that? Yes you can.

[madaboutharry]

113. +1,000,000

[Voice for Peace]

138. here

The critical question, however, is whether the 6 women, 5 of whom are mothers, believe what the defendant told others. They are not required to believe anything he said. I doubt they will believe him, given his many contradictory statements, implausible claims, and the forensic evidence, particularly the DNA evidence, which proves that Trayvon Martin did not hit him 20-30 times in the face, grab his head and repeatedly slam it into a concrete sidewalk, or attempt to smother him by placing his hands over the defendant’s nose and mouth.

I believe the prosecution has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant provoked the encounter with Trayvon Martin by following him in a vehicle and then on foot after Trayvon attempted to elude him. He hunted him down and attempted to restrain him contrary to a request by the police dispatcher not to follow him and he never identified himself or explained why he was restraining him. Under these circumstances, Trayvon Martin was entitled to use reasonable force to defend himself, escalating to deadly force when the defendant pulled out his gun. Therefore, Trayvon Martin used lawful force to defend himself and the defendant’s use of force was unlawful.

If he were my client, I would tell him that this is my assessment.

[kudzu22]

106. I think you're glossing over some poitns

GZ said he was hit 20-30 times. He made no claims about the extent of his injuries, and the ME never examined him, only emailed photos. He said he was beaten and head slammed on the concrete. Eyewitness saw him being beaten, and he has injuries consistent with such beating. That right there is reasonable doubt. The state has to prove it was NOT self-defense and they'll have a very hard time doing that with the evidence they have.

[yardwork]

112. "...he has injuries consistent with such beating...."

[kudzu22]

117. Laugh all you want

it's up to the state to prove they did NOT come from such a beating. Even their witnesses said it could have been consistent with a head bashed on concrete.

[Ruby the Liberal]

118. Sorry, O'Mara isn't included as a "witness(es)".

He is defense counsel.

[kudzu22]

124. Ok then if it didn't come from a beating, where did it come from?

Stress?

[Ruby the Liberal]

136. Walk with me through this scenario

Up to you to believe or discount...

Scenario 1:

Trayvon on top of Zippy, Zippy pulls a gun known for its strong recoil. Zippy fires and the gun/hand blasts back in his face as he tosses the kid off of his body (landing with both arms under his torso - as the police found him). From the recoil, already on his back, his head slams backwards onto the frozen/cold February ground (complete with with twigs, sticks and stones, not spring/summer lush grass) and he gets an owie scrape that needs a bandaid, but no stitches.

Scenario 2:

Trayvon jumps out from his hiding place in the 14" bushes on the property and bum-rushes Zippy to the sidewalk. He starts beating his head into the sidewalk, and then manuevers him so that the beating can commence on the "corner" of the sidewalk - to cover all angels of the defense case on each bump and scrape being a separate attack. In this 20-25 seconds, he is able to pound Zippy's head into the "concrete - weapon of choice" over 50 times while simultaneously smothering his (i) mouth (ii) nose and (iii) reaching for his gun - all without miraculously leaving a scintilla of DNA evidence - not Zippy on him, and not him on Zippy or Zippys prosthetic balls (is TEK-9).

The only obvious conclusion is that Trayvon was really one of those Men In Black aliens with 14 arms and supernatural strength, right?

That, or he was a teenager, minding his own fucking business, talking to a friend on the phone after walking to the CircleK/711 for munchies before watching a basketball game.

Why TF so important to you to see this man acquited?

What TF does society gain from that outcome? Armed crazy people on every corner?

[Ruby the Liberal]

116. Maybe he shouldn't have refused medical treatment

and called out sick the next morning with a "headache" or something.

That - or he wasn't really injured.

I have has worse bleeds shaving my legs. Just sayin.

[NaturalHigh]

23. "There's no evidence that Martin laid a hand on Zimmerman"

Right - Zimmerman's nose broke itself.

[lumpy]

48. Martin could have landed a punch on Zimmerman's nose when Martin was fighting

for his life pinned on the ground by Zimmerman before he pulled the trigger. And as it turned out Martin was fighting for his life. Maybe that is why Zimmerman feared for his own life, a punch on the nose. Hard to believe Martin approached Zimmerman from the nonexistent bushes and immediately punched Zimmerman on the nose.

[NaturalHigh]

49. I don't dispute anything that you said.

I was simply replying to the poster's assertion that there was no evidence that Martin laid a hand on Zimmerman. The circumstances of the confrontation are now up to the jury to interpret.

Edited for grammar.

[yardwork]

61. No proof of any broken nose.

Even if Zimmerman's nose was broken, no proof Martin did it. Could have been gun recoil, tripping and falling, self-inflicted.

Look at the photos of Zimmerman at the station hours after he killed Martin. Ain't no broken nose.

[Warpy]

26. Bullshit, you don't know what he chose

There is nothing in the evidence chain to corroborate Zimmerman's story and plenty to discredit it.

Martin in no way whatsoever caused his own death. If he did, then any of us who walk in our neighborhoods are at risk for being slaughtered by some vigilante with a gun and a rotten attitude.

[Hoyt]

29. Amen.

[hfojvt]

47. I know he did NOT choose to run home

because he had a one minute head start and yet still did not make it home.

And there is some evidence that Zimmerman was injured.

The story that Martin was beating on Zimmerman and then got shot makes sense to me. No other story that I can conjure up explains the known facts so easily. Trayvon was in a fight or flight scenario and he did not choose flight.

I have done plenty of night walking in my life. In fact, I still work a night shift (although I try to not have to walk).

[lumpy]

50. They were struggling while on the ground. It is most logical that Martin managed to

land a punch on Zimmerman's nose while Zimmerman had Martin pinned down. We don't know how Zimmerman managed to get Martin on the ground and that is a fact he did and it is a fact that Martin was underneath Zimmerman before the shot.
It is in the realm of possibility, that upon meeting face to face, Zimmerman attempted an arrest, Martin resisted by questioning Zimmerman's authority and decided to leave the scene. There upon Zimmerman might have tackled Martin and threw him on the ground and the rest is history. Just as logical as Zimmerman's account, which is left to be believed.
Bear in mind obviously Zimmerman was determined to capture his man instead of leaving before police arrived since he continued to follow Martin

[RGR375]

54. Actually

John Good was 15 -20 feet away from the two and he put zimmerman on the ground and martin on top a few short moments before the gun shot.

[lumpy]

75. In those few moments before the shot, were is the testimony just how Zimmerman

managed to get on top of Martin ??? There probably is none because most likely Zimmerman remained on top of Martin after throwing him to the ground preventing Martin from leaving from the scene after not accepting Zimmerman's attempt to arrest him. It is quite well established that Zimmerman was on top of Martin when the shot went off (shot in the chest, it is easy to establish where the bullet entered), and it was testified eye witness, that after the shot, Zimmerman got up from holding down the body and wandered back and forth holding his head.(a punch in the nose?) Perhaps there were errors in Mr. Good's testimony, it was a dark rainy evening and there has been testimony from other eye witnesses that it was difficult to see clearly to make distinct identification.

[Vattel]

67. What youclaimtobe a fact is speculation

[lumpy]

142. Speculation is used in many situations to try and get at the truth; that's when

circumstance enters the picture. Can one really believe the truth out of testimony that is questionable ? Much of what you present has been straight out of the mouth of the accused.

[RGR375]

62. I'm with you

Martin should have went home or called 911. Zimmerman should have never gave a fuck what martin was doing in the first place. But both of them were damed fools and one is dead and the other is on trial. The facts support zimmerman. If zimmerman was on the bottom getting beat then the prerequisites to shoot were met.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

164. Martin was indeed walking home in the rain. What about that do you Zimmerman Cheerleaders

not understand? Trayvon was minding his own damn business when Zimmerman approached him. Zimmerman pursued him, not the other way around. Are you clear of these facts?

Again, Trayvon was walking home. It was NOT late at night. It was halftime during a football game, around 7:15. That's not late at night.

Bottom line: Zimmerman should have pursued Trayvon. That's really the point, and I'm just taken aback by the lengths Zimmerman supporters are going to to defend this murderer.

[yardwork]

64. You don't know that Martin didn't run.

Zimmerman might have headed Martin off. Zimmerman was determined to catch the "punk." This one wasn't going to get away. Maybe Martin got turned around or confused. It was 7 pm on a rainy winter night. Hard to tell his father's condo from all the others.

Nothing shows that Zimmerman had to kill the kid. Nothing. It was murder.

[Vattel]

74. He might have got turned around or confused?

Or he might have gone back to teach Zimmerman a lesson. The prosecution has failed miserably in their attempt to show that Zimmerman approached Martin and started the fight.

[yardwork]

78. The prosecution convinced me that Zimmerman approached Martin and killed him.

I see no evidence for self-defense. Nothing. If Zimmerman had punched Martin, I would give him the benefit of the doubt and say well, maybe he had to punch Martin. But nothing whatsoever to indicate that Zimmerman was ever remotely in fear for his life. Nothing to justify pulling out a gun and shooting a seventeen year old.

If it were a black 27 year old who had shot and killed a half Hispanic half Anglo seventeen year old you would be howling for the black guy's head.

[Vattel]

81. That is ridiculous.

You just jump to the conclusion that I am racist like you jump to the conclusion that Zimmerman didn't fear for his life. Amazing.

[yardwork]

90. I've heard that juries usually aren't too bright either, so maybe they'll see things the same way.

[NYC_SKP]

94. yardwork:

You know I'm not your biggest fan but I don't mind saying that I'm glad you're back and I voted to hide the insult posted above yours in this subthread.

Be well!

[yardwork]

101. I don't see anything that needs to be hidden. I certainly did not alert.

Thank you for the welcome back. No need to hide any insults. Let them fly.

Edited - I see the post that was hidden. I would have voted to leave that alone if I had been on the jury.

[NYC_SKP]

104. Me either.

Just thought I'd say hi, didn't think you had alerted.

Results, I was 3 or 4:

At Sun Jul 7, 2013, 07:32 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

And having seen your posts,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3195150

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

All the insult adds is making DU suck more. How about we start making DU suck less? Thank you jurors.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Jul 7, 2013, 07:43 PM, and the Jury voted 5-1 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: Personal attack, insulting.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: Personal insults don't belong here
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Under different circumstances I may have voted to block the post, but the person being accused here seemed to take the comment in stride and even wrote a clever comeback. I took that as a sign that they weren't terribly offended by the comment. I do agree things have gotten a bit testy here lately but to me censoring should be saved for more egregious violations
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[yardwork]

105. #5 is exactly correct. I self-deleted my more insulting post that prompted it.

In the interest of fighting fair.

[LanternWaste]

166. Confused? Yeah... that could also explain why he attempted to commit wire-fraud

Confused? Yeah... that could also explain why he attempted to commit wire-fraud with his wife, too. Just confused, is all.

[Raine1967]

66. He really had no choice once Zimmerman started to stalk him.

keeristalmighty, I cannot believe you are saying this kid brought about his own death.

[Ruby the Liberal]

72. Better question - what is the motivation in seeing

an acquittal?

[Raine1967]

82. Ruby, I wish I had an honest answer for that.

I really do. When I think about possible answers I realize I am basing it on suppositions -- and the answers are not pretty.

What I am seeing is that a person is defending his right to kill another person based on fear. That feat could have been stopped had he not gotten his arse back into the truck and drove off.

Zimmerman had a gun. He could have gotten back in his truck and drove off. HE could have waited at teh entrance of the community for the police to show up.

HE did NONE of those things; what he did was kill a boy that just turned 17.

[Ruby the Liberal]

107. I am terrified about this trial

OJ? Rodney King? Casey Anthony?

None of the above are/were my problem. Yes - I was livid that justice was not served (IMO) on those 3 - but this is different. Way different.

I don't want to live in a country where every snub-dicked asswipe with a CCW thinks they now have the right to shoot on sight the nano second they perceive someone looking at them askance because they are 'askeered fer their life".

[hfojvt]

91. you simply have lots of choices when somebody is stalking you

the are fifty ways to lose a stalker Especially with a one minute head start.

not so many ways to get away when you are pinned on your back.

[Just Saying]

132. How was he pinned

Yet pulled his gun out of the holster and fired?

[DonCoquixote]

98. OK..with all due respect

First off, Tray's stepfather was in the neighborhood, he had every right to be there.

HE HAD EVERY RIGHT TO BE THERE.

Second, Zimmerman approached him, just like he was chasing at least five other people that month that happened to be black males. And let's not forget he said F888ng Goons, or another words that rhymes with "goons" that even nancy grace recognized.

He had a gun, even though he would no idea whether Tray was armed 9which of course, he was not)

[hfojvt]

140. of course he had every right to be there

but Trayvon had no right to punch Zimmerman, just because Zimmerman approached him. If he did, in fact, approach him.

Zimmerman had a gun, but it was a concealed weapon. So Trayvon had no idea if Zimmerman was armed either.

Zimmerman had no way to approach him, if Trayvon just ran home. Here is the call http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/raw-911-call-zimmerman-made-to-sanford-police/vGZq9/

At 2:09, Zimmerman says of Trayvon, who had already gone past him "he's running". Zimmerman was on the phone for another two minutes How far was Trayvon from home? He could have run home in those two minutes. Zimmerman was walking while on the phone and then seems to stop doing that (as the heavier breathing stops). It is at least a minute after Zimmerman says "I don't know where this kid is" and the end of the call. If Trayvon just runs away, how does he not make it home safely?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

165. The point is, this entire event could've been avoided. How?

1. If Zimmerman stayed in his car and waited for the police to arrive.
2. Even if Zimmerman did see the need to pursue Trayvon, he should have identified himself as a Neighborhood Watchman.

Do you have daughters? Sisters? A mother? Other female relatives? If a creepy guy is following behind and fails to identify himself, I would teach my daughters to fight with all their might to defend themselves.

Why is it different for Trayvon? Is it because he's black? Wearing a hoodie? The need to defend Zimmerman because he's a gun owner?

What is it with the Zimmerman Cheerleaders, really? I don't get it.

[hfojvt]

167. it could also have been avoided

Last edited Mon Jul 8, 2013, 03:53 PM - Edit history (1)

if Trayvon had run home, or even kept walking.

or perhaps if he had not assaulted Zimmerman.

Zimmerman did nothing either illegal nor immoral by getting out of his vehicle. Yet, if Trayvon assaulted Zimmerman for no reason other than his own paranoia, then he did something illegal and immoral.

If I had a mother, I would advise her to run from danger, and NOT to escalate a situation with a pre-emptive assault.

What it is with Zimmerman defenders, is that they/we find the defense story more plausible than that of the prosecutors.

This OP started with a strawman which did not even want to acknowledge Zimmerman's actual defense argument. As if the defense said this

"Trayvon caused his own death by being black and walking after dark, (in his own neighborhood) without Zimmerman's permission,"

When they are really saying that Trayvon caused his own death by assaulting somebody he perceived to be following him. The argument for Zimmerman's defense to me, just makes more sense than the argument made for Trayvon

Trayvon - he approached me, so I had to defend myself
Zimmerman - he had me pinned to the ground and he was pounding on me, so I had to defend myself

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

168. He WAS walking home!! What the hell is wrong with you?

[hfojvt]

171. many things

I have mild aspergers, astigmatism, acid-reflux disease, and caries. And the cartilege in my knees is not good.

Plus, apparently, I don't even know how to spell cartlege (yup, wrong again) (that's what I get for not going to medical school)

There is a funny line in Star Trek IV when they land in San Fransisco in 20th century earth. Kirk says something like "We are entering a culture that is paranoid and violent. Go armed and set phasers on stun."

Sometimes, in order to stay untouched and alive in this society, you need to be prepared to run like a rabbit. Especially at night. If you are not prepared you could get beaten, robbed, raped, or all three, or killed. I want my nieces and nephews to live, to survive. So if they think they are facing danger on a walk home - then get the Zark out of there. Run away, run away, before the rabbit bites your arm off.

Or sometimes, you need to take a weapon, just in case. My personal favorite is the cane, or shillelagh. Or pepper spray, or a gun. You might need it if somebody starts beating the crap out of you. It is just a fact of life.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

172. A young black boy is dead and you're cracking jokes?! That is really sick!!

Welcome to IGNORE. Enjoy replying to yourself.

[Just Saying]

130. Really?

Most people are approached by strangers all the time, without feeling the need to "defend" themselves by going on offense.

You act like they were just walking down the street. Lets try some reality. Zimmerman was following Trayvon in his truck in the dark. When Trayvon got freaked out and ran, he followed. That doesn't happen to most people.

Trayvon had over a one minute head start, and he could not have just jogged home? A person being followed needs to defend themself, but a person pinned to the ground does not?

A minute from when to when? He could have gone home bit as his friend testified he thought he'd lost the guy so he continued talking to his friend. Who says Zimmerman was ever pinned to the ground? He was able, according to his own statements, to pull his gun from its holster and fire.

Other than the word of the accused, any proof Trayvon punched Zimmerman? Wounds don't prove what happened and no witness saw a punch. Perhaps Trayvon was assaulted, grabbed or tackled. Is it okay for him to defend himself or is that only for white people or gun owners?

Prove Trayvon chose to attack. You can't.

But...

Zimmerman chose to follow Trayvon.
He chose to chase after him.
He chose to shoot an unarmed kid.

You're right about one thing-Zimmerman is a little man but it should not be legal for him to kill.

[hfojvt]

146. Why don't you think wounds prove anything?

Something hit Zimmerman in the nose and something cut the back of his head.

Play it the other way. What proof is there that Zimmerman was NOT pinned to the ground? And the OP implies that he was, that Trayvon had a right to DEFEND himself from somebody who was following him.

So supposedly Trayvon thought he lost the guy after he ran for half a minute. Okay, first of all, he does not sound very scared, does he. Then he calls this girl and starts wandering non-chalantly towards home.

So explain to me then, how Zimmerman catches up to him. Trayvon is now 100 yards or more ahead of Zimmerman and Z starts running towards him. Trayvon is just yakking away (or listening to his friend) - never bothers to look behind him (to see if he really has lost the dude) and somehow cannot hear Zimmerman charging towards him. Does that sound believable to you? It does not to me. Unless Z has super stealth powers, Trayvon hears him from twenty yards away and scampers away (or could, if he so CHOSE).

Further, in all these discussion of this case, nobody presents basic facts. What is the distance between Zimmerman's car and the crime scene? What is the distance between the crime scene and Trayvon's home? Because I want to know, how much ground did he cover in four minutes even of walking? And how far was he from home?

You simply do not know that this unarmed teenager was NOT beating on Zimmerman before "He chose to shoot an unarmed kid." and yet the OP is quite confident that the only reason the teen got shot is because he was black.

I think it is possible and plausible that the kid got shot because he decided to attack the guy following him.

[Just Saying]

151. Wounds are circumstantial

Unless one believes what Zimmerman says. I don't.

100 yards from where to where? At what time? What route did each take to get to that point? You complain about a lack of basic facts but give none.

Now I have to prove a negative? Frankly, if the law in Florida doesn't make Zimmerman justify his self-defense ie prove that he was attacked first and had a legitimate fear for his life, then the law is wrong.

The medical evidence doesn't really support his claims about what happened. IMO, they said he needed a bandaid and his injuries were minor. And yes, I understand that he didn't have to wait until he's badly hurt, but I don't think it's reasonable that a healthy man in his late 20s with a gun, a 40 pound weight advantage and who trained in an MMA gym 3x a week and who got out of his car to follow was the one who needed self-defense. That doesn't seem logical to me.

I think it's possible and palusable that Zimmerman tried to keep Trayvon where he was so the "punk" didn't get away and then shot Trayvon when he faught back. You don't know that's not how it happened either.

[hfojvt]

169. wounds are at least a little bit of evidence

Why do I believe Zimmerman was on his back?

Because he had cuts on the back of his head.

Why do I believe Trayvon hit him?

Because he had an injury to his nose.

And about who struck first. Nobody has any evidence about that, other than far away witnesses looking out at a dark yard.

The point of this OP is that people are saying "Trayvon had to defend himself because Zimmerman was following him"

And as I said in my first post on this thread the "He was following me, so I had to defend myself" argument lacks any sort of common sense. Those people ARE arguing that Trayvon struck first and that it is OKAY that Trayvon struck first. THAT is the argument I am taking issue with.

If Zimmerman struck first, or tackled Trayvon, then fuck him, fuck him and the horse he rode in on. Send him directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

I don't believe that scenario, because the fact that Trayvon did not run, did not escape with his one minute head start. With 4 minutes between Zimmerman's call and the fight, Trayvon ended up 200 yards away from Zimmerman's car. So it took him four minutes to run 200 yards? Again, I say that is pretty solid evidence that Trayvon did not run.

Many things are possible, but I think there is a solid case for Zimmerman's defense, and that the prosecution of Zimmerman is often weak. It goes like "Trayvon is black. Trayvon is young. Trayvon is dead. Zimmerman got out of his car. Zimmerman is a racist POS. Case closed."

Oh, and anybody who does not join me in condemning Zimmerman is also a racist POS, or perhaps a gun nut.

[Just Saying]

173. Wounds are evidence that something happened but don't tell us what.

Anyway...

Trayvon did run. Z says so on his phone call to police. And we have a witness who testified that he stopped running because he thought he lost Z. That's really not that hard to believe. He was creeped out but once he was behind the buildings and where he was staying was ahead, he continued his conversation. So your time and distance thing just doesn't matter according to facts as we know them. I've seen maps with scenarios that show Z circling around a building on the next street and ending up in front of Trayvon ie between him and where he was staying.

A lot of people believe Zimmerman is guilty for a number of reasons and these are facts:

* Trayvon was young and was just walking home from the store.

* He was not armed and there's no evidence he was doing anything wrong at all when Zimmerman called the police on him.

* Zimmerman called him a "fucking punk."

* Zimmerman followed him behind a building in the dark with a loaded gun.

* Zimmerman shot him point blank in the chest.

Many of us just don't believe Zimmerman's version of events. He called the police and went after a kid who had done nothing at all. I believe it was because Trayvon was black and Z assumed he was doing something wrong because of it. I simply don't believe he would have called on a white kid.

It's hard for me to believe that Zimmerman who was a grown man, had a 40lb weight advantage, practiced in an MMA gym, who followed Trayvon and who was armed was the one who needed to defend himself. Zimmerman acted like a vigilante and he took this young boy's life.

Your free to believe whatever you choose.

[Voice for Peace]

131. poor wording

should be "defending himself against a creepy guy
who had been stalking him by car and on foot, and
who made no effort to identify himself as a benevolent
person."

The prosecution has a solid case for 2nd degree.

[lumpy]

141. It is questionable whether anyone should rely on Zimmerman,s lone telling of

the tail. Zimmerman says Martin gave him the bloody nose. OK that makes sense. It hardly makes sense that Martin sprang out of (non-existent) bushes and popped Zimmerman in the face without good reason. More likely Zimmerman was determined that Martin was not going to walk away so Zimmerman slammd Martin to the ground and straddled him. Many people believe that Martin smacked Zimmerman when they were tusseling on the ground.

[lumpy]

144. To be sucked in by Zimmerman's own account of his debacle is sad since it makes l

little sense.

[MrScorpio]

145. What justification that Z have to follow Martin around in the first place?

What did Martin possibly do wrong to warrant the attention of an armed Z in the first place?

[hfojvt]

149. why should that matter?

My bottom line is that

being followed (by itself) is a) a relatively minor threat, and b) something which can be "defended" simply by eluding your pursuers.

It is not defense if you start punching them. You have switched to offense.

The statement "he was following me, so I had to defend myself" just does not hold water.

[Just Saying]

153. Do you have children?

What do you tell them about strangers?

Obviously the first thing if someone was following them would be to run.

But what if they couldn't? What if someone started questioning them? In the dark. Behind some buildings? What if the person tried to physically restrain them or tackled them? Would you tell them not to hit, kick and scream?

Try to see this from a young person's point of view.

[MrScorpio]

154. It matters because Martin had ever right to NOT be chased around at all, correct?

It matters because Martin shouldn't have been put into a situation where he had to run home with a minute head start.

He had every right to be where he was without being followed around by some overly suspicious gunman.

With all of this talk about your apparent approval of following people around in the dark for no good reason (while armed mind you) aren't you just simply declaring open season on young Black teenagers?

What doesn't hold water is your own logic, which is dependent upon disregarding Martin's right to walk to and from a public area without being reported to the police and chased around that complex by an angry man with a gun for absolutely no good reason at all.

Or, is Zimmerman perhaps your hero... Hence your line of reasoning?

[hfojvt]

156. again, I will relate a story or two or three

I have a cousin who is a pastor. For his first job, he was in Pawnee City, Nebraska. Not too far away from where I live. So I thought I would drive up there and listen to him preach. Got to town like two hours before church. So I had some time to kill in this little burg. A store was open so I went in there to check the time and also perhaps to buy something. Didn't see a clock and the things I looked at were too expensive, so I just walked back to my car, and booted up my laptop to kill time on (and also to give me the time (since I do not own a watch or a cell phone). Suddenly a cop is knocking on my window - an off-duty cop. Seems he had just gone into the store and the store owner had reported me (for what? Not paying his high prices). So there I am, having to explain what I am doing in this neighborhood.

I had every right to do what I did. I had not done anything illegal, and yet, somehow, we do not live in a perfect world.

Then another time, I had rented a car and was dropping it off at night. Probably after midnight, and walking home stopped at wal-mart. Had a cart with a dozen items in it and was almost ready to check out when a couple guys tell me they are store security and I cannot have a backpack on me. I guess a white man cannot have a bag in this town.

As a biker, Dollar General, told me the same thing - no backpacks. This, after I had shopped there regularly. Where else am I supposed to put my backpack? On my bicycle? And you don't recognize me, or appreciate me as a customer? So I made a point to quit shopping there for a time.

People are suspicious. Sometimes they will suspect you for no reason or for their own logic - because you are not doing what they would do.

Zimmerman had a right to be armed. Zimmerman had a right to follow somebody. That, as far as I know, is not against the law.

Trayvon did NOT have to run home, but that is a legal response if you are scared. That's how you defend yourself. Attacking somebody, knocking them down and hitting them is not a legal response. It gives the person you hit the right to defend themself. Otherwise you give white people the right to shoot any black person they fear might be following them. "I was afraid for my life, he was walking in the same direction as I was at night."

Open season on young black males? Only if those young black males assault people.

Zimmerman a hero? I would say that I do not hate Trayvon and love Zimmerman in the way that the other side loves Trayvon and hates Zimmerman, and even hates (or is disgusted by) Zimmerman-defenders

[MrScorpio]

157. I've read your arguments...

And all of them are hinged on your supposition that Martin was the initial aggressor and not Z. That he just went off and cold-cocked Z out of the blue (from the confines of those non-existent bushes that he said) without any justification for his own well-being. Something like that fits quite nicely with a mindset that classifies all young black males as potentially violent without regard to any particular situation.

Frankly, that stereotype is a false one.

Which makes no sense to me here, given Zimmerman's own known angry state of mind, his past history of violent confrontations, in that that he was the pursuer at that particular time and would have most likely grabbed Martin first in order to detain him until the police arrived.

Do you deny Zimmerman's own anger, or are you just arguing that Martin was the person more prone to violent behavior?

Martin, resisting an angry person grabbing on him for no reason at all, would have most likely been the start of the subsequent struggle, which resulted in Zimmerman shooting and killing him.

Now, if some guy that you didn't know, followed you around, grabbed onto you and angrily demanded why you were in a particular area, what would be your immediate reaction if this person was intent on holding you in-place until the police, that he called on you, arrived?

Would you let him do that to you?

[hfojvt]

159. I would not let somebody get close enough to grab me

With a one minute head start, I would be sitting at home watching TV before Zimmerman even got off the phone with the cops.

That's my first piece of evidence of Trayvon's violence - that he did NOT run.

In this scenario of an angry person grabbing Trayvon, what is missing is - how does this person even CATCH Trayvon? Trayvon walks past his car while he is talking to dispatch and then, when he is several feet, or yards past him - starts running. Zimmerman follows at a walk, and says to dispatch "I don't know where he is" and is on the phone for another minute. Zimmerman cannot grab anybody unless that person is just standing around waiting for him. Or unless Zimmerman runs him down like his is LL Cool J playing NCIS Los Angeles on the East Coast.

But according to this map, Trayvon died about 200 feet away from Zimmerman's car and about 400 feet away from his house. http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/14/2748048/interactive-map-of-trayvon-martin.html

So 200 yards between Zimmerman's car and Trayvon's home and five minutes between when Zimmerman says he walked past, and then ran, and when the other call ends at 7:16. And Zimmerman is on the phone for over 1.5 minutes. Even a slow runner can cover 200 yards in a minute. But Trayvon only covers 70 yards in 3 minutes. He simply WAS. NOT. RUNNING.

So I put together 1) does not try to get away plus 2) injuries to Zimmerman's nose and back of his head and that adds up to 3) Trayvon attacked Zimmerman. What other story explains 70 yards in 3 minutes?

[MrScorpio]

162. There are two ways that I would respond to this...

But I'll simply ask you a question: Do you believe Zimmerman's account of what happened?

[hfojvt]

163. mea culpa though, although I blame the Miami Herald

Last edited Mon Jul 8, 2013, 02:51 PM - Edit history (1)

Last night I was wondering if I was confusing feet and yards. Were they 200 feet from Zimmerman's car, or 200 yards? Did the map say yards and I confused it with feet?

Well the scale on that map clearly says "feet" but somebody made a mistake. It should say "yards" and not feet. When I use that scale to measure the distance between Trayvon's house and the 711, I get 1,000 feet, but they say it is 0.8 miles which would be 4,000 feet, or closer to 1,000 yards.

Therefore, they were about 200 yards from Zimmerman's car and 400 yards from Trayvon's house. Not feet - yards.

I still say though that a minute of running should have gotten further than 200 yards and four minutes of slow jogging or walking, would have gotten much closer to Trayvon's home than where they ended up.

But I need to go walk 150 yards just to see how long it would take.

Also, I am a runner, so I could/would run (or jog) 600 yards. Non-runners, even a young guy in decent shape, might not have the drive to jog that far, and might just jog 70 or 150 yards and then say "screw this" and resume walking.

edit; In one minute I walked about 95 yards at a moderate pace. Walked 115 at a fast pace. So four minutes of even moderately slow walking should have gotten him 320 yards past Zimmerman's car. If he had run, even a little, he should have been much closer to home when he died.

[SaveAmerica]

155. Did you get that info from Trayvon Martin's testimony?

We only have one person's pov of what happened and it's sick of you to make up actions for someone who is not here to tell what happened to him.

It looks to me from Martin's friend's testimony and Zimmerman's call for help that Trayvon was trying to shake Zimmerman. ("I lost him" from Trayvon to his friend, "He's running" from Zimmerman to the dispatcher. That says to me that Trayvon was making an effort to get back to his house without meeting up with anyone but Zimmerman's pursuit intercepted him.

My made up scene comes from evidence and yours from conjecture. And your accompanying emoticons are tasteless. Sick.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TRAYVON MARTIN CHOSE!!!!

[hfojvt]

161. actually we have a recording made before there was any shooting

and we have times, and now distances.

7:11:43 - Zimmerman tells dispatch "he's running"
7:13:38 - the call to dispatch ends

one minute and 55 seconds and yet Trayvon dies a mere 70 yards from Zimmerman's car. Who runs that slow?

The other call ended at 7:16. Another two minutes for Trayvon to get away.

So almost 4 minutes and Trayvon only got 70 yards away. Could not manage to run the other 140 yards home. Even though 51 year old me could run 200 yards in about 40 seconds, at most. Run slow and do it in two minutes. Heck, even if Zimmerman is Usain Bolt and catches Trayvon, Trayvon should have died 20 yards from his house and 180 yards from Zimmerman's car. Not 70 yards from the car and 140 yards from the house. Not unless Trayvon chose not to run.

That's not Zimmerman's story - that is a recording, a clock and a yardstick. Evidence. Just the facts. Zimmerman's injuries tell a story too. Of somebody who got hit in the nose. Of somebody who got their head scraped on something or by something.

As for the emoticons, that seems to be the main story here. Trayvon was followed so he had to fight for his life. That is the self-defense story that all non-racist liberals are supposed to find so compelling.

[Marrah_G]

12. I admire his mother

She kept completely calm and didn't react.

I am not sure I could have done the same.

[yardwork]

14. I agree.

[TorchTheWitch]

15. I thought the same thing

Though you could tell how difficult it was for her to maintain control even when that asshole O'Mara tried to get her to agree that Martin caused his own death if it wasn't him screaming. What the hell was even the point to that??? Not only was it just a disgusting thing to say to her but there wasn't any point to it - there is no way to prove who the screaming came from, and the jury will have to decide that. There was just no reason in the world for him to ask such a gross question in the first place. He might as well have been waiving a sign at the jury saying "Please Hate My Guts."

[BeyondGeography]

27. Haven't been watching but that's a terrible line

[Initech]

36. To quote the movie "Super Troopers":

"Oh I'll believe that when me shit turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet."

Dumbass.

[Starry Messenger]

44. How was Trayvon supposed to know that he wasn't being accosted by a child molester?

If those girls from Cleveland had successfully fought off that pervert who kept them as sex slaves for 10 years, we wouldn't be having this conversation about what a "threat" they were.

Trayvon was a young minor being followed by a large male stranger who did not identify his purpose for following. Zimmerman is being given the benefit of the doubt that he's a solid citizen who is the injured party, when the cell phone conversations from Trayvon show a young person scared of being followed by a creep who was running up on him.

FUCK Zimmerman.

[anneboleyn]

56. MTE. Martin might have worried a sexual assault was about to happen.

[Just Saying]

133. Or a robbery

Or a hundred other things.

Why is only armed guy that's following allowed to claim self-defense???

[uppityperson]

148. oh good lord

[Raine1967]

77. +1

I was thinking along similar lines. This sounds like victim blaming to me.

Problem is: the victim is dead.

[Incitatus]

93. Exactly.

If it did go down as Zimmerman claims. IIRC:

Trayvon "Do you have a problem"
Zimmerman "No"

He followed him through the neighborhood with his truck, got out of his truck and followed him on foot in the dark down a pathway behind the homes. Zimmerman obviously had a problem and he should have identified himself as with the neighborhood watch and just making sure everything is ok. I think Zimmerman wanted a fight and he wanted it to end a certain way.

[Zoeisright]

46. Yeah, he foolishly

got in the way of the bullet.

Fuck off and die, you freaking asshole attorney.

[Baitball Blogger]

73. Zimmerman's defense: "I chased him until he made me do it."

[Lil Missy]

85. Defense lawyers are allowed to lie.

Sucks, but they do it all the time.

[quinnox]

102. this defense attorney is going for scumbag lawyer of the year award

Jesus Christ. What a piece of shit.

[Kurovski]

143. It's vile.

I know we give criminals a defense team, but that's just vile.

[Stargleamer]

152. No, your trigger-happy client did. . .

I swear, Zimmerman reminds me the Twilight Zone episode, "The Monsters are Due on Maple Street", all over again.

[gopiscrap]

158. Fucking attorney is a god damn whore

shilling for that psychopath and the psychopaths of the NRA that are propping Zimmerman up. All this douche bag of a lawyer wants is fame and money!!!

[6000eliot]

160. Yeah! How dare he walk around Black and wearing a hoodie!

[Myrina]

170. Yikes, if that's how he came across ... it's good for the prosecution.

The utter arrogance and assholery of a statement like that ought to result in a guilty verdict, IMHO.




Please see my sig line before you start a pissing contest with me. Thanks & have a nice day.

[noiretextatique]

174. disgusting racial pandering

trolling for racists on the jury, nothing more.