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If a Fetus is a Person. (Original Post) sheshe2 Jul 2013 OP
Since you brought it up, when does a fetus become a person, with his or her own civil rights? badtoworse Jul 2013 #1
Ask the GOP that question. sheshe2 Jul 2013 #2
I asked you. It's your thread badtoworse Jul 2013 #3
Oooohhhhh, we got us a snotty, sarcastic "pro-lifer". kestrel91316 Jul 2013 #7
"snotty, sarcastic" - how do you get that? badtoworse Jul 2013 #26
Google is your friend. First link is 2011...where have you been! sheshe2 Jul 2013 #9
"Life begins at ejaculation" Rain Mcloud Jul 2013 #20
Yep... PopeOxycontinI Jul 2013 #21
Was there another question that you wished to ask me? sheshe2 Jul 2013 #22
I was actually interested in your personal opinion,... badtoworse Jul 2013 #23
Indeed, since none of US seems to have any say in the matter anymore. kestrel91316 Jul 2013 #8
it's the question both sides need to talk about alc Jul 2013 #27
They are like schrodinger's cat. They are not alive until out of the box, so don't look The Straight Story Jul 2013 #4
Traditionally at birth, but most of us would probably allow for gestation sufficient to kestrel91316 Jul 2013 #6
Viability is a contentious issue Major Nikon Jul 2013 #18
I would agree with that, but would clarify it a bit badtoworse Jul 2013 #25
Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2013 #10
Birth Major Nikon Jul 2013 #15
They want to declare it a person the second the man asks the woman to "go upstairs" jmowreader Jul 2013 #16
Bingo! sheshe2 Jul 2013 #17
When it's born. gollygee Jul 2013 #24
Sure, just like an egg is a chicken. last1standing Jul 2013 #5
If I were younger, pregnant, and living in one of these states, I'd take a million dollar life phylny Jul 2013 #11
I am sorry to here that, but the GOP has an answer for that too Heather MC Jul 2013 #12
...then what is a Festus?? populistdriven Jul 2013 #13
Women should start using the car pool lane Vinnie From Indy Jul 2013 #14
If a fetus is an unborn child . . . caseymoz Jul 2013 #19
If a fetus is a person, and corporations are persons, LiberalEsto Jul 2013 #28
LiberalEsto~ sheshe2 Jul 2013 #29
 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
26. "snotty, sarcastic" - how do you get that?
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 09:00 AM
Jul 2013

Whether it was intentional or not, the OP raised an important question. I was interested in her opinion, not the GOP's. If you post about an issue, I think it's reasonable to expect you to discuss it, when others reply to your post.

BTW, you knew nothing about my opinion when you posted this. I'll give you credit for posting you own opinion which I responded to.

sheshe2

(83,785 posts)
9. Google is your friend. First link is 2011...where have you been!
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:51 PM
Jul 2013
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/11/mississippi-personhood-zygote-federal-law

Congressional GOP Pushes Zygote Personhood Bills
Mississippi voters rejected a constitutional amendment granting personhood to zygotes—but congressional Republicans want to take the plan national.


9:30PT: The measure failed.) Its backers hoped to set up a challenge to Roe v. Wade and push toward outlawing many forms of birth control. In Mississippi, the proposed amendment created a political firestorm that's been closely watched by both sides of the national abortion debate. But this fight is not merely a Mississippi matter, and it is far from over: In Washington, House and Senate Republicans are pushing legislation that would do the same thing on the federal level.

Map: Is a personhood amendment coming to a state near you?
The Mississippi amendment alters the state's Constitution so that "the term 'person' or 'persons' shall include every human being from the moment of fertilization, cloning, or the functional equivalent thereof." Nearly identical language appears in three bills that have been endorsed by scores of Republicans in Congress, including top House committee chairmen Spencer Bachus (R-Ala.) and Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) and presidential candidate Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.).


Advertise on MotherJones.com

Like the Mississippi measure, these bills, which are not constitutional amendments, would extend the rights of legal personhood—including equal protection under the law—to a zygote, the single cell formed when a human sperm fuses with an egg. The national measures are "designed to achieve the same end" as the Mississippi effort, says Sara Rosenbaum, a health law expert and professor at George Washington University who frequently testifies before Congress on reproductive rights issues. "The aim of the bills is to reclassify or to overturn…the fundamental constitutional fact on which Roe v. Wade rests," she adds. Opponents of abortion rights agree with Rosenbaum's analysis: The National Pro-Life Alliance, a group that backs all three bills, calls them "a frontal assault on Roe v. Wade" and sees them as a way of "legislatively overturning" the Supreme Court decision.


Fetal Personhood

Crimes Against Pregnant Women Act Advances In Colorado, Heads To Gov. John Hickenlooper's Desk

A bill that would allow prosecutors to punish criminals who harm an unborn child during a crime received final approval by state lawmakers on Friday and now heads to Gov. John Hickenlooper's desk to be signed into law.

House Bill 1154 passed 21-14 in the Senate and would create a new set of felony offenses that can be charged against any person whose crime results in the unlawful termination of a pregnancy. The bill does not, however, criminalize any lawful action taken by a woman or her doctor with regard to her own pregnancy.


North Dakota Personhood Measure Passes State House
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/22/north-dakota-personhood_n_2934503.html

North Dakota became the first state on Friday to pass a fetal personhood amendment, which grants legal personhood rights to embryos from the moment of fertilization. The state House of Representatives voted 57 to 35 to pass the amendment, after the Senate passed the same measure last month.

The measure will now appear on the November 2014 ballot, and voters will be able to accept or reject it. If it passes, it will amend North Dakota's constitution to state that “the inalienable right to life of every human being at any stage of development must be recognized and protected.” The amendment would ban abortion in the state, without exceptions for rape, incest or life of the mother, and it could affect the legality of some forms of birth control, stem cell research and in vitro fertilization.

“The North Dakota legislature has taken historic strides to protect every human being in the state, paving the way for human rights nationwide,” Keith Mason, president of the anti-abortion advocacy group Personhood USA, said in a statement on Friday. “This amendment strikes the balance of accomplishing more for the unborn than any other amendment the nation has ever seen, while protecting pregnant women and their right to true medical care. We applaud the North Dakota House and Senate for their willingness to protect all of the people in their state.”

Similar fetal personhood initiatives have been rejected by voters in several other states, including Mississippi, one of the most socially conservative states in the country.
 

Rain Mcloud

(812 posts)
20. "Life begins at ejaculation"
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 11:16 PM
Jul 2013

The same line of bullshit over masturbation the Vatican took during the crusades,Swords for Jesus.

Now it is advantageous on several levels but the salient points are;
1.Tax Cuts
2.White Minority by 2050 and it is accepted as fact that angry paranoid white people vote Republican.
Rinse and Repeat as necessary until the Churches control every aspect of your personal life.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
23. I was actually interested in your personal opinion,...
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 08:33 AM
Jul 2013

...not recent state legislation on the matter. You might not have intended it, but your OP raised an important question: At what point does a fetus, unborn child, (whatever you're comfortable with) acquire its civil rights. What is your view?

alc

(1,151 posts)
27. it's the question both sides need to talk about
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 09:14 AM
Jul 2013

There was a time many didn't like a black was a "person" so it was ok to kill them. Most on the anti-abortion side fell like those who were fighting for acceptance of blacks as people, because they honestly feel the fetus is a person. I disagree with them as far as a fetus being a person, but I can respect their intentions. Calling names and attributing motives that aren't true (e.g. "controlling women&quot isn't a path that will lead to any compromise. And, without compromise they will win in many states.

They are even more "all-or-nothing" than the pro-choice side so I don't expect them to be making the first move on finding solutions that everyone can live with. So, pro-choicers discussing when they feel a fetus becomes a person could be very useful.

For me it's when the fetus can live outside the womb, but I don't have a week # that I associate with that (24-27?).

 

kestrel91316

(51,666 posts)
6. Traditionally at birth, but most of us would probably allow for gestation sufficient to
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:38 PM
Jul 2013

allow for unassisted viability outside the womb.

Pre-viability fetuses/embryos are not people. I don't know of any traditional or historical societies that considered nonviable fetuses to be persons equal to born humans. Even in biblical times they most definitely were not.

Enjoy yourself.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
18. Viability is a contentious issue
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 10:52 PM
Jul 2013

If you read Justice Ginsburg's writing on the subject, viability is not a good point to establish thresholds for abortion legality because technology will always push viability downwards. The technology already exists to create synthetic wombs and it's only ethical questions which are holding back experimentation and implementation. This would push viability back all the way to the tap and non-sterile men who masturbate would be responsible for the murder of entire civilizations. Viability is really just as arbitrary as anything else because we don't rip fetuses out of the womb once they are viable.

This is one of the few things I'm with Ayn Rand on. Abortion should be unrestricted till birth. Anything else and it's the government which is arbitrarily deciding what is infanticide for one woman and what isn't for another. It's either all OK or none of it is. Anything else is arbitrary and capricious. A non-person's 'rights' do not trump those of an actual person.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
25. I would agree with that, but would clarify it a bit
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 08:55 AM
Jul 2013

I would add that unassisted does not preclude reasonable measures to keep a prematurely born baby alive. Babies born a few weeks premature routinely survive to become normal children. They may need additional care compared to a full term baby (e.g. an incubator), but such facilities are normally available at hospitals and I wouldn't consider that to be an extraordinary measure. I'm not an expert, but I believe that after 7 months, a baby's chances of survival with routine, appropriate (for a premature baby) care are excellent. I would say that by 7 months, a fetus has certainly acquired civil rights.

Again, I'm no expert, but prior to 7 months, I believe it starts getting dicey and prior to 5 months, a prematurely born baby has very little chance of survival, no matter what measures are taken. It seems logical then that at some point between 5 and 7 months, a fetus has acquired civil rights.

Response to badtoworse (Reply #1)

jmowreader

(50,559 posts)
16. They want to declare it a person the second the man asks the woman to "go upstairs"
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 10:41 PM
Jul 2013

And then they want to declare it a nonentity the second it starts breathing air.

phylny

(8,380 posts)
11. If I were younger, pregnant, and living in one of these states, I'd take a million dollar life
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 09:57 PM
Jul 2013

insurance policy out on my "person" right after I found out I was pregnant. Then, I'd sue the hell out of any insurance company that wouldn't insure my person. Because if it's person at conception, then legally, an insurance company would have to insure the life of that person, right?

See, I had a history of miscarriages....

 

Heather MC

(8,084 posts)
12. I am sorry to here that, but the GOP has an answer for that too
Sun Jul 21, 2013, 10:13 PM
Jul 2013

Criminalize women for mis-carriages
under their law you would be a serial killer and would not be allowed to profit from the criminal activity of multiple mis-carriages.

Half my girlfriends would be
in jail as well. with no children. some suffered three or four losses before carrying there babies to term.

The GOP is sick

 

LiberalEsto

(22,845 posts)
28. If a fetus is a person, and corporations are persons,
Mon Jul 22, 2013, 08:25 PM
Jul 2013

then I DEMAND that every corporate CEO undergo a mandatory anal ultrasound.

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